A Few Model A Seatbelt Comments

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

This post and information below is not intended to be about which type of Model A insurance to buy; or which company to buy same.

And even though many articles were, and still are written on different opinions for installing or not installing seatbelts in Model A Fords, this is just one (1) interesting opinion from one (1) of many Model A insurance companies "today".

After realizing that every auto accident is different, everyone's past experiences are different, and every seat belt opinion is different, just trying to share information found recently that one may, or may not find interesting to peruse.

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...-collector-car

[harleynut]

Here's a quote from Les Andrews book Vol. 2..........Seat belts should be installed in every Model A for safety of driver and passengers. In any kind of collision, from front or rear, at a speed of 10mph and greater the Model A doors will fly open. Enough said.

[fiftyv8]

Some of you on here may have know Dick Mace from southern OR.
http://www.mailtribune.com/article/2...NEWS/906210335
Dick was involved in a head on accident in his 29 Model A Phaeton a good number of years ago now.
Dick was a front seat passenger and all involved survived.
I have known Dick for a good 10+ years as a Model A'er and knew he had two minds with regards to seat belts, but was swayed eventually to install them into his Model A because he would take his grand children with him in the car often.
Dick was a very serious Model A restorer, but after that accident he became some what of an advocate for using seat belts in old cars.
After having his beloved model A repaired and back on the road, Dick was once again hit by a guy who ran a stop sign I believe and again seat belts must have played a part in his survival.
In his first accident he resighted the fact that they would have been thrown out upon impact without seatbelts and possibly the only other thing that did protect them from the head on impact damage was the fixed nature of the engine block drive line and torque tube to the frame.

I personally think seatbelts are worth having...

[mike657894]

where are people putting the brackets? I should put some in mine. i have been in a few rollover accidents in modern cars. and i am thankful i had a belt

[fiftyv8]

Without going into exact detail, part of what I did was find some flat iron of greater than 1/4" thickness about 6" long and width that would fit between the sub frame where I needed to place an anchor point.

In my case the car was being built not already finished.
I drilled a hole centrally in the flat bar the size of the bolt plus clearance and welded a nut to the under side of that bar.
I drilled a hole in my sub frame, place the bar underneath and screwed the bolt thru.
In my case I drilled a further two small holes about 1 inch away from the larger hole only in the sub frame and made two small welds (a bit like spot welds) thru onto the flat bar below to tack it on place for all time.
This meant if I ever unscrew the anchor point the bar below will not drop out.

Each particular point needs individual thought to achieve some thing similar.
Centrally is a little tricky but I guess something can be worked out.
I reproduced a copy sub frame metal section and ran them between and at 90 degrees to the original cross pieces and welded them into place and again placed metal bar at my points below.

Most here may not be happy with doing that and I respect that.
I did it, so I could remove only a smaller piece of floor section should I ever need to access thru the floor from above.
No meed to remove a full floor panel.

I am sure some body makes a kit that will help make life easier installing seat belts into a running car.

[Bruce of MN]

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Mike,

Here are some articles I've saved:
http://www.cedarcreekas.org/TechTopics/SeatBelts.pdf
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/seatbelts.htm

Of course, a search on Fordbarn would give you a lot of tips and the Les Andres book has good info.

[mhsprecher]

Thanks, H.L. Good to know that an insurance company is encouraging us to install seatbelts. I know questions will remain, however.

I installed belts in my roadster. They were already in my Town Sedan. I also just installed shoulder belts in my 39 Fordor. One thing I would recommend is to use the anchor plates sold by Julianos. I used angle "iron" from the hardware store for my roadster, but my 39 installation used these and I thought they should work well on As, as well.

http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb....5BAAMI~Z5Z5Z51

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I saw a Model A that had one LOOOONG, continuous seat belt, that served BOTH front occupants????
Bill W.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW: Uniform load carrying capacity of various solid steel angles.

