Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-04-2020, 01:19 PM   #1
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Looking at purchasing all the valvetrain components, 4-ring pistons and rings from Speedway - any thoughts you might have I would appreciate......

This is for a French block build, .125 over, 4” crank, L100 cam, Charlie NYs top mount distributor, 2 deuces, and heads are still a question mark .....

Thanks .....
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 01:41 PM   #2
Ronnieroadster
Senior Member
 
Ronnieroadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: East Coast in CT
Posts: 1,510
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg View Post
Looking at purchasing all the valvetrain components, 4-ring pistons and rings from Speedway - any thoughts you might have I would appreciate......

This is for a French block build, .125 over, 4” crank, L100 cam, Charlie NYs top mount distributor, 2 deuces, and heads are still a question mark .....

Thanks .....
Heres my thoughts
Since the bore is going to be .125 over it would be much better running three ring pistons. The reduction is friction alone would be worth any additional cost. Speedways pistons are actually Egge brand cast pistons. You may be able to get a better price by ordering the pistons and rings directly from Egge.
Ronnieroadster
__________________
I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block"
Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
Ronnieroadster is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-04-2020, 01:46 PM   #3
Floyd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 468
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Just my opinion,
Pistons from Egge, everything else from Red's Headers. Two stop shopping and it comes with tons of advice as these guys have been at it for years.
Floyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 01:46 PM   #4
51504bat
Senior Member
 
51504bat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SoCal-Redlands
Posts: 2,997
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

If were me I'd check with Red's Headers. An independent dealer and he won't try to sell you something you don't want, need, or won't work in your application. I bought almost everything for my 8ba rebuild from Red's. High quality mostly USA made parts (the bearings were from Israel IIRC) and fair pricing IMO.

https://www.reds-headers.net/
62400 Chiriaco Rd, Chiriaco Summit, CA 92201
(760) 343-2590
__________________
Making the simple complicated for over 30 years.
51504bat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 01:47 PM   #5
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

To add to this, I would also suggest looking into pistons with metric ring packs. The extra money on this upgrade is well worth it in reduced friction and wear. There is a measurable difference turning one over by the crank bolt with metric rings vs. cast iron.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 02:02 PM   #6
papanomad
Senior Member
 
papanomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: clear lake, iowa
Posts: 157
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
check with van pelt.
papanomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 02:20 PM   #7
Krylon32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,430
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

I'm doing a French block and have been looking at Reds. I agree with the 3 ring metric ring pistons but who makes the best? Where do you get the L100 cam?
Krylon32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 02:29 PM   #8
51504bat
Senior Member
 
51504bat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SoCal-Redlands
Posts: 2,997
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylon32 View Post
I'm doing a French block and have been looking at Reds. I agree with the 3 ring metric ring pistons but who makes the best? Where do you get the L100 cam?

Check with Kiwinus over on the HAMB
__________________
Making the simple complicated for over 30 years.
51504bat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 02:36 PM   #9
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylon32 View Post
I'm doing a French block and have been looking at Reds. I agree with the 3 ring metric ring pistons but who makes the best? Where do you get the L100 cam?
Kiwi Tony on Fordbarn is grinding them.

I'll let others answer the piston question. I went with Ross, but Arias and Wisco also make 3 ring, metric ringed pistons for flatheads.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 02:42 PM   #10
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,842
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Not sure what the application is, but the L-100 cam is more for show, with it's rump rump sound. It need compression for local driving as the bottom end torque is missing. A Max #1 or Isly 1007b have nallot mor compression sa the intakes sooner (Dynamic CR) I think' I like *.5 for regular gas if you cam get it. I don't think the ross forged pistons for Metric rings, is cost effective for a street engine. Unless he\s planning on running Bville., ,
Love my new keyboard, much smarter than the old one
Gramps
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 03:10 PM   #11
tubman
Senior Member
 
tubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 10,260
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

I'm running a set of Speedway 4 ring 3 5/16" pistines in my latest build. I go 'em on closeout ("Garage Sale") for less than $100 (ristons, pins, clips and rings). I left out the bottom rings (they have modern oil rings in the third groove), had it balanced, and it works just fine. The main reason I used them is that I had everything but the pistons to put an engine together and price of these made it an easy decision.

