The Ford Barn

gavinnz · 03-26-2019, 04:08 AM

Ok so I have an OK 8BA block with only one crack, and I can fix that.

But I need a little education on sleeve sizes....

Here is what I am up against.
The block has been bored 40 over and used...
Two barrels have had sleeves fitted in the past... but they look real thin...
How thin is too thin for a sleeve???

I am assuming that I would have to go to at least 80 over to clean up rust in the bores.
Can I get sleeves that can take a 80 over bore or even a .125 overbore??

I have done some reading but I was not clear on sleeve thickness or overall thickness... And the sleeves I was looking at seemed aimed at taking an engine back to standard.... HELP!

gavinnz · 03-26-2019, 04:30 AM

One quick thing forgot... if I was to bore the engine .125 over I would NOT take out all of the two sleeves... which is a bugger.

54vicky · 03-26-2019, 09:28 AM

I would think you would get a better response to a question about the engine.on a forum like flatheads forever not positive but worth a try if you do not get a response.also it may bring more opinions good luck.

rotorwrench · 03-26-2019, 09:42 AM

Sleeves are likely anywhere from 100 bucks per bore to 150 give or take so it can get expensive to bore and install a whole set. Ford used tin can sleeves successfully back before the war that were .040" thick steel but they took special equipment to replace so most folks took them out and went oversize. Personally, I would feel more comfortable with about .080" thickness left over but they can be cut pretty thin. There have been engines built where they cut through into a water jackets to put large bore sleeves in to make a 221 engine into a 239 engine with plenty of wall thickness for reserve. It's up to the machinist as to what size he is willing to work with. Sleeves are available to work with about any size a person could imagine.

JSeery · 03-26-2019, 04:37 PM

To me it would involve a talk between me and the machinist that is doing the work. About any size sleeve is available.

flatjack9 · 03-26-2019, 05:08 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Melling has sleeves with a 3 3/16 bore and .094 or .125 thickness. I'm sure there are others.

Ol' Ron · 03-26-2019, 10:27 PM

I bore all my 59 and 8ba blocks to 3 5/16 and run Egge 3 ring pistons this will give you 258 ci and another point in CR and a very nice engine with plenty of torque and better mileage. No sleeves.

flatheadmurre · 03-27-2019, 03:30 AM

In a wet sleeve aplication there´s a limitation on thickness set by strenght.
In a dry sleeve as in a flathead there is no minimum limitation from that point of view...you get issues with not enought force to keep the sleeve from moving or distorsion of the wall first.
There are cylinder sleeves 1/16 from start..
Not easy to say what´s safe or not when you don´t do the sleeve from start...light pressfit and an adhesive between sleeve and block you can go real thin...

gavinnz · 03-27-2019, 09:30 AM

Thanks for the information guys. Much appreciated. Looking at the rust damage in one un sleeved cylinder I think I will be going to a .125 over bore. So the two existing sleeves will have to be replaced with bigger thicker ones as there will only be a wafer thin layer left of the two in the engine.

So if I am going to a 84.135mm bore (.125 inch over Bore) and I want a 2mm sleeve finished thickness, ( just under .08 inch) then a sleeve OD of just over 88mm will be needed..... Looking at it that looks doable.... So think I am armed with knowledge I need now.

flatheadmurre · 03-27-2019, 09:50 AM

2mm is way more then you need to have...if you ask me i don´t like to bore more out of the block then i need.
The std thin sleeve takes a .060 overbore without anyone questioning it...
Leaving you with a 0.85mm wall.

richard crow · 03-27-2019, 11:03 AM

you say it has two sleeves all ready.there must have been a reason .what do all the cylinders mike at. if there all the same give or take a few thousands & you have less than 015 taper hone the eng & fit the proper rings. you guys spend thousands of dollars on a rebuild & most are driven less than 5,000 a year if you are going to put a lot of milage ot it then go the high dollar route.years ago we rebuilt these engs. in frame with a lot of wear & taper still got an other 25,000 before they started to look like crop dusters .

gavinnz · 03-27-2019, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard crow

you say it has two sleeves all ready.there must have been a reason .what do all the cylinders mike at. if there all the same give or take a few thousands & you have less than 015 taper hone the eng & fit the proper rings. you guys spend thousands of dollars on a rebuild & most are driven less than 5,000 a year if you are going to put a lot of milage ot it then go the high dollar route.years ago we rebuilt these engs. in frame with a lot of wear & taper still got an other 25,000 before they started to look like crop dusters .

