1955 ford station wagon with a V8 302 Engine.

[poolplayer1]

Good morning everybody here at the forum. I wanted to see if some of you may have an idea as to what may be the problem with my 55.
Here is the problem: I took it for a drive on sunday and after cruising along for about 30 minutes,I heard a loud noise so after a few seconds,I moved over to the side of the street to see what the problem was.After raising the hood,I noticed that the bottom radiator hose busted right in the middle and water was just coming off the radiator.I called my son and he brought me a new hose. I installed the hose,refilled the radiator with coolant,and drove home.I wanted to make sure that the engine had not over heated but it was ok.It was a few seconds after the hose busted that I shut the engine down.
Ok, Yesterday,I went for a drive again and it drove really nice for awhile and than while going down the road,the engine started to act like it was running out of gas and than just shut off.I had plenty of fuel so it was not that.It was not overheated eighter.I have a nice under dash gauge. I waited for 15 minutes and it started right up.I drove for about a mile,and it did the same thing,like starving for gas. It has never done this before.What do you guys think? vapor Lock? I checked the pressure on the fuel pump this morning and it has 8.5 psi. I think 4 to 6 psi is normal for this engine. Thanks for any and all the help or ideas that you may have.
Mando

[scicala]

Regarding the loud noise and lower radiator hose cut in half, are you sure you didn't throw one of the blades off of the fan ?


As far as it acting like it's running out of gas, that could be vapor lock especially if hot weather and/or the ignition timing isn't advancing (causes high exhaust temps).
When it happens, check to see if there is fuel in the carb. If not, that's probably vapor lock. Could also be a bad condenser or coil.

Sal

[scicala]

Also, 8.5 psi fuel pressure is too much for a carbureted engine. Asking for trouble.


Sal

[poolplayer1]

Thanks for your reply. The fan is ok,no problem there at all. Do you think that maybe the coil is overheating and causing the engine to shut off?
Do you know of any test that I can make to check the coil out?
That's what I thought too when I read 8.5 psi coming off the fuel pump.
But at the same time,wouln't you think that if the pump was putting out too much,the carberator would be flooding?
What can be done for vapor lock on this motor?
The pump is only $22.00.I might just replace it anyway.
Mando

[streetdreams]

You may have a restricted filter screen in the tank.

[50fordcoupeman]

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Can't address the rad hose but my 302 acted like what you are describing..........turned out to be the coil. Good luck!!

[paul2748]

I would suggest a bad coil or a bad condenser - did you change the condenser lately? Lot of bad ones out there - chinese junk. When they get hot they fail.

[56 ranch]

I had a similar problem with my 302. It turned out to be the ford electronic ignition. Replaced it with am MSD distributor. Problem solved

[poolplayer1]

Thanks guys for all your suggestions.This 302 has a mechanical fuel pump so no filter screen in the fuel tank.I checked with my multimeter the primary and secondary of the coil.Primary reads 2 ohms and sec. reads 7K,which is normal for a coil.I have not replaced the condenser but will do so this morning.This engine uses the old style points,rotor,and condenser so no electronic ignition. Anymore ideas will be welcomed.In the mean time,I will stay with it this morning and see if I can find the problem. PS There is a ballast resistor in the primary circuit of the coil and it checks ok.
Mando

[50fordcoupeman]

Did you check the coil when the engine is hot and acting up? Mine ran perfectly until it was warmed up. Coils can break down when they get hot.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

. . . There is a ballast resistor in the primary circuit of the coil and it checks ok.

This older one was intermittent when it warmed up, due to moderate corrosion of the rivets.
I replaced it with a new one but soldered the rivets at both ends (to keep as a spare, because I could) and it works now.

[poolplayer1]

I checked the coil when it was cold but glad you mentioned that the coil may be acting up when hot.I will run it here at my shop tomorrow morning and after about 15 minutes or so after the coil is hot,I will check windings to see if there is any change.
I replaced the condenser this morning. Another thing I found was that the fuel line just before going to the carberator,was right against the heater hose which gets really hot.
I moved it away this morning.This might of caused the fuel to vaporize and thus kill the engine. I'll check tomorrow some more things.I'm hoping to have it ready by this Saturday.Its really hot weather here so have to make sure that the fuel lines are isolated from any heat off the engine.
Thanks again for your suggestions and ideas.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

Ok Guys, I have a new coil,a new condenser,new fuel filter. I isolated the section of fuel line that comes from the fuel pump to the carberator to make sure the line is not getting over heated and causing a vapor lock. Now,I was thinking of taking it out for a test drive tomorrow morning but kind of worry that it will die on me again and than have to haul it back home,not a joy at all. What can I do at home to test it really good to see if its ready for the road.Should I just let it run for a while and see if it will die down.At the same time, if I let it idle too long,isn't that going to cause it to over heat? Need some suggestions on how to test run the car here rather than on the road and get stranded. Thanks to everyone for your help.
Mando

[50fordcoupeman]

I had to drive mine 7 or 8 miles to get enough heat to cause coil to fail. Don't how your streets are laid out where you live but you have to drive it long enough to be convinced it is fixed or not. Maybe let it idle in driveway to warm it up before you go?? My 302 could idle all day in the driveway and not overheat.

[poolplayer1]

Thank you very much for your reply. I am going to let it idle here at home for about 20 minutes and see if it eighter gets hot or engine quits,which is the problem I had before.
Hopefully I have the problem corrected so that I can go for a cruise tomorrow.
Mando

[reman]

If it stops again, take the fuel line loose from the carb. The carb inlet has a small screen inside that can clog up. If I remember correctly there is also a small filter at the tank where the line enters. Either of these can run fine for a few minutes then accumulate enough junk to clog the fuel flow.

