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Old 10-09-2017, 11:12 AM   #1
Standing Elk
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Default paint $$

I have a newly acquired 30 standard coupe. Whoever painted it did not do as good of a job as they could have. I am going to have it repainted, only the exterior needs to be done and thankfully the body work is done and was done well. I do not have the knowledge to do the paint myself so will need to have it done. So, a question for you guys that had a shop paint your car. Body work already done, just a regular black base coat clear coat paint job what did you have in your paint job? I know there are some variables but all I am looking for is a ball park cost before I get to excited about taking it in to get an actual estimate. Thanks
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:01 PM   #2
Dick Carne
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Default Re: paint $$

I am certainly no expert, but in my opinion, in order to do a nice repaint on an otherwise solid car, I would think it necessary to take the paint down to as close to the metal as possible, which by definition would seem to suggest a fair amount of sanding (any other method would seem to "undo" any body work that had been previously performed). That being said, as with most paint jobs, the majority of the work is done before any actual final finish paint is applied. On my last painting project, I believe that my actual cost was between $5,500 and $6,000 (all but final finish work had been done on the body, and I had all new fenders, aprons and hood, and I supplied the paint). I have also heard of others who have incurred costs in excess of $10K. These were all what I would call very nice paint finishes when completed. However, if you are looking for a finish at a much lower cost, I would still think that you are looking for something at a minimum of being in the $3-$5,000 range, but at that price, I don't think that the quality would be nearly as nice. Again, just my opinion, but good luck to you, regardless of what ultimate decision you might make.
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:26 PM   #3
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: paint $$

Take it to painters and see what they say.

Often they do not want the job unless they are taking it down to metal. Too many unknowns cause every layer could be done wrong and is waiting to fail.

I would also have you think about single stage paints. BC/CC can be too glossy for what the original paint would have actually looked like. Single stage, especally buffed, takes on something closer to the original sheen.

Prices, well I have been told that $7000 to $10,000 to get a paint job done right. Prep work is killer and the A has lots of little things that need attention before paint, if you want it to look half decent. I have seen a lot of poor paint jobs.
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: paint $$

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
Take it to painters and see what they say.

Often they do not want the job unless they are taking it down to metal. Too many unknowns cause every layer could be done wrong and is waiting to fail.

I would also have you think about single stage paints. BC/CC can be too glossy for what the original paint would have actually looked like. Single stage, especally buffed, takes on something closer to the original sheen.

Prices, well I have been told that $7000 to $10,000 to get a paint job done right. Prep work is killer and the A has lots of little things that need attention before paint, if you want it to look half decent. I have seen a lot of poor paint jobs.
agreed - best to remove all the parts that are going to be black from the body color (so all fenders, splash aprons which involve slightly lifting the body.) Then you gotta dissassemble the hood and someones gotta sand that down.

Then ya gotta figure out what your going to do about the roof, firewall, etc...

So yea id go with 7-10K if you want it done right.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: paint $$

$7-10k does sound somewhat high. But then there's a lot that goes into it, a lot! I think everyone should paint a car once in his life, just to see what's involved. The prep work! Oyy
the Prep work! Taking it to bare metal (probably not necessary in this case) and the sanding, the never ending sanding! Then the priming and more sanding! Not counting the Epoxy base primer coat, I've got 4 coats of primer and Evercoat on the fender and it's still not done, but they were rough. So after taking it to bare metal. welding and grinding what needed it, pickling it with vinegar, then phosporic acid. then applying Metal Fusion to rough out the repairs, sanding, then priming with epoxy, then appliing Evercoat , I've finally got it to where I can paint it. For me, maybe 40-50 hrs, per side, yes everyone should do one once!
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:11 PM   #6
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Good question but tough to answer 'cause there are many variables as stated. Location labor rates vary and some paint types are not available in states like Cal. with tough VOC , omissions, laws. As suggested , a single stage paint has the color all the way through with no clear top coat. Any defects are easier to polish out and chips are sometimes easier to repair with single stage. Wheels are usually painted with single stage if not powder coated.
There are a couple of extremes depending on your fusiness: have a chain shop redo it with single stage over the sealed existing finish and ask for a guarantee. The other extreme is to take it down to metal or as close as possible, and in coastal states with higher labor rates, the cost can be $20,000 or more depending on prep. We know folks who live in Cal. and send their cars out of state to get lacquer or banned paints and lower rates. The modern base coats in VOC restriced states are usually water borne (reduced solvents) but the top clear coats are solvent based and are the weather barrier coat, which need to be top quality.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:54 PM   #7
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In the end, all depends on the quality you want and the price you want to pay.

some folks are happy with a 3k Maaco job and others arent even happy with a 20k paint job.
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: paint $$

