radiator failure

[woofa.express]

I had sort help on this forum about coolant filters and settled on a sock specifically made. Had coolant leak around the neck where sock was fitted and it really made a mess of my paintwork as I had vinegar to clean the engine block. Removed sock and yes it did catch moderate amount of debris. still leaking. This time a close inspection revealed it's leaking where the upper neck is soldered to the tank.
the radiator, new and fitted mid Sept 18. the pressurized one.
What a disappointment, the failure and the mess.
So my earlier reporting of the failure with the sock was incorrect.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Any idea of what caused the Neck to develop the leak?

[Railcarmover]

Why use a pressurized system?...epoxy the neck..

[rocket1]

I would first call the dealer you purchased it from and register a complaint,let this forum know how you made out and the dealers name.

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Any idea of what caused the Neck to develop the leak?

I think poor manufacture would .

[woofa.express]

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Originally Posted by rocket1

I would first call the dealer you purchased it from and register a complaint,let this forum know how you made out and the dealers name.

This is a problem. The dealer is in U.S. and I am in Australia. The freight there and back is 60% of the radiator purchase price. I have no problem with the dealers integrity.

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Why use a pressurized system?...epoxy the neck..

it leaks where the radiator neck is soldered (? adhered) to the tank. Why the pressurised system? I bought a new water pump, the sealed bearing type, and thought the pressurised system might have an advantage.
I also bought a second radiator for another vehicle, non pressurised and this has not been a problem. Yes, why did I buy a pressurised system? I'm asking that question of myself. I checked the pressure relief cap and yes it is performing at 4 pound just like it supposed to.

[whirnot]

I had a similar problem with a recored radiator, that was leaking at the top where the filler neck was soldered on. I kept thinking the cap was leaking. I haven't used that car much lately, so when I finally figured it out, almost three years had passed since I bought the radiator. Kind of hard to go back to the supplier after all that time......
And I too don't question his integrity.
I just took it into a local shop and had it fixed, and live to fight another day.....

[1931 flamingo]

Remove the rad, clean the neck good and re-solder. Take the pressure cap off...........


JMO
Paul in CT

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Remove the rad, clean the neck good and re-solder. Take the pressure cap off...........


JMO
Paul in CT

If drained, and the shell is off, can it be soldered on the car? Asking because I do not know.

[super flat]

Yes but laying flat would be much better and I dought you will find anyone to do it in car.

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Remove the rad, clean the neck good and re-solder. Take the pressure cap off...........


JMO
Paul in CT

yes, I reckon without pressure it would have held.

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

If drained, and the shell is off, can it be soldered on the car? Asking because I do not know.

Maybe it could be done insitu. However the whole radiator section and front engine needs cleaning and really the radiator must be removed for that. It's quite a mess.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by woofa.express

Maybe it could be done insitu. However the whole radiator section and front engine needs cleaning and really the radiator must be removed for that. It's quite a mess.

Yeah, it is a mess, I had overheating issues and had rusty water get all over everything, has to be much worse with vinegar, not even considering what the vinegar does to the paint. I think Tom W. posted pictures of the mess once, not sure if it was here or on Forum "that shall not be named" (reference to Harry Potter).


I feel for you.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by woofa.express

Maybe it could be done insitu. However the whole radiator section and front engine needs cleaning and really the radiator must be removed for that. It's quite a mess.

How about brazing? JB Weld squished a little through the crack to act as a plug, with screen reinforcement? I know is a farmer fix. Most likely want to do it right as long as it is off.

[zzlegend]

Brazing is a no,no. Very easy fix with a small propane torch and some string solder. Clean with a small wire brush that looks like a tooth brush. Very little flux and you will be styling.

[updraught]

"Pickling is a process that removes oxidation and flux residues that develop during the soldering process."

https://nancylthamilton.com/techniqu...d-baking-soda/

Looks like that has been successful.

[Lawrie]

go to a radiator repair shop and get some solder from them,its made in Aus and about 3-4 mm dia, remove the radiator, clean the area with a wire brush and emery paper,then use proper slider flux and a small blue LPG burner thing, avail cheap from Bunnings,
If Terry from Mackay can remove and repair his 28 radiator on the side of the road in WA with his cooking burner,you should be able to do it in your shed.
Lawrie

[whirnot]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Why use a pressurized system?...epoxy the neck..

Don't epoxy it. In an other sideline, I remove things that have been epoxied together... by soaking in boiling water. Epoxy melts......

