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Old 06-12-2018, 06:48 PM   #1
deuce295
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Default Steering question

I would really appreciate some assistance with a steering question. I am building a 28 roadster that is not totally stock but my frame is stock and I am using a two tooth steering box. I have a 33 Ford front axle with 37 (round) spindles with 40 Ford brakes. Anyway way my question is, does a stock model A steering wheel rotate the same number of turns from straight ahead to the left and right stops. I am finding mine will rotate farther turning to the left than to the right. I keep thinking it is due to the Ackerman set up of the spindles. If someone could just let me know if stock the wheel rotates the same number of turns left and right I would really appreciate it. I'm starting to loose my mind trying to set it up for equal number of turns. Thank you.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:56 PM   #2
Corley
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Default Re: Steering question

Should be equal both ways. You may need to adjust the drag link's length for this. The tie rod is adjusted for toe in only.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:31 PM   #3
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Steering question

Set up the steering box according to the instructions in the SERVICE BULLETINS.
Sounds like the centering adjustment is off center.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:45 PM   #4
Chuck Sea/Tac
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Default Re: Steering question

Our club was working on a members car and had the same problem. Turned out to be a V8 drag link.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Steering question

Appreciate the input from everyone. The drag link is the stock model A so I think I should probably go through the steering box adjustments and make sure I didn't goof that up. Thanks
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:13 AM   #6
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Steering question

Deuce,
Steering box adjustments are TRICKY, sometimes you have to TRY & TRY AGAIN!
I set Minervas' with NO steering wheel slack & that Old Gal would "DART", if you ran over a CIGARETTE BUTT!---Backed it off a BIT & it was almost like on AUTO-PILOT, BUT, she kept taking off for our BEAUTIFUL COAST--LOL
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:21 AM   #7
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Default Re: Steering question

You may need to make an adjustable drag link. My car was off and the only way to center it was to make an adjustable drag link. This will help your car feel more stable because the steering box is tighter in the center than when the wheels are turned. If your steering is centered your car won't wander as much because the box is tighter.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:26 AM   #8
denniskliesen
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Default Re: Steering question

Center your steering wheel with the drag link OFF both ends. Center your front wheels. Measure the distance between the center of the balls. Find or make a drag link to fit.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:46 AM   #9
deuce295
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Default Re: Steering question

As this is not a stock setup I have noticed with the steering arm that is mounted to the spindle has the ball end (drag link connection) directly over the centerline of the axle. In this configuration the travel of the ball end from the center of the axle travels further when going to left than going to the right since the Ackerman angles of this combination allows the wheel on the inside of the turn to rotate further than the outside wheel. I am trying to move the relationship of the ball end to the centerline of the axle to try and split the differences but not quite getting it yet. I keep thinking I am doing something very obviously wrong as people have been doing these swaps for many years and I have not heard of this issue. I really appreciate everyone's time and input on this. It will be solved at some point. Thank you. I'll check again maybe I have the Ackerman angles goofed up but it seemed as everything lined up with the center of the rear axle.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce295 View Post
As this is not a stock setup I have noticed with the steering arm that is mounted to the spindle has the ball end (drag link connection) directly over the centerline of the axle. In this configuration the travel of the ball end from the center of the axle travels further when going to left than going to the right since the Ackerman angles of this combination allows the wheel on the inside of the turn to rotate further than the outside wheel. I am trying to move the relationship of the ball end to the centerline of the axle to try and split the differences but not quite getting it yet. I keep thinking I am doing something very obviously wrong as people have been doing these swaps for many years and I have not heard of this issue. I really appreciate everyone's time and input on this. It will be solved at some point. Thank you. I'll check again maybe I have the Ackerman angles goofed up but it seemed as everything lined up with the center of the rear axle.
I'd compare the travel of your steering box arm to the travel of your spindle arm from stop to stop. It's possible your steering arm travels a shorter or longer distance. Your going to want the gearbox arm to travel slightly longer distance that spindle arm. Going back to my first response, find the center of the travel for your spindle arm and then measure the distance of the balls when your steering box arm is centered. It's possible your spindle arm travels more in one direction than the other?
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Steering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce295 View Post
As this is not a stock setup I have noticed with the steering arm that is mounted to the spindle has the ball end (drag link connection) directly over the centerline of the axle. In this configuration the travel of the ball end from the center of the axle travels further when going to left than going to the right since the Ackerman angles of this combination allows the wheel on the inside of the turn to rotate further than the outside wheel. I am trying to move the relationship of the ball end to the centerline of the axle to try and split the differences but not quite getting it yet. I keep thinking I am doing something very obviously wrong as people have been doing these swaps for many years and I have not heard of this issue. I really appreciate everyone's time and input on this. It will be solved at some point. Thank you. I'll check again maybe I have the Ackerman angles goofed up but it seemed as everything lined up with the center of the rear axle.
If the arms on the spindles are set for the correct Ackerman angles on both spindles, the drag link arm should provide equal turning off an outside wheel in either direction, when the drag link am on the spindle is centered over the axle. You can eliminate your confusion if you only consider the outside wheel, regardless of which direction you are turning. I think your confusion comes when you think in terms of only one wheel instead of thinking in terms of the outside (or inside) wheel. Hard to put in words, easy to actually do.

