Adding a 4 blade instead of my 2 blade fan.

[old31]

Do you think a 4 blade will help?

I have a 6.0 head, larger intakes and a 4 speed. No t stat. I run a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and distilled water, and always filled to just over the baffle.

New engine with 1,000 miles. Radiator was brought to a shop and it checked out to be good.

Most of the time around town and some highway I will be about 180. Outside temp 75. I am worried what will happen at an outside temp of 90.

The problem seems to be highway driving 55-60 MPH for a sustained time of about 20 minutes or more. The temp will slowly go to 200, then 220 and remain at 220 while i am at 55-60 mph.

It has never boiled over. One time it went to 225 and that is when I took the back roads home vs the highway.

What are your thoughts on a 4 blade, or any other ideas.

[Patrick L.]

Can't say whether one is better than the other. I've run a 4 blade on a stocker for 40 years with no issues.

[Tacoma Bob]

Many dispute the airflow between the two. Two blade seems to be the way to go from prior dialog here. I use the plastic fan with no issues. your results may very. LOL

[frank55a]

You did not say what year A you have or if you have some type if obstruction in front of the radiator. If you have a 28/29 they seem to run a little hotter than the 30/31 due to being a little less capacity. If you have a license plate of some other type of obstruction in front of the radiator this will reduce the air flow and also cause it to run hotter.

Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level and you say the temp goes to 220 and stays there, are you sure your instrument is calibrated and working properly.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by old31

Do you think a 4 blade will help?

I have a 6.0 head, larger intakes and a 4 speed. No t stat. I run a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and distilled water, and always filled to just over the baffle.

New engine with 1,000 miles. Radiator was brought to a shop and it checked out to be good.

Most of the time around town and some highway I will be about 180. Outside temp 75. I am worried what will happen at an outside temp of 90.

The problem seems to be highway driving 55-60 MPH for a sustained time of about 20 minutes or more. The temp will slowly go to 200, then 220 and remain at 220 while i am at 55-60 mph.

It has never boiled over. One time it went to 225 and that is when I took the back roads home vs the highway.

What are your thoughts on a 4 blade, or any other ideas.

From reading what you say is happening, first thing that I have to ask, is are you loosing water and have to add water....at ANY time, and especially after a 220 event ?

[Big hammer]

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At 55-60 mph how much more air flow do you need! How was the radiator checked, a guess you have clogged tubes in the radiator. Also could be a timing issue.

[CHuDWah]

The fan is most efficient at low speed - at highway speed, it doesn't help much. If you're not losing coolant and are sure there is no obstruction to coolant circulation and airflow, I'd suspect the temp gauge.

[Marshall V. Daut]

I have 4 four-blade fans I removed from water pumps to replace with aluminum two-blade fans. I will sell each for $10 plus shipping.
Marshall

[Purdy Swoft]

The repro aluminum original look alike fan would be your best bet. More fan blades are not going to help cooling at driving speeds . The fan is only needed at idle and low speeds . I would get rid of the 50//50 antifreeze and only use antifreeze in winter . Antifreeze raises the boiling point to way above 212 degrees but doesn't cause an unpressurized cooling system to run cooler . I run tap water in mine for over 50 years with good results . Water cools way better than a fifty fifty antifreezw and water mix . If you are worried about rust, run a small bottle of water pump lubricant in the radiator . Water pump lubricant will lubricate the water pump and coat the system with enough soluable oil to help prevent rust. Ford recommended full advance at speed . Fifty five and sixty MPH is probably above what was considered speed in the model A day. Running at speed with the spark lever half way up the quadrant for much distance will cause over heating . One hundred and ninety drees was considered running in the danger zone for the model A . I prefer mine not to run much over one hundresd and sixty five degrees. I've had good luck with my model A running in this manner fore most of my life . Good luck with yours .

[CarlG]

Anything over 35mph, you don't even need a fan. Personally, I use the 6-blade plastic fan, just because the 4-blade fan I had lost a couple of it's rivets and took out a perfectly good radiator.