[ffr1222k]

In 1967 while in high school i drove home from my second shift factory job 1/4 mile at a time. My symptoms were the same as yours. My problem was a bad hose between the steel fuel line and the fuel pump. It did not leak but the pump sucked air. After it sat the pressure would equalize and the pump would be able to supply fuel again for a few hundred feet.

That took a long time to get home.

[Motorhead6]

Originally Posted by ffr1222k

In 1967 while in high school i drove home from my second shift factory job 1/4 mile at a time. My symptoms were the same as yours. My problem was a bad hose between the steel fuel line and the fuel pump. It did not leak but the pump sucked air. After it sat the pressure would equalize and the pump would be able to supply fuel again for a few hundred feet.

That took a long time to get home.

Had a problem like that with an FE engine. Drove me crazy for 2 years. Changed FP and went through the electronics over and over. Finally the fuel line from the hard line to the fuel pump began leaking. The problem was that the line had a very small leak and did not leak gas but allowed the FP to suck air and then acted like a vapor lock. Replace the flex line; problem solved.

[50fordcoupeman]

Mando..............any new news on the wagon??

[poolplayer1]

Hello friends.
I had decided to replace the piece of fuel line that goes from the carb. to the fuel pump.
It looked pretty bad.The problem was that I had to order the part since nobody locally had it or could order it. It came in this morning and I will install it tomorrow morning.
After that,I will take it for a test run and see if it still shuts off on me after running a few miles.Hopefully not cause its too hot around here to have problems on the road.
Its going to be 112 degrees here in AZ tomorrow.
I was thinking about just running it here at the house for about 30 minutes or so and see what happens. At idling,if the water temp. reaches 195 to 200,is that too hot?
Don't want to overheat the engine. Thanks to all.
Mando

[Lanny]

If it pukes out too much coolant, and you can't see any in the tank,
after it cools down, then it is running a little too hot.


If the coolant stays above the core by A LITTLE BIT, consistently,
then it should be alright.


It's the puking out of Too much coolant, that is the killer...










.

[KULTULZ]

The first two and a half minutes of this video will show heat percolation effect on fuel line delivery/pressure (on pressure side of mechanical fuel pump)-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cadNfSNi_Oc

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Guys for your help with this problem. That video is a good idea for me to test the fuel line and see if the fuel is vapor locking. I will do that test now and will let you know what happened.Also.will find out if its running too hot or not.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

I did not have a clear hose to put in line with the fuel pump and the carb.to see if there were any air bubbles after running the engine for 20 or 30 minutes but I did have a glass fuel filter to hook up in the fuel line to the carb.I ran the engine here at the house for 25 minutes and never saw any bubbles at all.I let the engine idle but would ocassionally rev up the engine to make sure it would not stall. It never stalled, had plenty of RPM when reving up the engine.I have an under dash temp.gauge and it did reach 200 degree but never showed any signs of overheating.After I shut off the engine,no coolant leaks anywhere and no coolant spilling out of the radiator.
After I shut the engine off,I tried retarting the engine and it started right up.
So, I think I have this wagon fixed ( at least I hope so.) I guess I won't really know for sure till I get it on the road to be sure.I will do that in a couple of days to find out.
I do have a new coil,new condender,new fuel line from the carb.to the fuel pump,new fuel filter and isolated the fuel line from any heat.
Am I able to post pictures of my 55 wagon here or is there a different area to do that.
Also,I need info on how to post the pixs to this site.
Mando

[KULTULZ]

Just a comment here-

Having an engine idle in the shop (especially with the hood open) will not allow the engine to come to full temp (unless there is a flow blockage somewhere).


It is akin to a tech measuring oil pressure drop on a running engine in the shop. Unless the vehicle is driven to allow the engine to fully heat, the results mat be skewed.

On the subject of clear hose, do not use fish tank style. There is hose available rated for gasoline and light pressure to make a test only hookup.

Personally, I have an old GM TBI fuel pressure tester (low pressure) that can be inserted into the supply line.

[poolplayer1]

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Thanks Kultulz,I appreciate your advice and opinions on this matter.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

Well,this morning I decided to test run my 55 wagon to see if it would still cutoff while going down the road and after driving 25 minutes,darn thing shut off on me again. It still feels like its running out of gas,so must be vapor lock. I have a new mechanical fuel pump,new coil,new condenser, new fuel filter,and isolated the fuel line from any heat.I can wait for 10 or so minutes and than it will start up again.I kind stayed within a few miles from home so that I would not have to tow it to the house,just waited a little bit till it started again and than drove it home. To me, eighter the fuel pump gets too hot or the carberator is getting to much heat from the intake,causing fuel to vaporize.A long time time ago I put in a spacer between the carb. and the intake but its a metal type spacer which I think is still letting the heat from the intake to get to the carb.or,heat from the engine block is making the fuel pump to run too hot.What do you guys think? I'm getting tired of having this car quit on me on the road,kind of embarrassing. Need some more help.Thanks to all of you here for your kindness.
Mando

[dmsfrr]

I have no proof that the phenolic plastic carb spacers work any better than the metal ones but it seems like it should, so I use one.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

Well,this morning I decided to test run my 55 wagon to see if it would still cutoff while going down the road and after driving 25 minutes,darn thing shut off on me again. It still feels like its running out of gas,so must be vapor lock. I have a new mechanical fuel pump,new coil,new condenser, new fuel filter,and isolated the fuel line from any heat.I can wait for 10 or so minutes and than it will start up again.I kind stayed within a few miles from home so that I would not have to tow it to the house,just waited a little bit till it started again and than drove it home.

