Rear wheel bearings

[Synchro909]

I am in the process of putting together a rear end for my latest project. The rear wheel bearings were shot so I've put new sleeves on the axle housings and bought new hubs. I have had a pair of new rollers on the shelf for years but they have the grooves all running the same way, unlike the original Ford ones. There are not as many rollers either.
If I use these, the bearing is tight (no play at all when I try to "wobble" the drum). I'm concerned that they might be too tight!
If I reuse a set of original rollers with a max of 0.002" wear on them, there is play in the bearing but more rollers and the grooves run both ways. I would also not run into problem because the nearings are too tight.
I'm not sure which way I should jump so I ask the experts here.

[Pete]

Do not run them tight.

[Russ/40]

Are the tight ones tight without lubrication? You will not be able to feel the fit very well when they are greased. Try the fit with oil, no grease. You will better be able to perceive the fit.

[Synchro909]

Wow, that didn't take long for a reply. Thanks fellas.
When I tried them, there was a film of oil on things but they were still tight. It seems my concerns were well founded.
I'll wait to read any more responses before I make up my mind but I'm leaning toward the loose, old bearings.
An alternative just occurred to me! Maybe I could have say, 0.001" ground off the sleeves on the axle housings. That would give a little clearance or am I being too pedantic?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

There's an Old Saying about Racing Engines, "THE TIGHT ONES BLOW, & THE LOOSE ONES GO"!!
Bill Rrrrrrr

[katy]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I'd go w/the original ones.

[Joe K]

When I rebuilt my rear end, the bearings (stationary part on the axle trumpet) got turned down and a hardened sleeve pressed on over. My rollers (bearing unit) were "original style" and after installation, I had about 0.015 slop/clearance.

Available at that time were later model Ford wheel bearings which were designed to run on the standard trumpet bearing (stationary) but were overall smaller and a "sleeve" was available to be pressed into the wheel hub. This was a way to compensate for wear on the hub and keep a Model A hub "going."

Today we have new hubs/bearings which can be bought in either the Model A diameter or the later Ford hub style.

Many still have to turn down and sleeve the axle trumpet. In your case it seems you have. Given the operation and the "interference fit" this involves, you or the machinist may have "stretched" the sleeve such to present an oversized diameter on the axle trumpet. Thus overly tight on the new bearings and hubs?

The fact that you don't have this tightness on the original bearings/hubs maybe indicates that wear on those parts in part "compensates" for the oversize axle trumpet sleeve?

There are dimensions published for both style hubs and for the trumpet sleeve finished diameter. I can't tell you these offhand but a little net research (or a knowledgeable contributor) may yield these numbers.

You need to find out where you are. Tight seems tight and it probably is - and may do you no good long term.

And oversize trumpet sleeves can be ground down by a competent cylindrical grinder/machinist. (He may instead turn them off/re-establish interference diameter and stretch, and press on a new sleeve with a "target diameter" in mind. Part of the art of "interference machining.")

Or. Around here axle trumpets are about $25 a pop - needing rebuild ALWAYS of course.

Joe K

[Lawrie]

Arnold, the inner axle bearings are 2.0625 dia, use the old FORD bearings,at least they are hardened on the end flanges and wont wear into the hub or the rollers wear out thru the flange, I know ,you heard my 33 doing the U turn at the end of your street.
Lawrie

[Synchro909]

Those responses have confirmed my thoughts. The tight rollers stay in the box and the original ones will roll on.
I don't think the sleeves on the axle housings were stretched but had thought about it. I think having about a thou ground off them would solve the issue but using the original rollers will too and that involves no extra work.
Thanks guys - original rollers it is.

[Bud]

Just to add a side note: the "grooves" in the original rollers, though they may conduct lubricant across the bearing, are not grooves at all. I ran across this in an old New Departure catalog. The rollers are made of wound strip stock. They are deliberately designed that way. They are shock absorbing rollers! When hit with a heavy shock they avoid high contact stress by expanding axially. Replacement bearings are usually solid rollers with much less shock absorbing capability, but cheaper to produce.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Bud

Just to add a side note: the "grooves" in the original rollers, though they may conduct lubricant across the bearing, are not grooves at all. I ran across this in an old New Departure catalog. The rollers are made of wound strip stock. They are deliberately designed that way. They are shock absorbing rollers! When hit with a heavy shock they avoid high contact stress by expanding axially. Replacement bearings are usually solid rollers with much less shock absorbing capability, but cheaper to produce.

