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Old 09-12-2019, 06:38 PM   #61
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
Railcarmover, I'm not sure the rear bearing would run dry, just don't want to chance it. On my insert engine I run a 1-piece Burtz seal, and it stays dry. I also run a babbitted mains engine on the salt using a rope seal, and it drips a little but not much. Ran 167 mph on babbitt in 2013, no problems with the engine, just turbo failure, so no record.

Just wondering about the failure rate with inserts and the rear main,seems starvation would be the cause,compounded by the inserts properties.

peening is done to relieve stress? imagine a properly peened bearing is less prone to crack..
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:45 PM   #62
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

To pour mains in a block, and we do only 1 main at a time, that is so you have the time to give the bearing the attention that each one needs. If you do 3 at once, by the time you get to the last one, it can be colder then wanted. Also you have to heat 3 mains to a temperature that is hot enough to pour, but your taking a chance that the newly machined block, could warp.

We cool the bearing shell with water, as babbitt always moves to the colder surface, and we don't have as far the move the babbitt liner.

We use a air hammer to peen, the babbitt.

Babbitt shrinks away from a non tinned surface, and there is no way to stop it. Depending, that distance can be .000-50, to .003-00. If you don"t peen it, the crank will do it for you, and break it, into pieces, especially pushing the flanges, off the ends.

Some people think that the drilled anchor holes in the block shells are what holds the babbitt in tight. Not so, the only job they have, and can do, is keep the bearings from spinning, just like the locking Lip does in a modern bearing.

Cleaning any bearing shell with a wire wheel on a motor, is a joke. It will not remove rust, or carbon, all that it will do is polish the rust, and carbon, nothing sticks to dirt.

Opening the oil holes should be done with small punches, before the final clean up with the drill, because, a punch will swedge, and peen the hole so oil can not get under the babbitt, and it is tight to the bearing shell. Oil is not a good conductor of heat, so oil is not needed, or wanted between the bearing, and block.

Pictures are of a second babbitt job, same motor, that also went bad in less then 100 miles. Same company. These were wire brushed to clean rust, and carbon, you can see what happened. Rear cap and block were not Peened.

Herm.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:03 PM   #63
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
Pictures are of a second babbitt job, same motor, that also went bad in less then 100 miles. Same company. .

The video showed them dipping the rods to remove the babbit. How much do you want to bet they re-use Babbitt? One more thing they mentioned "lead based babbitt that Ford used" Not true.


Here is some more information on Babbitt;


http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/babbittgrades.htm
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:48 PM   #64
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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The video showed them dipping the rods to remove the babbit. How much do you want to bet they re-use Babbitt? One more thing they mentioned "lead based babbitt that Ford used" Not true.


Here is some more information on Babbitt;


http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/babbittgrades.htm
Yes, I Agree Mr. Mike, I caught that also, I just for got about it.

Herm.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:00 AM   #65
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Love to see that Hagerty engine torn down after the tow and run-in to inspect what's going on with those bearings. Obviously, this is an area of differing opinions on what is acceptable...

Based on this guy's ability to set timing, there could be more issues.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:47 AM   #66
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

He may end up being lucky that it didn't fire off right away but the damage is likely already done. A bearing with no clearance is not a bearing. It's an engine brake. I just wonder where the machine shop that did the bearing work got their information from. A You-Tube video?
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:04 AM   #67
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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He may end up being lucky that it didn't fire off right away but the damage is likely already done. A bearing with no clearance is not a bearing. It's an engine brake. I just wonder where the machine shop that did the bearing work got their information from. A You-Tube video?

Getting information from some sources today is like being on the receiving end of a 90 year old game of telephone.
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:54 AM   #68
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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Getting (ACCURATE) information from some sources today is like being on the receiving end of a 90 year old game of telephone.





I agree, ...and one of those such sources is here!!


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Old 09-13-2019, 12:12 PM   #69
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Thanks Herm, and Mike, very interesting!
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:34 PM   #70
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

^^^what he said^^^..
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:18 PM   #71
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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Originally Posted by Corley View Post
Love to see that Hagerty engine torn down after the tow and run-in to inspect what's going on with those bearings. Obviously, this is an area of differing opinions on what is acceptable...

Based on this guy's ability to set timing, there could be more issues.

Ha, Ha, Ha, Good, one , Mr Corley, that one hit my funny bone!

Herm.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:52 PM   #72
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Apology.


I jumped to a conclusion about reuse of Babbitt. I have zero proof that they do anything other then use the pot to melt the old rod bearings out.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:42 AM   #73
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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Apology.


I jumped to a conclusion about reuse of Babbitt. I have zero proof that they do anything other then use the pot to melt the old rod bearings out.

You also jumped to the conclusion that Ford used "Babbitt"! Ford DID use lead-based Babbitt during the teens & earlier in his engines, however based on what I have seen on factory documents, he NEVER used 'tin-based Babbitt'. If you can prove otherwise on M-Specs, I will retract my statement but my research at the archives (-not based on hearsay) counters what some are saying. While some may consider my statement above as splitting hairs, -IMO it was some of you that started this nonsense first.