I'd do it agian inn a hearbeat. I agree with "Gramps" that the metric-ring pistons are probably a waste of money on a street motor. (I didn't use a block plate when I bored it either).
tubman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 03:25 PM   #12
flatheadmurre
Senior Member
 
flatheadmurre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,045
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

I´m not sure that many understand what low tension actually means...the only rings that has a tension spec is the oilrings...
Compression ring (first ring only) is forced against cylinderwall by compression and not by a set tension in it...
So if you go modern low tension you have to adress windage or oilcontrol will be the next issue in your new motor.
And if you go real narrow you need tight piston to ring fit...which means you need gasporting for the rings to work...
If resistance turning the engine over by hand would be reflected in horsepower gain it would be lovely...sadly that isn´t happening.
flatheadmurre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 04:00 PM   #13
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
I´m not sure that many understand what low tension actually means...the only rings that has a tension spec is the oilrings...
Compression ring (first ring only) is forced against cylinderwall by compression and not by a set tension in it...
So if you go modern low tension you have to adress windage or oilcontrol will be the next issue in your new motor.
And if you go real narrow you need tight piston to ring fit...which means you need gasporting for the rings to work...
If resistance turning the engine over by hand would be reflected in horsepower gain it would be lovely...sadly that isn´t happening.
I hear what you are saying, but drag is drag, no? If it takes 55 lbs to turn over one motor and 40 lbs another, you really don't think that extra 15 lbs. accounts for HP loss or inefficiencies?

Also, if modern rings weren't superior to cast iron, every major auto manufacture would have stuck with them for they are cheaper and easier to install.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 04:29 PM   #14
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Thank you gentlemen - I will now go do my homework.....

You guys are the best.....

TomT
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 04:47 PM   #15
flatheadmurre
Senior Member
 
flatheadmurre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,045
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
I hear what you are saying, but drag is drag, no? If it takes 55 lbs to turn over one motor and 40 lbs another, you really don't think that extra 15 lbs. accounts for HP loss or inefficiencies?

Also, if modern rings weren't superior to cast iron, every major auto manufacture would have stuck with them for they are cheaper and easier to install.
You gain HP or rather loose less...
But friction from compression ring will just show running the engine...not turning over by hand.
And what kind of power increase in % do you think it will gain for you ?
Older rings ain´t easier in any way...other way around since you need break-in which means the driver can fail doing it correct...and manufacturer gets a warranty claim.
Question is more where the money is best spent on a street engine.
flatheadmurre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 05:20 PM   #16
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
You gain HP or rather loose less...
But friction from compression ring will just show running the engine...not turning over by hand.
And what kind of power increase in % do you think it will gain for you ?
Older rings ain´t easier in any way...other way around since you need break-in which means the driver can fail doing it correct...and manufacturer gets a warranty claim.
Question is more where the money is best spent on a street engine.
5% here, 5% there all starts to add up to real numbers. If I'm dumping a ton of money and time into an engine, I want the biggest bang for my buck I can get. Every component was thought out how it will work, as a whole, with the other components.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 06-04-2020 at 08:00 PM.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 06:10 PM   #17
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,013
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylon32 View Post
I'm doing a French block and have been looking at Reds. I agree with the 3 ring metric ring pistons but who makes the best? Where do you get the L100 cam?
Ring availability is key - you should be able to call ED at Ross Pistons, he will work with you to ensure that he has the right rings available for a given bore size. I frequently CHANGE my bore size to match the rings that I want to run.

The 1.5, 1.5, 3.0mm ring packages are MUCH better than the old cast-iron Grant or Hastings rings. Worth every extra penny!
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 06:50 PM   #18
Ronnieroadster
Senior Member
 
Ronnieroadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: East Coast in CT
Posts: 1,510
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
I´m not sure that many understand what low tension actually means...the only rings that has a tension spec is the oilrings...
Compression ring (first ring only) is forced against cylinderwall by compression and not by a set tension in it...
So if you go modern low tension you have to adress windage or oilcontrol will be the next issue in your new motor.
And if you go real narrow you need tight piston to ring fit...which means you need gasporting for the rings to work...
If resistance turning the engine over by hand would be reflected in horsepower gain it would be lovely...sadly that isn´t happening.