To me, eighter the fuel pump gets too hot or the carberator is getting to much heat from the intake,causing fuel to vaporize.A long time time ago I put in a spacer between the carb. and the intake but its a metal type spacer which I think is still letting the heat from the intake to get to the carb.or,heat from the engine block is making the fuel pump to run too hot.What do you guys think? I'm getting tired of having this car quit on me on the road,kind of embarrassing. Need some more help.Thanks to all of you here for your kindness.


Mando

...whew ...

You understand the new fuel has a much lower boiling point than the old, correct?

One question. When the car stopped, did you remove the ACL and operate the accelerator pump to check for fuel delivery?

The phenolic spacer below the carb is good, but it works against hot shutdown fuel percolation in the carb mostly. There were available phenolic pump spacers at one time.

How did you insulate the fuel line? Do you have a thermometer to record engine bay heat with hood closed?

[poolplayer1]

Thanks guys for your reply. I insulated the fuel line with a heatshield sleeve that I got from summit racing.I don't have a thermometer but will get one soon.I did not check the carb.to see if it was receiving gas cause it was so darn hot in there. I really think the problem is the fuel pump getting too hot and causing the fuel to get vapor lock.
Summit has a phenolic fuel pump insulator that they say will keep the heat away from the pump.Don't know if it will work or not but for the price,I will get one.I'm 99% sure the problem is fuel related and not electrical related but do you think that a weak ignition ballast resistor can cause this problem? There is one mounted right on top of the coil and it reads 2.2 ohms. I would think that if that res.was bad,the engine would not start at all since it feeds the ignition ckt.in the distributor.
Talk to you guys later.
Mando

[scicala]

To rule out the ignition or not, I would have a timing light handy for when the engine dies and see if the ignition is firing with that. I have long cables on my timing light, and can actually close the hood on the cables and run them inside the passenger area.
This would at least say yes or no to it being ignition related.


Sal

[50fordcoupeman]

Not to keep harping on the coil but I went thru 4 coils from NAPA to get one that worked. Told them I wanted their best one and they said I was getting their best one. Theirs are China made which explains it all!! I was chasing problems that didn't exist because of cheap China crap.................

[poolplayer1]

Thanks 50 ford for your suggestion. I have a question for any of you that can help. This morning as I was going to check the carberator,I removed the air cleaner.This air cleaner has a rubber hose that goes to a breather cap that inserts into the valve cover.As I removed the hose from the small breather,I saw some water come out of that hose.Is this normal? Maybe condensation? Just wondering.Anyway,I'm going to see if I can find out why the engine quits on me after running it for about 20 to 30 minutes.
Mando

[50fordcoupeman]

The water is just probably condensation. I get a little out of mine too on short trips. Good luck as this to be driving you nuts!!

[poolplayer1]

Worked on it this morning here at the house.I started off by installing a glass type fuel filter inline with the carb.I than started up the engine and waited till the engine was nice and hot.At first while the engine was cool,the filter was full of gas.After about 15 minutes idling,the fuel in the filter went down to almost nothing.When this happened,i got my water hose and started to water down the fuel pump.As soon as I did this,the filter filled up with gas again.So, the fuel pump is getting too hot,loosing pressure and or causing vapor lock.I ordered a phenolic type fuel pump insulator to see if that my help. They say it will but not sure till I install it.The carb. already has one of this spacers.If this does not work,I guess the only other option I have is to put in a electric fuel pump.Don't want to do this but may have to if I want to correct and get rid of this problem that I have with this wagon.
Thanks for your reply.
Mando

[50fordcoupeman]

I have an electric fuel as a backup but use the mechanical for all my driving. It is mounted at the fuel tank but between the tank and the pump I have a shut off valve then a filter and then the pump.

[miker98038]

Based on your post #35, I’d be looking at the fuel pump and the line to it. I’ve had vapor lock problems on motor homes, but on long steep grades. Water, oil and trans pushing 230 degrees, and down to 30 mph. Turning on the electric pump typically stopped the vapor lock, so it was just right on the edge. Enough fuel pressure to really matter would have flooded the carb.

It’s hard to argue with water (cooling) on the pump solving the problem, but I don’t think that should be happening. Any chance the fuel line is close to the exhaust when close to the intake side of the pump, and you sprayed some water on it? Water carries away a lot of heat when it evaporates.

[KULTULZ]

Can you post some photos of the 302 install? Especially the fuel supply.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks guys for your help.Right now I have the fuel pump out cause I am waiting for the phenolic fuel pump insulator to come in.Should be here tomorrow or Thursday.As soon as I put it altogether,I will take pixs of the engine and the fuel line so that you guys can see how its routed.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

Wanted to tell you guys that the fuel pump heat insulator that I had ordered for my 302 that was having vapor lock problems came in late Friday.I installed it this morning,started the engine up and now the carberator is leaking gas.Its leaking from the little accelerator pump that's in front of the carb. This is a 2 barrel carter carb.
I never had any leaks at all,especially from the carb. It just started after I put in the fuel pump insulator.It seems to me that the insulator would cause a lack of fuel and not Too much fuel since the fuel pump lever is father away from the camshaft lobe.
But,it causing the carb. to receive too much fuel. Before I remove the insulator back out,is there anything else that might cause this problem? Man,if it isn't one thing,its another. Just can't get ahead of this wagon. Oh well,shi???????? happens.
Mando

[scicala]

Are you really sure it's a Carter two barrel ? Ford never used a Carter two barrel carb on any engines I'm aware of. Plus a Carter doesn't have the accelerator pump diaphragm in the front. It's an internal piston. Your carb is probably an Autolite (Motorcraft) 2100 two barrel. They have the accel pump diaphragm on the front of the carb.
My opinion is you just have the bad luck of two problems at one time. The accel pump diaphragm will be available online or an auto parts store like NAPA, O'Reilleys or Autozone (one day order).


