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Old 06-01-2018, 08:41 PM   #21
Benson
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Default Re: Beware

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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
I have never read about this problem with brassworks radiators in the past. What has changed I wonder?

Someone said on FB or VFF that there was an ownership change and after that the new "management" style was introduced!!

Sounds very similar to the attitude at a well known company.

They make some very good parts BUT they are NOT open to suggestions on how to improve and correct errors in their parts.

Last edited by Benson; 06-06-2018 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:18 PM   #22
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Buy a Berg if you want a BS free experience.

http://www.bergsradiator.com/images/...A_Radiator.pdf

Berg I believe attends Hershey and Chicken-shay (Chickasaw) so pick it up there to save on shipping.
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Old 06-04-2018, 07:51 AM   #23
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Default Re: Beware

There have been several posts from satisfied BW customers referencing purchases made years ago. The only posts referencing recent purchases have been complaints. Obviously something in the manufacturing process has changed. I understand the company has changed hands. 1 + 1 still equals 2
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Old 06-05-2018, 01:48 AM   #24
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There have been several posts from satisfied BW customers referencing purchases made years ago. The only posts referencing recent purchases have been complaints. Obviously something in the manufacturing process has changed. I understand the company has changed hands. 1 + 1 still equals 2

I agree.
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: Beware

I have experienced the rudeness from Brassworks also. I just don't use them anymore. No excuse for rudeness.
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:35 AM   #26
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Default Re: Beware

BW has responded to the other thread. They did a lot of research, and have made changes to their production.
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Old 06-05-2018, 01:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Beware

I bought a surge tank from BW. It fits between the core and the shell. Nicely made but they didn't bother to drill holes in the mounting tabs. Why would they sell an unfinished product?
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Old 06-06-2018, 11:44 AM   #28
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I bought a surge tank from BW. It fits between the core and the shell. Nicely made but they didn't bother to drill holes in the mounting tabs. Why would they sell an unfinished product?

Geez, quite a few companies sell "unfinished" products, don't they?


Sheetmetal patch panels come unfinished and require shaping prior to welding in. New doors for roadsters & phaetons are only partially assembled and tack-welded together, and require fitting & finishing before painting. Wood kits come unfinished and require holes to be drilled and notches to be made. Bushings for many items in a Model-A require finishing. Brake drums must be machined before using, and brake shoes require arcing prior to using. Floor mats require trimming, window channel requires cutting to the correct length, Upholstery components like windlace, panels, etc. all require cutting to length and finishing. Fender welt requires cutting. Frame welt requires cutting & punching holes. How about radiator hoses, or fuel lines, or...?? I could go one, but so much of our hobby is designed around finishing or modifying what we purchase. Rarely is anything ready to install right out of the box or package. Now understand, it could be ….however Model-A people are too cheap to pay the price to have it come 'ready to use'!


In the case of the radiator, I guess I just don't get what folks are bitching about in this thread. There are so many components in Model-A restoration where the manufacturer will custom-make to exacting fits if you provide exact measurements and specifications of your needs HOWEVER it requires effort and pre-planning on your part. It seems most here are too lazy and are seeming expecting/demanding a little too much without the willingness to put forth a little effort.


For example, if you want a glass kit, you can order one and hope it fits (-which all of them usually don't) -or you can send the Glazier detailed measurements and they will cut each glass piece for an exact fit. The same goes for upholstery. You can have the kit supplier sew-up a generic kit and when you receive it you hope it fits, --OR you send them the measurements of your springs, panels, bow locations, etc., and they will custom sew a kit that looks perfect when installed. How about a wood kit, you can let them custom cut to your body, --or you accept the wood however it comes. As mentioned above, in the case of the radiator, if you send your radiator shell and hose sizes, you will get a very nice piece. Blaming someone else for something you were "hoping for" or expecting should have never been a reason to start this topic from my vantage point.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:04 PM   #29
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Brent,
I have read this complete thread and completely agree with everything you are saying. Do remember reading a past thread that bashed over this same topic.

Where I think the difference lies........... is the point of rudeness.
Nobody enjoys spending their well earned money and being treated rudely. That seems to be a common theme here.

I have had absolutely no experience with BW and dont have an opinion either way.
Just what I am reading here.
All points seem to be valid.
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Old 06-06-2018, 01:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: Beware

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Geez, quite a few companies sell "unfinished" products, don't they?