Following the practice used in today's engines especially in the area of piston and ring designs will help improve how our ancient old flatheads perform. Metric width rings already improve the reduction in drag due to the reduction in width. Gas ports are not needed to help the ring seal. As for windage and oil control the typical three piece oil control ring supplied with all pistons today easily eliminate any of those concerns. The days of using old wide and heavy rings has long past. From my experience using the modern style ring packs during my many long distance journeys with the flathead block I have found it to be a perfect combination. Adding to that the hundreds of flathead engines i have built using the modern type ring packs have all worked out really well.
Ronnieroadster
__________________
I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block"
Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
Ronnieroadster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 07:54 PM   #19
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,013
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Low Tension Rings: By the way, I'm not talking about "low tension" oil rings in my usage of Ross pistons and metric rings.

While these definitely have applications in racing and performance builds in general, they also require an engine that is effectively "sealed", usually has a vacuum pump and also probably has a full dry-sump oil system - and an oil pan designed with scrapers and windage trays, etc.. The result is a definite increase in HP - but not exactly a "traditional" setup, or one that is easy on the wallet! LOL
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 08:01 PM   #20
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,842
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

We still don't know what the application is. This migh be a dailey driver that doesn't see 3 k except when clinbing the interstate ramp. The cost of this stuff is getting out of hand, even for the bad stuff.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 08:10 PM   #21
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
We still don't know what the application is. This migh be a dailey driver that doesn't see 3 k except when clinbing the interstate ramp. The cost of this stuff is getting out of hand, even for the bad stuff.
I guess that my point. Why settle for a piston that uses old technology when a little more money gets you a lighter, stronger, piston that uses modern technology?

It's only money. Can't take it with you. Haha!
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 08:21 PM   #22
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,013
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
We still don't know what the application is. This migh be a dailey driver that doesn't see 3 k except when clinbing the interstate ramp. The cost of this stuff is getting out of hand, even for the bad stuff.
Great point Ron! We're all pontificating about various piston/ring combinations and have on clue on the application, the budget, the goals, etc.. But Hey - during lockdown we ALL tend to babble too much.
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-04-2020, 08:44 PM   #23
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

I guess, knowing Tom, I assumed he'd want a snotty flathead. I could be wrong and just hoping he wants a snotty flathead. LOL!
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 11:06 PM   #24
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

A more powerful flattie for my roadster (avatar) is my goal - you know, snotty! Lol! Ok
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 11:27 PM   #25
flatheadmurre
Senior Member
 
flatheadmurre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,045
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Just wanted to point out that you are not going to get a huge gain in HP from the ring pack not even 5% so if on a budget people should know what they get for their money.
And i actually prefer cast pistons if forged is not needed.
Then it´s the top ring that needs to be steel and thin in a performance engine not the second that is shaped for it´s job of controlling the oil and not in contact with the cylinderwall more then partial anyway.
Not here to argue just sharing what little knowledge i have...i like everybody to have facts not sales myths so they can descide for them self.
And now that we talk all in peformance how many is gapping your first and second ring different...and why should you do so ?

Last edited by flatheadmurre; 06-05-2020 at 07:29 AM.
flatheadmurre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 05:31 AM   #26
JWL
Member Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia
Posts: 2,204
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
The extra power myth of the thin ring pack has been dispelled during a number of tests. Perhaps one of the more recent was done by one of the performance TV shows who found little or no power difference on a Chevy V8.