Sal

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Scicala for your response. In the morning I will check and see if its really a carter or not. Like you say,might be a autolite. I will check with the auto parts here locally to see if the acc pump diaphragm is available as a single part or whether I have to buy the complete rebuild kit. I thought that since the pump is now farther away from the block and thus the pump lever being farther back,that this was causing the problem.
I will find out tomorrow.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

Scicala, you were right about the carb., it is a ford motorcraft carb. I ordered the acc.pump diaphragm and installed it in the carb.and there is no more fuel leaking out of the acc.pump diaphragm.Its all good now.I was going to take it for a drive yesterday to see if its still vapor locking but decided to have the radiator flushed out since its very hot out here right now,114 degrees lately. Hoping to get the rad.back by tomorrow Friday or maybe sat.so that I can take it out for a road test.
I sure hope it doesn't quit on me anymore cause I sure hate to get stranded with this high heat.Will find out soon.
Mando

[5851a]

FRAM G3583 is a fuel filter with vapor separator, goes between pump and carb, has to be oriented correctly. You would have to run return line back to tank though. Sounds like electric helper pump may be easier.

[scicala]

Glad you fixed the leak issue. Keeping my fingers crossed on the vapor lock for you.


Sal

[poolplayer1]

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Thanks Sal. As soon as I get the Radiator back,,I will take it for a test run to see if it still quits on me. If it does shut off on me,what would be the best option for me, the G3583 fuel filter or run an Electric fuel pump. I understand that the electric pump has to be installed as close to the fuel tank as possible. Does the fuel filter also have to be just ahead of the fuel pump in the back or can I leave it close to the carb?
oh, by the way,do you or anyone here at the forum have the electrical wiring to the ignition switch that I can get? I was installing a usb port for my iphone when I accidentally busted a wire off the swich.Thanks to you and everyone else here.
Mando

[scicala]

Mando,


Since the G3583 filter requires a return line back to the fuel tank< I think an electric pump mounted close to the fuel tank is the best option. The fuel filter can be anywhere between the pump and carburetor, but for ease of replacing it, I would put it close to the carburetor.
I don't have the wiring info you need for the ignition switch, but there are a lot of helpful people here that do. Hopefully someone will respond.
If not, send a PM to "Hot Rod Reverend". He should have the info.


Sal

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

. . .
oh, by the way,do you or anyone here at the forum have the electrical wiring to the ignition switch that I can get? I was installing a usb port for my iphone when I accidentally busted a wire off the swich.Thanks to you and everyone else here.
Mando

I have a couple '55 wiring diagrams but can't get to them for a few days.
Depending on the car model there are slight differences in how the large yellow 'Battery' wires connect to the Ign & Headlight switches. The '57 diagrams are very similar, esp around the Ign switch.
Here's one...
http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/t...re5765-195.jpg

However, the hardest part of fixing your broken wire is (of course) working upside down under the dashboard. You can unfasten the switch from the dash and it will hang down slightly by its wires to make the work a bit easier. There isn't much slack & if the wires are original to '55 they'll be brittle. There is a special tool to remove the bezel that holds the switch in place.

A. Did the wire break off of the crimp-on loop terminal holding it onto the switch stud? Find the loop terminal missing its wire and you'll know where it connects.

B. Can you tell which device or accessory isn't working? Knowing that will tell you if it should be on the Ign or Acc terminal. Most of the wires attach to the Acc terminal.

If it isn't that easy and the wiring is still oem colors, try to see what color the wire is and if it has a colored stripe on it.
Given that your car was converted from 6v '+' ground to 12v '-' ground, is outfitted with at least a 15yr newer engine (plus some new wiring and accessories) things could easily be different but...

Red with a blue stripe goes to the S (start) terminal stud in the center.
Red with green stripe goes to the C or Ign (coil) terminal on the switch, along with a Black & green stripe wire to power the original Oil and Gen dash lights.
The rest of the smaller wires connect to the "Acc" terminal.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks to both of you for your great help.I don't have my radiator back yet so have not taken it for a test run.Hopefully by Monday I'll have it all put together. I might end up putiing in a new electric fuel pump but won't know till I see if it still quits on me. I think the wiring diagram that is on the link is close enough to be able to check the wiring and connect the busted wire back to the switch. I converted the electrical system on this wagon back a few years ago from a 6v to a 12v. The only thing that I did not change was the ignition switch,its still original.Its always been driving ok.
Do you think that I should of changed the switch too or it'll be ok just using the old 6v ignition switch.I made the changes from 6 to 12v when I removed the V8 272 and installed a 302 engine.
Mando

[scicala]

Mando,


12 volt systems draw less amperage, so the switch should be fine. 6 volt systems generally have heavier wiring also. I had no problems years ago when I did the same to my '52 Ford.


