The Ford Barn

dave11 · 03-05-2016, 06:24 PM

Since I bought this 30 coupe, the fit of the hood has annoyed me. It is parallel to the radiator and fits close to the cowl along the top, however at the bottom of the cowl there is gap of about 1/2 - 5/8".
One Model a expert said to check that the radiator is not mounted too high. Turns out there has about 5/16" of rubber shims under the radiator mounting brackets, which I removed. This is when I found out the reason for the rubber shims...when they were removed the bottom radiator hose hits the cross member, also the bottom of the radiator is touching the top of the crank lever housing.
OFF to the local rad shop where bottom tank of the rad was moved up 3/8". After re assembling with only a thin rubber pad at the mounts,.....no more clearance issues at the bottom of the rad.
However this did not make a huge difference to the hood alignment problem.
Another suggestion was to lift the front of the body...although the fit of the doors is good, I don't want to disturb this.
I am wondering if the frame could be bent??

Dave

ericr · 03-05-2016, 07:17 PM

yes Dave, there will be a chorus of replies to the effect that frames indeed sag, usually at the motor mounts at the driver's side, causing puzzling and frustrating misalignment of hood to cowl and radiator shell.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-05-2016, 09:51 PM

Bent frame most likely, so you could fasten the front and rear of the frame and try jacking up the frame by the rear motor mounts. Use a plate to spread the load so you don't kink the frame rail.

duke36 · 03-05-2016, 10:39 PM

It may seem intuitive but which side should be jacked at the mounts to counteract sag?
For example if the front frame horn is low on one side, measured to a level surface, should the opposite side frame rail be jacked ?

ian Simpson · 03-05-2016, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Bent frame most likely, so you could fasten the front and rear of the frame and try jacking up the frame by the rear motor mounts. Use a plate to spread the load so you don't kink the frame rail.

Tom, Please explain 'fasten front and rear of the frame'.

Thanks

SeaSlugs · 03-05-2016, 11:21 PM

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attach near the front of the frame and rear of the frame to something sturdy that will not move, then out the jack under the motor mount area of the frame and bend it back upwards.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-06-2016, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

attach near the front of the frame and rear of the frame to something sturdy that will not move, then out the jack under the motor mount area of the frame and bend it back upwards.

Yes, it would be quick and easy for a body shop with a frame rack.

pooch · 03-06-2016, 05:46 AM

Drive onto a railway track....

Chain down front and rear of chassis....

Jack until hood gap goes away .....

Have someone check for trains coming....

ron103140 · 03-06-2016, 06:31 AM

I think I have the same problem. Hood will not line up at bottom on my 30 roadster. I have put 5 shims under the body very front and still have not gotten the gap out at bottom of hood. Doors due to this I think have been a real chore to align and still not right. They are too close at the top and not enough space for the door rubber bumpers. Sounds to me as I may also need some frame work. Advice will be appreciated. Ron

dave11 · 03-06-2016, 11:00 AM

Thanks Gentleman, I think I will start looking for a frame shop that is Model a friendly,...or more to the point knowledgable.

Dave

100IH · 03-06-2016, 11:08 AM

Check the pads on the front cross member where the rubber shim supports the radiator. The 29 frame mounting surfaces were level with the top of the side rails. The 30-31 frames were below level - lower -to work with the new taller radiator. There all sorts of mismatched parts, including frames out there after all these years.

Rowdy · 03-06-2016, 11:10 AM

Here you would have only 5 minutes between trains so work fast. Rod

Tinbasher · 03-06-2016, 11:32 AM

A quick check before you get to involved. Put a straight edge along the top part of the frame rail at the engine mount. The straight edge should sit along the frame nicely. If there's a gap then the rail is bent. Not a hard fix just aggravating.
John Poole

dave11 · 03-08-2016, 09:04 PM

Tinbasher, took your advise and checked the frame rails with a straight edge, if the section of frame rail at the rear engine mount is supposed to be straight , then I have one badly bent frame,....is it is out about 5/8" over 3 feet...no wonder the hood doesn't fit !

Dave

Tinbasher · 03-08-2016, 10:30 PM

Now you know and can move ahead in the right direction.

John Poole

kenparker · 03-08-2016, 10:52 PM

One of the Autumn Trails Model A Ford Club members and I went thru the "frame Sstraightening" (sp) today. We use a 7 foot long piece of I Beam positioned under the Frame Rail ( one side at the time) . I beam has heavy duty chains hooked onto each end. Chain about 12" long. Other end of chain has "brackets" hooked to it that bolt to the frame rail. One bracket bolted immediately behind the front Shock absorber. The rear bracket bolted to the frame in front of the rear shock absorber.

Sound confusing - I will get pictures tomorrow.

6 ton hydraulic bottle jack under the frame and sitting squarely on the I beam. A 2" wide by 5/16" thick 6" long piece of flat bar between Jack head and bottom of frame rail. This piece helps spread the lift and helps keep the frame from kinking.

