The Ford Barn

panhead_pete · 08-09-2022, 08:43 PM

Hi from Japan

After a several month process I have been able to get my Model A registered here and have been loving driving my 31 Banger powered coupe and went for a nice leasurely drive today and noticed a new to me noise.

Got out to investigate and its the water pump/fan shaft. There is quite a bit of end play. I noticed the shaft may have needed greasing so did that with some effect but the end play and noise is still there. It sounds worse in the video (link below) than real life but am guessing it shouldnt be like this. There is no apparent leaks so I guess that's a plus. Do I need to repack this or am I needing to look further. Thanks.

https://youtu.be/GKEX6-ia1vo

Fhane · 08-09-2022, 09:19 PM

Brattons pn 12500 in front of the pump, behind, (kind of inside) the fan pulley is probably what you need. Make sure you are not using a 2 blade steel fan. If necessary get the aluminum one for safety.

old ugly · 08-10-2022, 08:32 AM

pull the belt off and run the engine, just to make sure the noise is the pump.

yes there is a lock collar that can be added to the pump shaft that will limit the endplay.
but there may be more to it than just adding the collar.
if you just add the collar and reinstall the pump, and if you don't check the distance/clearance from the end of the shaft to the casting inside the cylinder head the pump may get damaged.
this is a very basic bit of information. for these repairs the pump has to come off, at that time you should research the procedure for setting those clearances

panhead_pete · 08-10-2022, 05:50 PM

Cheers Fellas. Had thought if Im going that far I should just fit a new leakless pump but reached out to the major vendors and none have stock nor a timeline for getting them.

rotorwrench · 08-10-2022, 06:16 PM

The collar can be installed without removing the pump. The fan has to come off though. This can require removing the radiator.

I'd loosen the belt so that the fan can be turned and end play checked. There is a casting protrusion inside the cylinder head that stops the movement of the shaft but they can wear down so much that the movement is excessive. The bearings can be felt for looseness in the front bearing or the rear bushing while doing the other checks. If it turns free with little or no shake and it doesn't leak water then the end play collar is likely all that would be needed.

panhead_pete · 08-10-2022, 06:20 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

If it turns free with little or no shake and it doesn't leak water then the end play collar is likely all that would be needed.

Thanks rotorwrench. There is no shake nor leak. Just end play. Obviously I've never done one of these before and hopefully I can source a split collar here to make the job even easier.

Where do I fit the collar and should the shaft be pushed back into the engine side of the housing or radiator when fitting?

Thanks
Pete

old ugly · 08-10-2022, 08:11 PM

the shaft may not push back into the head very far as there is a cast rubbing block that is cast into the cylinder head. it is there to limit the rearward movement of the shaft so the impeller does not contact the head.
the normal position for the shaft is just off of that block. but all that could be askew depending on previous repairs and the condition of that block.

old ugly · 08-10-2022, 08:22 PM

post deleted

panhead_pete · 08-12-2022, 11:44 PM

Thanks all. I have fitted a split collar (16mm) and set the end play at .007. Its an interim fix as Im not really comfortable with the collar riding against the pack nut.

Whilst I was doing that checked the fan and its aluminium but does have some play in it too. Will order a fan whilst Im there as freight will be the biggest expense.

In the absence of new leakless pumps being available affordably has anyone used the Bratton unasembled water pump kit?

https://www.brattons.com/30-31-LEAKL...uctinfo/12220/

rotorwrench · 08-13-2022, 09:01 AM

I haven't used their complete pump kit but I've used all the little parts and a new shaft/impeller to rebuild my old cast iron housing.

katy · 08-13-2022, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panhead_pete

Im not really comfortable with the collar riding against the pack nut.

Put a little hi-temp grease in between.

Bob Johnson · 08-13-2022, 12:46 PM

Have you tried putting the collar in front of the casting between the casting and the fan? I have found that with most fans there is enough room to put in the collar and you do not have to use a split collar.

bob

panhead_pete · 08-16-2022, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

Have you tried putting the collar in front of the casting between the casting and the fan? I have found that with most fans there is enough room to put in the collar and you do not have to use a split collar.

bob

Cheers Bob will have a look at that and see if I can. Im guessing I can remove the fan with the pump and radiator in place?

john charlton · 08-16-2022, 06:48 AM

Do not worry about the collar wearing into the pack nut, the fan pulls ahead when the engine is running . I had a lot of end play on my 31 CCPU I could have cured it by removing the pump and fitting a stainless washer on the impellor end . A pain in the butt as you do several this several times to get the right thickness washer . I did it the easy way and fitted a small suitable stainless hose clip which has been on the shaft for years and no pack nut wear has occured when I grease the pump it does get a bit of lube .

John in sunny Suffolk County England

Many years ago I worked in Fukuoka (Hakata) Kyushu loved it there and RHD country !!!