Yes, I do gap first and second rings differently especially where performance is key. It is doubtful most people know why and which direction unless they read and have paid attention to the info in my book.
JWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 08:01 AM   #27
Zeke3
Senior Member
 
Zeke3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Columbus, IN
Posts: 1,401
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWL View Post
Yes, I do gap first and second rings differently especially where performance is key. It is doubtful most people know why and which direction unless they read and have paid attention to the info in my book.
Dang, I missed that detail, or don't remember it, the first time I read through JWL's book. I guess I need to read it again. Is that going to be on the test?
Zeke3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 02:20 PM   #28
Ronnieroadster
Senior Member
 
Ronnieroadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: East Coast in CT
Posts: 1,510
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke3 View Post
Dang, I missed that detail, or don't remember it, the first time I read through JWL's book. I guess I need to read it again. Is that going to be on the test?



A test what test! You dont need no stinking book.
__________________
I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block"
Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
Ronnieroadster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2020, 09:40 PM   #29
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,013
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Ring Gap: I tend to follow the piston/ring manufacturer's recommendations - based on the bore size, ring types and performance level of the engine - and whether or not it is naturally aspirated or under boost. From my perspective, the guys making the rings probably know what they should be gapped at.
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 01:57 AM   #30
flatheadmurre
Senior Member
 
flatheadmurre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,045
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Right stuff in the right place as usual...
I was more in general trying to sort out what the rings do...not sure all has a grip on it.
A lot of people that come into the shop atleast think the second ring has something to do with compression...
First ring is compression...second if you try and set it up to tight to act as compression ring the blowby from first not able to pass by second ends up pushing first ring up and that is not good for sealing...you get what is refered to as ringflutter.
So whatever first ring can´t handle we just have to let go down into crankcase...we want to improve it´s first ring and groove we should look at nothing else.
And sealing of the first ring is gases from compression passing by top of ring pushing it out against cylinderwall...not the tension in the ring...so the ring is basicly wobbling around in the groove and if not ridgid enough we get issues...top rings are the only rings you can put in any way for this reason they have a barrelshaped outside since they go from leaning against bottom to top of groove.
So why do we have 2-3 more rings...can´t just another one handle oil and we get less friction ?
flatheadmurre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 06:39 AM   #31
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,842
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Learn sumpin every day. Wedll said.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 08:22 AM   #32
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,013
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Here is a pretty good article with a bunch of dyno tests on modern/thin ring packages. As JWL noted, there isn't a huge HP increase in switching over, so if cost is your big issue, then stick with the older ring packages. This is a good read . . .

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-storie...t-on-the-dyno/
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 09:04 AM   #33
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Here is a pretty good article with a bunch of dyno tests on modern/thin ring packages. As JWL noted, there isn't a huge HP increase in switching over, so if cost is your big issue, then stick with the older ring packages. This is a good read . . .

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-storie...t-on-the-dyno/
I think the term “huge” is relative to the overall goal. Like I mentioned previously, little percentages add up to a big number eventually. I’d be hard pressed to believe if someone said you’d gain 20 hp by doing three things, many of us would not take advantage of it. 100+ 20 to 120 is a decent jump.

On my build, I wanted to achieve 175 hp or better. I will know shortly if we achieved that goal, but I’m fairly confident we did.

I guess it all boils down to are willing to put in the time, effort and money see smaller gains knowing you'll need to also do it elsewhere in order to get larger, overall net gains.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 06-06-2020 at 09:25 AM.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 09:10 AM   #34
GOSFAST
Senior Member
 
GOSFAST's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,052
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Here is a pretty good article with a bunch of dyno tests on modern/thin ring packages. As JWL noted, there isn't a huge HP increase in switching over, so if cost is your big issue, then stick with the older ring packages. This is a good read . . .

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-storie...t-on-the-dyno/
Hi Dale, not really the best example, you would have to first test a stock "cast-iron" ring build, either a stock 5/64" or in the case of the OEM Flathead a 4-ring piston with a cast 3/32" and 3/16" ring pack, then swap ONLY the pistons/rings to the 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 ring pack.

