The Ford Barn

weemark · 10-15-2016, 06:37 AM

I'm wondering if someone can help me and post up a clear close up picture of the inside of a horn from 1935. I went to change the wiring on the horns on my car to new cloth covered wiring but when I opened them up they were a bit of a mess inside and at some point in the past someone has added plastic covered wiring and then soldered the wiring to the connections inside the horns but there is also other wiring inside the horns soldered together. I have no idea what ite meant to be like inside the horns or how the wiring is meant to be connected.

I have also changed my car to 12 -earth. How will my horns cope with this? Can I get them changed to 12v or would a voltage dropped work with them? No idea where I wild put a voltage dropper though given the location of the wiring and the size of the horns.

I've looked in my 35/36 book from the early ford club but it doesn't cover what I'm looking for.

JSeery · 10-15-2016, 08:02 AM

There have been a number of past threads on this subject (6v to 12v on horns).

Terry,OH · 10-15-2016, 08:22 AM

The internal wiring of the horns is shown on Fords 1935 wiring diagram. It is very basic. The internal capacitor is wired across the points. The capacitor helps reduce arcing on the points. One side of the coil goes to one side of the points and the second wire from the coil goes to one of the terminal blocks. The other side of the points with just one capacitor wire has a second wire to the second terminal block.

JSeery · 10-15-2016, 09:08 AM

Here's the diagram Terry is referring to. The first one is from the 35 wiring diagram and the second one is from the 36 wiring diagram (very similar). I have no idea what year the horn adjustment figure is, not sure if it helps or just adds confusion!

JM 35 Sedan · 10-15-2016, 09:08 AM

Mark, I can post or email you a picture of the horn on my original 35 fordor with the domed cover removed when I get back home from a trip.

weemark · 10-15-2016, 01:12 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Mark, I can post or email you a picture of the horn on my original 35 fordor with the domed cover removed when I get back home from a trip.

Hi john that would be really helpful, I appreciate it. I didn't even realise the horns had points in them, I can't remember seeing them in my horns but that's not to say they aren't here.

here are a couple of pics, as you can see all the wires are all soldered onto connections, the wires to the capacitor have worn through their outer covering which I need to address as well. can I replace the capacitor if needed? what holds the wires onto the points - I assume its not meant to be solder...

I think the new wires I have use bullets on the end of them to connect to the horn but I cant see connections of this type in my horns? again I don't believe it should be solder.

JSeery · 10-15-2016, 03:28 PM

Do you recognize the components in the posted photos? There is the coil, points and a capacitor. The points are mounted to the top of the coil and the capacitor is the black cylinder. If it is the same horn components as the 35 diagram shows, one wire would connect to the coil one side of the coil (input) and the output side of the coil connects to one side of the points and one side of the capacitor. The second wire connects to the other side of both the points and capacitor.

The White wire appears to connect to the top side of the points and one end of the capacitor. So the Blue/Red wire must connect to the input side of the coil. The Blue/Red wire would correspond to the Yellow wire in the diagram. The White wire corresponds to the Black wire.

weemark · 10-15-2016, 04:01 PM

Jseery, yes I recognise all the components and understand how it should be done now.

The White wire is soldered to a connction which has 2 wires soldered onto it also, one wire goes to the top of the points, the other wire goes to the capacitor.

The blue/red wire is soldered to A connection and soldered to it is a black wire which goes under the points and to the bottom side of the points, there is also a second wire on the bottom side of the points which connects to the other side of the capacitor.

When I hold the new loom in place it's obvious what wires go to what connections but I still can't see how I would connect the bullet connectors to the horn. Should the wires to the capacitor be connected via a small screw type connector, a bullet connector or should they be soldered on? Should the wires to the points be connected via a small screw so they can be removed or should they be soldered on?

JSeery · 10-15-2016, 04:06 PM

Where the current wires are soldered "may" have been clips for the bullet connects, I have no idea. One way to connect to new wires (if you don't want to solder them directly as they now are) would be to solder some short pieces of wire in place with bullet connectors on them and use the original style couplers.

weemark · 10-15-2016, 04:16 PM

Yes I could solder pieces on to accept the new loom. I didnt want to just crack on and do something that isn't right hence the reason I asked for a picture of someone who has one that is right. I would rather have a picture of what should be there then I can start to address the issues.