Sheetmetal patch panels come unfinished and require shaping prior to welding in. New doors for roadsters & phaetons are only partially assembled and tack-welded together, and require fitting & finishing before painting. Wood kits come unfinished and require holes to be drilled and notches to be made. Bushings for many items in a Model-A require finishing. Brake drums must be machined before using, and brake shoes require arcing prior to using. Floor mats require trimming, window channel requires cutting to the correct length, Upholstery components like windlace, panels, etc. all require cutting to length and finishing. Fender welt requires cutting. Frame welt requires cutting & punching holes. How about radiator hoses, or fuel lines, or...?? I could go one, but so much of our hobby is designed around finishing or modifying what we purchase. Rarely is anything ready to install right out of the box or package. Now understand, it could be ….however Model-A people are too cheap to pay the price to have it come 'ready to use'!


In the case of the radiator, I guess I just don't get what folks are bitching about in this thread. There are so many components in Model-A restoration where the manufacturer will custom-make to exacting fits if you provide exact measurements and specifications of your needs HOWEVER it requires effort and pre-planning on your part. It seems most here are too lazy and are seeming expecting/demanding a little too much without the willingness to put forth a little effort.


For example, if you want a glass kit, you can order one and hope it fits (-which all of them usually don't) -or you can send the Glazier detailed measurements and they will cut each glass piece for an exact fit. The same goes for upholstery. You can have the kit supplier sew-up a generic kit and when you receive it you hope it fits, --OR you send them the measurements of your springs, panels, bow locations, etc., and they will custom sew a kit that looks perfect when installed. How about a wood kit, you can let them custom cut to your body, --or you accept the wood however it comes. As mentioned above, in the case of the radiator, if you send your radiator shell and hose sizes, you will get a very nice piece. Blaming someone else for something you were "hoping for" or expecting should have never been a reason to start this topic from my vantage point.

I disagree! When the manufacturer states, "Each radiator is tested with an original Ford shell to assure general fit, appropriate neck placement and accurate mounting bracket placement. " and it does not fit or is missing holes are you saying I only have myself to blame?

If a vendor advertises proper fit and finish on ANY product and it is not I guess that's my fault as well.

If I send you a Ford to restore and you send me back a Chevy I guess that's my fault as well since I expected my Ford back but did not specify it in the contract.

In this case, the manufacturer stopped all manufacture of the radiator in question, double checked his information, spent money to receive rush research documentation, found they actually were making it wrong and promised to make them correct with the correct dimensions from this point forward. That is a manufacturer I will deal with! We all make mistakes but if we follow your advice above, Mitch should have just sent all the measurements to them and had them make, and charge him, for a custom radiator as we should not expect them to provide what they advertise.
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Old 06-06-2018, 04:36 PM   #31
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Default Re: Beware

I have a Brassworks radiator in my '29. Bought it 2 years ago and aside from a slight problem fitting it into my repro shell, it works just fine. I'm very happy with it. Ned
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Old 06-06-2018, 06:47 PM   #32
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Default Re: Beware

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronn View Post
Brent,
I have read this complete thread and completely agree with everything you are saying. Do remember reading a past thread that bashed over this same topic.

Where I think the difference lies........... is the point of rudeness.
Nobody enjoys spending their well earned money and being treated rudely. That seems to be a common theme here.

I have had absolutely no experience with BW and dont have an opinion either way.
Just what I am reading here.
All points seem to be valid.


I am often construed as rude & arrogant. I have no problem with that because I tell the facts and let others make decision based on their own agenda. Since we were not there to hear the tone of both sides, we are only going on hearsay as to who was rude. We live in a different society now where the customer is not always right.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
I disagree! When the manufacturer states, "Each radiator is tested with an original Ford shell to assure general fit, appropriate neck placement and accurate mounting bracket placement. " and it does not fit or is missing holes are you saying I only have myself to blame?

If a vendor advertises proper fit and finish on ANY product and it is not I guess that's my fault as well.

If I send you a Ford to restore and you send me back a Chevy I guess that's my fault as well since I expected my Ford back but did not specify it in the contract.

In this case, the manufacturer stopped all manufacture of the radiator in question, double checked his information, spent money to receive rush research documentation, found they actually were making it wrong and promised to make them correct with the correct dimensions from this point forward. That is a manufacturer I will deal with! We all make mistakes but if we follow your advice above, Mitch should have just sent all the measurements to them and had them make, and charge him, for a custom radiator as we should not expect them to provide what they advertise.

Again, Mike ...we will remain friends but choose to disagree. Maybe the underlying problem is most restorers today do not realize that some items are hand-crafted and there is a human element that goes into it.


For example, I have Snyders make me seat springs and I get charged for as custom spring. While they claim they are made to original prints & samples, their 'out-of-the-box springs do not always fit correctly enough for my standards. The same applies for upholstery, wiring harness', sheetmetal. mufflers, you name it. Many of these items are claimed to be made from a print but sometimes their dimensions are not exact & universal. I guess some of this is due to the nature that many hobbyist are not restorers and do not have the experience, comprehension, nor talent to be able to handle anything outside of an exacting fit.