We've been down this road on the dyno just a few years ago, I can all but guarantee you will see 20+ (nominal) HP with the metric ring setup, assuming the correct bore finish AND a block plate in the program!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's the results from 2 tests, both are OEM Merc builds (4.000" stroke), same C.I., one had some Nylen pistons and (4) cast rings the other had the Ross metrics. The OEM, cast ring/cast piston build, made about 110 HP and the Ross build made very close to 130. The Ross build also had the 2.000" rod journals! We were NOT chasing HP on either build! On a side note, the dynoed build in the ride in my signature below here made 155+ HP with a single (small) Holley.
GOSFAST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 10:25 AM   #35
flatheadmurre
Senior Member
 
flatheadmurre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,045
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Same piston and rotating assembly weight there is no way you can gain 20+ hp in the rings on a 100-150hp engine...sorry just can´t.
So the extra power also came from a lower rotating assembly weight or other modifications.

And before i get chewed at for saying what is refered to as second compression ring isn´t it...sure gases pass by it and it slows down blowby...but it´s a scraper ring in my book.
So first compression...second scraper...third oil...
Then we usually forget that the rings has another job in transfering the heat out of the pistons.
I borrowed the nice pics from a major piston manufacturer.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ring1.jpg (11.0 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg ring2.jpg (18.7 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg ring3.jpg (10.8 KB, 28 views)
flatheadmurre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 07:08 PM   #36
Ronnieroadster
Senior Member
 
Ronnieroadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: East Coast in CT
Posts: 1,510
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Here is a pretty good article with a bunch of dyno tests on modern/thin ring packages. As JWL noted, there isn't a huge HP increase in switching over, so if cost is your big issue, then stick with the older ring packages. This is a good read . . .

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-storie...t-on-the-dyno/



Dale very interesting test with very real results showing there is an advantage to the narrow is better idea. Of course some of us already know that. The way I see it any time an additional 5% of power can be gained from any valve in block configuration its worth the effort. When the peak HP is near 400 thats a huge addition in power.
__________________
I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block"
Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
Ronnieroadster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 08:12 PM   #37
tubman
Senior Member
 
tubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 10,260
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

How can comparing the performance of 4-ring pistons with 3-ring pistons be meaningful when comparing ring size?

Seems like apples and oranges to me.
tubman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2020, 08:32 PM   #38
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubman View Post
How can comparing the performance of 4-ring pistons with 3-ring pistons be meaningful when comparing ring size?

Seems like apples and oranges to me.
I was wondering that as well, seems like you would need almost identical engines (or the same engine with a piston swap) and the same pistons (make and weight, etc) with the different rings (like Ross normal and then metric).
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2020, 02:10 AM   #39
flatheadmurre
Senior Member
 
flatheadmurre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,045
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

There´s been plenty of tests with identical custom order pistons...and they all end up gaining between 5-10hp on a 400+ hp engine.
No one has said thinner rings don´t work.
A real advantage with a nitrided tool steel ring is that it can flex an follow a distorted cylinderwall a lot better then a cast ring...when cylinderwalls get thin and you ad a lot of compression they move.
A moly ring on the other hand is real sensitive to detonation...it doesn´t take much running it badly tuned to damange the rings permanently.
It´s also interesting that first ring is still very low on the modern flathead pistons...the space between crown and first ring will contain fuel that won´t burn...so loss of the power in that amount of fuel.
flatheadmurre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2020, 01:37 PM   #40
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Assuming these number are correct and they scale, that would be somewhere in the 1.5 to 2.5 hp range on a 100 hp flathead. That would be worth something on an all out engine using 200 hp and 3 to 5 hp gain, every little bit helps. But unless the price is right something you might be able to live without on a street engine.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2020, 03:25 AM   #41
JWL
Member Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia
Posts: 2,204
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

And remember, these results come at RPM nearly double what the average Flathead sees.
JWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2020, 07:49 AM   #42
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,842
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

I wonder how piston to cylinder wall clearance has an effect here?It's easy to find out what's to little, but what's too much. AS an old stock car engine builder I varied this in an effert to find out. But running on a short track the engine is not the winning partof the equasion. Sometimes it's the air pressure in the right fron tire.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-10-2020, 02:09 PM   #43
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Thank you again gents for all your thoughts and the impromptu bench racing session ....

Called Red’s and spoke with Victor. What I liked is that they are familiar with the French blocks, actually sold them for a time. What I bought is ....