Especially with fewer rollers! That would make the damaging effects of a heavy shock even worse. Imagine how much better off we would all be if replacement parts were as good as the originals. I suspect there would be so many more Model As on the road that vendors would be at least as well off as stickking with the blinkered view that they have to make as much as possible on each item, thus giving us low cost (often) junk. As evidence of this, just consider how often those vendors who offer good quality are recommended as the place to go on this forum.
You are quite correct about the rollers being wound, not solid

[Smooth_One]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

There's an Old Saying about Racing Engines, "THE TIGHT ONES BLOW, & THE LOOSE ONES GO"!!
Bill Rrrrrrr

And then they get really loose right at the end! lol

[Purdy Swoft]

If they don't first lock up !!!

[Benson]

Here is more than you might want to know about Hyatt Bearings spoken of here on this Thread and why they are better quality ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_...earing_Company

Paragraph "Foundation" explains why these bearings are so strong.

Originally Posted by Bud

Just to add a side note: the "grooves" in the original rollers, though they may conduct lubricant across the bearing, are not grooves at all. I ran across this in an old New Departure catalog. The rollers are made of wound strip stock. They are deliberately designed that way. They are shock absorbing rollers! When hit with a heavy shock they avoid high contact stress by expanding axially. Replacement bearings are usually solid rollers with much less shock absorbing capability, but cheaper to produce.

[Synchro909]

Thanks to all those who responded. Most of you confirmed my thoughts that I should go with the looser original rollers. I'm looking forward to lots of miles out of this rear end.

[Lawrie]

You make sure you have it covered.Lol
Lawrie

[Mikeinnj]

Rear Axle Housing (Trumpet) Race Repair Instructions:
The sleeve enables you to salvage worn out housings by repairing the worn flat bottom of the bearing race. A round race keeps hub centered, thus keeping brake shoes centered to drum. The old axle race must be machined, and the new heat-treated race pressed on. One end of the new race has the ID chamfered to aid installation. Original axle race O.D. is 2.061 to 2.063. Turn old axle race to .0005 larger than the I.D. of the new race for a press fit.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

Rear Axle Housing (Trumpet) Race Repair Instructions:
The sleeve enables you to salvage worn out housings by repairing the worn flat bottom of the bearing race. A round race keeps hub centered, thus keeping brake shoes centered to drum. The old axle race must be machined, and the new heat-treated race pressed on. One end of the new race has the ID chamfered to aid installation. Original axle race O.D. is 2.061 to 2.063. Turn old axle race to .0005 larger than the I.D. of the new race for a press fit.

I don't remember the numbers, but my sleeves came with instructions written both for use of a Loctite product (Loctite Red IIRC) and a slightly larger diameter to machine to (like a matter of a thousandth) for sleeves put on without any loctite - but using kerosene as a lubricant. The install depending on the familiarity/preference of the machinist.

The Loctite version seemingly "filled the space" a bit - or perhaps less stretch was required because of the bond. And there was a tolerance range for the completed sleeve, which was fairly generous (like 0.005 IIRC)


Joe K

[1930 coupe]

Define TIGHT, does it slide on and off easy and turns easy but you think it should have more play, or do you have to beat on it with your fist to get it on and off and is hard to turn.
If the first definition applies you might put it together and drive it around the block a few times at slow speed then take it apart and inspect it.
If it is hard to turn I would not use it.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 1930 coupe

Define TIGHT, does it slide on and off easy and turns easy but you think it should have more play, or do you have to beat on it with your fist to get it on and off and is hard to turn.
If the first definition applies you might put it together and drive it around the block a few times at slow speed then take it apart and inspect it.
If it is hard to turn I would not use it.

With the rollers sitting on gthe end of the trumpet, I could push the hub over them reasonably easily and there was drag when I turned the drum. I couldn't get a full turn out of the drum if I gave it as much of a turn as I could and let it "freewheel". I had a bit of a job to pull the hub off again - thought I had created a real drama. There was absolutley NO way I could get any "wobble" out of the drum when they were together.
Speaking with a Model A guru I know, has confirmed yet again that the old rollers will go in. The new ones are just too tight and likley to fail somewhere doen the road. I don't want to walk home!