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Old 06-07-2018, 11:05 PM   #41
kd4lok
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Default Re: Beware

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Geez, quite a few companies sell "unfinished" products, don't they?


Sheetmetal patch panels come unfinished and require shaping prior to welding in. New doors for roadsters & phaetons are only partially assembled and tack-welded together, and require fitting & finishing before painting. Wood kits come unfinished and require holes to be drilled and notches to be made. Bushings for many items in a Model-A require finishing. Brake drums must be machined before using, and brake shoes require arcing prior to using. Floor mats require trimming, window channel requires cutting to the correct length, Upholstery components like windlace, panels, etc. all require cutting to length and finishing. Fender welt requires cutting. Frame welt requires cutting & punching holes. How about radiator hoses, or fuel lines, or...?? I could go one, but so much of our hobby is designed around finishing or modifying what we purchase. Rarely is anything ready to install right out of the box or package. Now understand, it could be ….however Model-A people are too cheap to pay the price to have it come 'ready to use'!


In the case of the radiator, I guess I just don't get what folks are bitching about in this thread. There are so many components in Model-A restoration where the manufacturer will custom-make to exacting fits if you provide exact measurements and specifications of your needs HOWEVER it requires effort and pre-planning on your part. It seems most here are too lazy and are seeming expecting/demanding a little too much without the willingness to put forth a little effort.


For example, if you want a glass kit, you can order one and hope it fits (-which all of them usually don't) -or you can send the Glazier detailed measurements and they will cut each glass piece for an exact fit. The same goes for upholstery. You can have the kit supplier sew-up a generic kit and when you receive it you hope it fits, --OR you send them the measurements of your springs, panels, bow locations, etc., and they will custom sew a kit that looks perfect when installed. How about a wood kit, you can let them custom cut to your body, --or you accept the wood however it comes. As mentioned above, in the case of the radiator, if you send your radiator shell and hose sizes, you will get a very nice piece. Blaming someone else for something you were "hoping for" or expecting should have never been a reason to start this topic from my vantage point.
Brent,
I have enjoyed reading and learning from your posts since joining this forum. However, I find your position on this thread disturbing. You have criticized the Model A community as being too cheap to pay for a component or assembly that correctly meets the need with respect to form, fit, and function and stressed the need for customers to become more involved in accurately specifying what they really want or need. For a vehicle that has been around for 90 years, is it really too much to expect that a part ordered from one of the several suppliers will be received as advertised. Unless customers complain about parts that do not fit and/or poor service, nothing will ever improve.
Sorry, my fellow Tennessean, but I must disagree with you on this one.
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Old 06-07-2018, 11:33 PM   #42
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Default Re: Beware

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Originally Posted by kd4lok View Post
Brent,
I have enjoyed reading and learning from your posts since joining this forum. However, I find your position on this thread disturbing. You have criticized the Model A community as being too cheap to pay for a component or assembly that correctly meets the need with respect to form, fit, and function and stressed the need for customers to become more involved in accurately specifying what they really want or need. For a vehicle that has been around for 90 years, is it really too much to expect that a part ordered from one of the several suppliers will be received as advertised. Unless customers complain about parts that do not fit and/or poor service, nothing will ever improve.
Sorry, my fellow Tennessean, but I must disagree with you on this one.

He is right about being cheap, call a vendor that has good, better, and best and ask them which they sell the most of, they will tell you good (which most times aint that good).


I do agree with you that if a vendor advertises a part as being made to factory drawings it really should be made to factory drawings. We should not have to spell out exactly the dimensions of parts, referring to, and possibly even including copies of factory drawings to a vender that has been in business for many years.


With that said, who would know better then a person that restores cars, and mostly A and T's, that the vendors of the parts are lying, no let me change that to wrong, about what they provide.
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Old 06-08-2018, 07:08 AM   #43
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Default Re: Beware

I have a Berg radiator in my Roadster (2011), and a BW in my Cabriolet (2015) and both are good products. While I agree that for the price we pay for either of them they should be right, sometimes our other repop parts don't fit too well so we have to make adjustments. That said, a friction tape repair doesn't cut it in my book! I would either look for a smaller hose, or expand the outlet.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:05 AM   #44
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Default Re: Beware

Wasn't it Henry F who started this whole "standardized parts, so they all fit properly" thing? (And that was before we had all these free measuring tapes from Harbor Fright!)

Attitude? That is a whole different ball of wax. In customer support, when I meet a bad or uncooperative attitude, I find a new vender. Amen (That means, "End of story" for you guys who quit going to church when your mom stopped twisting your ear.).