Note:. When turning right, the left wheel is the outside wheel, when turning left, the right wheel is the outside wheel.
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Steering question

But the steering arm is connected to one spindle. Turning left its an inside wheel and turning right its an outside wheel. The tie rod connects them together but the inside wheel is turned to a greater angle than the outside wheel thereby the steering arm moves through more of its arc when its an inside wheel than an outside wheel. Obviously I am not doing something right as it seems no one else has run into this. I'll look it over when I can get back out in the shop. Thank you, appreciate everyones thoughts.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:55 PM   #13
Corley
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Default Re: Steering question

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Originally Posted by deuce295 View Post
But the steering arm is connected to one spindle. Turning left its an inside wheel and turning right its an outside wheel. The tie rod connects them together but the inside wheel is turned to a greater angle than the outside wheel thereby the steering arm moves through more of its arc when its an inside wheel than an outside wheel. Obviously I am not doing something right as it seems no one else has run into this. I'll look it over when I can get back out in the shop. Thank you, appreciate everyones thoughts.
You are really over thinking all this. Just make sure your steering wheel is centered when the wheels point straight ahead (with 1/16" toe in, of course), and it will drive right.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Steering question

A shortened steering arm can cause the problem you are having and an adjustable drag link can solve the problem. These are available from "machine Girl" all new cnc machined $140.00 + shipping. inc guts.

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Old 06-13-2018, 10:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: Steering question

deuce295....I think you might have posted on another site with the same question? In post #9 you hit it exactly right with what's causing your problem. Since the drag link angles outward from the centerline of the frame, the stock Model A steering arm has the arm/drag link pivot slightly ahead of the vertical axle centerline to form a 90 degree angle from the kingpin to the pivot of the steering arm/drag link pivot back to the pitman arm pivot with the wheels straight ahead and steering box centered. I'm guessing you have a regular aftermarket "wishbone" type steering arm on the later spindles that has the drag link pivot directly above the axle centerline. That doesn't provide the 90 degree angle "centered" relationship so the geometry and movement is not the same in both directions. You're probably not nearly the first one who has had this issue but you might be one of a few who noticed it and want to do something about it if possible.


I'm working on my Model A front end the last few days and the stock steering arm/drag link pivot point is about 3/4" to 1" ahead of the axle centerline on my '31.


Lynn
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:10 AM   #16
deuce295
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Default Re: Steering question

Hey Lynn, yeah I was asking on the HAMB also and I thought I pretty much had it by moving the pivot point about 3/4 inch forward but got a little better but still playing with it. Probably am over thinking this but I just find it kind of a challenge to make it work. I wish I had more time to work on it. Since I have no access to a stock model A my original question was wether a stock system turns the same number of rotations left and right and it sounds as though it does so I know it can be done. So I'm just playing with it to try and get to all work the way I would like. I built an adjustable drag link and am playing with that too. Be interesting to see what the combination will finally be. Appreciate the input from everyone.
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