There's the old triangle: Fast, good, cheap. You can have two of these, but not all three. If it's fast and good it's not going to be cheap, if it's fast and cheap it's not going to be good, etc.
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: paint $$

Earl Schiib...................29.95 any car ! ! !

re-sale red is nice.
Paul in CT




Paint is expensive, also would depend if you're doing door jams, inside trunk/rumble seat? 5-6K probably, UNLESS you could find a "good" painter who has access to a booth over a weekend.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: paint $$

I hope you have better luck than I did finding someone that will even touch it. I tried a half-dozen different paint shops and most of them said they only do collision work and not any restorations. Another guy told me he would only paint it if he could hot rod it first, starting at 25+ grand. Another guy hee-hawed around and finally told me "around $10,000" but he made it clear he did not want the job. I finally found an old guy in a small town who has done many A's in his life and would do it for 4-7 thousand, depending on what he all found.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:28 AM   #11
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Default Re: paint $$

I lurked on this one to see the responses first. While I would like to abstain from quoting prices, I am going to ask a few questions and make a few comments.

If the topcoat "was not done as well as it could have been", then how do you know what is under it was done well too?

If "just the outside" is all you want painted, how do you propose them to paint it and make it look decent? Let's start with the top insert. Are you thinking you want them to try to mask off the top material and the moldings, -remove the moldings, --or?? Any way you try to go here opens up a real can of worms unless the moldings and tops material is removed and reinstall the molding over the new paint for that clean & correct look.

What about the windshield frame? How do you propose to do that area? Do you want them to paint it with it closed where it will look like heck when it is opened? If you want to paint it with it open, consider how much work is involved sanding and masking to keep sanding dust and paint out of the interior and the glass.

Speaking of glass, look closely at the quarter and rear window glass where it is mounted against the sheetmetal. How do you propose to mask this? Paint does not stick well to rubber, and can you imagine how that tape line will look if the paint stops just short of the edge?

What do you suggest the painter do about the door overlap? Should the body be sprayed with the doors closed to keep paint out of the interior? If so, the paint will look good with the doors closed, but hideous when the door is opened. Matter of fact, the jamb area are going to look mismatched and sloppy unless they are sprayed like the exterior, ...but what do you do about masking the windlace? How do you mask the interior now to keep the sanding dust and paint overspray out of the interior?

Since we mentioned the doors, what about the deck door (rumble/deck lid) edges and drip rails? If you just repaint the outer skin and not the edges, how will that look? The same with cowl lamps (if equipped) or the cowl band. What about the hood and panels or the cowl lacing? There just isn't a good place to stop, and think about how much masking there will be just trying to save time by not removing them.

This now brings us to fenders and aprons. Without getting into the difficulties of matching black colors between existing and the new, surely you do realize the fenders will need to be repainted to match the other color of black on the body. So are we suggest painting overtop of the weltings? What about the tail light stands or around the spare tire area? To do a good job on the fenders really requires them to come off, ...but remember on a '30, the body needs to be lifted to get the fronts off. Since it is difficult to sand paint on the upper portion of the body (splash) apron due to the body sills being so close, the aprons really need to come off also.


I could go on & on, but the brutal reality is there is no way to do a good job with painting unless a lot of work goes into dismantling the car first. As a shop owner, they also realize their name is attached to shoddy craftsmanship, -even if their paying customer was ok with it. The other brutal reality is they are likely worried the customer won't be happy with it when it is done, and now they must spend their time & energy trying to make a customer satisfied. Expectations have become too great, and the economy is strong now where anyone that is decent is covered up with work, so their mindset is why bother with something they figure will be a money-loser for them.

Turning this into a positive, I would instead take the car to a Detail Shop and see if they can color-sand & buff the existing paint to improve what you already have. If the car is not pinstriped, consider doing that afterwards as that really helps the overall look.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:22 AM   #12
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: paint $$

As Usual, Brent is correct! The voice of experience! In my case I'm removing everything. A progress report would look like this, front RH fender, done, hood and side panels, undersides, done, Front LH fender almost done. Some small parts done. I've begun to remove the rear fenders. Then the doors, Then I have a couple of patch panels to weld in place before tackling the body. The body will be hoisted off the chassis and the frame fixed as needed, then painted. I will also take the engine out and fit new lifters, check bearings etc. Everything that one does in a restoration. And assemble in reverse order.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:43 AM   #13
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Brent, well spoken.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I lurked on this one to see the responses first. While I would like to abstain from quoting prices, I am going to ask a few questions and make a few comments.

If the topcoat "was not done as well as it could have been", then how do you know what is under it was done well too?

If "just the outside" is all you want painted, how do you propose them to paint it and make it look decent? Let's start with the top insert. Are you thinking you want them to try to mask off the top material and the moldings, -remove the moldings, --or?? Any way you try to go here opens up a real can of worms unless the moldings and tops material is removed and reinstall the molding over the new paint for that clean & correct look.