Sal

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

. . . The only thing that I did not change was the ignition switch,its still original.Its always been driving ok.
Do you think that I should of changed the switch too or it'll be ok just using the old 6v ignition switch.
Mando

My '55 was (mostly) changed to 12v by a prev owner. The Ign switch may have been original and was working fine, until after a few test drives with a replacement rebuilt engine.
In theory an original 6v Ign switch has contacts that will take more current than a replacement 12v version, but it's usually older & more worn too.
Mine started acting funny so I lubed the key cylinder and changed the switch for a newer spare I had on the shelf. If yours is working fine leave it alone, but having a spare is very handy.
.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Guys.Yes,the switch is working good with no problems at all. Ok,one more question (Maybe more). I installed a new coil on this 302 and I transferred the ballast resistor that was mounted on top of the old coil case to the new coil.I understand that the purpose of this resistor is to drop the voltage to less than 12v to protect the points from burning premature.Is this correct? I noticed that the voltage on one side of the resistor is at 13.5v and about 10v at the other end.
Mando

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

. . . I understand that the purpose of this resistor is to drop the voltage to less than 12v to protect the points from burning premature.Is this correct? . . .

Yes, having the points last longer was the original intent when electrical systems changed from 6v to 12v. I suppose it may help the coil run slightly cooler too.

In later years ignition coils were designed with an internal resistor so an external one was not needed.
It depends on which version you have, they often have a label on the outside:
'Use with External Resistor' or 'Internal Resistor'.

It's not unheard of to find an 'internal resistor' coil on an engine along with a ballast resistor or resistor wire. The voltage to the coil will be too low, which will reduce the intensity of the spark across the plugs, make the engine hard to start or run poorly.
.

[Michaeldig]

Hows it going? I used to be on these forums quite a bit a few years back. I sold my car do to needing some money, and also at the demand of my then wife. Since then I have lost the wife and am ready to put together another car. I was thinking of putting together a third gen t/a with a traditional engine. I was wondering if anyone had any advice or links they could send me to for tackling such a project. Thanks in advance for any help.

[scicala]

Welcome to the Ford Barn Michaeldig. If by T/A, you mean a Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, you probably won't get a lot of info here.


Sal

[poolplayer1]

Morning. Well,I finally got my radiator back from the shop.While I was waiting for the rad,i went ahead and replaced the water pump,thermostat housing,and the thermostat.After putting all this in along with the rad,I filled up the rad.with distilled water just to make sure that there were no leaks before I put in the antifreeze.I ran the engine for about 15 minutes and the gauge went to 205 degrees.I shut the engine off and withing a few minutes I heard a hissing sound and saw the bottom rad.hose had become loose and pushed back like almost coming off the neck of the rad.I know that I thighten the clamp real good so it was not that the clamp was left loose.Anyway,I let it cool off for awhile,pushed the hose back up its neck,filled it up with water and tried again.By the way,i also bought a new radiator cap.Ran it for about 10 minutes and saw the gauge go up to 210 degrees.I shut it off and withing a few minutes,darn hose became loose again and started leaking water.Again,I made sure the clamp was real tight.I have never come across a problem like this.Need some help with suggestions as to what may be causing this problem.The radiator looks real clean and there is no more rust in the water.Thanks for any and all the help I can get. By the way,Is there a way to check and see if I have a busted head gasket or cracked head? I hope not.I have a 302 engine in it.Man,if it isn't one thing,its another.Can't win for loosing.Oh well,it could be worse.
Mando

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

By the way,Is there a way to check and see if I have a busted head gasket or cracked head? I hope not.I have a 302 engine in it.

Combustion Leak Detector - LISLE LIS-75500

[poolplayer1]

Thank you very much for the tip.
Mando

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

...I filled up the rad.with distilled water just to make sure that there were no leaks before I put in the antifreeze.I ran the engine for about 15 minutes and the gauge went to 205 degrees.

I shut the engine off and withing a few minutes I heard a hissing sound and saw the bottom rad.hose had become loose and pushed back like almost coming off the neck of the rad.I know that I thighten the clamp real good so it was not that the clamp was left loose.

I let it cool off for awhile,pushed the hose back up its neck,filled it up with water and tried again.By the way,i also bought a new radiator cap.Ran it for about 10 minutes and saw the gauge go up to 210 degrees.I shut it off and withing a few minutes,darn hose became loose again and started leaking water.Again,I made sure the clamp was real tight.

Is the bottom hose the correct one (you have an engine swap with I assume the original radiator)? If pressure built up to that degree, the RAD CAP should have released some of the pressure. You might want to have the system pressure checked along with the replacement cap (may be able to borrow/rent tool from AUTOZONE).

Did you burp the system after refill? It may have air bubbles/air lock in the system.

Do you have any idea of the year 302 or 5.0L? If late serpentine design, the WP may be reverse rotation.

[KULTULZ]

BTW-


The IGN SW (B5A 11572-A) is the same 1952-1959 and both rated 6V and 12V.

[5851a]

Had a 68 Montego with 302 and that engine was very hard to refill cooling system, if air locked take heater hose loose from intake manifold and fill radiator till coolant starts to come out of manifold. Had to do the above on mine and jack the front of the car high. Didn't know about drilling small hole in Tstat then.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Kultulz. The hose is only 2 yrs old.Looks in good shape. Everything was ok til I had the radiator soldered and flushed.Like I mentioned before,I did replace the water pump and the thermostat housing along with the thermostat.Before I installed the new WP,I compared both and they did match ok.I double checked to make sure the thermostat went in the correct way ( Spring facing inside block). I did burp the system to get rid of bubbles/air. Back years ago,we took out the original V8 272 out and replaced it with this 1968 302. The belts are the old style V-belts,no serpentine and the rotation is clockwise. I tried again today and after about 10 minutes,I shut the engine down and than a few min.later,the hose got loose again and water started to leak again.This time,I also noticed that the hose got swelled up,like too much pressure being build up. I wonder if I might have gotten a bad water pump.Thanks to 5851 A for the help too.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

