Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block

[corvette8n]

After watching this I think they could.
https://youtu.be/ckbpq6OoiEY

[JSeery]

The castings in the video are fairly simple castings compared to a flathead block. A flathead is a very difficult cast. I am sure they (are a lot of others) could do it if they wanted to extend the effort, but it would be very difficult to be cost effective!

During my high school years I worked at a foundry. I would shift weights during the pours and also the clean up after the pours. The guy at the belt sanding the casting brought back memories!

[rockfla]

With the 3D printers of today and watching how easy it is to make the molds and then make sand castings of them I think it would be fairly EASY to recast flat head blocks. NOW from the financial feasibility aspect I don't know if the cost/profit is or would be worth it. Watching Ferrari cast their block on the lastest "How it's made" (I know its in condensed form) but still very easy and quick process.

[Ol' Ron]

I've often thought of this, and I really don't think it would be much trouble. There are very accurate blueprints of the block. You could even upgrade some of the weak areas. Using computer generated tooling and CNC machining, I'm sure that you could have a much better block made form a better material. I would have Caterpillar do the casting as they have a modern foundry and do allot of NASCAR work. Now if you had a large quantity done you could bring the cost down to a very reasonable price, say 5 to 8 grand apiece.

[JSeery]

It's been tried recently and didn't pan out.

http://www.motorcityspeedequipment.c...ge_id=newblock

[Kahuna]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Yeah, J
I've often wondered what happened to the "pan"?
Jim

[JWL]

It would not be easy even with modern 3-D printing. One of the biggest jobs would be interpreting and loading all the dimensional characteristics. Something has to tell the printer what to print and where to print it. Too, making the cores and molds would not be a job for the average enthusiast. There are pictures of some of this(casting cores) but I don't remember where I saw them?

Our friend Flat32 could give us the most competent response and appraisal as to the problems involved. Like most jobs, after it is done it wouldn't look like a big deal.

[topfuel724]

John Rodeck was able to duplicate a "392" Chrysler block that was in Forged Aluminum for me in 2001 and I thought the cost was very reasonable. I know that the flathead might be more difficult to do but I thought I had seen that someone had or was making them in aluminum now.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I've often thought of this, and I really don't think it would be much trouble. There are very accurate blueprints of the block. You could even upgrade some of the weak areas. Using computer generated tooling and CNC machining, I'm sure that you could have a much better block made form a better material. I would have Caterpillar do the casting as they have a modern foundry and do allot of NASCAR work. Now if you had a large quantity done you could bring the cost down to a very reasonable price, say 5 to 8 grand apiece.

And where can I obtain a set of these drawings?? I keep getting pointed into a direction, then come up empty handed
I have considered casting a full scale flathead block more than once. Its not the casting that I see as a problem. It is the expense of machining the casting.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by topfuel724

John Rodeck was able to duplicate a "392" Chrysler block that was in Forged Aluminum for me in 2001 and I thought the cost was very reasonable. I know that the flathead might be more difficult to do but I thought I had seen that someone had or was making them in aluminum now.

See the link I posted in #5. There were some proto types built I believe, but the project was dropped.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

And where can I obtain a set of these drawings?? I keep getting pointed into a direction, then come up empty handed
I have considered casting a full scale flathead block more than once. Its not the casting that I see as a problem. It is the expense of machining the casting.

See the link in post #5, they claimed to have the CAD drawings and proto-types.

Newly Engineered Flathead Block

Through a combined effort of Motor City and Shadow Rods it’s finally here. A new state of the art Flathead Engine block. Due to health problems back in 2002 I was forced to close shop and pass the ball to Jon Hall, founder and president of Shadow Rods.

Any one that knows Jon knows that he is a perfectionist to the utmost degree. That makes him the perfect candidate to do this project.

First let’s ask- why do a new Flathead Block? Answer: They are just getting too hard to find. On an average you can easily go though 3 or 4 blocks just to find a good one. That can mean endless hours of research just to find one. Purchase it for $100 to $500 just to spend a week taking it apart only to find out the block is cracked or rusted through from the inside out.

