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Old 10-10-2017, 02:21 PM   #21
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: paint $$

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Originally Posted by Keith True View Post
I work on an A from time to time that was painted by time and materials. What was unusual was that the shop owner agreed to let the car owner watch all he wanted.The whole shop knew the old man well and didn't care if he watched.The owners back office had a window looking into the shop and the owner spent a lot of time there watching.The tech liked him there.The owner got to make every decision every time something unexpected came up. He felt for every dollar he spent he got value.He spent a lot of money,and he had to let some stuff slide until later when he could come up with more money.

Actually this is fairly common around my place. We allow customers to come work beside our guys, and all they do is sign a hold-harmless agreement. There have been several Fordbarners that have spent time working on their projects here. Actually, its' kinda fun to have them here and working. I hope Gordon, Ray, and others pipe-in about this.

And, we even have a 320 square foot guest quarters (pictured below) that we allow our customers and their spouses to stay in which has a king-sized bed, a full bathroom, a lounge area with couch that makes a bed, a TV, cable, Wi-Fi, and even access to a break-room with a full kitchen if they want to eat here. This guest room probably averages getting used one week out of a month. Then there are those like Will C. that comes but just stay in their motorhome and we run a cord in the parking lot for him/them.

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Old 10-10-2017, 03:12 PM   #22
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: paint $$

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A great discussion on this over at the AACA on a 1966 ish something or other Pontiac. The owner had the car for years and didnt want to restore it, but did want a mighty fine paint job.
Three shops refused to give an estimate, not knowing what they would encounter. All trim had to come off, bodywork, which was supposed to be very minor and then the finish. Finally a shop commits to around 25k, even though the owner knew it wasnt worth putting that much into, because it could never be gotten out, he agrees, because it was his pride and joy. Fast forward a year later and the bill is up to 40k and the car is still not done. The owner is sick and the shop, very reputable, has no idea what the final bill will be. A great thread with various viewpoints, as some of the views are from restoration shop owners.
A real conundrum!

I will never have this problem, as Maaco is alway good enough for me. I dont show any of my cars.

You know, that is a comment I have never understood. Where did this mentality originate? Very, VERY, few commodities in life are items that you can get more at a sale than what you paid.

Generally folks have no problem understanding when they go purchase a new vehicle that 30 minutes after they bought it that it isn't worth what they gave for it. The lunch I purchased today is not worth what I gave for it now, ...or I go on about purchasing a new boat, motorcycle, RV, or whatever! So why do some think they must not put more money into something than what they can sell it for??

And, like it was pointed out to me, usually when someone sells something used for more than what they paid, someone other than that Seller got taken advantage of (--either they took advantage of the person they bought it from or misrepresented it to the new Buyer).
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: paint $$

In 1958, an Earl Schieb paint job was $19.95. The shop in the 7000 block of El Cajon Blvd. in San Diego allowed us to prep the car by removing the chrome and sand as per the manager. The trick was to be the last car of the day so that your car would remain in the booth over night.

The price of a gallon of paint has more to do with regulations than pigments.
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:28 PM   #24
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Brent,
dont shoot the messenger, only relaying a very interesting story on the AACA and what was said.