From memory the horns werent particularly loud or sounded of a pleasing tone, they were more like a quiet fog horn that was muffled with a pair of socks - if you can imagine a sound like that

Bob C · 10-15-2016, 04:39 PM

This is a Model A horn but the wire connections are the same.

Bob

rotorwrench · 10-15-2016, 04:44 PM

The old Sparton CL4 horns had bullet connectors that used to fit into those clips where the wires are soldered. A previous owner may have had problems with them coming loose. These horns were used from 1933 through 1935 and maybe later on some trucks. They were good units and well worth repairing. I'm sure a new condenser can be fitted and air gap adjusted after cleaning the points. There are right & left versions with different tones but I don't know how to tell one from the other.

weemark · 10-15-2016, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

This is a Model A horn but the wire connections are the same.

Bob

Bob yes I can see the wires have been soldered on but I can also see where the bullet connectors would push into the fitting.

weemark · 10-15-2016, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The old Sparton CL4 horns had bullet connectors that used to fit into those clips where the wires are soldered. A previous owner may have had problems with them coming loose. These horns were used from 1933 through 1935 and maybe later on some trucks. They were good units and well worth repairing. I'm sure a new condenser can be fitted and air gap adjusted after cleaning the points. There are right & left versions with different tones but I don't know how to tell one from the other.

Your right, it may be the previous owner had issues with wires coming out, I don't know tbh. Now I know how the horns work I will have a look at the points and clean them up and set the gap properly to see if they work any better.

I'm sure the capacitor/ condenser is fine, it's just the outer shield on the wire connected to it is damaged. I could put some heat shrink over the wire to ensure its protected again though.

koates · 10-15-2016, 11:04 PM

Mark, Your 1935 6 volt Sparton horns should not be operated on direct 12 volts. Severe arching across the contacts will burn them out much more quickly and the horns tone will be sadly lacking. A suitable resistor should be fitted in the supply wire to each horn to lower the voltage and current drawn. Resistors are available from MACS part number is 28-62259-1 for a 6 amp draw or experiment and make your own. Also that original capacitor connected across the contacts in each horn to reduce contacts arching would have long ago lost its specifications to do the job properly. Purchase new capacitors from an electronics store or on line. Specs for the capacitor are 400 to 600 volts and .2 mfd. Now some people connect both horns in series instead of the original parallel wiring. This has the effect of reducing the current (amps) going through each horn. But with two sets of contacts of both horns operating in series one tends to effect the operation of the other and so the horns sound somewhat OFF tune and not a good idea at all in my opinion. They were designed to operate on 6 volts to produce a nice sound and tone and any variation on this is out of spec. Regards, Kevin.

FlatheadTed · 10-15-2016, 11:42 PM

On the lower picture were the blue wire is soldered the bullet goes at right angles to that you can see the square hole in the insulator block .it contacts the brass that's there .

Brian · 10-16-2016, 01:03 AM

Koates is correct in saying that you should not operate these horns on 12 volts. I respect his knowledge as he is a very experienced auto electrician. That said, I have operated my 35 Fordor on 12 volts for the past twenty five years, and the horns still work! No resistors- original 6 volt cloth braided wiring looms.

chuckwp · 01-04-2021, 07:32 PM

I am working on a '35 that has been converted to 12 volts. First off, I did not do the wiring conversion. This is a project car in a shop and the person that installed the wiring is long gone. It is an American Autowire HWY 15 system. I have verified that the horn switch on the wheel activates the relay in the fuse block and sends current to the horn.
It has the original horn which does not work. I did apply 12 volts to it and nothing happened. I understand that it should not be operated with 12 volts now. The picure with the dome removed shows how the previous person connected the horn. The green wire is the hot. When testing continuity between the two studs, it showed to be an open circuit. After much patience and cursing, I was able to remove the screw holding the two halves of the horn together. It seems as though the stud to which the ground wire was attached to (circled in red) goes to nothing. So, how is it supposed to work? The other stud has continuity to the solder connection -shown with yellow line. Maybe I am not understanding but, the stud the ground was connected to should have continuity to something. Also, just where is the capacitor?
I do not see it at all.

smittyj23 · 02-01-2021, 10:25 AM

I could use a picture too please. I have a single CL-4. Thank you in advance.

smittyj23 · 02-01-2021, 10:55 AM

Hello everyone! New member here. Told about this site by a very helpful guy.