Today in my friends 31 Pickup the gap at the lowere edge of the hood was 3/4" on passemger side and 7/8" on driver side. Front lowere edge of hood overlapped Stainless Radiator shell by 1/2". His frame sag was massave.

We jacked twice. Once immediatel in front of the Motor mount and once immediately behind the motor mount on each side.

Our end result was appros 1/8" gap at top of hood - at the center hinge- at the rear. and at the bottom of the hood we closed the gap from 3/4" to 1/4" gap. On the driver side we went from 7/8 gap at bottom to 1/4" gap.

He was amazed and VERY HAPPY. Twas a very good day. In spite of having to stop about 1 pm and take cover due to the towns tornado siren going off. No tornado but we did get 1.5 inches of rain and 40 mph winds. in aabout 1 hour.

As said above I will tke some pictures and post tomorrow that might help. A;lso andothe ckub member and I will do the same to a cabriolet come next Monday. Try to get some photos of that too,... ken

Terry, NJ · 03-09-2016, 07:19 AM

Just cold bending the frame has it's own negative effects. Try placing the jacks a little behind the rear motor mounts and pick the front wheels off the ground. Now take a MAPP gas torch and heat the spot right at the bend point. Get it up to blue ( you may have to polish it right at this point to see the heat color) remove the heat and quickly quench with cold water.
Terry

kenparker · 03-09-2016, 08:26 AM

Terry, I agree that "cold bending" has its negative effects. But in this case and the one coming to the shop on Monday, both still have the body on then and the engine in, which makes heat and fire difficult. And both owners are very fussy about their paint. On the Pickup there was no bend POINT. The bend/sag was spread over a 1 foot length.

sometimes we have to do the best we can with the bad options given us.

dave11 · 03-09-2016, 06:22 PM

If this is really such a common model A issue, I wonder if it may be wise to fishplate this section of the frame to add support,.....or maybe once it's straighten it will take another 80 years or so to re occur?

kenparker · 03-09-2016, 06:50 PM

I have 12 photos and some description of my Frame Straightenein Jig built into a WORD document. I think it is too big to load on Fordbarn. It is 2 1/2 pages. Any ideas on how to outsmart FB and get it to load.

03-05-2016, 06:24 PM	#1
dave11 Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Lillooet BC Canada Posts: 59	Hood alignment Since I bought this 30 coupe, the fit of the hood has annoyed me. It is parallel to the radiator and fits close to the cowl along the top, however at the bottom of the cowl there is gap of about 1/2 - 5/8". One Model a expert said to check that the radiator is not mounted too high. Turns out there has about 5/16" of rubber shims under the radiator mounting brackets, which I removed. This is when I found out the reason for the rubber shims...when they were removed the bottom radiator hose hits the cross member, also the bottom of the radiator is touching the top of the crank lever housing. OFF to the local rad shop where bottom tank of the rad was moved up 3/8". After re assembling with only a thin rubber pad at the mounts,.....no more clearance issues at the bottom of the rad. However this did not make a huge difference to the hood alignment problem. Another suggestion was to lift the front of the body...although the fit of the doors is good, I don't want to disturb this. I am wondering if the frame could be bent?? Dave

03-05-2016, 07:17 PM	#2
ericr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,542	Re: Hood alignment yes Dave, there will be a chorus of replies to the effect that frames indeed sag, usually at the motor mounts at the driver's side, causing puzzling and frustrating misalignment of hood to cowl and radiator shell.

03-05-2016, 09:51 PM	#3
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Hood alignment Bent frame most likely, so you could fasten the front and rear of the frame and try jacking up the frame by the rear motor mounts. Use a plate to spread the load so you don't kink the frame rail.

03-05-2016, 10:39 PM	#4
duke36 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 1,414	Re: Hood alignment It may seem intuitive but which side should be jacked at the mounts to counteract sag? For example if the front frame horn is low on one side, measured to a level surface, should the opposite side frame rail be jacked ?

03-05-2016, 11:21 PM	#6
SeaSlugs Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central, IL Posts: 3,968	Re: Hood alignment Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) attach near the front of the frame and rear of the frame to something sturdy that will not move, then out the jack under the motor mount area of the frame and bend it back upwards. __________________ 1929 Model AA - Need long splash aprons!

03-06-2016, 05:46 AM	#8
pooch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Coast NSW Australia Posts: 2,596	Re: Hood alignment Drive onto a railway track.... Chain down front and rear of chassis.... Jack until hood gap goes away ..... Have someone check for trains coming....