PS By the way, if you have decent tanks, you can probably do a recore for half the price if it's not a high point car. I use Hart radiator in Kelso WA. Old school, and quality work on my Avanti rad., looks exactly like the original, $299.00. Ford tractor rad came out fine too, same price if I recall correctly, but at my rather advanced age, the Mrs tells me everyday how I've remembered something wrong (see, she is perfect, you know. Lucky for me she does not read this forum!)
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:34 AM   #45
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Default Re: Beware

I have purchased about 15 new radiators over the last ten years from Brassworks and have not had any of the issues described in this thread. The only modifications I have made to any of them is slightly bend the bottom shroud bracket to get the best fit to the hood.
Brassworks: My experience has been only good.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:02 AM   #46
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Default Re: Beware

As indicated in the 'other' thread, BW determined, after examining Ford prints, that the outlet size on their '30 and '31 radiators was too small. They said they would change them to the same size as the '28 and '29 outlets - which were already correct.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:48 PM   #47
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Default Re: Beware

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Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
Know of a guy who tried to install a new Brassworks rad. Only problem is lower outlet way too small, hose way too loose. Beware
My 1930 Radiator, on the car I purchased just was beyond use. The car had been a cosmetic showroom vehicle and not really used. I did some looking around, and found a fellow on ebay, which can be kind of scary, but, I took a chance and bought a radiator from him. He is in Crystal Lake, Illinois. The radiator was a little over $500 plus shipping and came with a warranty. Installation of this radiator showed up one difference in the top neck length but other than that a perfect fit, and no more overheating. It has 9 fins per inch flat fin style, and has three rows of about 100 tubes ( a bit more than the one I took off). And all the hoses fit perfectly and comparing apples and oranges here, Brassworks wants about $600 for their modern pipe radiator.

For some that are just getting into the joy of working on and repairing of Model A's, some new parts made for model A's some times require some TLC and ingenuity to get them fitting right.
Here is the title on ebay of the radiator I purchased! His feedback is 100%
"Brand NEW Ford Model A Radiator HEAVY DUTY 1930 1931 Aftermarket BRASS & COPPER"
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: Beware

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Originally Posted by DHZIEMAN View Post
My 1930 Radiator, on the car I purchased just was beyond use. The car had been a cosmetic showroom vehicle and not really used. I did some looking around, and found a fellow on ebay, which can be kind of scary, but, I took a chance and bought a radiator from him. He is in Crystal Lake, Illinois. The radiator was a little over $500 plus shipping and came with a warranty. Installation of this radiator showed up one difference in the top neck length but other than that a perfect fit, and no more overheating. It has 9 fins per inch flat fin style, and has three rows of about 100 tubes ( a bit more than the one I took off). And all the hoses fit perfectly and comparing apples and oranges here, Brassworks wants about $600 for their modern pipe radiator.

For some that are just getting into the joy of working on and repairing of Model A's, some new parts made for model A's some times require some TLC and ingenuity to get them fitting right.
Here is the title on ebay of the radiator I purchased! His feedback is 100%
"Brand NEW Ford Model A Radiator HEAVY DUTY 1930 1931 Aftermarket BRASS & COPPER"

His prices must have gone up - the 9 fin per inch version is now listed at $585 and the 6 fin per inch version at $530.
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Old 06-14-2018, 04:50 PM   #49
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Default Re: Beware

This was addressed on the other forum. Its always best to call us directly as we do not monitor the forums with the frequency we would like.



06-04-2018, 05:27 PM


An issue was raised regarding a dimension on a 1930-31 lower outlet and/or hose connection. I appreciate your patience while I collected all relevant information. The purchaser (Mitch) notified us and then returned the radiator to the distributor he bought it from. He has been refunded and has posted on his forum. We stopped all Model A production for a few days to investigate.

In the absence of a dimension on the Ford radiator prints we take the dimension from the OE radiators we have collected. This is the case of the lower hose connections. The dimension of the lower hose outlet on several 1930-31 Fords we have measures 1.6875-1.7”. We have relied on this dimension for years and have not made any changes to the specification. We believe the radiators to be original Ford based the consistency of all other dimensions, the die stamped parts and core construction.

With help from The Henry Ford Museum we have identified six prints related to the lower hoses used in Model As. The part was revised several times between 1927 and 1949 and we have procured and reviewed the final print dates for the lower outlet of each Model A production year. The May 1930 Ford prints show 1-5/8”D, 1-3/4”D and 1-13/16”D. One would immediately presume that the 1-5/8” is the ID of the formed part and the 1-3/4” is the OD of the formed part and the 1-13/16” is the OD of the rolled bead. This would suggest a .0625” wall thickness and yet the Ford print also has a material callout of soft brass #17 .042 - .046. This is curious. The 1-5/8” might also indicate the leading edge of the radius which would restrict, albeit marginally, the flow rate.

