The Ford Barn

lafarm · 07-14-2019, 06:49 PM

52 Victoria overdrive was working fine when I starting out cold but after parking a few minutes restarting at 27 mph when the Governor kicks in the amp gauge goes to minus charge and stays that way until slowing below 25 mph now it does that even when starting cold checked the relay on firewall seems to be OK haven't got to governor yet but thinking it has a problem was wondering if it may be repairable or need to be replaced.

40cpe · 07-14-2019, 07:12 PM

The governor is working fine, it grounds the relay to send power to the solenoid. 6V systems are sensitive to low voltage. First make sure your battery and charging system are working properly. Older wiring systems develop resistance in connections between the relay and solenoid. Sometimes the points in the solenoid need cleaning.

Mac VP · 07-15-2019, 05:21 AM

Try to look over every single wire involved with your overdrive harness.....look for loose terminals, rubbed through insulation where it could be shorting out against sharp metal edges, etc.

A good ground is essential for the OD functionality. Check all body ground straps. Consider adding a separate ground strap under the car, from the solenoid mounting bolts to a nearby body location. Even though this is a good thing to add, I suspect you have a short circuit developing.

Frank Miller · 07-17-2019, 06:43 AM

What you have is essentially the pull in coil not pulling in or not disengaging. There is a high current draw coil that pull in the Od and yhen a low current one maintains it. A set of points inside the OD removes current for the pull in coil. As stated you may have a bad connection that is not letting it pul in all the way to switch the coils. When mine engages I can sometimes see the amp needle momentarily discharge and come back up.

lafarm · 07-17-2019, 07:46 AM

checked the wiring today looks good except eye connectors on the solenoid have no insulation and one of them may have been in contact with the solenoid case, Fixed that and tested it in the garage and it worked like it should wont know for sure until I get it out and drive it a some, Other problem I found was overdrive cable was in two pieces and held together with a wire clamp that was being pulled into the kick down switch removed that and have a new overdrive cable ordered. Thanks for the help response

rotorwrench · 07-17-2019, 12:56 PM

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Just for information. When your governor reaches on speed, it turns the whole system on. The dash relay energizes the operating solenoid so both are hot until it shifts up into overdrive. While in overdrive the dash relay is still hot but the operating solenoid goes into a holding coil mode that uses less energy to operate. As was already mentioned, the electrical system needs to be maintained in good condition. High resistance equals higher current draw. I'm glad to hear the OP found the problem. New reproduction overdrive harnesses are available. I always keep a new one on hand. The swampy conditions under the car are hell on electrical systems.

lafarm · 07-17-2019, 08:48 PM

I have a 1950's motor manual that has a good schematic of the circuit and trouble shooting charts, I normally only drive this car a couple times a months when the weather is good seems like I spend more time working on it which I get satisfaction when it works right than driving, Will check on a new overdrive wire harness. Temps have been so hot in the shop haven't spent much time there lately.

Paul Bennett · 07-19-2019, 06:57 AM

Above 27mph, voltage is applied to the primary overdrive coil which sucks in the solenoid shaft engaging overdrive. Immediately after the activated solenoid's shaft reaches its end-of-motion, the primary coil within the solenoid is disengaged and voltage is then applied (again this is within the solenoid) to a secondary holding coil which as it's name implied, continues to hold the overdrive shaft in the 'active' position. Reason for this setup is that a great force is needed to jam the shaft into overdrive position but once there only a small force is needed to keep it there, hence the low current secondary coil.

In the case where the solenoid continues to draw a large current after activation, the contacts which change voltage from primary to secondary coil are just not working. The solenoid needs attention. One possibility is a leaking seal whereby transmission oil has leaking into the electrical area within the solenoid, and the contacts have gone bad.

No reason to mess with the relay or other electricals outside the solenoid as the problem lies within. See Vintage Auto Garage .com for a fix.

rotorwrench · 07-19-2019, 01:07 PM

The operating solenoid is at full power for kick in until the driver lets off the throttle so it can shift. This shouldn't really tax the system too much unless there is a problem with high resistance in the system that will make it draw more current than it's supposed to. FoMoCo initially used the rail cut out switch to kill the power in the system while the overdrive is locked out. Since folks didn't drive the cars all that much with the overdrive locked out, the switch was deleted (sometime in 1951). The only bad thing about this is that the system is hot at any speed above governor on speed whether the system is locked out or not. FoMoCo just didn't think this was an issue and normally it won't be unless further electrical accessories like driving lamps are installed and the car is driven long distances at night with the heater and the radio playing. These old cars generally only had a 35 amp system so there are limitations to what can be done in that respect.

leon bee · 07-19-2019, 02:28 PM

Rotorwrench: I'm trying to figure all this out, but haven't connected all my OD stuff yet. The cut-out switch I have looks bad. Is it worth it to have a toggle switch somewhere to substitute for that cut-out? Where I live I anticipate OD will be locked out often.

