The Ford Barn

alanwoodieman · 03-03-2019, 02:58 PM

Installed several set of these self-energizing brakes and decided to take some pictures of these installed on a 40 coupe. As you know if you have read/done one of these conversions you need to remove "some material from the spindle" these pictures should tell the story

BoxCar Tom · 03-03-2019, 03:16 PM

Hi, Do you have any follow up pictures of the backing plates mounted to the spindles. Also, did you happen to notice that the wheel cylinders are not centered on the brake shoes. If so what did you do, if anything, to correct the issue?

19Fordy · 03-03-2019, 04:07 PM

BoxCarTom: Here's a good article on how Bendix brakes work and why they are better than Lockheed.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0911...system-basics/
On my Boling Bros (MT Products kit) I didn't notice if the wheel cylinders were centered or not but, because of the way the Bendix brakes literally "float" inside the brake drum to create the self-energizing action,I don't think it's critical like as with Lockheed brakes where the shoes move only in an outward direction as pedal pressure increases. The Bendix brakes actually move or "float" and the wheel cylinder pistons compensate for the extra movement, I believe. I am sure boling bros would have engineered their set up properly. I sent you a PM about the brake install.

Krylon32 · 03-03-2019, 04:09 PM

Great pictures. I've done dozens of this conversion for customers chassis and my own cars. I find if you use the right MC and they're adjusted properly they work excellent.

John R · 03-03-2019, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoxCar Tom

Hi, Do you have any follow up pictures of the backing plates mounted to the spindles. Also, did you happen to notice that the wheel cylinders are not centered on the brake shoes. If so what did you do, if anything, to correct the issue?

The original Lincoln brakes were 1 3/4" wide. The MT/Boling Bros brakes are available in 1 3/4" width (for original Lincoln drums) or 2" width (only for BB repro or Buick) drums. As I recall, the wheel cylinders are centered on the shoes only with the 1 3/4" shoes (since the repro backing plates are essentially the same as the original Lincolns in this respect). For the 2" shoes, the questions seem to be:1) is the cylinder/shoe offset OK and 2) can/should the wheel cyl be shimmed 1/8" to eliminate the offset?

meric42 · 03-03-2019, 05:36 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Krylon32

Great pictures. I've done dozens of this conversion for customers chassis and my own cars. I find if you use the right MC and they're adjusted properly they work excellent.

Can you please explain what you mean by "the right MC"? I have a '41 Coupe with a new original style replacement MC and Boling brakes front & rear, they seem to be operating fine. But is there a better option?

Krylon32 · 03-03-2019, 05:51 PM

meric42 I was simply referring to a MC designed for drum/drum brakes. There is nothing wrong with your setup. On my new installs I use a dual master cylinder designed for drum/drum with residual valves built in.

meric42 · 03-03-2019, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krylon32

meric42 I was simply referring to a MC designed for drum/drum brakes. There is nothing wrong with your setup. On my new installs I use a dual master cylinder designed for drum/drum with residual valves built in.

Cheers, thanks for the clarification.

paul2748 · 03-03-2019, 09:26 PM

I used F-100 brakes on an early spindle and I also had to grind the spindle down

alanwoodieman · 03-04-2019, 09:29 AM

F1 brakes on early spindles only require a little grinding where there is interference with the drake hose connection. I have also done a few of these and they are a lot easier to do, but you have to change bearings, use the F1 hub/drum. I used to be able to get these from junkyards/hot rodders for next to nothing, but they are drying up and by the time you buy all you need new it is easier and cheaper to do the conversion than the change over to F1

alanwoodieman · 03-04-2019, 09:32 AM

krylon32 ,what dual MC did you use and how do you access the top fill? 67-68 mustange has been suggested

19Fordy · 03-04-2019, 10:37 AM

Here's another view of the front spindle modification on a 40 Ford for the MT Brakes.
I made a grinding template. If anyone needs one just send PM.

Zax40 · 03-04-2019, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krylon32

meric42 I was simply referring to a MC designed for drum/drum brakes. There is nothing wrong with your setup. On my new installs I use a dual master cylinder designed for drum/drum with residual valves built in.

Do you have a part number for this master cylinder? Does it require a 3 bolt to 2 bolt mount adapter?

alanwoodieman · 03-04-2019, 01:24 PM

dual master cylinder conversion will require a three to two adapter. attached are pictures of the backing plate/wheel cylinders on the BB conversion. A comment was made about the wheel cylinder being not centered, but upon closer inspection they are centered on the king pin, which must make them work better

Krylon32 · 03-04-2019, 04:56 PM

The master cylinder numbers are Cardone 10-1292 and 10-1329. They have 2 bolt flanges. The only difference is they exit on different sides. I'm not in the shop so can't tell you which sides they exit on but I've used both successfully on my drum/drum chassis. They have residual valves built in and I've never put anything else in the lines except a brake switch port. I always plumb in both directions with 3/16th line. I've done not only several of my own but dozens of customer chassis this way with no problems.

40cpe · 03-04-2019, 05:13 PM

It has been mentioned several times that if the stroke on the brake pedal isn't long enough, the dual master cylinder can't do its job if one circuit fails. Is the stroke on the under-floor mounted brake pedal adequate to stop the car if a failure occurs using one of the dual chamber cylinders?

JSeery · 03-04-2019, 05:17 PM

IF I looked them up correctly, the Cardone 10-1292 connections are on the left and the 10-1329 has them on the right.