Additionally we reviewed the prints of hoses and the return pipes. The ID from the Ford prints of the hoses is 1-3/4”. We also collected and dimensioned the two of the three available hoses sold to Model A aftermarket. The third has not arrived. In fitment tests, the hoses tested fit over the present tube and bead and all would secure with a hose clamp and naturally did fit more “snug” with the 1-3/4”.

We would encourage anyone installing a radiator to measure the ID of the hose they intend to use before they replace their hoses.

Based on our interpretation of the information from Ford in the outlet, hose, return pipe, the size of hoses sold in the aftermarket we are going to call the lower outlet 1-3/4” OD and the bead 1-13/16” OD and we will grow our outlet to this specification in the 1930-31 radiators. The 1928-29 OE radiators measured 1-3/4”, the prints indicate 1-3/4”and we have always used this size so there will be no change.

Thank you to Jim Orr at The Henry Ford Museum for expediting the print request, Vince Falter at FordGarage.com for his helpful information and time dimensioning his collection of OE return pipes, the hose suppliers for sending samples and Jeff Kichline at Brattons for sharing various Ford prints from their collection. And, lastly, thanks to Mitch for calling it to our attention.


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Old 06-14-2018, 10:18 PM   #50
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Default Re: Beware

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brassworks View Post
This was addressed on the other forum. Its always best to call us directly as we do not monitor the forums with the frequency we would like.



06-04-2018, 05:27 PM


An issue was raised regarding a dimension on a 1930-31 lower outlet and/or hose connection. I appreciate your patience while I collected all relevant information. The purchaser (Mitch) notified us and then returned the radiator to the distributor he bought it from. He has been refunded and has posted on his forum. We stopped all Model A production for a few days to investigate.

In the absence of a dimension on the Ford radiator prints we take the dimension from the OE radiators we have collected. This is the case of the lower hose connections. The dimension of the lower hose outlet on several 1930-31 Fords we have measures 1.6875-1.7”. We have relied on this dimension for years and have not made any changes to the specification. We believe the radiators to be original Ford based the consistency of all other dimensions, the die stamped parts and core construction.

With help from The Henry Ford Museum we have identified six prints related to the lower hoses used in Model As. The part was revised several times between 1927 and 1949 and we have procured and reviewed the final print dates for the lower outlet of each Model A production year. The May 1930 Ford prints show 1-5/8”D, 1-3/4”D and 1-13/16”D. One would immediately presume that the 1-5/8” is the ID of the formed part and the 1-3/4” is the OD of the formed part and the 1-13/16” is the OD of the rolled bead. This would suggest a .0625” wall thickness and yet the Ford print also has a material callout of soft brass #17 .042 - .046. This is curious. The 1-5/8” might also indicate the leading edge of the radius which would restrict, albeit marginally, the flow rate.

Additionally we reviewed the prints of hoses and the return pipes. The ID from the Ford prints of the hoses is 1-3/4”. We also collected and dimensioned the two of the three available hoses sold to Model A aftermarket. The third has not arrived. In fitment tests, the hoses tested fit over the present tube and bead and all would secure with a hose clamp and naturally did fit more “snug” with the 1-3/4”.

We would encourage anyone installing a radiator to measure the ID of the hose they intend to use before they replace their hoses.

Based on our interpretation of the information from Ford in the outlet, hose, return pipe, the size of hoses sold in the aftermarket we are going to call the lower outlet 1-3/4” OD and the bead 1-13/16” OD and we will grow our outlet to this specification in the 1930-31 radiators. The 1928-29 OE radiators measured 1-3/4”, the prints indicate 1-3/4”and we have always used this size so there will be no change.

Thank you to Jim Orr at The Henry Ford Museum for expediting the print request, Vince Falter at FordGarage.com for his helpful information and time dimensioning his collection of OE return pipes, the hose suppliers for sending samples and Jeff Kichline at Brattons for sharing various Ford prints from their collection. And, lastly, thanks to Mitch for calling it to our attention.