To clarify my statement above, it was in the 1830s that a guy named Isaac Babbitt blended alloys to create a poured casting that was suitable for high-load bearings. By the time Ford started producing engines, Babbitt's patents had expired and other companies were manufacturing Casting Alloys too. And, by the time Henry Ford got around to manufacturing the 2nd generation of Model-A, he & his engineers were manufacturing their own blend of casting alloy consisting mostly of Tin, Copper, & Antimony. This was not something that Isaac Babbitt, -nor his company had engineered, nor were manufacturing, ...and my research shows that Mr. Babbitt nor his company had anything to do with supplying Ford the casting alloy used in the Model-A engine. Many people erroneously call the cast bearing material Babbitt however it really is no different than telling someone to blow their nose on a Kleenex, -or telling someone they need to get a Jeep to pull them out. In both scenarios, any manufacturer's Facial Tissue, ...or any 4-wheel drive vehicle can be used with success. So trying to tell someone that Ford only used 'Tin-based Babbitt' is as false as saying Henry Ford never used lead-based alloys in his engines and axles.
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Old 09-14-2019, 11:07 AM   #74
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

The fact remains,with poured bearings or precision insert bearings the assembler should insure the assembly has proper clearance. My experience with diesel and gas engine assembly,regardless of compression pressure or size of components a properly fit crankshaft to spec spins freely by hand.That is undeniable and anyone who takes part in assembling an engine with the crankshaft 'frozen' by the bearings displays poor workmanship. Any one who provides a service and is involved with a documentation of his services with the results as shown at the minimum failed to protect his interest,at the maximum displayed that he performs shoddy work and doesn't realize it..either way,its an indictment he freely submitted.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:54 PM   #75
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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The fact remains,with poured bearings or precision insert bearings the assembler should insure the assembly has proper clearance. My experience with diesel and gas engine assembly,regardless of compression pressure or size of components a properly fit crankshaft to spec spins freely by hand.That is undeniable and anyone who takes part in assembling an engine with the crankshaft 'frozen' by the bearings displays poor workmanship. Any one who provides a service and is involved with a documentation of his services with the results as shown at the minimum failed to protect his interest,at the maximum displayed that he performs shoddy work and doesn't realize it..either way,its an indictment he freely submitted.


But we know that ford infact did just this. In the haggerty video his crank is not frozen but requires 120ft lbs to turn.



"Ford spun engines in with an electric motor, they used an ammeter to determine the resistance value. Burnishing the mains,allowing the last step of fitting the bearings to the crankshaft itself through rotation."


good enough for 20+ million engine but not good enough for now? This is akin to saying rolling the cylinders is a shit method because the rings of today require a cross hatch. The bearings of today require the .0015. There is no break in for insert bearings there is just wear and failure. perfect or fail. Ford's methods and Ron's methods prove These Old engines do not need perfect to not fail.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:41 PM   #76
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Fords methods were based on speed of assembly and the ability to tolerate losses due to volume.Ford,for instance tolerated scrapping over 1000 tudor body assemblies tuning the welding and jig techniques. I really dont want to tolerate an engine failure due to a technique that doesnt insure perfect results..I'm too cheap to take a chance
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:46 PM   #77
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Fail rate was probably low. each block takes time and material. It wouldnt take too many toss outs to overcome the savings of measurement time. Ron's fail rate is probably low as well.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:01 PM   #78
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Before the Model T, of what Ford used for Babbitt, I can't say, But all the early blocks that we poured, that had babbitt in the block, and that was Ford babbitt, was TIN BASE BABBITT. To say he used lead, is ludicrous. The only Lead he did try, was in the early V-8 rod bearings, of Copper, and lead, that were short lived.

Also the 1903 Curved Dash Olds I just got done with about 2 weeks ago, had Tin Base babbitt in the mains, and the Rod. OH, yes, they had Tin Base in 1900.

The early shops had had heavy cast iron units to do the same thing as pulling a car around in a parking lot. They used to call the machines Burning in machines, and after Wilson came out with his combination machine, they thought the name a bit harsh, so then they were called Burnishing Machines.

In any case, instead of burning in the bearings, they burnt them out. What they found out, that it screws up what, if any line bore you did have. Because with all bearings tight, the wrong ones opens up first.

Now, before any body says that Ford run in the motors, yes he did, but the clearance, was not the same as .000. The Model A bearings were set at .001 thousandths. clearance, So a run in would open to .001-50 to .0001-60, that being .002-50, around the bearing, and that will not hurt the surface babbitt, as .000 will smear about .005 to .010 making the babbitt brittle, and then what happens is it starts going back through the bearing, like sand. I seen that condition many times here on the barn, and in our shop, redoing other peoples messes.

Herm.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:58 PM   #79
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

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Fail rate was probably low. each block takes time and material. It wouldnt take too many toss outs to overcome the savings of measurement time. Ron's fail rate is probably low as well.

No doubt,but when I assemble an engine I shoot for a zero fail rate,you do too..I'm with you btw,let him pour your babbitt you know how to correctly fit a bearing.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:20 PM   #80
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Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

I get a sinking feeling and pain in my hands thinking about fitting a bearing.
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