[whirnot]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

How about brazing? JB Weld squished a little through the crack to act as a plug, with screen reinforcement? I know is a farmer fix. Most likely want to do it right as long as it is off.

Brazing takes more heat then Solder,

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

go to a radiator repair shop and get some solder from them,its made in Aus and about 3-4 mm dia, remove the radiator, clean the area with a wire brush and emery paper,then use proper slider flux and a small blue LPG burner thing, avail cheap from Bunnings,
If Terry from Mackay can remove and repair his 28 radiator on the side of the road in WA with his cooking burner,you should be able to do it in your shed.
Lawrie

well that's a challenge isn't it.

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by whirnot

Don't epoxy it. In an other sideline, I remove things that have been epoxied together... by soaking in boiling water. Epoxy melts......

Id like to see modern epoxy melt with 160 deree water,that would be neat.

[whirnot]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Id like to see modern epoxy melt with 160 deree water,that would be neat.

Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level. At lower temperature at higher elevations. You may plan on an engine running at 160 degrees but they overheat from time to time and boil over. You want to take a chance of your repair coming apart at that time because you used epoxy, instead of fixing it correctly?
And I am talking modern epoxy, I did it last week.

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by woofa.express

well that's a challenge isn't it.

Shouldn’t be a big challenge for a guy that does crop dusting and flying airplanes!

David Serraano

[updraught]

The Sydney Opera House here was stuck together with Araldite in 1966.
Pioneering stuff at the time.
Might avoid it on a hot day now.

[Railcarmover]

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Originally Posted by whirnot

Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level. At lower temperature at higher elevations. You may plan on an engine running at 160 degrees but they overheat from time to time and boil over. You want to take a chance of your repair coming apart at that time because you used epoxy, instead of fixing it correctly?
And I am talking modern epoxy, I did it last week.

Yep,I've epoxyed radiators on pressurized systems that expand and contract..ran hell out of them,no problem..fixed cracked oil pans and transmission cases too,and the kick of it is,say on the off chance he didn't prep it correctly and it failed it wont be due to the epoxy melting.

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by California Travieso

Shouldn’t be a big challenge for a guy that does crop dusting and flying airplanes!

David Serraano

Hi C. T.
It's horses for courses.

[woofa.express]

Not so easy.

My friend Phillip is a particularly clever engineer so I asked him if he could solder my radiator. He said no he had neither the solder type which he described nor the currency on soldering. I asked if a plumber could do it as that is their work and skill and he said no again. Most of them don’t have that skill these days, they are too accustomed to using new products such as PVC and silastic.
Phillip went on to say that it needs a radiator repair shop for they would suspend in an acid bath for a period and use the correct type of solder. He went on to say he sends his radiators to a radiator shop. Not as simple as I had imagined.

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

go to a radiator repair shop and get some solder from them,its made in Aus and about 3-4 mm dia, remove the radiator, clean the area with a wire brush and emery paper,then use proper slider flux and a small blue LPG burner thing, avail cheap from Bunnings,
If Terry from Mackay can remove and repair his 28 radiator on the side of the road in WA with his cooking burner,you should be able to do it in your shed.
Lawrie

Sounds like an episode of bush mechanics.

[updraught]

Bush Mechanics:

Radiator patch: One of the more ingenuous bush mechanics hacks, especially handy in the relentless heat of central Australia, is to use molten lead from the interval plates of an old battery as a soldering agent to repair a cracked radiator. The lead pieces are removed and melted in a camp fire using a metal hubcap as a dish and the lead is then dripped into the radiator cracks.

https://www.facebook.com/bushmechani...1040882430899/

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by updraught

Bush Mechanics:

Radiator patch: One of the more ingenuous bush mechanics hacks, especially handy in the relentless heat of central Australia, is to use molten lead from the interval plates of an old battery as a soldering agent to repair a cracked radiator. The lead pieces are removed and melted in a camp fire using a metal hubcap as a dish and the lead is then dripped into the radiator cracks.

https://www.facebook.com/bushmechani...1040882430899/

Noticed handling the guts if the battery without gloves.
He must have drained acid and flushed with baking soda/water 1st?

[dumb person]

I have repaired cracks in cast iron using the propane torch and solder method. How i lived without the torch until then i don't know. One of the best buys i've ever made.

And that bush mechanics show is legit too.

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by California Travieso

Shouldn’t be a big challenge for a guy that does crop dusting and flying airplanes!

David Serraano

Hi again David. I've been thinking about your comment above. thinking about it for a long time. Here's what's on my mind. It may surprise you.