[PC/SR]

Agree a fan not needed at highway speeds, it actually gets in the way and robs HP. Retarded timing will also cause an engine to run hot. Check how much advance you use. Maybe try a little more. Check the head/block for rust.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

You can put some water wetter in, and will drop the temp a bit, but something is not right, and you’d be better off finding out what. It has to be your gauge is wrong,the radiator or block isn’t cleaned properly, timing is off, or you have an exhaust leak into the water jacket.

[GerryAllen]

I have just started to use Water Wetter with straight water in my radiator.
Should I be adding an additive for the water pump lubrication.?


Gerry, Birch Bay Wa

[Purdy Swoft]

Adding water pump lubricant will probably not run quiet as cool as pure water but it will remove any squeaks from a leakless water pump and oil fights rust . I used straight tap water in summer for many years with no ill effects that I was aware of. When I started rebuilding my water pumps as leak proof , the seals would sometimes squeak , similar to a fan belt squeak , so I tried the soluable oil and it worked to stop the squeak for me . They tell me the water pump lubricant is good for the cooling system . I ' found the lubricant at Auto zone for a little over five dollars , It is less in quantity than half of a pint. Any good parts house should have it .

[holdover]

here is where I would start. Drain the water/AF out of the system, if it is relatively new save it. Disconnect the upper and lower hose from the radiator, then with someone helping you block off the lower outlet with your hand and the top one also. Have your helper fill the radiator to full, them release your hand from the lower outlet. Should take about 4 seconds to empty, much longer then you have a clog problem. If it drains around 4 seconds move to the next item, such as a block water passage flush etc. I do not think a 4 blade fan is going to solve your problem. maybe try removing the license plate first to see if that helps, then a change of water pump. At road speed the fan is not much of a player, tell us what worked and good luck

[tinman080]

If your radiator tubes have a mineral buildup, and they probably do- a rodding out by a reputable radiator repair shop is your best bet. A radiator can flow water but not transfer heat due to calcium buildup coating the inner tubes. A vinegar fill and flush might help somewhat but then might not if the buildup is too far along.

[old31]

OK, it is agreed i will keep my new 2 blade aluminum fan.

Frank, it is a 31 with a plate in the front. I thought of removing the plate as a test. Before installing the gauge i tested it on the stove and it was good. That could have changed. I will test again.

Hard, I am not losing any water. Maybe 1 quart in a 100 mile run.

Big/PC, maybe its a timing issue. I run with a max of 21 degrees due to the 6.0 head. I read somewhere that any more than 21 will hurt the engine. No clue if that is true or not. I would love to hear more input on this subject of 21 degrees.

Purdy, I will change to water only. Way cheaper too. I am using a new leakproof water pump.

Hold, I will try your 4 second trick.

[HDowse]

I think Tinman080 has it figured out. The radiator may test well but if it hasn't been rodded out it does have mineral buildup. I tried all the suggestions above and finally bit the bullet and had a new radiator core installed. It solved everything so well that I eventually installed a thermostat to make sure the water temp was high enough on long drives.

[Mike]

Buy a Bergs radiator, you will not be sorry.
mike
bergs - 618-231-3507

[figment]

If you are running only clear water you should use a water pump lubricant and rust inhibiter otherwise you will have a lot of rust in your clooling system . Usually the rust inhibitor and water pump conditioner are in the same can . Norm

[eagle]

If your cooling system is in good condition, 50/50 mix will work just fine for ALL weather. The last thing you want is rust or corrosion.

[katy]

Before installing the gauge i tested it on the stove and it was good.

Compare engine temperatures w/an IR against what your gauge is saying.

[Roger V]

Understand in some company's test that water runs thirty degrees cooler than 50-50. I use (distilled) with Prestone or Peak rust inhibitor (has water pump lube). Like already mentioned a four blade isn't needed if all else is good. Supposedly, it causes more drag on the engine needlessly using up some horsepower. In your case it would add to the heat build-up. Agree that you don't even need a fan beyond low speeds. Usually, the radiator is the cause for overheating so rechecking is good advice. Since your engine isn't broken in yet, running 55-60 likely would be hard on it and add to the running temperature.