Final point, the owner of the car was asking a basic question- what should I expect and was not
demeaning the shop in any way. Just wtd to know how far something like this should go and wasnt at all implying that he had been cheated. I believe his question was well deserved and it is a fine point between what one should expect and consequently, what should be delivered. Not always an easy outcome.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:15 PM   #25
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I was talking to a guy from Pollack's shop one day (Pollack's restoration s, Pottstown, Pa) and he was telling me about billing customers a $2 grand a week and when the customers show to see how their "Baby" is coming along and it isn't, or at least not so's anyone would notice, then the going get's tough! Funny, how you can put a weeks worth of honest work into something and not have it show. I've done it myself! Which is why I recommend that every one paint your own damn car at least once, and see just what goes into a paint job. BTW how are those Rustoleum jobs, that I was always hearing about, holding up?
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:36 PM   #26
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Well,Standing Elk.Has everyone scared you into a heart attack yet? I think the thing for you to do is decide what level of end product you will be happy with and talk to shops around you.I don't know what rates are like where you are,but they seem to be $65-$75 per hour around here.I haven't asked in a couple of years.I also just saw one word in your post that can easily add THOUSANDS to your paint job.Black.Bodywork that looks gorgeous in white,red,green,etc,will look absolutely horrid in black.It needs to be perfect to paint black.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:52 PM   #27
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I certainly would not use maaco. It takes the same amount of time to spray a good job as a ba job. All the time is in preparation.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:04 PM   #28
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I can tell you where the mentality originated with me, it was with buying and renting old houses. I started fixing up and renting older houses and selling them at a good profit and painting was such a big part of how people viewed it, Just as a car with good paint is seen as better than one without. Buying paint at good prices is very important to your profit picture. You soon discover "Mistints". They are cans (sometimes 5 gal buckets) of new, good quaiity paint that goes for pennies on the dollar. It is almost impossible to get white because these are rejected by someone for being the wrong shade. I had a tenant who loved the deep forest green and asked me to replace it when I was doing some work in her apartment. She was a nice lady and I didn't mind spending a little extra for her. As luck would have it, I found 2 gals of it in the mis tint shelf of the local paint store, $3 bucks a gal for a high quality paint that would have cost me $ 36 a gal. The old lady was very happy and so was I. I recently got 2 five gal buckets of semi gloss white for $15 @, again , very happy! They would have retailed for over $150 a bucket. This , plus a year or two of rent allows me to make a reasonable profit. In the past, my friend Dick and I were riding along in my truck and we saw some old steel cabinets (1950s) as greasy as they were, we loaded them up, took them back to his buildings where they were stored until he needed them for one of his houses, they turned out to be a perfect fit. Dick bought that property for $16 K (1970s) and rented it for $800 a month. It was four units. So, you can flip houses and cars and just about anything for a profit, we'd just like a little cooperation from the paint manufacturers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
You know, that is a comment I have never understood. Where did this mentality originate? Very, VERY, few commodities in life are items that you can get more at a sale than what you paid.

Generally folks have no problem understanding when they go purchase a new vehicle that 30 minutes after they bought it that it isn't worth what they gave for it. The lunch I purchased today is not worth what I gave for it now, ...or I go on about purchasing a new boat, motorcycle, RV, or whatever! So why do some think they must not put more money into something than what they can sell it for??

And, like it was pointed out to me, usually when someone sells something used for more than what they paid, someone other than that Seller got taken advantage of (--either they took advantage of the person they bought it from or misrepresented it to the new Buyer).
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:57 AM   #29
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Well Terry,
100% understand what you are saying, though house paint and car paint are 2 different animals.
I pickup all of my mistints for my houses from the local Sherwin Williams store. They call me about 2x a year and I have to take everything that is mistinted. Our agreement is 1. a gallon. I have learned to blend my own colors pretty well, so I know how to get rid of a gallon of pink or purple when necessary.
They are only too grateful for me taking the paint. They were paying much more to get rid of it and it looks good on their books that they dont lose money.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:26 AM   #30
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You know, that is a comment I have never understood. Where did this mentality originate? Very, VERY, few commodities in life are items that you can get more at a sale than what you paid.
Funny, I was struggling with this on painting my 32 Tudor. I think it is not so much that adding a $10k to $15k paint job is more than what I can sell it for. I think it is more that I can buy a nicely done car while selling mine for.

I am also realizing though, that in the end I am getting MY car which I will 100% know what has and hasn't been done to, and the history of working on restoring the car. In the end the cost will be about the price of a new mid range sedan... I will take the 32....
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:57 AM   #31
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Don't let them find out about Habitat for Humanity! They can donate it to them and get a nice write off. And don't ignore H For H for parts. They area construction junkyard. When my home in NJ was listed, some lookee loo accidentally broke the thermopane sash. I priced a new one from Anderson $195 !! I gagged! I checked H for H and they had one, $5.
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Well Terry,
100% understand what you are saying, though house paint and car paint are 2 different animals.
I pickup all of my mistints for my houses from the local Sherwin Williams store. They call me about 2x a year and I have to take everything that is mistinted. Our agreement is 1. a gallon. I have learned to blend my own colors pretty well, so I know how to get rid of a gallon of pink or purple when necessary.
They are only too grateful for me taking the paint. They were paying much more to get rid of it and it looks good on their books that they dont lose money.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:24 AM   #32
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I finally got tired of paying BIG bucks for lousy paint jobs on my Corvettes and Model A's, so in the early 1980's I bought the necessary equipment (compressor, good spray gun, hose, filters, etc.) for FAR less than one paint job had been costing me. After a learning curve and upon finally settling on PPG products, I was doing my own paint jobs and saving thousands of dollars per car. I still color sand and buff out the final paint because of the almost inevitable orange peel left in modern paints, even after thinning and increasing the air pressure.
Before going to my own equipment, however, I learned that I could save a BUNCH of money if I did as much prep work as possible before turning the car over to the "professionals" for the spray job. 90% of a car's paint job is body work and preparation for color. That is by far the most time-consuming element in a paint job and the thing that will cost you the most. If at all possible, get the car into primer. Not rattle can primer, but a good surfacer-sealer, preferably catalyzed. By getting the car into primer after body work, you will save thousands of dollars. It doesn't take long for the shop to spray the actual paint. It's almost free money for them because of the low time element involved. If they color sand and buff the car afterwards, that'll be an additional large chunk of time that will cost you. You could color sand the car yourself with 1000, 1500 and 2000 grit paper and save a ton of money in labor charges. Then have the shop buff out the paint if they are willing to let you do the prep color sanding. Assuming the paint was applied thick enough (i.e., the painters know you will be color sanding and then buffing), color sanding is almost bullet-proof, as long as you pay attention to sharp edges and corners. The grit of paper you'll be using isn't coarse enough to go through the paint, unless it was applied too thin. Anyone with even marginal physical dexterity can color sand a Model A and its parts, especially if those parts have been removed prior to painting. You will get a MUCH better spray job if you remove all fenders and splash aprons prior to color being sprayed.
There are many options for saving money when going to a professional, but they all involve commitment on your part. As Terry in NJ states, once you have done your own prep work on a Model A, you'll understand why paint shops charge so much. Time, time and more time. Yes, paint and supplies are expensive, but it's the labor they charge for prep that drives the price sky high.
In a nutshell, the more you do, the more you'll save. If you can do little or none of it, a paint job will be a very expensive proposition, whether you are painting a Tudor Sedan or a Roadster, especially if going two colors (or even three tone in 1928!).
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:02 AM   #33
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Default Re: paint $$