Does anyone not find it very ironic that there are many of us that can testify that we have not experienced a problem with BW?? My point is there are certain Model-A items that are reproduced where every one of them is poor and the quality level is always low. In this situation, there are quite a large percentage that do not have an issue with their hand-crafted radiator yet many who have never even purchased a BW radiator seem to want to jump onto the bandwagon and bitch about the quality of an item they have never purchased, ...and they are only going on the hearsay of someone who had a bad experience because he really didn't pay attention to the details when it was ordered. This just isn't right, ….and I don't care if you disagree with me or not.


Just so you know, Lee and I have exchanged several e-mails on this topic, and I have not found him to be anything other than accommodating and trying to offer what the customer needs. It sure would be a nice gesture if more hobbyists who do not have the talent nor the tools to restore would start treating some of these vendors with the same respect and try to be more accommodating to what the vendor is offering.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:00 PM   #33
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Is there more than one size of outlet pipe to the block? Would it not make sense to make the radiator outlet the same size as the pipe?? Or what am I missing?
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:43 PM   #34
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Brent you will never qualify as a consumer advocate
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:31 PM   #35
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Well, I guess we should ignore this type of information (see below) if we come across it. We need to personally have a disaster with a supplier or service provider for it to matter; we cannot learn or base decisions or offer advice to others based on other people's experiences? (key extract from this link is below):

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1292108836


By Philip Trow on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 06:42 am:
"I got an e-mail from lee at Brassworks the other day, all he wanted to know was how he could make a better product in the future but nothing about helping me witn my current problems

Phillip -
I understand we lost your business but I am still interested in making a better product.

I re-read through all your postings again and looked at the photos a second time.
I am unable to see anything but a water stain in the photo. Another photo posted on the forum by your friend shows water stains all over the radiator.

There is no joint or seam in the Ford logo - it is just embossed brass.
Is there water coming from the Ford Logo or is this a photo provided to show discoloration of the brass?

Please advise.

Lee


I told him it was comming from the stamped ford logo

then I got this one back


Well, as I said from the very beginning, I regret you had a problem.
We have not seen this before but brass is a metal and can shear at a stress point. It did in 1915 and it can in 2010.
The radiator was tested for leaks before it was polished and painted back in the spring of 2007 when we made it.

I will look into it further to see if there is a way to prevent it in the future.

Thank you for the feedback.

Regards,

Lee


so all they care about is not helping me but getting me to help them make it better in the future not really very good business in my point of view"



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Old 06-07-2018, 02:09 AM   #36
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Default Re: Beware

My comment doesn't have much to do with radiators but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Geez, quite a few companies sell "unfinished" products, don't they?


Floor mats require trimming, window channel requires cutting to the correct length, Upholstery components like windlace, panels, etc. all require cutting to length and finishing. Fender welt requires cutting. Frame welt requires cutting & punching holes. How about radiator hoses, or fuel lines, or...?? I could go one, but so much of our hobby is designed around finishing or modifying what we purchase.
This is very handy for repairing/restoring other similar era cars for which parts are not available.
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Old 06-07-2018, 04:20 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by M2M View Post
Well, I guess we should ignore this type of information (see below) if we come across it. We need to personally have a disaster with a supplier or service provider for it to matter; we cannot learn or base decisions or offer advice to others based on other people's experiences? (key extract from this link is below):
Agreed. Quite a lot of sanctimonious long winded posts on this forum putting blame at the paying victims feet. I have always believed very much so in the saying where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

Main thing I got out of this topic is one company made a product that had no issues and another one that had issues effecting a numerous amount of our brothers and sisters and was dragging its feet with a solution (and sometimes not pleasant).
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:53 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I am often construed as rude & arrogant.
Don't guess anyone would argue with that sentence... Most of the rest of that epistle I find rude and arrogant, in addition to being wrong. If you advertise something to fit, it should do just that. Anything less than "fits" and it is no better than the crap we get out of China.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:23 AM   #39
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Returned defective radiator see letter that was sent to BW about defective radiator.
Call from Brasswork 03-14-11, they said that they were building my Radiator.
Call from Brasswork 03-23-11, Billing lady asked for credit card to charge me to ship the radiator to me. I asked to speak with Lee. Lee said that I should pay for the shipping and that he is not in business to send free shipping. I told Lee that I had to pay $75 to ship a defective radiator back, and that I should be paid the $75 for returning a defective radiator and not have to pay to have it replaced. Lee said that he was not going to pay for the return shipping and the shipping of the replacement radiator. Lee said that he would just refund $595 the original cost of the radiator. He asked me for my credit card so he could put the charges back on the credit card. I said just send me a check for $595 plus the $75 that I had to pay for return shipping of a defective radiator.
He did send me a check for $595, but no money for return shipping for a defective radiator.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:05 PM   #40
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Like WOW!
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