Some of the other problems are over heating, oil consumption, excessive crank case pressure, and oil leaking due to bad gaskets and especially bad front and rear main oil seals.

Other draw backs are due to a poor design which include lack of lower end strength due to only 3 main bearings, and insufficient horse power and torque due to poor ports and valve sizing resulting in a very inefficient motor. And last but not least small bores resulting in small cubic inches (STD 239 cu in.)

To do a block and not answer those questions would be a sin, so our new block is most importantly new. Absolutely no inside rust, no trapped or hidden core sand that can be a cause of over heating.

This new motor is designed for modern lip seals (no more leaking). It has heavy duty main caps including a 4 bolt center made out of ductile iron, eliminating any lower end strength concerns. Valve guides permanently pressed into the block drastically reducing oil consumption and assuring a good valve job.

The ports on this new motor were developed by Paul Schalk (Doctor Flow) on the flow bench. The results were incorporated into the new casting eliminating any need to port and polish.

A redesigned oiling system allowing you to run an oil filtration system with out a special pump or hose inside the oil pan.

And finally at last a big bore. 3 ½ (3.500”) finish bore size from the original 221 cubic inch that had a bore size of 3 1/16 (3.062”). That is a 7/16 (.437”) increase giving you with a stock crank 3 ¾ (3.750”) stroke 289 cubic inches with a 4” stroke 305 4 1/8” stroke 316 cu in, 4 ¼” 327, 4 3/8” 339. That is pretty dog gone significant.

DON'T ANYONE GET EXCITED, THIS ALL WENT BELLY UP SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

[aonemarine]

But I doubt they would be willing to share them.....

[flatheadmurre]

First making the mold and cores with correct sizes and taking into equation that it will shrink when cooling....
Then its correct material quality and pooring it without to much rejects.
Not an easy job believe me !
Its much easier to cast aluminum then cast iron.
Making core boxes and stuff is needed for a descent cost if going for even low series.
3D printing is for small stuff and one of.

[sidevalve8ba]

Originally Posted by JSeery

See the link in post #5, they claimed to have the CAD drawings and proto-types.

Newly Engineered Flathead Block

Through a combined effort of Motor City and Shadow Rods it’s finally here. A new state of the art Flathead Engine block. Due to health problems back in 2002 I was forced to close shop and pass the ball to Jon Hall, founder and president of Shadow Rods.

Any one that knows Jon knows that he is a perfectionist to the utmost degree. That makes him the perfect candidate to do this project.

First let’s ask- why do a new Flathead Block? Answer: They are just getting too hard to find. On an average you can easily go though 3 or 4 blocks just to find a good one. That can mean endless hours of research just to find one. Purchase it for $100 to $500 just to spend a week taking it apart only to find out the block is cracked or rusted through from the inside out.

Some of the other problems are over heating, oil consumption, excessive crank case pressure, and oil leaking due to bad gaskets and especially bad front and rear main oil seals.

Other draw backs are due to a poor design which include lack of lower end strength due to only 3 main bearings, and insufficient horse power and torque due to poor ports and valve sizing resulting in a very inefficient motor. And last but not least small bores resulting in small cubic inches (STD 239 cu in.)

To do a block and not answer those questions would be a sin, so our new block is most importantly new. Absolutely no inside rust, no trapped or hidden core sand that can be a cause of over heating.

This new motor is designed for modern lip seals (no more leaking). It has heavy duty main caps including a 4 bolt center made out of ductile iron, eliminating any lower end strength concerns. Valve guides permanently pressed into the block drastically reducing oil consumption and assuring a good valve job.

The ports on this new motor were developed by Paul Schalk (Doctor Flow) on the flow bench. The results were incorporated into the new casting eliminating any need to port and polish.

A redesigned oiling system allowing you to run an oil filtration system with out a special pump or hose inside the oil pan.