I need help with what I believe is a Sparton CL-4 deluxe. I tried uploading a picture of it 6 times to no avail. Could someone help with the following please:
1) a picture of how the wires are connected under the bell and
2) where can I purchase the bracket and screw that the bell attaches to? Wiring too possibly. I've sourced a bell and external mounting bracket.

The single horn I have is a 12 volt horn. I know this because I hooked it up to a 6 volt battery (from my 48 Nash) and nothing. I then hooked it up to a power supply that goes from 0 volts to 20 volts and at 12 volts it honks (after I cleaned contacts,etc.), but again at 6 volts nothing.

Thank you for any help.

VeryTangled · 02-01-2021, 10:58 AM

The diagrams were provided by Don Rogers, I think.

Lawson Cox · 02-01-2021, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckwp

I am working on a '35 that has been converted to 12 volts. First off, I did not do the wiring conversion. This is a project car in a shop and the person that installed the wiring is long gone. It is an American Autowire HWY 15 system. I have verified that the horn switch on the wheel activates the relay in the fuse block and sends current to the horn.
It has the original horn which does not work. I did apply 12 volts to it and nothing happened. I understand that it should not be operated with 12 volts now. The picure with the dome removed shows how the previous person connected the horn. The green wire is the hot. When testing continuity between the two studs, it showed to be an open circuit. After much patience and cursing, I was able to remove the screw holding the two halves of the horn together. It seems as though the stud to which the ground wire was attached to (circled in red) goes to nothing. So, how is it supposed to work? The other stud has continuity to the solder connection -shown with yellow line. Maybe I am not understanding but, the stud the ground was connected to should have continuity to something. Also, just where is the capacitor?
I do not see it at all.

My horns don't look like THAT on the inside. I can't post pictures on Fordbarn. I only have a Master's Degree.

mercman from oz · 02-01-2021, 08:33 PM

Wiring Diagram for 1935 Ford Models.

SSsssteamer · 02-01-2021, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckwp

I am working on a '35 that has been converted to 12 volts. First off, I did not do the wiring conversion. This is a project car in a shop and the person that installed the wiring is long gone. It is an American Autowire HWY 15 system. I have verified that the horn switch on the wheel activates the relay in the fuse block and sends current to the horn.
It has the original horn which does not work. I did apply 12 volts to it and nothing happened. I understand that it should not be operated with 12 volts now. The picure with the dome removed shows how the previous person connected the horn. The green wire is the hot. When testing continuity between the two studs, it showed to be an open circuit. After much patience and cursing, I was able to remove the screw holding the two halves of the horn together. It seems as though the stud to which the ground wire was attached to (circled in red) goes to nothing. So, how is it supposed to work? The other stud has continuity to the solder connection -shown with yellow line. Maybe I am not understanding but, the stud the ground was connected to should have continuity to something. Also, just where is the capacitor?
I do not see it at all.

I have the same exact horn on my '36 pickup. No condenser in the horn. My horn rod didn't work, so I installed a starter button to honk the horn. Your wire that appeared to be grounded, is a grounded on my horn. The other wire is the hot wire from my horn button. Works great. There are several fine horn adjustments that have to be just right, or the horn will not honk.

Don Rogers · 02-02-2021, 12:19 AM

I am thoroughly confused by this thread, but getting back to the original question, here are three images showing the correct wiring and adjustment of a 35 Ford horn. If you go to 12 volts, you are on your own but heed the cautions expressed by others.

rotorwrench · 02-02-2021, 01:07 PM

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That diagram has a little different representation of a capacitor but it gets the job done. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since 1935. As for the photo of reproduction horns, there have likely been different reproductions over the years since. They will not look like originals unless they are manufactured like them.