Because of no specific professionally engineered designs offered thus far for all Model A body styles, "if" one wants to try to design and install Model A seat belt anchorage, (and many already have), this very limited bit of information may or may not be of assistance.

A. Many post were written about attaching seat belts "only" to the body and "not" the chassis ..... just in case the passengers were cut in half by the seat belts ....... "if" the body left the chassis. Each to his own personal guesses, existing Model A conditions, and new designs.

B. And, other posts further described attaching seat belts "only" to the body by attaching seat belts to the thin sheet metal floor pans with steel backing bars or washers. Again, each to his own Model A's whatever.

C. And some post described securing seat belts to solid steel that was securely bolted to the chassis. Again, each to his own preferences for providing safety features.

D. For trying to guess "if", "where", and maybe "how" one wants to, (or even doesn't want to), consider securing seat belts to the chassis, one may want to further investigate steel load tables where for one (1) example:

1. If one provides a continuous, solid, minimum 2" x 2" x 3/16" transverse steel angle spanning the in-side approximately four (4) feet distance between both in-sides of Model A steel chassis channels; and,

2. If this solid steel channel is provided and securely bolted to the 'underside" of the top horizontal flanges of these two (2) chassis channels, (i.e., with angle provided and extending therein between to approximately 4' - 4" long); and,

3. If this single angle is securely bolted to both the chassis and securely bolted to substantial metal on the Model A body along this four (4) feet span length, the "additional" uniform load carrying capacity of this angle provided to secure the body to the chassis, (in addition to the existing body bolts), is approximately 3,788 pounds.

4. Additionally, one may want to factor in car weights where:

a. The heaviest Model A car "body", i.e., the four (4) door Town Sedan weighs approximately 810 pounds .... station wagon, approximately 950 pounds.

b. The heaviest Model A car with engine, chassis, and body weighs approximately 2,475 pounds ...... taxi, approximately 2,500 pounds.

c. Passenger weights ....... wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole ...... especially for a mother-in-law who eats too much ice cream.

d. Then, for example, on heavier 810 pound four (4) door Model A bodies, (rather than for example lighter 465 pound roadster bodies), two (2) steel angles can be provided on for example Town Sedans, (for both front and back seats), with a double load carrying capacity of 2 x 3,788 pounds = 7,576 pounds.

In knowing that no Model A G design forces are considered herein, nor rolling off of a mile high swinging bridge with one's mother-in-law with a gallon of ice cream, just hope this helps someone to decide what is best for "their" Model A and "their" mother-in-law.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

FWIW: Uniform load carrying capacity of various solid steel angles.

Because of no specific professionally engineered designs offered thus far for all Model A body styles, "if" one wants to try to design and install Model A seat belt anchorage, (and many already have), this very limited bit of information may or may not be of assistance.

A. Many post were written about attaching seat belts "only" to the body and "not" the chassis ..... just in case the passengers were cut in half by the seat belts ....... "if" the body left the chassis. Each to his own personal guesses, existing Model A conditions, and new designs.

B. And, other posts further described attaching seat belts "only" to the body by attaching seat belts to the thin sheet metal floor pans with steel backing bars or washers. Again, each to his own Model A's whatever.

C. And some post described securing seat belts to solid steel that was securely bolted to the chassis. Again, each to his own preferences for providing safety features.

D. For trying to guess "if", "where", and maybe "how" one wants to, (or even doesn't want to), consider securing seat belts to the chassis, one may want to further investigate steel load tables where for one (1) example:

1. If one provides a continuous, solid, minimum 2" x 2" x 3/16" transverse steel angle spanning the in-side approximately four (4) feet distance between both in-sides of Model A steel chassis channels; and,

2. If this solid steel channel is provided and securely bolted to the 'underside" of the top horizontal flanges of these two (2) chassis channels, (i.e., with angle provided and extending therein between to approximately 4' - 4" long); and,

3. If this single angle is securely bolted to both the chassis and securely bolted to substantial metal on the Model A body along this four (4) feet span length, the "additional" uniform load carrying capacity of this angle provided to secure the body to the chassis, (in addition to the existing body bolts), is approximately 3,788 pounds.