Can't just hone out the serious rust pitting from years siting with water in the bores. The engine was at an angle with water in it so I have an angled "tide line"

Lawrie · 03-27-2019, 07:23 PM

Gavin, are you anywhere near Brian on the barn. He may have some ideas.
Lawrie

gavinnz · 03-27-2019, 08:02 PM

I think I am good now, I have enough information to be able to go and see the engine reconditioner and know what I am talking about and to know if he is talking about going in the right direction!

Note: He is an old time engine guy who has done these engines before so he is the right guy to go to!

Ol' Ron · 03-28-2019, 09:05 AM

I would think that if the block was good after boring .125", why bother to sleeve it. Unfortunately, you need the pistons before you bore the block, I run .002" clearance on the pistons. Would think this would be less expensive.

gavinnz · 03-28-2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I would think that if the block was good after boring .125", why bother to sleeve it. Unfortunately, you need the pistons before you bore the block, I run .002" clearance on the pistons. Would think this would be less expensive.

Yes I agree and I would do that if I could but the two sleeves that are already in the engine would be only wafer thin with the .125 over bore... So I would need to re sleeve those to make the .125 over bore work.

Two of the unsleeved bores that are already 40 over are badly pitted so they will I think need the .125 bore to clear all the faults.

So I think I'm stuck with re sleeving the two bores the taking them out to .125. By the way, the sleeves do not appear to be located at the bottom which I believe is not common practice now....

flatheadmurre · 03-28-2019, 09:29 AM

Check so they aren´t flanged sleeves...ford´s original sleeves was made that way.
Measure diameter top and bottom if top is larger you have a flange sleeve.

tubman · 03-28-2019, 02:24 PM

If you have to buy a set of pistons anyway, at this point I'd check and see if it would take a bore to 3 3/8". Most 8BA's will. If it will, I'd bore it out, get a set of pistons and rings and go for it. Even with a stock 3 3/4" stroke, you'll end up with a bigger engine than installing the vaunted Merc crank. Let the next owner worry about sleeving it when it finally wears out 50 years from now. I think Ol' Ron has one at 3 3/8" plus .030 that he's running with no problems. Even if you wear it out, a quick hone and a new set of rings will give it another 50 years.

gavinnz · 03-28-2019, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

If you have to buy a set of pistons anyway, at this point I'd check and see if it would take a bore to 3 3/8". Most 8BA's will. If it will, I'd bore it out, get a set of pistons and rings and go for it.

This is why I keep asking questions! I did not know that a 3 3/8 was even an option. Are the pistons made specially or can they be bought off the shelf like the 3 5/16 sets?

rotorwrench · 03-28-2019, 06:34 PM

Going out to 3.375" has its risks but has been done in most of the different 239 blocks. The 221 blocks are too small on 21-studs and the 24-stud version is not a lot better. The bore would be crowding the bolt holes on the bottom edge of the deck on the 21-studs. A person should first make certain that the block will hold its mud. Don't spend money on a leaker until it's fixed. It is a good idea to have the bores sonic checked for thickness before boring it to extremes. If there is a some core shift or thin spots then 3.3125" is a better bet. 3-ring pistons are available starting at 3 5/16" so any where in there is quite acceptable for a street engine.

03-26-2019, 04:08 AM	#1
gavinnz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: New Zealand Posts: 208	Sleeving questions.... I need a little education Ok so I have an OK 8BA block with only one crack, and I can fix that. But I need a little education on sleeve sizes.... Here is what I am up against. The block has been bored 40 over and used... Two barrels have had sleeves fitted in the past... but they look real thin... How thin is too thin for a sleeve??? I am assuming that I would have to go to at least 80 over to clean up rust in the bores. Can I get sleeves that can take a 80 over bore or even a .125 overbore?? I have done some reading but I was not clear on sleeve thickness or overall thickness... And the sleeves I was looking at seemed aimed at taking an engine back to standard.... HELP!

03-26-2019, 04:30 AM	#2
gavinnz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: New Zealand Posts: 208	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education One quick thing forgot... if I was to bore the engine .125 over I would NOT take out all of the two sleeves... which is a bugger.

03-26-2019, 09:28 AM	#3
54vicky Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Oakville Ontario Posts: 586	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education I would think you would get a better response to a question about the engine.on a forum like flatheads forever not positive but worth a try if you do not get a response.also it may bring more opinions good luck.

03-26-2019, 09:42 AM	#4
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education Sleeves are likely anywhere from 100 bucks per bore to 150 give or take so it can get expensive to bore and install a whole set. Ford used tin can sleeves successfully back before the war that were .040" thick steel but they took special equipment to replace so most folks took them out and went oversize. Personally, I would feel more comfortable with about .080" thickness left over but they can be cut pretty thin. There have been engines built where they cut through into a water jackets to put large bore sleeves in to make a 221 engine into a 239 engine with plenty of wall thickness for reserve. It's up to the machinist as to what size he is willing to work with. Sleeves are available to work with about any size a person could imagine.