Frank Miller · 07-20-2019, 06:50 AM

If you mean the switch on the floor, you can just bypass it by connecting th two wires from the realy to the solenoid and eliminating the wire from the coil. The switches are readily available.

rotorwrench · 07-20-2019, 09:22 AM

You can use a toggle switch for a manual lock out. It would require only to disable power to the system at the firewall relay to make it simple but the operator would have to remember to switch it back on after you lock the overdrive back in with the cable. I've repaired a few lock out rail switches and found a few NOS ones. When you run these old cars it pays to look for the hard to get stuff when you can. For those that want to add a lock out switch where there never was one could also do this if they wanted to. A person really only needs an electrical lock out switch if they do a lot of trailering where the overdrive may not be practical.

donald1950 · 07-20-2019, 10:40 AM

NAPA still has the OD kickdown switch available
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHOD6284

i would also make sure all wires from battery to relay ans relay to solenoid are 12 gauge wire. too small a wire heats and acts like a resistor, and i have has ODs wired through the ignition switch that had problems energizing, so i always fed my relay with a 30 amp fuse and 30 amp circuit breaker in line directly from the battery.....

rotorwrench · 07-20-2019, 05:00 PM

Don's right about that. The same gauge wire should be used as the big black wire that connects the system at the ignition switch. That's where it would be easiest to tie in for an interrupter circuit. It may be 12 gauge or even 10 gauge since the system is protected by a 30 amp fuse. I would say that the switch would have to be capable to function with the amount of current that is drawn by the relay and the operating solenoid. It may be from 5 to 10 amps inrush but I've never seen the specs of the system. The 30 amp fuse it to protect the wire but that doesn't mean it takes 30 amps to operate the system. My guess would be around 5 to 7 amps initially. I'll have to see if I can find out what the rail and governor switches were rated at. When you buy a cheap switch, you get what you pay for now days. Military standard would be the best bet for a simple toggle switch. It's just a single pole single throw on/off switch. Allied or Newark should carry them. Maybe a few others.

07-14-2019, 06:49 PM	#1
lafarm Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: SW MI Posts: 46	Overdrive experts I need some help. 52 Victoria overdrive was working fine when I starting out cold but after parking a few minutes restarting at 27 mph when the Governor kicks in the amp gauge goes to minus charge and stays that way until slowing below 25 mph now it does that even when starting cold checked the relay on firewall seems to be OK haven't got to governor yet but thinking it has a problem was wondering if it may be repairable or need to be replaced.

07-14-2019, 07:12 PM	#2
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. The governor is working fine, it grounds the relay to send power to the solenoid. 6V systems are sensitive to low voltage. First make sure your battery and charging system are working properly. Older wiring systems develop resistance in connections between the relay and solenoid. Sometimes the points in the solenoid need cleaning.

07-15-2019, 05:21 AM	#3
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,361	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. Try to look over every single wire involved with your overdrive harness.....look for loose terminals, rubbed through insulation where it could be shorting out against sharp metal edges, etc. A good ground is essential for the OD functionality. Check all body ground straps. Consider adding a separate ground strap under the car, from the solenoid mounting bolts to a nearby body location. Even though this is a good thing to add, I suspect you have a short circuit developing. __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

07-17-2019, 06:43 AM	#4
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. What you have is essentially the pull in coil not pulling in or not disengaging. There is a high current draw coil that pull in the Od and yhen a low current one maintains it. A set of points inside the OD removes current for the pull in coil. As stated you may have a bad connection that is not letting it pul in all the way to switch the coils. When mine engages I can sometimes see the amp needle momentarily discharge and come back up. __________________ “The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound

07-17-2019, 07:46 AM	#5
lafarm Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: SW MI Posts: 46	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. checked the wiring today looks good except eye connectors on the solenoid have no insulation and one of them may have been in contact with the solenoid case, Fixed that and tested it in the garage and it worked like it should wont know for sure until I get it out and drive it a some, Other problem I found was overdrive cable was in two pieces and held together with a wire clamp that was being pulled into the kick down switch removed that and have a new overdrive cable ordered. Thanks for the help response

07-17-2019, 12:56 PM	#6
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,425	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Just for information. When your governor reaches on speed, it turns the whole system on. The dash relay energizes the operating solenoid so both are hot until it shifts up into overdrive. While in overdrive the dash relay is still hot but the operating solenoid goes into a holding coil mode that uses less energy to operate. As was already mentioned, the electrical system needs to be maintained in good condition. High resistance equals higher current draw. I'm glad to hear the OP found the problem. New reproduction overdrive harnesses are available. I always keep a new one on hand. The swampy conditions under the car are hell on electrical systems. Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-18-2019 at 01:12 PM. Reason: spelling

07-17-2019, 08:48 PM	#7
lafarm Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: SW MI Posts: 46	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. I have a 1950's motor manual that has a good schematic of the circuit and trouble shooting charts, I normally only drive this car a couple times a months when the weather is good seems like I spend more time working on it which I get satisfaction when it works right than driving, Will check on a new overdrive wire harness. Temps have been so hot in the shop haven't spent much time there lately.