After checking all the work that I did (New water pump,thermostat housing,and new thermostat,everything was ok,did not install anything wrong and since the trouble started right after I got my radiator back from the shop,I went ahead and removed the rad.again and too it back to the shop to have it checked to make sure there was nothing wrong with it.I told the guy in a nice way that I did not have any overheating problems before I took it to him other than a small leak at the bottom tank of the rad.He said he was going to take it apart again to make sure there was nothing wrong internally.So,while I am waiting Again for the Rad.to come back,I wanted to see what year this 302 was from.I removed the starter and saw the casting numbers which are the following: EOAE and underneath those numbers are: D5C.They were kind of hard to read but I did spray gunk degreaser to clean the numbers. Now,the E could be an 8 cause it looks like an E or 8. Can anyone here see if you can decode this numbers for me please. I also saw some numbers on the intake and those numbers are C8AE-9425-B but I think those are just for the intake,not the block unless you guys think that might be the block casting numbers.As always,thanks for all your help with this question.
Mando

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

I wanted to see what year this 302 was from.I removed the starter and saw the casting numbers which are the following: EOAE and underneath those numbers are: D5C.They were kind of hard to read but I did spray gunk degreaser to clean the numbers. Now,the E could be an 8 cause it looks like an E or 8.

Can anyone here see if you can decode this numbers for me please. I also saw some numbers on the intake and those numbers are C8AE-9425-B but I think those are just for the intake,not the block unless you guys think that might be the block casting numbers.As always,thanks for all your help with this question.

Mando

E0AE on the BLOCK CASTING I.D. equates to 1980. The actual DATE CODE will give you the year of casting.

C8AE on the MANIFOLD CASTING equates to 1968.

So you have a 5.0L block retro-fitted with earlier 302 carburetion.

So you had no cooling problems before the rad leak? It is the OEM 55 rad?

The repair shop should have rodded the core and performed a flow test after the repair. See what it does when it comes back.

DATE CODE INFO- http://automotivemileposts.com/ford/...rtnumbers.html

Scroll down to DATE CODES on the page.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

I have no proof that the phenolic plastic carb spacers work any better than the metal ones but it seems like it should, so I use one.

They do work.

In the old days ... ... their purpose was to isolate the carb from engine heat to help keep the fuel cooler and deliver a more dense charge. Now they have a newer purpose.

[poolplayer1]

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Thanks for your reply and help. The rad.that I have now is not the oem rad.Its from a 1968 ford Galaxie 500. Its wider than the oem cause I can see where new bolt holes were drilled to accomadate the wider radiator.Like I said,I have never had any over heating problem with this wagon until it came back from the Rad.shop. The only reason I replaced the water pump,thermostat housing and the thermostat was because they had been there quite a few years.Since I am now retired,I expect to start driving it more often. I tried going to the link you posted here but says Error,cannot be found. So the block is from the 80's and the intake from 68? When they start calling the 302's 5.0 liter? Or,has it always been 302/5.0?
Hoping to get the Rad.back for the weekend but I am not holding my breath.
I don't want to rush the guy, that way he has plenty of time to make sure it will not over heat.
Mando

[scicala]

I know your carb at one tie ran cooler with the '68 Ford radiator, but since it is wider and shorted that the original, a lot of the cooling fins are probably blocked by the radiator support frame and panels.


Also if the lower rad hose tends to slide back and the clamp gets loose, that kind of tells me the lower hose tube on the radiator may have a slight taper to it, where the diameter is slightly less at the end.


Sal

[scicala]

Car not carb.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

When they start calling the 302's 5.0 liter? Or,has it always been 302/5.0?

Mando

FORD began to change engine tech on the 78 model run. A lot of changes there and afterwards.

Try Again- http://automotivemileposts.com/ford/...rtnumbers.html

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Sal. The guy from the Rad.shop called me a little while ago and told me that the core was ok,nothing plugged up,( He had rodded it out last week) but that the hose tube at the bottom was too short and that he was going to extend it about 2 inches and hopefully the hose will not come out like it has been doing. I don't think that's going to make a difference cause that same rad.had no problems before,even with the same tube that it has now.Also,I really think that there is something wrong with the rad.,building pressure cause since I got it back from the shop,everytime I run the engine for about 10 to 15 minutes idling and than shut the engine off,within a minute or so after shut off,the bottom hose gets swelled up and than gets loose from the tube,leaking all the water.After I get it back this time and if it does the same thing,I think I will start to look for another radiator since this one is not working out anymore.The only problem is that I already paid the guy $150.00 the first time.
One question, What should the temp.gauge read after 15 minutes with the car idling?
I have a good brand under dash gauge and it reads 210 degrees.
Before he worked on the rad. it use to run only up to 180 degrees.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Kultulz for your help. Going to the link and get some info from there.
Mando

[50fordcoupeman]

My 302-stock- runs about 170 to 180 all the time regardless of outside temp.

[1931flathead]

Did you make sure you put the same water pump back on you took off

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

One question, What should the temp.gauge read after 15 minutes with the car idling?

I have a good brand under dash gauge and it reads 210 degrees. Before he worked on the rad. it use to run only up to 180 degrees.

Mando

What degree replacement thermostat did you use?

Was the WP a reman or quality new? Is the cap quality and @ what poundage does it release? It should spit before the hose swells.