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Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut View Post
I finally got tired of paying BIG bucks for lousy paint jobs on my Corvettes and Model A's, so in the early 1980's I bought the necessary equipment (compressor, good spray gun, hose, filters, etc.) for FAR less than one paint job had been costing me. After a learning curve and upon finally settling on PPG products, I was doing my own paint jobs and saving thousands of dollars per car. I still color sand and buff out the final paint because of the almost inevitable orange peel left in modern paints, even after thinning and increasing the air pressure.
Before going to my own equipment, however, I learned that I could save a BUNCH of money if I did as much prep work as possible before turning the car over to the "professionals" for the spray job. 90% of a car's paint job is body work and preparation for color. That is by far the most time-consuming element in a paint job and the thing that will cost you the most. If at all possible, get the car into primer. Not rattle can primer, but a good surfacer-sealer, preferably catalyzed. By getting the car into primer after body work, you will save thousands of dollars. It doesn't take long for the shop to spray the actual paint. It's almost free money for them because of the low time element involved. If they color sand and buff the car afterwards, that'll be an additional large chunk of time that will cost you. You could color sand the car yourself with 1000, 1500 and 2000 grit paper and save a ton of money in labor charges. Then have the shop buff out the paint if they are willing to let you do the prep color sanding. Assuming the paint was applied thick enough (i.e., the painters know you will be color sanding and then buffing), color sanding is almost bullet-proof, as long as you pay attention to sharp edges and corners. The grit of paper you'll be using isn't coarse enough to go through the paint, unless it was applied too thin. Anyone with even marginal physical dexterity can color sand a Model A and its parts, especially if those parts have been removed prior to painting. You will get a MUCH better spray job if you remove all fenders and splash aprons prior to color being sprayed.
There are many options for saving money when going to a professional, but they all involve commitment on your part. As Terry in NJ states, once you have done your own prep work on a Model A, you'll understand why paint shops charge so much. Time, time and more time. Yes, paint and supplies are expensive, but it's the labor they charge for prep that drives the price sky high.
In a nutshell, the more you do, the more you'll save. If you can do little or none of it, a paint job will be a very expensive proposition, whether you are painting a Tudor Sedan or a Roadster, especially if going two colors (or even three tone in 1928!).
Marshall
IMO, everything you have posted is true IF you enjoy doing that sort of thing. In my lifes experience, when taking on these sorts of things simply to save money, it's almost always false economy. Money is the most renewable resource there is but your TIME is precious and once a minute of your life is spent, you never get it back. When you consider the cost of tooling, the time and materials to LEARN to do a good job, then the time to DO that good job assuming you can do as good a job as the GOOD professionals do (not always the case), often it is better to do something you are already good at (your regular job perhaps) and earn the money to pay the professional to do what THEY know how to do. If you ENJOY learning to paint your own cars, that's completely different. The pleasure you get has value as you are enjoying each precious minute of your limited life you are spending. If you are doing it ONLY to save money it can be very expensive as far as "cost" in life's big picture. The other thing to consider, and this applies to restoring a car as opposed to buying one already restored, is that the time you spend working on your car in your spare time is time you COULD be spending driving your car and enjoying it. Just a few things to consider when deciding on how much work you want to do and how much you should pay others to do. It's different for everyone.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:36 AM   #34
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Funny, I was struggling with this on painting my 32 Tudor. I think it is not so much that adding a $10k to $15k paint job is more than what I can sell it for. I think it is more that I can buy a nicely done car while selling mine for.