What about the windshield frame? How do you propose to do that area? Do you want them to paint it with it closed where it will look like heck when it is opened? If you want to paint it with it open, consider how much work is involved sanding and masking to keep sanding dust and paint out of the interior and the glass.

Speaking of glass, look closely at the quarter and rear window glass where it is mounted against the sheetmetal. How do you propose to mask this? Paint does not stick well to rubber, and can you imagine how that tape line will look if the paint stops just short of the edge?

What do you suggest the painter do about the door overlap? Should the body be sprayed with the doors closed to keep paint out of the interior? If so, the paint will look good with the doors closed, but hideous when the door is opened. Matter of fact, the jamb area are going to look mismatched and sloppy unless they are sprayed like the exterior, ...but what do you do about masking the windlace? How do you mask the interior now to keep the sanding dust and paint overspray out of the interior?

Since we mentioned the doors, what about the deck door (rumble/deck lid) edges and drip rails? If you just repaint the outer skin and not the edges, how will that look? The same with cowl lamps (if equipped) or the cowl band. What about the hood and panels or the cowl lacing? There just isn't a good place to stop, and think about how much masking there will be just trying to save time by not removing them.

This now brings us to fenders and aprons. Without getting into the difficulties of matching black colors between existing and the new, surely you do realize the fenders will need to be repainted to match the other color of black on the body. So are we suggest painting overtop of the weltings? What about the tail light stands or around the spare tire area? To do a good job on the fenders really requires them to come off, ...but remember on a '30, the body needs to be lifted to get the fronts off. Since it is difficult to sand paint on the upper portion of the body (splash) apron due to the body sills being so close, the aprons really need to come off also.


I could go on & on, but the brutal reality is there is no way to do a good job with painting unless a lot of work goes into dismantling the car first. As a shop owner, they also realize their name is attached to shoddy craftsmanship, -even if their paying customer was ok with it. The other brutal reality is they are likely worried the customer won't be happy with it when it is done, and now they must spend their time & energy trying to make a customer satisfied. Expectations have become too great, and the economy is strong now where anyone that is decent is covered up with work, so their mindset is why bother with something they figure will be a money-loser for them.

Turning this into a positive, I would instead take the car to a Detail Shop and see if they can color-sand & buff the existing paint to improve what you already have. If the car is not pinstriped, consider doing that afterwards as that really helps the overall look.
Best paint job post I've seen in a long time. Really brings the amount of work involved into perspective for those that dont know.
I was going to suggest learning to live with a not-so-good paint job, but i like the detailer suggestion.Good Luck!
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:09 AM   #15
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Default Re: paint $$

Last year I had a retired professional fabricator and body man paint my Victoria. I planned to do the paint work myself, but cancer got in the way. The paint work, exclusive of some body work, cost $7000. The paint, primers, sand paper, masking, etc. cost over $2000.
190A Insurance Photo (c).jpg
Model As are prone to paint chipping and scratches, so I opted for a single stage urethane in lieu of clear coat because single stage is so much easier to repair. The paint on my Victoria is Nason Urethane by DuPont.

I also learned that there are many clear coat finishes, but you need to have one that has a very high resistance to the UV in the sunlight, and to scratching.

I have seen some really nice paint work done on Model As by MAACO. It is important to find a shop that will give you a flat rate for the paint job, and not charge you by the hour. You will also need a good guarantee for the paint including adhesion, and for the shop's workmanship.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:15 AM   #16
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Flamingo,
when I was in college, I would buy and flip cars. Earl Sheib was my go to "painter".

helped put me through school.....................!
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: paint $$

Brent:
Right on! Great post! I used to be in the business, we did mostly collision work, but in my avocation I have painted quite a few. A Model A Ford is a lot of work to do even a "decent" job on, much more labor to do a real quality job.

Brian W.
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Old 10-10-2017, 10:55 AM   #18
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Wow Bob, I sure hate to hear about your cancer. I hope & pray that is behind you for good now!!


I am going to play Devil's Advocate a bit towards a bit of Bob's post just to let everyone think thru this a tad further, and to confirm some of what he has stated.

Notice he said paintwork "exclusive of some bodywork", which generally means this can be expensive too depending on the method chosen to repair the panel. It can be as least time consuming as loading the panel full of filler (Bondo, Rage Extreme, etc.) and sculpting it to be smooth, -no matter the thickness, ....or it can mean using a hammer & dolly to straighten the panel. As stated above, Time = Money.