I don't believe I have the confidence in myself and this is why. I conduct my occupation in an expert and professional way and I'm good at it. When I go to do other things I have expectations of doing them the same as a professional in that particular field. I know I can't so I don't. But if I do a job it's always messy. I just have expectations of having repairs and maintenance and modifications and builds to a professional standard. Does that sound silly or dumb?

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by whirnot

Brazing takes more heat then Solder,

I'll finish the sentence: and liable to create localized distortion, grain growth, and embrittlement.

Better to use solder. Make sure to get 60-40 which is the "old fashioned" solder, but the solder of choice for most everything EXCEPT sweat fitting water pipes.

Use NoKorode flux https://www.rectorseal.com/nokorode-regular-paste-flux/ after careful cleaning to bare metal using like 150 sandpaper (not emery cloth) this to leave the surface a little rough to make up in mechanical attachment what you don't get in molecular attraction.

Buy the smallest container of NoKorode available - unless you're like me who bought a 2lb pot back when I was 21 years old - and I'm down about 1/3 of the pot after 43 years - you don't need much flux - just enough to "wet" the surface. Less is more when it comes to flux.

This could be done "in place" - but as mentioned best would be the radiator laying on its face and you working the engine (upper) side.

Joe K

[chap52]

After you get it soldered up I would just, as suggested, get rid of the pressure cap. I would assume that the fluid would flow as in the old non-pressurized system. I ain't no scientist but if the pump pumps water into the top it is also pulling it out of the bottom...I think? Chap

[Dave in MN]

Woofa...
I suggest you remove the radiator and take it to a qualified radiator repair shop. This is your only cost effective solution to end up with the best result. Oh...and keep the 4# cap! You bought the sealed system after careful consideration so trust yourself. Use it. Good luck with the repair.

I take issue with those who say throw the 4# cap away.
I use a sealed system with a 4# cap on two of my cars I tour with. The first and longest installed system in my Phaeton has over 96,000 miles on the sealed system. (Third water pump though...bearings wore out!) I have not had problems with leaks in the radiators, water pumps or head gaskets. I do keep the heads torqued to 55#, use a leakless pump built by James Rupert and the sealed radiators were built by Brassworks. I often drive an entire season without the need to add water. This car will run the freeways at 65 mph in overdrive all day long no matter the hills or the temps if pressed to. (Not fun though!)
The second system recently installed and being tested with a Roof overhead valve head and an air conditioner is not working so well. The system is not leaking but it does not have enough capacity to remove all the extra heat from the souped up engine and the extra needs of the AC. So I need a bigger radiator but it will still be a sealed system. I expect it will also work flawlessly when sized correctly. If I tried to cool this with an open system, it just would not work.
From my experience, if the sealed systems are installed correctly and all the components are in good condition, they work without issue. I have also installed six additional sealed 4# systems on customer's cars who needed more capacity than the stock system could provide. These people like to drive fast and a stock system would not provide enough cooling.
Now that said, I have a stock open system in my '28 pickup that I drive 500 miles or less a year and not much over 55 mph. This open stock system works too! I have worked on many customer's stock cooling systems and find when everything is well maintained there are not issues.

If you drive your Model A like it was designed to be driven, a well maintained stock open system is all you need. If you drive faster, load your motor with non-stock systems or don't want to add water all the time you may need the extra capacity a pressurized system provides.

I believe if one is to fairly and wisely comment on the use of a pressurized system in a Model A, one should have enough experience with both stock systems and pressurized systems to know when a sealed and slightly pressurized system is the right choice. I admit I am a bit sensitive to the negative comments I hear and read about sealed systems. I often feel the need to reply to the "That's just stupid" or similar comments I get when I have my hood up. I try to be polite but it is getting more difficult as the source of the comment often ignores the fact that I am standing right there. I wasn't raised to do that or to take that! So, am I biased and sensitive? Yes!
I often respond to that type of comment by telling a little story and it goes something like this: I am usually close to the last car in the line of cars when we participate in Club tours and I always stop to help those having trouble. To help all the touring people, I carry lots of spare parts and two jugs of water in my trunk and use the water occasionally when there is a boil-over but never in my own car! Enough said?
Just my 3 cents worth on the subject!

Good Day Everyone!

[Joe K]

Um. The reason for pressurized systems in modern cars is to raise the combustion cylinder temperature and achieve measurably greater gas mileage. Also to provide amenity like effective cabin heat - but that is an "after advantage."