Stock valve train kit with Lincoln springs
Ross 3-ring pistons @.125 over and metric rings

I have:
4” crank
L100 cam
Original hollow and modern solid Johnson lifters - probably the solids
8ba rods

This will be for my roadster to drive long distances, not raced saved for a few possible runs at the dirt drags out in Colorado and others perhaps. I like the look of a stock looking 59ab motor so the plan is to run a 59ab L100 cam, front mount distributor w/Pertronix upgrade by Charlie NY (don’t worry Charlie - the 8ba distributor will go on the 8ba I will be building!), and I have an original set of 59ab heads that have never been on an engine, shaving them 50 thou if there is the room. I will run a 59ab intake with 2 deuces set progressively on a “Y” adapter just like my present motor.

I know this may not be everyone’s cup of tea but I am using what I have and also planning for two others, another 59ab and the 8ba I spoke of. I am just having fun in the garage building the wife’s 40 Pickup and then several flattie to install in my roadster as a text mule ....
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2020, 03:29 PM   #44
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,144
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg View Post
Thank you again gents for all your thoughts and the impromptu bench racing session ....

Called Red’s and spoke with Victor. What I liked is that they are familiar with the French blocks, actually sold them for a time. What I bought is ....

Stock valve train kit with Lincoln springs
Ross 3-ring pistons @.125 over and metric rings

I have:
4” crank
L100 cam
Original hollow and modern solid Johnson lifters - probably the solids
8ba rods

This will be for my roadster to drive long distances, not raced saved for a few possible runs at the dirt drags out in Colorado and others perhaps. I like the look of a stock looking 59ab motor so the plan is to run a 59ab L100 cam, front mount distributor w/Pertronix upgrade by Charlie NY (don’t worry Charlie - the 8ba distributor will go on the 8ba I will be building!), and I have an original set of 59ab heads that have never been on an engine, shaving them 50 thou if there is the room. I will run a 59ab intake with 2 deuces set progressively on a “Y” adapter just like my present motor.

I know this may not be everyone’s cup of tea but I am using what I have and also planning for two others, another 59ab and the 8ba I spoke of. I am just having fun in the garage building the wife’s 40 Pickup and then several flattie to install in my roadster as a text mule ....
Nice. Can't wait to hear it run. Good luck with the build.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2020, 04:40 PM   #45
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Thanks, Tim!
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2020, 06:35 AM   #46
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,842
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I might suggest that you measure the piston to head clearance before you mill them. Also the L-100 cam has a very high lift so the valve to head clearance will be an issue. Not sure what heads you are using but with the l_100 cam you need all the compression you can get, to improve low speed drivability. To iincrease valve to head clearance, it should be done with a 4 or 5 degree angle to prevent the removal of too much material frm the chamber. Modifying a cylinder head can improve performance when done right.
When using the 65Cc Edelbrock heads , they have a substanel amt of valve clearance. I mill these for .050" valve clearance , then re-dome them. Boosting Cr to aprox 9:1.
You must have a reason to make a modification.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2020, 09:00 AM   #47
Pete Fl/Wi
Senior Member
 
Pete Fl/Wi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 281
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Tim I just had to post I am building my "last" flathead as a spare engine for either my AV8 or 38 coupe. I got a merc engine by luck from local junk yard $250.00 . Lucky the machine shop building short block said every thing checked good. Engine is .40 over now but have not made decision as to what bore to go too. I all ready got from Reds valve train kit and L100 cam which I have experience with in my AV8. My build so far is same as yours. I plan to use Edelbrock heads not sure which ones and Edelbrock 4 barrel intake. In the past I have always used Offy heads and intakes but wanted to try Edelbrock.
Good luck on your build
Pete
Pete Fl/Wi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2020, 10:29 AM   #48
GOSFAST
Senior Member
 
GOSFAST's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,052
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
I wonder how piston to cylinder wall clearance has an effect here?It's easy to find out what's to little, but what's too much. AS an old stock car engine builder I varied this in an effert to find out. But running on a short track the engine is not the winning partof the equasion. Sometimes it's the air pressure in the right fron tire.
Hi Ron, piston/wall is extremely important both for performance and reliability, better ring sell, hence, less "blowby"!