Paint lines such as Nason or PPG's Omni are indeed great choices for Model-As because of several things. The technology is older and as such, the price is cheaper. Second, the pigments on most of these lines are not as top quality which more closely replicates what original Ford's paint pigments would have looked like. The downside to Omni, Nason, and other similar lines is the quality of the binders and the UV hold-out is not as great as Chroma or Concept, but then again, for most of our cars, they are not exposed to vast amounts of sunlight on a daily basis. As Bob mentioned, some paints are softer and more susceptible to scratching, and this is due to the shell hardness, -or lack thereof. There is a fine balance between having a shell that is too hard vs. one not hard enough. Not hard enough does scuff/scratch easily and is difficult to color-sand and buff. The flip side is too hard of a shell just chips. Then to confuse the issue, there are 'supercharger' hardeners available for painters to use that increase the speed of the drying process that also embrittle the paint. The best process is to use a hotter solvent to allow the paint to flow without falling off in the floor. This takes a much higher skill level and ties up the booth for longer periods. (remember that Time = $$ thingie again!! )

Now my thoughts regarding a Flat Fee vs. Time & Materials goes like this. A warranty is only as good as the paper it is written on, and at our age we really do not have the $$ nor the energy to fight it out to make us whole. Now consider it this way. No one likes being taken advantage of. We live in a society where we expect to be treated fairly, --or else! So if I am required to give a firm price, as an honest businessman that must pay his bills first and then have enough left over to buy food, I am going to estimate the job as to what I think it will take, then add in a little more to cover what I may have overlooked, and then if I am smart, I will add in yet more $$ to make sure I don't lose money on this job. So the job that I felt could be done for $7k then had another $2k added just to cover the potential unknown and maybe another $3k added because of the guaranteed price. While the customer may accept the job for that price, imagine the feelings when I finished the job and I tell him it actually came in at $7,400.00, --however he still owes me $12k for the job. He is gonna be mad and tell everyone I overcharged him by 60%. Now you & I know the whole story, but imagine the story that will get told about how that customer got scre**d by the painter!

So lets look at it from the reverse side. If the job was bid at $7k, and the shop owner reached the $7k budget mark and there is about one days worth of work left, what do you think is the most likely thing that will happen? The law of averages says the shop owner knows he is losing money and at that point is looking for a way to cut his losses, so details begin to be overlooked that makes the job come out less than optimal. At this point, ...who actually wins?? The customer??

Now lets explore the fairest solution if both sides want to be fair and honest with each other. That is Time & Materials billing. The key component to making this method work is trustworthiness. That first begins with the shop owner trusting his client to have sincere expectations and be willing to pay accordingly at a fair market rate (i.e.: not expecting something for nothing.) The client has to have trust in the shop doing the work that they do have the experience & equipment to do the job to a satisfactory level, and they will be transparent with their documented time. A breach on either side of this trust causes an implosion. So now with the T&M billing, the client knows that if the shop owner is giving an honest accounting of their time & materials at the rate that customer agrees is a value, then both sides come out fairly. In the case of this scenario where the hypothetical job went over budget by 15%, the shop focuses on doing a great job not worrying about constrained budgets, and the customer know they received a value for the $$ they spent. For all we know, the original poster's paint job may have been done with a constrained agreed price where the painter was in over his head due to hidden work that needed to be done.

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Old 10-10-2017, 12:49 PM   #19
Keith True
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I work on an A from time to time that was painted by time and materials.What was unusual was that the shop owner agreed to let the car owner watch all he wanted.The whole shop knew the old man well and didn't care if he watched.The owners back office had a window looking into the shop and the owner spent a lot of time there watching.The tech liked him there.The owner got to make every decision every time something unexpected came up.He felt for every dollar he spent he got value.He spent a lot of money,and he had to let some stuff slide until later when he could come up with more money.The problem came later was with other people,not the owner.With people looking at the car and jibber-jabbering What came out the most was,for that kind of money you shoulda got this or you shoulda got that.He got what he paid for,and in reality a few freebies too.Because he elected to go over some old lead repair work the shop owner would not warranty the work either.I don't know of any shops around me that will flat rate work on old cars,and the ones that do it by the hour will not warranty at all unless it is done 100% their way,not the owners.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:31 PM   #20
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A great discussion on this over at the AACA on a 1966 ish something or other Pontiac. The owner had the car for years and didnt want to restore it, but did want a mighty fine paint job.
Three shops refused to give an estimate, not knowing what they would encounter. All trim had to come off, bodywork, which was supposed to be very minor and then the finish. Finally a shop commits to around 25k, even though the owner knew it wasnt worth putting that much into, because it could never be gotten out, he agrees, because it was his pride and joy.
Fast forward a year later and the bill is up to 40k and the car is still not done. The owner is sick and the shop, very reputable, has no idea what the final bill will be.
A great thread with various viewpoints, as some of the views are from restoration shop owners.
A real conundrum!

I will never have this problem, as Maaco is alway good enough for me. I dont show any of my cars.
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