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10-05-2020, 02:01 PM | #1 |
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Missing at full throttle.
Earlier post noted that stronger return springs on the secondaries (Offy 3x2) fixed the erratic idle. It also seems to have fixed the problem of engine stalling when coming to a stop. Having those secondaries at anything other than tightly closed at idle creates all kinds of problems. So, hurray! However,
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...light=drolston Testing this fix involved getting on it hard enough to fully open the secondaries. The sound and fury is wonderful but it produces a minor but very noticeable miss. It is not an erratic or sputtering miss, but regular; like one or two cylinders are not firing. The ignition is all new 12v Pertronix; it just does not feel like an ignition problem. But, as often repeated on this forum, "most fuel problems are ignition problems," and vice versa. Schneider 245f cam with .350 lift is not radical, and valve springs are Lincoln with about 60-70 lb seat pressure. Happens at 3,000 - 4,000 rpm, so pretty sure it is not valve float. Electric fuel pump feeds through mechanical pump and a regulator that holds steady at 2.5 PSI. It does not act like fuel starvation, which would be sputtering and erratic. I suspect that one barrel of one of the secondaries is not feeding. The carbs are Speedway 9super7, which makes them automatically suspect. Is there any way to test for that in the garage? Pretty sure the floats are set right. Any other suggestions? |
10-05-2020, 02:26 PM | #2 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Cams and Petronix out of my league, but could it be your advance curve doesn't match the needs of your cam at higher revs?
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10-06-2020, 12:51 PM | #3 | |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Quote:
Any other ideas out there? |
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10-06-2020, 04:50 PM | #4 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Think the question is are you sure what the Petronix curve is? Or is it a pickup that is installed in an original distributor?
Charlie NY has posted on the Super97 having some issues (which can be corrected). |
10-06-2020, 07:29 PM | #5 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Try locking the outer carbs from opening and run on just the center carb. Narrow the problem to one of the outer carbs. Are you using copper core, spiral or carbon core wires? If using carbon core wires, I would run an ohm meter check on each wire.
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10-06-2020, 08:56 PM | #6 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
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10-07-2020, 04:52 PM | #7 | |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
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I will search through Charlie NY posts. Thanks. |
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10-07-2020, 04:55 PM | #8 | |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
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Pertronix recommends spiral core ignition wires, which I have. |
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10-07-2020, 05:05 PM | #9 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Secondaries for 9super7 carbs are built without idle circuits. The only sync necessary is to be double damn sure both secondaries go completely closed at idle. I spent hours with that manifold on the bench getting the throttle plates perfectly centered in the bores, with no binding, and the progressive linkage aligned so they both go closed exactly together. Not too hard to do on the 97s, because you can do it with the just the carb bases installed.
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10-07-2020, 06:43 PM | #10 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Think Charlie said they have leak issues. I'm getting ready to send him a set to look at.
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10-07-2020, 07:07 PM | #11 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Sorry, didn’t realize the 9super7s were built like that.....
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10-07-2020, 07:43 PM | #12 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Running a Petronix, I asssume you are running 12v with plug gaps at .035. The Petronix is added to a stock crab, distributor cap and rotor, the latter being used on plugs set at .025.
Querie- cap leaking causing the miss fire from the increased voltage to fire a .035 gap? |
10-08-2020, 01:25 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Quote:
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10-08-2020, 01:47 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Quote:
The floats were all off a lot. One too low and two too high. And in adjusting the float level, pay attention to the warning to not hold the float when bending the tab. Any stress on the point where the tab joins the nitrile float and you will cause the float to leak and sink. Yep! Just glad I have an electric fuel pump to test for leaks without running the engine. It was a gusher. |
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10-09-2020, 08:44 PM | #15 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Progress Report, or not.