As far as heat transfer goes, in a non-pressure system, heat transfer would be less. A higher radiator temperature will cause a greater delta T with the air and greater heat flow in proportion to the delta Ts.

A pressurized system might be of advantage if you're running very close to saturation temperature (i.e. 212) and you want to prevent cavitation in your pump (its called "net positive suction head" NPSH for pumps) where pulling a vacuum at the eye of the pump cuts severely into flow.

That said, there is no reason NOT to stay pressurized since you're already there - assuming the radiator was designed for it.

This radiator may have been an "adaptation." As in no rolled seam at the upper connection juncture?

Joe K
I like the part about one "getting his hood up!." Very apropos.

[Dave in MN]

Joe K
I like the part about one "getting his hood up!." Very apropos.[/QUOTE]


Now that's good humor! I did not see that until you pointed it out.

I half expected someone to come back with "That's just stupid" and I would have seen the humor in that as well.

Thanks for commenting. I'm smiling.

Dave

[30 Closed Cab PU]

My understanding, please correct me if wrong.


What I do not understand is that a pressurized system is in modern cars so they can run hotter, more efficiently. Todays cars have materials that are able to work at the hotter temps.


Model As were not built to run that hot. You run up to 212, you run the risk of hurting the motor. Cylinder wall oil flash over, metal parts not spec'd to hotter temps, etc.


A pressurized system does not cool better and antifreeze does not cool better than water. They only allow you to run hotter before boiling.


I consider a boil over, steaming, water loss, coolant boiling @ 212 - as something wrong with the cooling system. Kinda an early warning something needs fixing ASAP.

[Joe K]

Model As were not built to run that hot. You run up to 212, you run the risk of hurting the motor. Cylinder wall oil flash over, metal parts not spec'd to hotter temps, etc.

There is not a lot of difference engineering wise between today's motors at 15psi/249F and the Model A at 0psi/212. What has changed since the Model A era is the oil. Today's oils, driven by the desired increased temperatures, have a "flatter" viscosity curve - especially so for so called "synthetic oil."

A pressurized system does not cool better and antifreeze does not cool better than water. They only allow you to run hotter before boiling.

A pressurized system DOES cool better. That Delta T thing I mentioned. More heat can be transferred, or potentially a smaller radiator required for the same heat transfer.

Now heat transfer from the motor TO the coolant will be retarded a bit with increased coolant temperature - that delta T thing again. So your motor will run EVEN HOTTER than the increased temperature of the coolant might suggest. But again - those oils.

As to the efficacy of pressurizing, it has plus and minus. Plus on efficiency, life of the motor (did I mention that?) and conservation of coolant. Minus on lubrication.

Plus - my comment on "Thats Just Stupid." What is stupid is making a statement like that without consideration of listener.

I'm a kind of a "keep it original" sort of guy. I get my jollies from the originality of the Model A car and its "uniqueness." I hold it as a kind of a comparison and look back to see how far we've come - and a reminder of how brutal and hard it really was with 500 mile oil changes and maybe 20K miles tops on a set of bias ply tires. (I remember myself how we thought tires were SOOO improved because then they could be driven 40K maybe 45K miles. And you changed your shocks at every other tire change - 80K.)

Others have a different set of standards. They like to drive the car for PLEASURE - and they do things like hydraulic brakes, shortening the pitman arm, speed upgrades, overdrives, and a whole parcel of so called "improvements" to the car. When they're done is it still a Model A?

I make a living currently restoring old houses. Many times a client consults with me about this improvement or that improvement. One of my standard comments to these queries are "Yunno they're only original once." And another is "You can upgrade the colonial charm right out of this house if you're not careful." Part of what makes historic houses historic is the fact that they're not like modern houses: winder staircases, short doors, wavy glass, and low ceilings. Remove all this and you remove the charm - in my estimation.

But there is the engineering side of me who appreciates running water, toilets that work, cellars that are full height and dry, and energy efficiency.

So like the Model A - I see both sides here too.

And I don't blurt out - "That's just stupid." Because for the hearer - it might not be.

Joe K

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Thanks for the info Joe. I had read somewhere, that an extra 20- 30 degrees of coolant temperature over 212 in a Model A brings oil close to the flash point on the cylinder walls. So you really do not want to go over that temp.


You were comparing a modern 15 PSI to a model A. Am curious, do you really gain much at less than 4 PSI, which I believe what most Model A pressurized systems run? Am asking because I do not know.


My opinion is that if a stock unpressurized A is regularly overheating at 212 water or antifreeze, something is not right and needs attention.