4. Additionally, one may want to factor in car weights where:

a. The heaviest Model A car "body", i.e., the four (4) door Town Sedan weighs approximately 810 pounds .... station wagon, approximately 950 pounds.

b. The heaviest Model A car with engine, chassis, and body weighs approximately 2,475 pounds ...... taxi, approximately 2,500 pounds.

c. Passenger weights ....... wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole ...... especially for a mother-in-law who eats too much ice cream.

d. Then, for example, on heavier 810 pound four (4) door Model A bodies, (rather than for example lighter 465 pound roadster bodies), two (2) steel angles can be provided on for example Town Sedans, (for both front and back seats), with a double load carrying capacity of 2 x 3,788 pounds = 7,576 pounds.

In knowing that no Model A G design forces are considered herein, nor rolling off of a mile high swinging bridge with one's mother-in-law with a gallon of ice cream, just hope this helps someone to decide what is best for "their" Model A and "their" mother-in-law.

Good data.

[mhsprecher]

Good stuff. Hagerty seems to think that an anchor with 6 sq inches is adequate. The anchors I linked to above are about that. Maybe more is better, i.e. the angle brace that Les Andrews used. That is what did in my roadster. My town sedan has one belt connected through the frame, which is not recommended by many.

The accident cited by Fiftyv8 is rather eye-opening. The fact that it was involved in two accidents that he lived to tell about really drives the point home.

Great thread. Thanks for all the thoughtful commentary.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

And there's those RARE accidents, where a person would have died, IF THEY WERE WEARING A SEAT BELT! Chief survived one such incident!
Bill W.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Bill,

Quite a few years ago, I experienced one such RARE accident driving alone at 26 years old, without a seat belt, in a 1969 Pontiac.

Oncoming car on a rainy night swerved directly into my lane at about 55 mph on a mud covered, slick asphalt highway.

To avoid a head-on death collision, I dodged right, also at 55 mph, jumped a ditch, loss control on wet grass, and slid sideways into a telephone pole.

When I saw the pole coming at me, I immediately jumped to the passenger's side landing with both knees on the front seat, head down low, and braced myself between the passenger side padded dash and the front seat backrest.

When it was all over, the telephone pole was located and centered behind the steering wheel and this sedan was "L" shaped and wrapped around the pole.

The State Trooper who came to the scene was amazed to see me standing with no pain and not even a scratch. This was just pure luck.

The other driver never came to see what happened. I never received a traffic ticket or a warning citation.

One thing appears somewhat slightly different today ....... I do not think I could jump that quickly ....... and I try to remember to attach my seat belt, but, sometimes I forget.

But who knows ...... maybe never give up .... and never quit trying to jump out of harm's way.

[harleynut]

The fact the doors fly open at 10mph is enough for me.

[Indiana A. Lover]

I have Hagerty Insurence on all my Hot rods Boat tail speedster and my 27 Essex. I have and use my seat belt All Ways. I beleive in them Don

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

A man was hanging from his seat belt in an upside down, Old Dodge Pickup. I was the only one with a sharp pocket knife, got him out just before the "in cab" fuel tank burst into FLAMES & in about 7 seconds, it EXPLODED!
Bill W.

[harleynut]

Bill...I commend you for what you did.....especially for having the keynoies for getting close enough to cut that seat belt...and having the presence of mind to do what you did in that short of time. But, and it's a big but, statics prove seat belts save lives. And ,just as a side note....my daughter won't let me take my Gran kids for a ride until I put seat belts in my Phaeton.....another side note(unrelated) I love reading your posts.....great sense of humor. Yet another side note.....10mph and the doors fly open.....give me a break....put the damn seat belts in

[fiftyv8]

Seat belts do save lives it is a fact now.
However, it is about risk assessment and doing things to minimise casualties.
You can't account for every circumstance just like in life in general.
We are surrounded by idiots and hence need to make allowances for contacts with them be it on the road or anywhere else.