This is what all manufacturers should do. Kudos to Brassworks for spending the time and money to research a problem and pledge to fix it!
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:33 AM   #51
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Default Re: Beware

Hello BW.
I guess there is no factory print for the recovery tank I purchased from you. That must be the reason that you didn't have any holes in the mounting tabs. I don't know why I expected to receive a finished part.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:42 PM   #52
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Chris, he doesn't build to the prints as he said in his 1st post on the forum on 6/17/2010... He builds to "originals" he had on hand. Wait, but then he said he builds to prints...and Brent says you should expect to do work on parts you buy from vendors... Yesterday "the brassworks" said this was addressed on the other forum, but hasn't posted in 13 months....The words of the day " CUSTOMER SERVICE". SMH this problem should have been researched when the first customer actually went to the trouble to file a complaint with the BBB, Years ago.....asking only for there money back. That would have been a time to pledge and fix the problems. Puff puff pass....
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Old 10-03-2018, 07:24 PM   #53
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Sorry we missed this comment on holes in recovery tanks. There is no Ford drawing for a recovery tank because they were non pressure systems. If you order a pressurized radiator and a recovery tank we mount everything. If we ship you one after the fact, we leave it undrilled with the expectation you would prefer the option to mount it where you want. That's the safest way.



Mark DeRoseau. To clarify, we use prints we have. If there is an omission of information or conflicting information we use patterns.



I am sorry you are so displeased with our forum posting frequency. Its far too infrequent but to be honest I do not have the time to troll the forums. If I find out about forum issues its usually from a past customer emailing us or calling us to give us a heads up that someone out there has used the forum as an echo chamber. We try to address it but prefer a telephone call.


With regard to puff puff pass ? I had to look this up. I am not sure what drugs or drug use have to do with this antique car forum or its topics. Snarky off topic comments help no one. Please get off your computer and go drive your car. Help a friend fix theirs. Encourage a kid to get his hands dirty in the hobby.
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Old 10-03-2018, 08:18 PM   #54
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Wow, was willing to give Brassworks leeway, explanations seemed reasonable. I know how tough it can be with customers. Do not think that last paragraph helps, never a good thing to call out a customer, especially in writing on a forum. Maybe I am not interpreting it correctly. But that is how I interpreted it.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:11 AM   #55
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Wow, was willing to give Brassworks leeway, explanations seemed reasonable. I know how tough it can be with customers. Do not think that last paragraph helps, never a good thing to call out a customer, especially in writing on a forum. Maybe I am not interpreting it correctly. But that is how I interpreted it.


This unfortunately is likely a product of only being able to read posted verbiage and not being able to see facial expressions or body language to know the intent of the poster. I know that my posts above were taken out of my intended context and I was slammed for it. Hopefully Mark was not in a bad mood when that was written and this was just interpreted wrong. I would encourage you and others to keep an open mind, and when the time comes to purchase a new radiator, go with the manufacturer that you feel gives you the best value for your specific needs.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:22 AM   #56
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WOW! Some really thin skinned folks here. I am a happy customer and continue to recommend BRASSWORKS. I have heard nothing but good from fellow Sierra Chapter M.A.F.C.A. members that continue to do business with BRASSWORKS.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:48 AM   #57
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Looks like I needed to construct my reply a little better. I reacted, should have slowed down and thought about things more. From reviews I know Brassworks has an excellent product once installed. My reaction was solely aimed at the response possibly fueling a PR fire when engaging a customer this way. I have been in this situation myself since I worked in Technical and Customer support for 20 years.


I apologize to Brassworks, did not mean to attack their reputation.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:56 PM   #58
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Default Re: Beware

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Looks like I needed to construct my reply a little better. I reacted, should have slowed down and thought about things more. From reviews I know Brassworks has an excellent product once installed. My reaction was solely aimed at the response possibly fueling a PR fire when engaging a customer this way. I have been in this situation myself since I worked in Technical and Customer support for 20 years.


I apologize to Brassworks, did not mean to attack their reputation.

To late. The damage is done. By the way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,i am vary happy with my Brassworks Radiator.
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Old 10-04-2018, 01:40 PM   #59
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Now maybe its me who is not interpreting it correctly. I perceived puff puff pass as a slight against the company, me, the employees or Californians in general. I honestly don't know what it means now but I am pretty confident it has nothing to do with Model As.



Apologies all around.
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Old 10-04-2018, 01:43 PM   #60
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After some serious soul searching, I went with a closed system and recovery tank from Brassworks. They hand make them to order and Berg's was out of the range I wanted to spend and I didn't see a closed radiator option. No more spitting hot fluid out the top cap and no more fluid loss out the overflow seemed to be a good idea, plus one can go water-less if I want. I doubt a max of 4 psi will hurt the engine and if the head gasket can't take that, it needed replacing anyway. http://www.thebrassworks.net/shop/Re...7a143a0b3ea2c7

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