I am also realizing though, that in the end I am getting MY car which I will 100% know what has and hasn't been done to, and the history of working on restoring the car. In the end the cost will be about the price of a new mid range sedan... I will take the 32....
Generally speaking, nothing could be further from the truth based on my first-hand experiences. I cannot begin to tell you how many people I have spoken with about restoring their car and they tell me "I will just sell mine and buy one that is already restored for less money, ...only to be calling me wanting to get their newly purchased one repaired. Then they realize with all the things that will need repairing on their new one, it wasn't as nice of a car as they were lead to believe before the purchase.

Think about it, families/people generally do not sell a car if they are still using it and having fun with it. More often than not, it is the unreliable ones that have issues that get sold simply because someone is tired of fooling with it.
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Old 10-11-2017, 04:00 PM   #35
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Good Point! When acquiring that "new" one, you have to trust the previous owner's craftmanship, That is, his ability to hide his crappy work! I hate to be cynical, But! Case in point, My second coupe, with green wheels and no primer. The car looked good until after I had it a short while and some of the paint came off and Viola! Bare metal. Investigation showed it was all over the car. He just layed the coat on the car and got the For Sale sign on as quickly as possible. The guy I got it from didn't know how to rebuild the steering box either, or get the crap out of the tank, or fix the shorted ignition switch, or the front spring perch, or any of the other hidden problems that he bought for $13,000 (I didn't pay anywhere near that so he took a whopping loss!) The moral is, he bought a nice looking coupe that someone had "Restored" to save money. Would it have been cheaper to do it himself? Probably not. But it would have been better in the sense that it would have been a more honest car. There are very few people whose work I trust.
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Generally speaking, nothing could be further from the truth based on my first-hand experiences. I cannot begin to tell you how many people I have spoken with about restoring their car and they tell me "I will just sell mine and buy one that is already restored for less money, ...only to be calling me wanting to get their newly purchased one repaired. Then they realize with all the things that will need repairing on their new one, it wasn't as nice of a car as they were lead to believe before the purchase.

Think about it, families/people generally do not sell a car if they are still using it and having fun with it. More often than not, it is the unreliable ones that have issues that get sold simply because someone is tired of fooling with it.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:29 PM   #36
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Brent brought up many excellent points in his post #11 as well as above and including Marshalls points. Doing metal and paintwork myself I can tell you how many hours it takes and most folks have no idea. The careful metalwork and subsequent steps of proper metalwork and undercoats and sanding to prep for final paint is crucial to a good job. If you want the good job you just have to understand it takes time and it is what it is. If you want to do it yourself then do so.

I do disagree that "anyone" can do colorsanding and good prep. There is a skill, talent, and process to it all. It shows in the final product. Additionally... the cost of the applied products are all expensive. Yes, I too think they are way overpriced. I would like to see that changed. Hard to understand why is DP 40 $400 Gallon?

In then end you have to evaluate what kind of job you want and who you want to do it. I believe that if most folks had to go through the proper process and do the job right that they would understand and appreciate the fact of the time and cost it really takes to do it well.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:30 PM   #37
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In my shop, a scuff and shoot starts at $4,000 with absolutely no guarantee of lifetime of paint because the paint job is onlh as good as what's underneath it. That's base/clear and a sealer if needed, and some MINOR body work or chip repair. My full metal up paint jobs usually end up in the $15-20k range for just paint. My knock down drag out paint jobs usually require 400+ hours and $2-3,000 in paint material. A scuff and shoot still usually takes me around 40 hours on a model a because of all the pieces. There is absolutely nothing fast about painting a model a even when you try to do it the quick and easy way. Hopefully this is a a simple enough answer to the original question from someone who is in industry.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:16 PM   #38
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And to think of how many Model A's were painted with a brush over the years!!
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:34 AM   #39
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and how many will still be painted with a brush........................
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:00 AM   #40
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All of what has been said is why a great paint job costs a bunch of money. Been involved in painting for near 55 years and if done right there are no shortcuts. As has been said time = money, a sign on a gas station I worked at as a teenager said "Confucius said, ask for cheap job, get same" If you don't know the people that you are thinking about to paint your car you best do some research before you commit to spending a lot of money with them. Over the years I have been told many stories about body and paint jobs costing north of 15K with the results of little value.
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