[poolplayer1]

The water pump I put in is a new water pump from master Pro. The new thermostat is 180 degrees.The new radiator cap is a 13 psi cap which it calls for. Still waiting for the Rad.to come back. I found some casting numbers on the old water pump and they are; C8AE-J. I did some research and it looks like this pump was used in the 68 ford model cars that had AC. Would it matter if the new pump is for non-ac motors? Again I matched the old pump to the new one and they both are the same.The only difference is the pulley hub on the old pump is a 2 1/2" and the new hub is 2".
However,the pulley bolt holes match the new hub hole pattern so I don't think that its a problem,unless you think it might make a difference. I tried to find a new water pump from different parts houses by putting in the C8AE-J numbers on the search bar but nobody came up with a cross for it. As usuall,thanks to all for your good advice and suggestions.
Mando

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

The water pump I put in is a new water pump from master Pro. The new thermostat is 180 degrees.The new radiator cap is a 13 psi cap which it calls for. Still waiting for the Rad.to come back.

I found some casting numbers on the old water pump and they are; C8AE-J. I did some research and it looks like this pump was used in the 68 ford model cars that had AC. Would it matter if the new pump is for non-ac motors? Again I matched the old pump to the new one and they both are the same.The only difference is the pulley hub on the old pump is a 2 1/2" and the new hub is 2".

However,the pulley bolt holes match the new hub hole pattern so I don't think that its a problem,unless you think it might make a difference. I tried to find a new water pump from different parts houses by putting in the C8AE-J numbers on the search bar but nobody came up with a cross for it.

Mando

The pump used (C8AE) is from a 1968/ 302. It was used to have the correct FEAD (Front Engine Accessory Drive) for the engine swap/install, that being mainly WP shaft length.

It is correct if all the drive/driven pulleys line up.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks for your help Kultulz. Yes,the new water pump did match the old pump and the pulley fitted ok on the pump too.I am going to buy a infra red Temp.gun to use on my wagon when I get my rad.back from the shop.We have a harbor freight here in town and they have a temp. gun for around $31.00.I know they are not the best tools to buy but for the few times that I will be using it,I think it might be ok.What do you guys think about tools from them?
Oh, Can you guys advice me what would be a decent (Price Wise) OBD11 scanner to buy.I don't want a reall cheapy one but a medium price that will do a good job in reading the codes of my other truck.It uses the newer computer and requires the OBD11 scanner.Thanks for your reply.
Mando

[scicala]

Also, I believe when Ford switched to serpentine drive on the belt, they reversed the rotation of the water pump. Pretty sure on that. Possible you have the wrong rotation water pump ? Not sure what year they made the switch.


Sal

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Sal. The rotation of this pump is clockwise.The belt is a V belt,does not use the serpentine but I am going to do some checking around and see what I can come up with.
Mando

[JeffB2]

1969 and earlier SBF's 289-302 (short pump) would have the lower hose on the passenger side 1970 and later long pumps the lower hose is drivers side.

[Buford]

I think since you changed the thermostat at the same time you had the radiator cleaned you might do yourself a favor and run the engine without the stat to see if that might solve the overheating....it sounds to me like the stat might not be opening causing all that extra pressure in the system?

[Kahuna]

I like Buford's thought.
Would be my first try
Jim

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

. . . i went ahead and replaced the water pump,thermostat housing,and the thermostat. . .

Originally Posted by Buford

....it sounds to me like the stat might not be opening causing all that extra pressure in the system?

Is there a chance the thermostat got installed backwards?
The side with the spring points toward the engine.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Guys for all your help.Yes,the bottom radiator hose is on the passenger side,since its a 68 model.I did make sure that the thermostat spring was facing toward the engine. I am still waiting for the Rad.to come back.The guy is the only Rad.guy here in town and with all this heat (115),he stays really busy.When I get it back.if it still building up pressure,I will remove the thermostat and than try again.It is a new thermos.but like anything,it could be bad.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

. . . It is a new thermos.but like anything,it could be bad.

While you're waiting for the radiator, you could put it in a pot of boiling water to see if it opens.
(as in the photo above)

.

[poolplayer1]

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That's an idea,since I can't do anything else til I get the radiator back.Thank you.
Mando

[dmsfrr]

Mando,
Since it's probably got anti-freeze on it a really good rinsing off before it goes in the pot will be a good idea too. Along w/ soap & water in the pot afterward.
Having car parts in the kitchen requires caution, to avoid offending the head chef.
.

[poolplayer1]

I sure hope I get the RAd.back by tomorrow.I hate to be a pain in the s but I am going to call the guy in the morning and tell him that I think he has had enough time.
If I do get it tomorrow,I will put it back in and try and see if it works good this time.
Thanks dmsfrr.
Mando

[poolplayer1]

Well, darn it. The Radiator guy just called me and said that the core had too many tubes that were plugged up and that it was leaking and therefore,it was beyond repair and that I should look for another radiator to replace it.I told him how come he didn't tell me that the first time he worked on it. Anyway,does anyone here have a radiator for a 55 ford that I can buy from? Mine is a station wagon but I don't think there is any difference between a full size car and a SW. Let me know if you do.
In the mean time I will go on the net and search for one.
If you guys know or can think of a company that may have one,please let me know.
Thanks for all your help.
Mando

[dmsfrr]

But it was good enough to charge you full price the first time he fixed it? How does that work?
Did he give you back the radiator?
I'll bet he didn't give you even a partial a refund either

.

[scicala]

Sounds like the radiator shop screwed you on that one. It's obvious they didn't even check it correctly the first time, but I'll bet they put a nice paint job on it. I would go dance on their counter top and demand some money back. Not to mention all of the time you spent going there and back and wasted time/labor.