Krylon32 · 03-04-2019, 05:44 PM

That looks correct. They do have a Chevy bolt pattern flange that requires a little massaging for most aftermarket MC brackets as they are designed for Ford MC's. I use P&J under floor MC mounts on all of my chassis and with the massage they bolt on and work with a full stroke to work properly.

bobH · 03-04-2019, 05:48 PM

Regarding dual M/C''s and the stroke... It wouldn't hurt to read rumbleseats experience and comments. If you are putting any 'faith' in that dual M/C, I'd certainly suggest trying his experiment of opening the bleeder at one end, then go out for a ride (in a safe area).

JMHO

my4dv8 · 03-04-2019, 06:27 PM

Dual M/C doesnt necessarily mean that in some cases. We had a factory ford from the 90s Dual circuit Master on our 49 coupe . 7 hrs from home the brakes went away for the most part as we had a small split in the middle of a rear line. Opened the M/C ,lo and behold the rear reservoir was empty and the front had very little. Don’t know why ,but they are connected somehow.
Some awesome Chevy guys opened their shop and put it on the lift and took charge of the repairs.

03-03-2019, 03:16 PM	#2
BoxCar Tom Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Basking Ridge, NJ Posts: 589	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion Hi, Do you have any follow up pictures of the backing plates mounted to the spindles. Also, did you happen to notice that the wheel cylinders are not centered on the brake shoes. If so what did you do, if anything, to correct the issue?

03-03-2019, 04:07 PM	#3
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,925	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion BoxCarTom: Here's a good article on how Bendix brakes work and why they are better than Lockheed. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0911...system-basics/ On my Boling Bros (MT Products kit) I didn't notice if the wheel cylinders were centered or not but, because of the way the Bendix brakes literally "float" inside the brake drum to create the self-energizing action,I don't think it's critical like as with Lockheed brakes where the shoes move only in an outward direction as pedal pressure increases. The Bendix brakes actually move or "float" and the wheel cylinder pistons compensate for the extra movement, I believe. I am sure boling bros would have engineered their set up properly. I sent you a PM about the brake install.

03-03-2019, 04:09 PM	#4
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,471	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion Great pictures. I've done dozens of this conversion for customers chassis and my own cars. I find if you use the right MC and they're adjusted properly they work excellent.

03-03-2019, 05:51 PM	#7
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,471	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion meric42 I was simply referring to a MC designed for drum/drum brakes. There is nothing wrong with your setup. On my new installs I use a dual master cylinder designed for drum/drum with residual valves built in.

03-03-2019, 09:26 PM	#9
paul2748 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Midland Park, NJ Posts: 3,980	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion I used F-100 brakes on an early spindle and I also had to grind the spindle down __________________ 48 Ford Conv 56 Tbird 54 Ford Victoria

03-04-2019, 09:29 AM	#10
alanwoodieman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: upstate SC Posts: 2,963	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion F1 brakes on early spindles only require a little grinding where there is interference with the drake hose connection. I have also done a few of these and they are a lot easier to do, but you have to change bearings, use the F1 hub/drum. I used to be able to get these from junkyards/hot rodders for next to nothing, but they are drying up and by the time you buy all you need new it is easier and cheaper to do the conversion than the change over to F1

03-04-2019, 09:32 AM	#11
alanwoodieman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: upstate SC Posts: 2,963	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion krylon32 ,what dual MC did you use and how do you access the top fill? 67-68 mustange has been suggested

03-04-2019, 04:56 PM	#15
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,471	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion The master cylinder numbers are Cardone 10-1292 and 10-1329. They have 2 bolt flanges. The only difference is they exit on different sides. I'm not in the shop so can't tell you which sides they exit on but I've used both successfully on my drum/drum chassis. They have residual valves built in and I've never put anything else in the lines except a brake switch port. I always plumb in both directions with 3/16th line. I've done not only several of my own but dozens of customer chassis this way with no problems.

03-04-2019, 05:13 PM	#16
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion It has been mentioned several times that if the stroke on the brake pedal isn't long enough, the dual master cylinder can't do its job if one circuit fails. Is the stroke on the under-floor mounted brake pedal adequate to stop the car if a failure occurs using one of the dual chamber cylinders?

03-04-2019, 05:44 PM	#18
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,471	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion That looks correct. They do have a Chevy bolt pattern flange that requires a little massaging for most aftermarket MC brackets as they are designed for Ford MC's. I use P&J under floor MC mounts on all of my chassis and with the massage they bolt on and work with a full stroke to work properly.

03-04-2019, 05:48 PM	#19
bobH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: so cal, placerville, vegas Posts: 1,394	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion Regarding dual M/C''s and the stroke... It wouldn't hurt to read rumbleseats experience and comments. If you are putting any 'faith' in that dual M/C, I'd certainly suggest trying his experiment of opening the bleeder at one end, then go out for a ride (in a safe area). JMHO

03-04-2019, 06:27 PM	#20
my4dv8 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,111	Re: Boling Brothers Brake Conversion Dual M/C doesnt necessarily mean that in some cases. We had a factory ford from the 90s Dual circuit Master on our 49 coupe . 7 hrs from home the brakes went away for the most part as we had a small split in the middle of a rear line. Opened the M/C ,lo and behold the rear reservoir was empty and the front had very little. Don’t know why ,but they are connected somehow. Some awesome Chevy guys opened their shop and put it on the lift and took charge of the repairs.