Reading some service notes I've come across, it states to adjust a horn by the amount of amperage it pulls for a lot of the old vibrator horns. Finding specific specs may be hard to do now days. Add 12-volts to the mix and it all goes out the window. A dropping resistor might do the trick though but it still might not react in quite the same way. Horn vibrators are sensitive to voltage changes so the drop in resistance would have to equal the running voltage of the generator in operation.

jrryttr · 10-16-2021, 10:00 PM

This looks like a newer horn motor to me than a '35. Is it possible that it was a aftermarket replacement?

10-15-2016, 06:37 AM	#1
weemark Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: uk Posts: 367	1935 horns I'm wondering if someone can help me and post up a clear close up picture of the inside of a horn from 1935. I went to change the wiring on the horns on my car to new cloth covered wiring but when I opened them up they were a bit of a mess inside and at some point in the past someone has added plastic covered wiring and then soldered the wiring to the connections inside the horns but there is also other wiring inside the horns soldered together. I have no idea what ite meant to be like inside the horns or how the wiring is meant to be connected. I have also changed my car to 12 -earth. How will my horns cope with this? Can I get them changed to 12v or would a voltage dropped work with them? No idea where I wild put a voltage dropper though given the location of the wiring and the size of the horns. I've looked in my 35/36 book from the early ford club but it doesn't cover what I'm looking for. Last edited by weemark; 10-15-2016 at 06:42 AM.

10-15-2016, 08:02 AM	#2
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: 1935 horns There have been a number of past threads on this subject (6v to 12v on horns).

10-15-2016, 08:22 AM	#3
Terry,OH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,743	Re: 1935 horns The internal wiring of the horns is shown on Fords 1935 wiring diagram. It is very basic. The internal capacitor is wired across the points. The capacitor helps reduce arcing on the points. One side of the coil goes to one side of the points and the second wire from the coil goes to one of the terminal blocks. The other side of the points with just one capacitor wire has a second wire to the second terminal block.

10-15-2016, 09:08 AM	#5
JM 35 Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland Posts: 10,858	Re: 1935 horns Mark, I can post or email you a picture of the horn on my original 35 fordor with the domed cover removed when I get back home from a trip. __________________ *John* *"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein*

10-15-2016, 04:01 PM	#8
weemark Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: uk Posts: 367	Re: 1935 horns Jseery, yes I recognise all the components and understand how it should be done now. The White wire is soldered to a connction which has 2 wires soldered onto it also, one wire goes to the top of the points, the other wire goes to the capacitor. The blue/red wire is soldered to A connection and soldered to it is a black wire which goes under the points and to the bottom side of the points, there is also a second wire on the bottom side of the points which connects to the other side of the capacitor. When I hold the new loom in place it's obvious what wires go to what connections but I still can't see how I would connect the bullet connectors to the horn. Should the wires to the capacitor be connected via a small screw type connector, a bullet connector or should they be soldered on? Should the wires to the points be connected via a small screw so they can be removed or should they be soldered on?

10-15-2016, 04:06 PM	#9
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: 1935 horns Where the current wires are soldered "may" have been clips for the bullet connects, I have no idea. One way to connect to new wires (if you don't want to solder them directly as they now are) would be to solder some short pieces of wire in place with bullet connectors on them and use the original style couplers.

10-15-2016, 04:16 PM	#10
weemark Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: uk Posts: 367	Re: 1935 horns Yes I could solder pieces on to accept the new loom. I didnt want to just crack on and do something that isn't right hence the reason I asked for a picture of someone who has one that is right. I would rather have a picture of what should be there then I can start to address the issues. From memory the horns werent particularly loud or sounded of a pleasing tone, they were more like a quiet fog horn that was muffled with a pair of socks - if you can imagine a sound like that

10-15-2016, 04:44 PM	#12
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: 1935 horns The old Sparton CL4 horns had bullet connectors that used to fit into those clips where the wires are soldered. A previous owner may have had problems with them coming loose. These horns were used from 1933 through 1935 and maybe later on some trucks. They were good units and well worth repairing. I'm sure a new condenser can be fitted and air gap adjusted after cleaning the points. There are right & left versions with different tones but I don't know how to tell one from the other.