I agree with not using the stupid or similar remarks, if somebody (like myself) posts something incorrect, I appreciate being corrected and educated. I know I've probably learned a lot of things that are not correct by trying to sift through all the multiple and sometimes conflicting opinions. And is why I post a lot, to validate what I think I know.


As far as modified vs. stock - there is room for everyone to enjoy their A as they like and should not be criticized for their decisions.

[Joe K]

Nice post above - well said.

My opinion is that if a stock unpressurized A is regularly overheating at 212 water or antifreeze, something is not right and needs attention.

Agreed. As far as the car design itself goes, I consider the 28-29 Model years more susceptible to overheating - simply because of the smaller size of the radiator. Ford himself "cut corners" on the 28-29 radiators - the original radiator being the somewhat advanced "funnel top" radiators, and then a reversion to a more conventional round tube radiator, plain top. The reversion radiator was a good radiator when the car was driven off the lot, but combined with water impurities and grease from the water pump, they were less lived than the original funnel tops.

Pressurization and increased delta T can make a marginal radiator act like a larger radiator. Thus the interest in pressurization - although pressurization is usually done with a NEW radiator, thus removing the cause for overheating on TWO fronts. It may be possible to have a CHEAPER radiator (i.e. less copper surface area) which may be incentive for producers to market pressurization - and gain a premium price for an "improved" product. Which it is - and isn't.

Many have cited use of a "flow restrictor" on a marginal radiator to prevent overheating. Cutting down the pump impeller is another solution.

Most of this I think are done not so much for boiling over, but rather "throwing water" out the overflow which the not funnel top radiators are prone to do on both 28-29 and 30-31 radiators. A near "boiling over" condition might suggest itself by throwing water easier? And one does either of the remedies as a "stop-gap" until finally forced by Physics into a new CLEAN radiator?

The Model A waterpump was designed for the funnel top (wide dispersion of water over the upper tube sheet) and the narrower confine/flow circuit of the later radiators exacerbated the throwing water problem. It makes sense that the radiator might in time with plugging become the "surge tank" for the system as water builds up in the top box - and heads for the overflow. One imagines the flow restrictor/cut impeller as a mal-design mitigation which does not otherwise affect total heat transfer?

It might even increase heat transfer. Lower flow rates through the cooling circuit will cause an increased average motor temperature AND an increased average radiator temperature. Look to that delta T in both cases. We're fortunate with modern oils to have little consequence to increasing average motor temperature.

So yes, by higher average delta T a flow restrictor CAN help a marginal radiator and prevent it from boiling over for a couple of reasons. But, there will be a price in higher cylinder wall temperature, less viscous oil more easily wiped by the oil control ring, and consequently less lubrication/more engine wear.

Interesting "mind-experiment" all of this.

Joe K

[B0B]

My radiator filler neck broke off with the Quail on it and landed on the road ! I removed the radiator outer shell and cap, Drained the coolant down below the upper radiator tank, , Hung a heat gun I imagine an old style heat lamp would work too my heat gun (Harbor Freight )was about 14 inches above the top of the radiator set to LOW heat aimed at the top of the upper tank hole and heated the area to around 200 to 300 degrees F this is Hot but you must stay below the soldering melting point of the nearby joints. Next I carefully removed extra solder from on top by heating the soldered areas with a small propane torch and wiping off the solder with a wadded up rag (T-Shirt ) I did this quickly so as not to melt solder joints elsewhere on the radiator it was heat-Wipe in a couple of seconds . Then the areas to be soldered were inspected and wire brushed next flux was applied in this case it was Sal Met acid base flux . Lacking the Sal met Flux I recommend plumbing paste flux like is used to solder copper pipes . Now the actual soldering was done using a soldering gun mine is a weller D550 while the heat gun was still on low setting this along with the soldering gun or large soldering iron gives great control .The solder used was 50/50 plumbers solder with out flux acid core solder should work as well . I did this a couple of years ago and looked at the joint yesterday and it looks very good and has not leaked .
B0B in Michigan

[dpson]

Just had the neck resoldered on my radiator. Had it done right by a professional at an old time radiator shop. My advice, pull the radiator and have it done right, then no worries down the road.

[woofa.express]

Originally Posted by dpson

Just had the neck resoldered on my radiator. Had it done right by a professional at an old time radiator shop. My advice, pull the radiator and have it done right, then no worries down the road.

There has been some interesting accounts and good advise come from this thread. Yes dpson, that is what I will do. cheers, gary