[jrelliott]

If you are running Tap water, hope it is reasonably soft as if you live where there is much calcium in the water, you will have to have the radiator cleaned out after a while due to deposits. Had radiator problems many years ago and the radiator repair man said, "You mixed your anti-freeze with tap water as I can see the deposits. Mix with distilled water and will never see me again." Lived in Tucson at the time. Water here in Pine is relatively hard and have a softener.

[Davew]

I agree with the ir temp gun. found mine wasn't running as hot as indicated..not sure of quality of current temp gauges.

[duke36]

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Not sure mentioned but the 4 blade fans are heavy and can stress the pump bearings if not balanced properly. We've used the 2 blade alum repro's on a number of cars and they can be balanced with a v block held in a vise by grinding off a little material which we never found to be needed.

[Corley]

I think you can run more advance than 21 degrees. I'm running 34 degrees right now at cruise, but it drops back to 24 degrees when under load when the vacuum advance drops out. ( I have a 6.1 cr.) Since you don't have vacuum advance, you should probably get by fine with 24-26 degrees with that cr. By all means, if you detect any pre-ignition, back off on advance to avoid damage.

But, that's just my personal opinion. I know others will disagree.

[WHN]

Are you using a thermostat?

[old31]

Corey, I will add an additional 4 degrees and see how it sounds.

WHN, no T stat.

[Del in NE Ohio]

Back flush or rod out the radiator. Tubes likely plugged. Fan is not issue. Relatively new motor, so shouldn't be necessary to back flush block.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by WHN

Are you using a thermostat?

I read your post again an see you don’t have a thermostat.

There have been a number of good ideas given here.

We have done the same thing on our cars and never had one that overheated or ran hot.

Engine side pans, leak less water pump, “New” correct radiator. Takes spending maybe more than some people would want but assuming a correctly timed and running engine. Solves temperature problems.

You should be running around 165 to 170 degrees. At 220 plus degrees, you could have oil flash on cylinder walls, you most likely have boiling in block with no coolant on some internal surfaces. Just steam. Engine failure could be next.

[Purdy Swoft]

Some need to understand that what works for the modern car doesn't always apply to the model A ...

[Corley]

Originally Posted by old31

Corley, I will add an additional 4 degrees and see how it sounds.

WARNING:


Since it seems you have adjusted/limited your FSIs total advance to 21 degrees (I think from what you have written), and now you are going to try advancing it a bit, please be careful. The reason for setting initial timing at zero degrees is that if advanced beyond that, hand cranking can result in broken arms, and starters can end up with bent shafts. If you don't plan to hand crank it EVER, then you can get away with 4-5 degrees initial advance, the starter can handle that, but no more than that. If you will ever be cranking it, then zero is it, and you need to adjust your stop in the FSI centrifugal advance so you can get zero initial, and about 25 degrees at 2k rpms. Make no mistake, FSI dizzies can be a balancing act. This is why I like a vacuum advance.

[PC/SR]

Not sure how you have your timing set up. If you have a stock FSI, total advance range is about 32 degrees. If you have adjusted the timing so that max advance is 21 degrees BTDC, the initial setting will be about 10 degrees retarded. At what rpm does the FSI reach the 21 degrees ? Same issue would apply, but not as bad, with max timing at 25 degrees. Could be you are running retarded all the way up. FSI used to have lighter tensioned springs (might still sell them) so the advance comes sooner. As Corley says, FSI's are a balancing act particularly with a HC head and any other mods. If you can find anyone with the old Sun distributor machine, talk to them and play with the settings.

However, I also agree with the suggestions of rodding out the radiator.

[old31]

I do not have an FSI distributor. I am running points only with an a and L condenser.