And finally at last a big bore. 3 ½ (3.500”) finish bore size from the original 221 cubic inch that had a bore size of 3 1/16 (3.062”). That is a 7/16 (.437”) increase giving you with a stock crank 3 ¾ (3.750”) stroke 289 cubic inches with a 4” stroke 305 4 1/8” stroke 316 cu in, 4 ¼” 327, 4 3/8” 339. That is pretty dog gone significant.

DON'T ANYONE GET EXCITED, THIS ALL WENT BELLY UP SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

I understand they had a running engine at one time and even had it in a car and were putting some miles on it. I wonder what the downfall was? Can anyone shed any light on this?

Ted

[JSeery]

If anyone is interested in more reading and how far this got:

http://www.hotrod.com/news/0603sr-fo...thead-rebirth/

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...-just-wont-die

http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus...d/1281426.html

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...athead.966947/

http://vintagemotorsusa.org/AluminumFlathead.html

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

First making the mold and cores with correct sizes and taking into equation that it will shrink when cooling....
Then its correct material quality and pooring it without to much rejects.
Not an easy job believe me !
Its much easier to cast aluminum then cast iron.
Making core boxes and stuff is needed for a descent cost if going for even low series.
3D printing is for small stuff and one of.

One of....Ill agree with that for any production runs then suitable tooling should be produced.
But I will argue that 3d printing is NOT only for small stuff... and that aluminum does not necessarily make things easier. Sometimes it wil open up a whole nuther can of worms....

[rockfla]

Not to beat a dead horse or be contrary
And again IF you watch the process that Ferrari uses today to cast new (and old) engines, it would be very easy to do especially if a CAD drawing exist on a computer. NOW ,the cost to have such equipment OR the wide spread usage of such equipment may be a different story. AGAIN, Ferrari went from a CAD design to a 3D printing of the block (in some form of low heat plastic, then poured a harder higher heat tolerant molding wax in the 3D block for a negative of the block, Then melted out the 3D printed block, then did sand cast molds of the negative and cast the blocks. VERY simple and done primarily by computer and 3D printing (OR Negative 3D printing) and a 3D sand casting mold machine. Watch "How Its Made" supercar series. VERY slick operation. AN within this operation one would think that within the CAD program you could MAYBE make improvements to the original block with respect to thicknesses and such.

[JSeery]

Not sure we're keeping in mind the complexity of a flathead block compared to a modern block. If it was all that easy the folks that already have the drawings, the molds and the proto-type engines would be producing them.

[flatheadmurre]

Aluminum has its issues to but it aint close to cast iron in being sensitive to built in tension and cracking from that.
Cast iron with an odd shape (not uniform in thickness and shape) will cool unevenly and even if you put nickel and other alloys in, it will be a challenge.
To take on a project like casting a flathead block is a deep black hole that will eat you time and money for a long long time....i can just admire the people willing to do something like this.
Problem with making a better flathead block is that it will never be allowed in classic racing, so there´s another set of tooling to go authentic and improved.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by rockfla

Not to beat a dead horse or be contrary
And again IF you watch the process that Ferrari uses today to cast new (and old) engines, it would be very easy to do especially if a CAD drawing exist on a computer. NOW ,the cost to have such equipment OR the wide spread usage of such equipment may be a different story. AGAIN, Ferrari went from a CAD design to a 3D printing of the block (in some form of low heat plastic, then poured a harder higher heat tolerant molding wax in the 3D block for a negative of the block, Then melted out the 3D printed block, then did sand cast molds of the negative and cast the blocks. VERY simple and done primarily by computer and 3D printing (OR Negative 3D printing) and a 3D sand casting mold machine. Watch "How Its Made" supercar series. VERY slick operation. AN within this operation one would think that within the CAD program you could MAYBE make improvements to the original block with respect to thicknesses and such.

To make a lost waxmold the size of a flathead block and get all out of it isn´t easy...
3D printing it in PLA and then heating it up enough to make it burn up is more likely to work.
Cores are made differently and chemicals are added to make it cure and be tuffer then the rest of the mold and you use steel wire to keep it in place.
How do you hang the cores in a lost waxmold ??
Its not as easy as it can look at first sight.