You don't want pistons "rocking" too much, it will affect how the rings are able do their job!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S . Just as important as the P/W clearances are the valve-to-guide clearances, with all the monies invested in builds like seen here I would never think of NOT using some bronze-lined guides with a good set of stainless-steel valves? You get a better valve/seat contact and NEVER seize any valves in the guides, period?
GOSFAST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2020, 12:29 PM   #49
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
I might suggest that you measure the piston to head clearance before you mill them. Also the L-100 cam has a very high lift so the valve to head clearance will be an issue. Not sure what heads you are using but with the l_100 cam you need all the compression you can get, to improve low speed drivability. To iincrease valve to head clearance, it should be done with a 4 or 5 degree angle to prevent the removal of too much material frm the chamber. Modifying a cylinder head can improve performance when done right.
When using the 65Cc Edelbrock heads , they have a substanel amt of valve clearance. I mill these for .050" valve clearance , then re-dome them. Boosting Cr to aprox 9:1.
You must have a reason to make a modification.
Hey Ron - heads will be a brand new set of 59ab heads that have never been mounted. I like the older flattie look more than the 8BA’s in early cars as this is going in my roadster. I am also a 59ab cam and front mount distributor to complete the look. I do plan to measure for clearance and thanks for the heads up on the valve clearance. The French blocks are factory relieved so whatever I can mill them heads, I will do it. Thank you!
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2020, 12:32 PM   #50
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fl/Wi View Post
Tim I just had to post I am building my "last" flathead as a spare engine for either my AV8 or 38 coupe. I got a merc engine by luck from local junk yard $250.00 . Lucky the machine shop building short block said every thing checked good. Engine is .40 over now but have not made decision as to what bore to go too. I all ready got from Reds valve train kit and L100 cam which I have experience with in my AV8. My build so far is same as yours. I plan to use Edelbrock heads not sure which ones and Edelbrock 4 barrel intake. In the past I have always used Offy heads and intakes but wanted to try Edelbrock.
Good luck on your build
Pete
Thanks Pete - I may pick your brain a little bit if you don’t mind. I may have a few questions later on down the road with the build ...

Tom
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2020, 10:32 PM   #51
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,842
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Alot of these modifications are logical, but require accurate neasuring, Althugh we want the most power we can get, A street machine needs to be drivable in local streets and be comfortable dong it. When using a long duration cam the dynamic CR is quite low at low speed > I think I checked the L-100 at alittle over 6:1 with a static CR of 8.6
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2020, 03:40 AM   #52
KiWinUS
Senior Member
 
KiWinUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlotte NC KiWi-L100 available here
Posts: 2,945
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
Alot of these modifications are logical, but require accurate neasuring, Althugh we want the most power we can get, A street machine needs to be drivable in local streets and be comfortable dong it. When using a long duration cam the dynamic CR is quite low at low speed > I think I checked the L-100 at alittle over 6:1 with a static CR of 8.6
It sure ran good you told us in that ambulance Ron.
KiWinUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2020, 09:01 AM   #53
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,842
Default Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components

My love affair with the L-100 was based on the fact that it actually ran that heavt Ambulance quite well, That was in the late 80's and the sound was just right. The vast number of engines I built back then had the L-100 cam. Back then I was a performance minded builder. It didn't take long to find out the pitfalls of the cam. It doesn't work well in small low compression engines. But Richard of FL also proved in the right engine it could also give goor fuel economy . up to that time I wasn't using the vacuum advance on my SBC distributors. I sold a 296ci engine to a fellow with on of these distributors, he sent it to texas where it was converted to electronics and a vacuum advance. Engine was in a 35 PU and the acceleration was scary, engine was still running when he replaced it with a blown 294. Haven't had a ride in that one yet. I was converting these distributors since the 70's but nobody was interested in flatheads then, I even converted one for a 59 block, there is a picture of it in my bood. It might work today because MSD makes a crab cap for the SBC dist. Have to dig that out and see if it works. You have to use a Pontiac dist for that conversion.. I digress, getting old, still putzin.
Gramps
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:19 AM.