Could someone explain as to how or why this happens? After retesting the timing I put the pin in and with the nurex gauge it was at zero and the pin went in. That is what I would expect to happen. When I started up the car and the left quadrant all the way up the timing gun showed 10° At idle at 400 RPM Why 10°, why wouldn’t it show zero if I just put the pin in and didn’t touch anything.


I have readjusted my stop on the quadrant so now with it down I am at 25° versus my old 21°.


So back to the issue of zero with the pin in and the timing gun showing 10° at idle

[frank55a]

There is a time delay in the primary to secondary ignition circuits. Specifically, with the ignition switch on and the points closed there is a magnetic field established in the coil.
When the points are opened the field collapses and the magnetic flux cuts thru the wires of the secondary winding of the coil thereby inducing the spark. This spark must travel from the coil, jump the gaps of the rotor and plug to reach ground. Per a NAPA ignition training manual this time delay to induce the spark and the spark to travel to ground is typically 0.002 seconds but this time delay may vary slightly based on operating voltage 12V or 6V, length of leads, etc. This time delay however is consent for any given system. So with the engine stopped and the pin in with the cylinder at TDC, then if idling at 400 RPM how far past TDC did the crank move in 0.002 seconds? When you figure this out then figure how far past TDC the crank moved at 1000 RPM and 2000 RPM. When you figure that out you will have part of the answer as to why you advance the spark when increasing speed and retard when slowing down.

[cpf240]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that when the timing pin is in the recess in the timing gear, the #1 piston is not actually at TDC.


In addition, I've also read that if one has a B timing cover, the pin will be in a slightly different position, changing the timing if used on an A.

[ursus]

Originally Posted by Corley

WARNING:


Since it seems you have adjusted/limited your FSIs total advance to 21 degrees (I think from what you have written), and now you are going to try advancing it a bit, please be careful. The reason for setting initial timing at zero degrees is that if advanced beyond that, hand cranking can result in broken arms, and starters can end up with bent shafts. If you don't plan to hand crank it EVER, then you can get away with 4-5 degrees initial advance, the starter can handle that, but no more than that. If you will ever be cranking it, then zero is it, and you need to adjust your stop in the FSI centrifugal advance so you can get zero initial, and about 25 degrees at 2k rpms. Make no mistake, FSI dizzies can be a balancing act. This is why I like a vacuum advance.

The Model B engine is timed at 19 degrees of initial advance and I have never heard of a damaged starter resulting from that. I have also seen them started with a hand crank and no injuries resulted.

[Chris Haynes]

I run a 4 blade fan. Pressurized radiator filled with Waterless Coolant. Crawling in a parade or running down the freeway my temperature gauge never goes out of operating range.

[old31]

CP, I have verified that when the pin goes in I am at TDC. I have one of those small cameras hooked up to my phone so i can see what is going on in the #1 cylinder while cranking and the pin drops in.

Frank, I really need help on your explanation. For me this would be timing and electrical for dummies 101.

When at idle at 400 and the lever is up, the timing gun shows 10 degrees advanced. At 1000 rpm or 2000 rpm the gun still shows 10 degrees advanced if i do not touch the lever. If i move the lever all the way down to my stop i get 25 degrees.

So, my question-issue-is: Shouldn't the gun be reading zero at idle with the lever up, instead of 10 degrees advanced? Especially with the pin just inserted at TDC and it is at zero..

This is the gauge that i am using.

https://www.brattons.com/ignition-ti...ator-only.html

[Benson]

My guess is that your timing light offset DIAL on rear of timing light might be set for 10 degrees advanced.

I tried to post photo but can not make it work.

Originally Posted by old31

CP, I have verified that when the pin goes in I am at TDC. I have one of those small cameras hooked up to my phone so i can see what is going on in the #1 cylinder while cranking and the pin drops in.

Frank, I really need help on your explanation. For me this would be timing and electrical for dummies 101.

When at idle at 400 and the lever is up, the timing gun shows 10 degrees advanced. At 1000 rpm or 2000 rpm the gun still shows 10 degrees advanced if i do not touch the lever. If i move the lever all the way down to my stop i get 25 degrees.