[Tom Endy]

A number of Model A accidents I have read about over the years a death was caused when one of the occupants of the car was thrown out when the doors flew open.

There has been a controversy over the years about how to anchor the seat belts. Some say if not anchored to the frame and only to the sheet metal of the body they could easily rip loose during an accident. Others say that if anchored to the frame in a bad accident the body could rip loose from the frame and you would be torn apart in between.

I think the reality is that if you are in a serious accident in a Model A your chances of survival are not good. The car was not engineered to withstand an accident as cars of today are.

My take on it is that seat belts no matter what they are anchored to will in most cases keep you inside the car during an accident where you have a Better chance of survival.

I installed seat belts in the front seats of my Victoria years ago. My thinking is that not only will they keep you in the car during an accident. They will also keep the passenger in the front passenger seat from tumbling out the during a left turn should the door fly open.

Tom Endy

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by harleynut

Bill...I commend you for what you did.....especially for having the keynoies for getting close enough to cut that seat belt...and having the presence of mind to do what you did in that short of time. But, and it's a big but, statics prove seat belts save lives. And ,just as a side note....my daughter won't let me take my Gran kids for a ride until I put seat belts in my Phaeton.....another side note(unrelated) I love reading your posts.....great sense of humor. Yet another side note.....10mph and the doors fly open.....give me a break....put the damn seat belts in

I'm NOT-NOT -NOT AGAINST WEARING SEAT BELTS!!!!!!! Just talking about WEIRD things that happen.
By the way, Harley, I was SCARED AS SHIT, even though my knife was VERY SHARP, it seemed like it took me 5 minutes to cut the belt, afterwards, I SHOOK LIKE A LEAF IN A WINDSTORM
Bill Scared

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by fiftyv8

Some of you on here may have know Dick Mace from southern OR.
http://www.mailtribune.com/article/2...NEWS/906210335
Dick was involved in a head on accident in his 29 Model A Phaeton a good number of years ago now.
Dick was a front seat passenger and all involved survived.
I have known Dick for a good 10+ years as a Model A'er and knew he had two minds with regards to seat belts, but was swayed eventually to install them into his Model A because he would take his grand children with him in the car often.
Dick was a very serious Model A restorer, but after that accident he became some what of an advocate for using seat belts in old cars.
After having his beloved model A repaired and back on the road, Dick was once again hit by a guy who ran a stop sign I believe and again seat belts must have played a part in his survival.
In his first accident he recited the fact that they would have been thrown out upon impact without seatbelts and possibly the only other thing that did protect them from the head on impact damage was the fixed nature of the engine block drive line and torque tube to the frame.

I personally think seatbelts are worth having...

Do we know how his were attached, seat belts that is?

[harleynut]

Bill.... most people would have froze....you didn't.....that's saying something

[fiftyv8]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Do we know how his were attached, seat belts that is?

Sorry, I did not ever see the attachments, but guessing it was a kit.
Sadly, Dick passed away a couple of years back.
He survived two pretty serious accidents only to die on the operating table for what was considered simple surgery.

You just don't know when your number will come up.
Again just can not factor an event like that in.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by fiftyv8

Sorry, I did not ever see the attachments, but guessing it was a kit.
Sadly, Dick passed away a couple of years back.
He survived two pretty serious accidents only to die on the operating table for what was considered simple surgery.

You just don't know when your number will come up.
Again just can not factor an event like that in.

I ask because there have been several methods spoken about here and it would have been nice to know about a method that worked in a crash as severe as that one was.

[fiftyv8]

Good point, I actually keep in touch with one of his friends who may know so I will ask and see what he can recall.
Sure worked and saved their lives that was a bad crash.
Trouble with many old and cars say upto the 1970's was they did not crumble and absorb impact so a shock wave for want of a better expression goes thru you and the car which my guess does a lot of soft tissue damage and maybe other stuff.