08-09-2022, 08:43 PM	#1
panhead_pete Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Hakuba Nagano Japan Posts: 210	Water Pump shaft end play Hi from Japan After a several month process I have been able to get my Model A registered here and have been loving driving my 31 Banger powered coupe and went for a nice leasurely drive today and noticed a new to me noise. Got out to investigate and its the water pump/fan shaft. There is quite a bit of end play. I noticed the shaft may have needed greasing so did that with some effect but the end play and noise is still there. It sounds worse in the video (link below) than real life but am guessing it shouldnt be like this. There is no apparent leaks so I guess that's a plus. Do I need to repack this or am I needing to look further. Thanks. https://youtu.be/GKEX6-ia1vo __________________ Looking for an unrestored 33 34 3W or 5W coupe. Thanks

08-09-2022, 09:19 PM	#2
Fhane Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Stuart Florida Posts: 148	Re: Water Pump shaft end play Brattons pn 12500 in front of the pump, behind, (kind of inside) the fan pulley is probably what you need. Make sure you are not using a 2 blade steel fan. If necessary get the aluminum one for safety.

08-10-2022, 08:32 AM	#3
old ugly Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: alberta canada Posts: 585	Re: Water Pump shaft end play pull the belt off and run the engine, just to make sure the noise is the pump. yes there is a lock collar that can be added to the pump shaft that will limit the endplay. but there may be more to it than just adding the collar. if you just add the collar and reinstall the pump, and if you don't check the distance/clearance from the end of the shaft to the casting inside the cylinder head the pump may get damaged. this is a very basic bit of information. for these repairs the pump has to come off, at that time you should research the procedure for setting those clearances __________________ old ugly my old father-in-law told me. "listen close when people tell you how to do stuff they may know something. then do it the way you want."

08-10-2022, 05:50 PM	#4
panhead_pete Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Hakuba Nagano Japan Posts: 210	Re: Water Pump shaft end play Cheers Fellas. Had thought if Im going that far I should just fit a new leakless pump but reached out to the major vendors and none have stock nor a timeline for getting them. __________________ Looking for an unrestored 33 34 3W or 5W coupe. Thanks

08-10-2022, 06:16 PM	#5
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: Water Pump shaft end play The collar can be installed without removing the pump. The fan has to come off though. This can require removing the radiator. I'd loosen the belt so that the fan can be turned and end play checked. There is a casting protrusion inside the cylinder head that stops the movement of the shaft but they can wear down so much that the movement is excessive. The bearings can be felt for looseness in the front bearing or the rear bushing while doing the other checks. If it turns free with little or no shake and it doesn't leak water then the end play collar is likely all that would be needed.

08-10-2022, 08:11 PM	#7
old ugly Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: alberta canada Posts: 585	Re: Water Pump shaft end play the shaft may not push back into the head very far as there is a cast rubbing block that is cast into the cylinder head. it is there to limit the rearward movement of the shaft so the impeller does not contact the head. the normal position for the shaft is just off of that block. but all that could be askew depending on previous repairs and the condition of that block. __________________ old ugly my old father-in-law told me. "listen close when people tell you how to do stuff they may know something. then do it the way you want."

08-10-2022, 08:22 PM	#8
old ugly Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: alberta canada Posts: 585	Re: Water Pump shaft end play post deleted __________________ old ugly my old father-in-law told me. "listen close when people tell you how to do stuff they may know something. then do it the way you want."

08-12-2022, 11:44 PM	#9
panhead_pete Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Hakuba Nagano Japan Posts: 210	Re: Water Pump shaft end play Thanks all. I have fitted a split collar (16mm) and set the end play at .007. Its an interim fix as Im not really comfortable with the collar riding against the pack nut. Whilst I was doing that checked the fan and its aluminium but does have some play in it too. Will order a fan whilst Im there as freight will be the biggest expense. In the absence of new leakless pumps being available affordably has anyone used the Bratton unasembled water pump kit? https://www.brattons.com/30-31-LEAKL...uctinfo/12220/ __________________ Looking for an unrestored 33 34 3W or 5W coupe. Thanks

08-13-2022, 09:01 AM	#10
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: Water Pump shaft end play I haven't used their complete pump kit but I've used all the little parts and a new shaft/impeller to rebuild my old cast iron housing.

08-13-2022, 12:46 PM	#12
Bob Johnson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: California Posts: 979	Re: Water Pump shaft end play Have you tried putting the collar in front of the casting between the casting and the fan? I have found that with most fans there is enough room to put in the collar and you do not have to use a split collar. bob

08-16-2022, 06:48 AM	#14
john charlton Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,304	Re: Water Pump shaft end play Do not worry about the collar wearing into the pack nut, the fan pulls ahead when the engine is running . I had a lot of end play on my 31 CCPU I could have cured it by removing the pump and fitting a stainless washer on the impellor end . A pain in the butt as you do several this several times to get the right thickness washer . I did it the easy way and fitted a small suitable stainless hose clip which has been on the shaft for years and no pack nut wear has occured when I grease the pump it does get a bit of lube . John in sunny Suffolk County England Many years ago I worked in Fukuoka (Hakata) Kyushu loved it there and RHD country !!!