03-06-2016, 06:31 AM	#9
ron103140 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 74	Re: Hood alignment I think I have the same problem. Hood will not line up at bottom on my 30 roadster. I have put 5 shims under the body very front and still have not gotten the gap out at bottom of hood. Doors due to this I think have been a real chore to align and still not right. They are too close at the top and not enough space for the door rubber bumpers. Sounds to me as I may also need some frame work. Advice will be appreciated. Ron

03-06-2016, 11:00 AM	#10
dave11 Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Lillooet BC Canada Posts: 59	Re: Hood alignment Thanks Gentleman, I think I will start looking for a frame shop that is Model a friendly,...or more to the point knowledgable. Dave

03-06-2016, 11:08 AM	#11
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Hood alignment Check the pads on the front cross member where the rubber shim supports the radiator. The 29 frame mounting surfaces were level with the top of the side rails. The 30-31 frames were below level - lower -to work with the new taller radiator. There all sorts of mismatched parts, including frames out there after all these years.

03-06-2016, 11:10 AM	#12
Rowdy BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gothenburg Nebraska Just off I-80 Posts: 4,893	Re: Hood alignment Here you would have only 5 minutes between trains so work fast. Rod __________________ Do the RIGHT thing - Support the H.A.M.B. Alliance!!!!

03-06-2016, 11:32 AM	#13
Tinbasher Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Innisfil, Ontario Canada Posts: 1,174	Re: Hood alignment A quick check before you get to involved. Put a straight edge along the top part of the frame rail at the engine mount. The straight edge should sit along the frame nicely. If there's a gap then the rail is bent. Not a hard fix just aggravating. John Poole

03-08-2016, 09:04 PM	#14
dave11 Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Lillooet BC Canada Posts: 59	Re: Hood alignment Tinbasher, took your advise and checked the frame rails with a straight edge, if the section of frame rail at the rear engine mount is supposed to be straight , then I have one badly bent frame,....is it is out about 5/8" over 3 feet...no wonder the hood doesn't fit ! Dave

03-08-2016, 10:30 PM	#15
Tinbasher Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Innisfil, Ontario Canada Posts: 1,174	Re: Hood alignment Now you know and can move ahead in the right direction. John Poole

03-08-2016, 10:52 PM	#16
kenparker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Van, Texas Posts: 1,122	Re: Hood alignment One of the Autumn Trails Model A Ford Club members and I went thru the "frame Sstraightening" (sp) today. We use a 7 foot long piece of I Beam positioned under the Frame Rail ( one side at the time) . I beam has heavy duty chains hooked onto each end. Chain about 12" long. Other end of chain has "brackets" hooked to it that bolt to the frame rail. One bracket bolted immediately behind the front Shock absorber. The rear bracket bolted to the frame in front of the rear shock absorber. Sound confusing - I will get pictures tomorrow. 6 ton hydraulic bottle jack under the frame and sitting squarely on the I beam. A 2" wide by 5/16" thick 6" long piece of flat bar between Jack head and bottom of frame rail. This piece helps spread the lift and helps keep the frame from kinking. Today in my friends 31 Pickup the gap at the lowere edge of the hood was 3/4" on passemger side and 7/8" on driver side. Front lowere edge of hood overlapped Stainless Radiator shell by 1/2". His frame sag was massave. We jacked twice. Once immediatel in front of the Motor mount and once immediately behind the motor mount on each side. Our end result was appros 1/8" gap at top of hood - at the center hinge- at the rear. and at the bottom of the hood we closed the gap from 3/4" to 1/4" gap. On the driver side we went from 7/8 gap at bottom to 1/4" gap. He was amazed and VERY HAPPY. Twas a very good day. In spite of having to stop about 1 pm and take cover due to the towns tornado siren going off. No tornado but we did get 1.5 inches of rain and 40 mph winds. in aabout 1 hour. As said above I will tke some pictures and post tomorrow that might help. A;lso andothe ckub member and I will do the same to a cabriolet come next Monday. Try to get some photos of that too,... ken

03-09-2016, 07:19 AM	#17
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: Hood alignment Just cold bending the frame has it's own negative effects. Try placing the jacks a little behind the rear motor mounts and pick the front wheels off the ground. Now take a MAPP gas torch and heat the spot right at the bend point. Get it up to blue ( you may have to polish it right at this point to see the heat color) remove the heat and quickly quench with cold water. Terry

03-09-2016, 08:26 AM	#18
kenparker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Van, Texas Posts: 1,122	Re: Hood alignment Terry, I agree that "cold bending" has its negative effects. But in this case and the one coming to the shop on Monday, both still have the body on then and the engine in, which makes heat and fire difficult. And both owners are very fussy about their paint. On the Pickup there was no bend POINT. The bend/sag was spread over a 1 foot length. sometimes we have to do the best we can with the bad options given us.

03-09-2016, 06:22 PM	#19
dave11 Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Lillooet BC Canada Posts: 59	Re: Hood alignment If this is really such a common model A issue, I wonder if it may be wise to fishplate this section of the frame to add support,.....or maybe once it's straighten it will take another 80 years or so to re occur?

03-09-2016, 06:50 PM	#20
kenparker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Van, Texas Posts: 1,122	Re: Hood alignment I have 12 photos and some description of my Frame Straightenein Jig built into a WORD document. I think it is too big to load on Fordbarn. It is 2 1/2 pages. Any ideas on how to outsmart FB and get it to load.