Pete maybe able to confirm his experience with crashes when racing as to what equipment is helpful.
Many folks die of head injuries, yet we are not all wearing helmets and I figure airbags probably help with head protection if they don't kill you when they activate...

[Lona]

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Seat belts alone are not enough in a Model A or in most vintage cars for that matter. In a frontal accident in a car with seat belts, your upper body will hinge forward and your head will hit the steering wheel or the windshield. Lap/shoulder belt installations are much safer and can be installed either fixed or retractable. There are several posts on the forum regarding these types of installations in coupes, roadsters and sedans. When you are installing laps only, you have the seats out and everything exposed for the job so why not go the extra bit and install shoulder belts too? Pickups pose a problem with where to locate the shoulder anchor points but it is doable. I recall one post a year or so ago from someone who did it.

Glen

[Barry B./ Ma.]

I put them in my 30 roadster and it was real simple. I mounted a 3/8"x 4" steel plate the full length under the rumble seat foot riser with the belt anchors up through the rumble floor mat and belts between the cushion and backrest seats. Knowing how flimsy those doors were, I just wanted to stay inside, won't help in a rollover though.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I was working @ Chrysler-Plymouth when seat belts became a mandatory Retro-Fit in California, just for the front at first. We attended training classes & had EXPLICIT instructions on how to install them in that PARTICULAR model. Most used a LARGE, 3 or 4 inch flat washer, under the floor. I don't remember if any anchored to frame parts??? It was sometime later, when they were required for the rear seats.
Seemed like 1/2 of the crew were doing SEAT BELTS! Sometime later, it was REALLY a RIOT, when Retro-Fit PCV systems were required, as they often caused cars NOT to IDLE well.
Bill Retro-Fit

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by harleynut

Bill.... most people would have froze....you didn't.....that's saying something

I was glad I always carried a SHARP Pocket Knife, they come in handy OFTEN. The driver was an ATTORNEY & we became CLOSE Friends & I had "FOREVER" FREE, Legal Help!
Bill W.

[Indiana A. Lover]

Thank you Bill for saveing the man in the Dodge truck. I hope you are around if I no if but when I have a stupid spell. You are a good man!!! Don in Ice box Indiana. Yes we were told to bring in our Brass Monkeys Tonite

[henry's 31]

I sure appreciate this posting. I have seat belts in my Roadster. Will put them in my Roadster Pickup and my Tudor.

If anyone has placed them in a Roadster Pickup (1931) please let me know how you did it.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Indiana A. Lover

Thank you Bill for saveing the man in the Dodge truck. I hope you are around if I no if but when I have a stupid spell. You are a good man!!! Don in Ice box Indiana. Yes we were told to bring in our Brass Monkeys Tonite

"BRASS MONKEYS" thet's FUNNY Buster T. can't figger out thet one????
A Brass Monkey would have been an appropriate "HERO" Badge
Strangely enough, when it happened, my Brain??? didn't even "think" about it, I just felt like a Puppet, in a Daze & did it. It didn't even get in the paper or on TV, but I gained a NEW Friend.
Bill W.

[J Witt]

Originally Posted by Barry B./ Ma.

I put them in my 30 roadster and it was real simple. I mounted a 3/8"x 4" steel plate the full length under the rumble seat foot riser with the belt anchors up through the rumble floor mat and belts between the cushion and backrest seats. Knowing how flimsy those doors were, I just wanted to stay inside, won't help in a rollover though.

That's just about what I did in my roadster also. It works out well and isn't hard to do once you see the relative locations of the sheet metal panels. The big thing is to keep the anchors from keyholing, or tearing out the sheet metal where they are attached. Round all the edges and corners, very important!

John

[Bruce of MN]

Here are pix of the seatbelt attachments on my '31 coupe.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

How I miss the War Surplus Stores, where we used to buy HEAVY DUTY, Aircraft Seat Belts & Bomber Seats & "SNOOPY" hats & Flight Suits, for COLD OPEN CARS!
Bill W.