Disconnected the progressive linkage from the secondaries, so that they stay closed at all times; but still missing at full throttle. So it is not the end carbs. Re-gapped the plugs down from .035 to .030 to see if the large gap (recommended by Pertronix) to see if the larger gap was causing crossfire somewhere in spark plug cables. Made no difference. But I did notice that one plug was black and maybe wet. Next move is to replace the Pertronix crab with a rebuilt stock points crab. I will report back on that. Any other suggestions? |
10-10-2020, 09:57 AM | #16 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Are you using Power Valves in the secondary carbs? I have dual 97s at 600 ft elevation and I had to change to 71 power valves in place of 65s. I am using stock mains.
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10-10-2020, 11:56 AM | #17 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
On the wet plug, I would check the continuity of the spark plug cable with an ohmmeter and if that is okay, then I would try a new distributor cap. I have seen strange things take place because of a defective cap that could not be seen with the naked eye. I do think I would not dump the Petronix because of a misfiring plug - I think the problem lays in the secondary. JMO.
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10-10-2020, 01:07 PM | #18 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
I am at about 500 ft elevation. Changed all three carbs from .045 to .047 main jets because the plugs were whitish. Now they show a little brownish, which seems more normal to me. Not getting any hesitation on throttle slams, so did not change power valves.
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10-10-2020, 01:09 PM | #19 | |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Quote:
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10-10-2020, 01:42 PM | #20 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
On the power valves, the engine would bog down when the throttle open the power valves and with the accelerator pumps disconnect, the engine responded very well -no bog. Hence, put in #71 power valves, which is half the size of a #65pv. Try disconnecting the accelerator pump rods and see what happens on wide open throttle. You might have to leave the center carb accelerator pump connected. Remember, you do not have the air flow thru all three carbs that you would have with a single carb. In other words, the pvs may be dumping more fuel than the engine can use.
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10-10-2020, 06:41 PM | #21 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Good call Bill OH. The spark plug wire for #2 cylinder with the black plug registered open circuit on my ohm meter. The others read about 4,000 Ohms per foot, which is correct for spiral wound ignition wires.
Hoped it would be a bad crimp job, which would be repairable, but no, - the circuit is open somewhere within the cable. |
10-10-2020, 09:57 PM | #22 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Pleased that you found the open cable. You can either obtain a new spiral cable and periodically check the spirals for continuity or install Packard 440 wires, which in my experience are very reliable. You can put you hand around them and not get shocked. I will be interested in your reply of the performance that you have now achieved from your efforts.
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10-11-2020, 12:00 AM | #23 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
I think it is a no on the Packard 440 with the electronic ignition.
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10-11-2020, 09:34 AM | #24 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
I think he is going to go to points and condenser - that is the reason for suggesting Packard 440. If he is going to stay with the Petronix then stay with the spiral.
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10-12-2020, 02:24 PM | #25 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Turns out the distributor end of #2 plug wire was broken. Replaced the end and measured continuity okay with the Ohm meter. But that cylinder was still not firing at idle. Replaced the carboned up and wet plug with a good plug (of a different type) and that cylinder now fires fine at idle.
I need to get the original (correct) plug back in before i give it the full throttle road test. I will clean up the fouled plug (torch, wire brush, carb cleaner) and report back. |
10-12-2020, 04:25 PM | #26 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
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10-12-2020, 08:21 PM | #27 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Cleaning the plug worked! Now firing on all 8. Smoother, faster idle and passed the throttle slam test in second gear. Almost. No missing, but started to lose power approaching 4,000 rpm. Then remembered to turn the electric fuel pump on. That almost fixed the loss of power at high rpm. I think I will turn the fuel pressure up from 2.5 psi to 3.0 psi and call it a day.
Thanks to all for helping me through this trouble shooting adventure. Especially Bill OH. |
10-13-2020, 09:45 AM | #28 |
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Re: Missing at full throttle.
Pleased that you found the problem with the ignition cable. You might keep in mind the size of power valves. As I mentioned earlier I had to go from #65 pv to 71 pv - half the size to prevent over rich mixture and bogging. I am running a 221 with Max 1 cam and dual 97s. And I can twist mine to 5500 rpm (1st and 2nd gear). Nice working with you. Enjoy your endeavor.
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