So, my question-issue-is: Shouldn't the gun be reading zero at idle with the lever up, instead of 10 degrees advanced? Especially with the pin just inserted at TDC and it is at zero..

This is the gauge that i am using.

https://www.brattons.com/ignition-ti...ator-only.html

[Benson]

Not likely but I suppose that the front crank pulley could have shifted if it is a two piece pulley, if notch in pulley is wider than notch in sleeve on crankshaft!

THis could move your timing mark on the pulley ...

[frank55a]

Originally Posted by old31

Frank, I really need help on your explanation. For me this would be timing and electrical for dummies 101.

As stated, there is a given delay in time in the primary to secondary ignition circuits in order to induce the secondary current flow to ground via the spark plug. This is basic electrical theory, the magnetic flux created in the coil's primary winding will collapse when the points open stopping the current flow in the primary circuit thereby inducing a current flow in the secondary high enough to jump the gaps to ground causing the spark at the plug to ignite the fuel air mixture. How it goes from 6V to several thousand volts is due to many more windings in the secondary. While approximately 0.002 seconds is very short if you do the math you can see there is considerable movement of the crank past TDC as the RPM increases.

Example: If the points were set to open at TDC what is the position of the crank when the spark ignites the fuel mixture in the cylinder at 400 RPM and 1000 RPM?

• Idling at 400 RPM how far does the crankshaft move past TDC in 0.002 seconds?
360 degrees x 400 RPM = 144,000 degrees/60 sec = 2400 degrees per sec/1000 = 2.4 degrees x 2 = 4.8 degrees The crank is 4.8 degrees past TDC when the fuel is ignited.
• 1000 RPM = How far does the crankshaft move past TDC in 0.002 seconds? 4.8 degrees x 1000/400 = 12 degrees The crank is 12 degrees past TDC when the fuel is ignited.

In conclusion: With the engine stopped (0 RPM) the crank at TDC you should read or assume "0" degrees. However, with the engine running and the timing light leads connected (depending on where they are connected) the crank will not be at "0" when the light flashes.

This is not new. This idea was well known quite a number of years prior to the Model A. While the A had a manual advance, other cars had some type of mechanical advance, then as the years pasted vacuum advance was introduced and now it is controlled by computers but the principal is the same.

[old31]

Yesterday I went for a 100 mile drive mostly at 55 MPH, outside temp was 85.

With the removed 50/50 mix and added 3 degrees the engine temps remained about the same. On the way home I removed the front license plate and that helped a little bit on dropping the engine temps.

Benson, I have a digital timing light. The 10 degree mark on the timing indicator has no bearing as to where I set the light. I can set the gun anywhere from 0-99 and it still shows 10 degrees on the engine timing indicator. So, bad wording on my part when i say "the gun shows 10 degrees" It just happens to show 10 degrees on the timing indicator after i put the pin in at TDC.

Katy, I will bring my IR gun on the next ride and use it on a run.

I am starting to lean to the radiator not being able to handle the heat at higher RPM's. Many have suggested that I rod out the radiator. What is the difference in cost of rodding vs a new radiator? Wouldnt it be less of a hassle just to install a new radiator?

Again, I did bring this radiator to a shop and he did say it was very good.

[WHN]

I’ll say it again, new correct radiator, engine side pans, new leak less water pump, and new aluminum two blade correct style fan.

I would not drive car at the operating temperatures you have talked about. Your cooling system is failing. Needs complete overhaul.

Fix it right the first time. Enjoy.

[katy]

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When you have the IR gun handy, the engine running, check the inlet and outlet temperatures of the radiator to see how much temperature differential there is. You can also move the IR across the front of the radiator to see how even the cooling (or lack of) is.
A radiator can look good, flow test good, but still not cool properly due to scaling inside, or the fins being loose on the tubes.
BTW, has the radiator been painted? If so, what kind of paint? Radiators require a special kind of paint for heat dissipation.