03-26-2019, 04:37 PM	#5
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education To me it would involve a talk between me and the machinist that is doing the work. About any size sleeve is available.

03-26-2019, 05:08 PM	#6
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,526	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Melling has sleeves with a 3 3/16 bore and .094 or .125 thickness. I'm sure there are others.

03-26-2019, 10:27 PM	#7
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education I bore all my 59 and 8ba blocks to 3 5/16 and run Egge 3 ring pistons this will give you 258 ci and another point in CR and a very nice engine with plenty of torque and better mileage. No sleeves.

03-27-2019, 03:30 AM	#8
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education In a wet sleeve aplication there´s a limitation on thickness set by strenght. In a dry sleeve as in a flathead there is no minimum limitation from that point of view...you get issues with not enought force to keep the sleeve from moving or distorsion of the wall first. There are cylinder sleeves 1/16 from start.. Not easy to say what´s safe or not when you don´t do the sleeve from start...light pressfit and an adhesive between sleeve and block you can go real thin...

03-27-2019, 09:30 AM	#9
gavinnz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: New Zealand Posts: 208	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education Thanks for the information guys. Much appreciated. Looking at the rust damage in one un sleeved cylinder I think I will be going to a .125 over bore. So the two existing sleeves will have to be replaced with bigger thicker ones as there will only be a wafer thin layer left of the two in the engine. So if I am going to a 84.135mm bore (.125 inch over Bore) and I want a 2mm sleeve finished thickness, ( just under .08 inch) then a sleeve OD of just over 88mm will be needed..... Looking at it that looks doable.... So think I am armed with knowledge I need now.

03-27-2019, 09:50 AM	#10
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education 2mm is way more then you need to have...if you ask me i don´t like to bore more out of the block then i need. The std thin sleeve takes a .060 overbore without anyone questioning it... Leaving you with a 0.85mm wall.

03-27-2019, 11:03 AM	#11
richard crow Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,770	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education you say it has two sleeves all ready.there must have been a reason .what do all the cylinders mike at. if there all the same give or take a few thousands & you have less than 015 taper hone the eng & fit the proper rings. you guys spend thousands of dollars on a rebuild & most are driven less than 5,000 a year if you are going to put a lot of milage ot it then go the high dollar route.years ago we rebuilt these engs. in frame with a lot of wear & taper still got an other 25,000 before they started to look like crop dusters .

03-27-2019, 07:23 PM	#13
Lawrie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Qld, Australia Posts: 4,215	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education Gavin, are you anywhere near Brian on the barn. He may have some ideas. Lawrie

03-27-2019, 08:02 PM	#14
gavinnz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: New Zealand Posts: 208	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education I think I am good now, I have enough information to be able to go and see the engine reconditioner and know what I am talking about and to know if he is talking about going in the right direction! Note: He is an old time engine guy who has done these engines before so he is the right guy to go to!

03-28-2019, 09:05 AM	#15
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education I would think that if the block was good after boring .125", why bother to sleeve it. Unfortunately, you need the pistons before you bore the block, I run .002" clearance on the pistons. Would think this would be less expensive.

03-28-2019, 09:29 AM	#17
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education Check so they aren´t flanged sleeves...ford´s original sleeves was made that way. Measure diameter top and bottom if top is larger you have a flange sleeve.

03-28-2019, 02:24 PM	#18
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,312	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education If you have to buy a set of pistons anyway, at this point I'd check and see if it would take a bore to 3 3/8". Most 8BA's will. If it will, I'd bore it out, get a set of pistons and rings and go for it. Even with a stock 3 3/4" stroke, you'll end up with a bigger engine than installing the vaunted Merc crank. Let the next owner worry about sleeving it when it finally wears out 50 years from now. I think Ol' Ron has one at 3 3/8" plus .030 that he's running with no problems. Even if you wear it out, a quick hone and a new set of rings will give it another 50 years.

03-28-2019, 06:34 PM	#20
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: Sleeving questions.... I need a little education Going out to 3.375" has its risks but has been done in most of the different 239 blocks. The 221 blocks are too small on 21-studs and the 24-stud version is not a lot better. The bore would be crowding the bolt holes on the bottom edge of the deck on the 21-studs. A person should first make certain that the block will hold its mud. Don't spend money on a leaker until it's fixed. It is a good idea to have the bores sonic checked for thickness before boring it to extremes. If there is a some core shift or thin spots then 3.3125" is a better bet. 3-ring pistons are available starting at 3 5/16" so any where in there is quite acceptable for a street engine.