Sal

[poolplayer1]

I am going this afternoon to get my radiator back from him. I am going to see if I can get at least some money back since the repair that he supposedly did the first time did not work. I need to get it back so that I can take some measurements of the core and an overall height and width of the rad. By the way,do you think that aluminum radiators will work fine with this vehicle just in case I can't find the oem. I saw one on ebay but the top hose is on the passenger side and mine is on the driver side.I don't think that's a problem cause I can always get a different top hose.
Thanks for your comments.
Mando

[scicala]

It seems to me a REAL radiator shop should be able to re-core your original radiator.
If not, I've heard some of the aluminum ones work well. I have no experience myself with them.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

That radiator shop is very unprofessional.

The word I wanted but could not remember is incompetent.

CASE STUDY-



How a MORON can attempt to EDIT a post and blow it out of the water instead...

[poolplayer1]

Hello friends. I got my radiator back yesterday after he said it was beyond repair.After arguing with the guy for awhile,I was able to get 80.00 refund.I told him he should of known that the core was beyond repair when he did a pressure test and at that point he should of called me to give me the bad news.That would of been the end of the story,no labor wasted and no paint wasted.Anyway,I found a copper/brass downflow radiator online.It looks and measures just like the one I have here.
The difference is the top hose is on the left side of the tank and mine is on the right side but I'll just get a flexible rad.hose that I can shape to reach the inlet tube.
If not,I'll get 2 hoses and couple them together to reach the inlet.
Thanks to all for your good comments and suggestions.
Mando

[KULTULZ]

The difference is the top hose is on the left side of the tank and mine is on the right side but I'll just get a flexible rad.hose that I can shape to reach the inlet tube.

If you could find a competent radiator shop nearby, they could move that upper tank inlet.

[poolplayer1]

Yes,you are correct.That shop is not taking care of his business in a professional way.I told him he had lost my business because of the way he treated me.Nobody can afford to give money away. Anyway,I went ahead and ordered the new radiator that was for sale online. It will be 4 or 5 days before I get it but that's ok cause I already wasted more than 3 weeks waiting for this Rad.guy to work ( Or maybe not) on my rad.
Funny that you mentioned the top inlet being moved to the other side cause I had just talked to another shop about 30 miles away and he said he could move the inlet to the side that I needed it to be. I hope this guy is more decent than the local one.
I believe that just because a repair shop treated me unfairly,I am going to think that all shops are the same. One bad apple does not mean that all apples are bad.Thats my opinion.
Mando

[KULTULZ]

I forget...


You said your present WP inlet (bottom hose) is on the left side so as to allow the coolant to flow across the radiator?

[poolplayer1]

I guess it depends on where you are at ( in front of the engine or sitting in the drivers side) to determine which is your left and which is your right. The water pump inlet in this 302 is on the right (from drivers position).The outlet of the new radiator is on the right too so that will match ok. The top radiator hose inlet on the new rad.is on the right and on my old rad.,its on the left. When I get the new radiator I will figure out how to make the top hose fit. I guess when mentioning left and right on a vehicle its best to say passenger or driver side.That makes things a lot easier to understand. Have a good day guys.Thanks
Mando

[scicala]

"I guess when mentioning left and right on a vehicle its best to say passenger or driver side.That makes things a lot easier to understand. Have a good day guys. Thanks"




Passenger's or driver's side works unless it's someone from Australia, New Zealand or the UK where the drivers side is the right side.
The rule of thumb is everything is looked at as if sitting in the front seat as far as left or right side.


Sal

[JeffB2]

When doing a 289-302 swap in a 1952-56 Ford you can use the 1965-69 "short" water pump and matching shorter balancer the lower hose will then be on the passenger side,1n 1970 the SBF's used a longer water pump and the lower hose was moved to the driver's side. The early "short" pump gains about 3" more water pump to radiator clearance when replacing a y-block or flathead V8 the Six cylinder cars have the radiator mounted more forward and a different lower splash pan.

[JeffB2]

This is a 1967 Mustang 289 this may be the water outlet and hose you will need (very common with the SBF swap)

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

I guess it depends on where you are at ( in front of the engine or sitting in the drivers side) to determine which is your left and which is your right

Never stand to one side...

Why am I reminded of THE THREE STOOGES trying to figure out right and left hand nails...

Or being sent to the service truck to get a LH monkey wrench?

Or the drill sergeant yelling out "YOUR OTHER LEFT!"?

[poolplayer1]

I got my new radiator in yesterday.I started to install it this morning but I noticed that as I sit it on its bottom support bracket,the bottom hose outlet of the radiator is right in front of the sway bar and therefore,I cannot install my bottom hose cause of the sway bar being in the way.My question is this,does the rad.have to sit on its bottom support or can I raise it about an inch and than just make different mounting holes to hold it up on that position? The new Rad.is 1" shorter height wise and therefore raising it up is no problem.By doing this,the rad.outlet will be above the sway bar and thus letting me install the bottom hose.Do you think this will work ok or do you have other suggestions? Please let me know asap so that I can hopefully put this rad.in today.I really appreciate all of your help with this problem.
Mando

[dmsfrr]

I'm not sure how the stock radiator fits to the lower support
but sight unseen your solution sounds reasonable.

Once you drill even one new mounting hole you can't return it, but you knew that.
That extra inch at the bottom should be covered with something to block the air from sneaking past the radiator without going thru it.

.

[poolplayer1]

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Thanks dmsfrr. That's what I did.I have it installed now and I did cover up the extra 1" space at the bottom of the radiator.I had to go out to take care of some things this afternoon so did not get a chance to fill it up with coolant.I will do that tomorrow morning and than try and see if it works good now.I sure hope I don't have anymore heating problems on this 302.
Mando