10-15-2016, 11:04 PM	#15
koates Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia. Posts: 2,078	Re: 1935 horns Mark, Your 1935 6 volt Sparton horns should not be operated on direct 12 volts. Severe arching across the contacts will burn them out much more quickly and the horns tone will be sadly lacking. A suitable resistor should be fitted in the supply wire to each horn to lower the voltage and current drawn. Resistors are available from MACS part number is 28-62259-1 for a 6 amp draw or experiment and make your own. Also that original capacitor connected across the contacts in each horn to reduce contacts arching would have long ago lost its specifications to do the job properly. Purchase new capacitors from an electronics store or on line. Specs for the capacitor are 400 to 600 volts and .2 mfd. Now some people connect both horns in series instead of the original parallel wiring. This has the effect of reducing the current (amps) going through each horn. But with two sets of contacts of both horns operating in series one tends to effect the operation of the other and so the horns sound somewhat OFF tune and not a good idea at all in my opinion. They were designed to operate on 6 volts to produce a nice sound and tone and any variation on this is out of spec. Regards, Kevin.

10-15-2016, 11:42 PM	#16
FlatheadTed Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auckland Posts: 4,700	Re: 1935 horns On the lower picture were the blue wire is soldered the bullet goes at right angles to that you can see the square hole in the insulator block .it contacts the brass that's there . __________________ http://www.flatheadted.com Flathead Ted brake Floaters ,

10-16-2016, 01:03 AM	#17
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: 1935 horns Koates is correct in saying that you should not operate these horns on 12 volts. I respect his knowledge as he is a very experienced auto electrician. That said, I have operated my 35 Fordor on 12 volts for the past twenty five years, and the horns still work! No resistors- original 6 volt cloth braided wiring looms. __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

02-01-2021, 10:25 AM	#19
smittyj23 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Posts: 8	Re: 1935 horns I could use a picture too please. I have a single CL-4. Thank you in advance.

02-01-2021, 10:55 AM	#20
smittyj23 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Posts: 8	Re: 1935 horns Hello everyone! New member here. Told about this site by a very helpful guy. I need help with what I believe is a Sparton CL-4 deluxe. I tried uploading a picture of it 6 times to no avail. Could someone help with the following please: 1) a picture of how the wires are connected under the bell and 2) where can I purchase the bracket and screw that the bell attaches to? Wiring too possibly. I've sourced a bell and external mounting bracket. The single horn I have is a 12 volt horn. I know this because I hooked it up to a 6 volt battery (from my 48 Nash) and nothing. I then hooked it up to a power supply that goes from 0 volts to 20 volts and at 12 volts it honks (after I cleaned contacts,etc.), but again at 6 volts nothing. Thank you for any help. Last edited by smittyj23; 02-01-2021 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Add more information.

02-01-2021, 08:33 PM	#23
mercman from oz Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 10,361	Re: 1935 horns Wiring Diagram for 1935 Ford Models.

02-02-2021, 01:07 PM	#26
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: 1935 horns Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) That diagram has a little different representation of a capacitor but it gets the job done. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since 1935. As for the photo of reproduction horns, there have likely been different reproductions over the years since. They will not look like originals unless they are manufactured like them. Reading some service notes I've come across, it states to adjust a horn by the amount of amperage it pulls for a lot of the old vibrator horns. Finding specific specs may be hard to do now days. Add 12-volts to the mix and it all goes out the window. A dropping resistor might do the trick though but it still might not react in quite the same way. Horn vibrators are sensitive to voltage changes so the drop in resistance would have to equal the running voltage of the generator in operation. Last edited by rotorwrench; 02-02-2021 at 01:18 PM.

10-16-2021, 10:00 PM	#27
jrryttr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 22	Re: 1935 horns This looks like a newer horn motor to me than a '35. Is it possible that it was a aftermarket replacement?