07-19-2019, 06:57 AM	#8
Paul Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 628	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. Above 27mph, voltage is applied to the primary overdrive coil which sucks in the solenoid shaft engaging overdrive. Immediately after the activated solenoid's shaft reaches its end-of-motion, the primary coil within the solenoid is disengaged and voltage is then applied (again this is within the solenoid) to a secondary holding coil which as it's name implied, continues to hold the overdrive shaft in the 'active' position. Reason for this setup is that a great force is needed to jam the shaft into overdrive position but once there only a small force is needed to keep it there, hence the low current secondary coil. In the case where the solenoid continues to draw a large current after activation, the contacts which change voltage from primary to secondary coil are just not working. The solenoid needs attention. One possibility is a leaking seal whereby transmission oil has leaking into the electrical area within the solenoid, and the contacts have gone bad. No reason to mess with the relay or other electricals outside the solenoid as the problem lies within. See Vintage Auto Garage .com for a fix.

07-19-2019, 01:07 PM	#9
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,425	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. The operating solenoid is at full power for kick in until the driver lets off the throttle so it can shift. This shouldn't really tax the system too much unless there is a problem with high resistance in the system that will make it draw more current than it's supposed to. FoMoCo initially used the rail cut out switch to kill the power in the system while the overdrive is locked out. Since folks didn't drive the cars all that much with the overdrive locked out, the switch was deleted (sometime in 1951). The only bad thing about this is that the system is hot at any speed above governor on speed whether the system is locked out or not. FoMoCo just didn't think this was an issue and normally it won't be unless further electrical accessories like driving lamps are installed and the car is driven long distances at night with the heater and the radio playing. These old cars generally only had a 35 amp system so there are limitations to what can be done in that respect.

07-19-2019, 02:28 PM	#10
leon bee Senior Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Arkansas Posts: 611	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. Rotorwrench: I'm trying to figure all this out, but haven't connected all my OD stuff yet. The cut-out switch I have looks bad. Is it worth it to have a toggle switch somewhere to substitute for that cut-out? Where I live I anticipate OD will be locked out often.

07-20-2019, 06:50 AM	#11
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. If you mean the switch on the floor, you can just bypass it by connecting th two wires from the realy to the solenoid and eliminating the wire from the coil. The switches are readily available. __________________ “The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound

07-20-2019, 09:22 AM	#12
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,425	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. You can use a toggle switch for a manual lock out. It would require only to disable power to the system at the firewall relay to make it simple but the operator would have to remember to switch it back on after you lock the overdrive back in with the cable. I've repaired a few lock out rail switches and found a few NOS ones. When you run these old cars it pays to look for the hard to get stuff when you can. For those that want to add a lock out switch where there never was one could also do this if they wanted to. A person really only needs an electrical lock out switch if they do a lot of trailering where the overdrive may not be practical.

07-20-2019, 10:40 AM	#13
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. NAPA still has the OD kickdown switch available https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHOD6284 i would also make sure all wires from battery to relay ans relay to solenoid are 12 gauge wire. too small a wire heats and acts like a resistor, and i have has ODs wired through the ignition switch that had problems energizing, so i always fed my relay with a 30 amp fuse and 30 amp circuit breaker in line directly from the battery.....

07-20-2019, 05:00 PM	#14
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,425	Re: Overdrive experts I need some help. Don's right about that. The same gauge wire should be used as the big black wire that connects the system at the ignition switch. That's where it would be easiest to tie in for an interrupter circuit. It may be 12 gauge or even 10 gauge since the system is protected by a 30 amp fuse. I would say that the switch would have to be capable to function with the amount of current that is drawn by the relay and the operating solenoid. It may be from 5 to 10 amps inrush but I've never seen the specs of the system. The 30 amp fuse it to protect the wire but that doesn't mean it takes 30 amps to operate the system. My guess would be around 5 to 7 amps initially. I'll have to see if I can find out what the rail and governor switches were rated at. When you buy a cheap switch, you get what you pay for now days. Military standard would be the best bet for a simple toggle switch. It's just a single pole single throw on/off switch. Allied or Newark should carry them. Maybe a few others.