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Old 09-26-2014, 03:02 PM   #1
fredv
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Default R10 Overdrive Issue

I have rebuilt a R10 overdrive and having an issue regarding the engagement of the OD. When the OD is not engaged with the control handle pulled out, the transmission works fine.
When the control handle is pulled in and when the car reach the speed the OD is supposed to engage, there is a noise which seems to be pinions clash in the OD unit.
The whole transmission have been rebuilt with NOS parts and all electral componants are new, except the solenoid (good used). The wiring is also new and follows the original electric control system.
The relay, kickdown switch, governor and solenoid are working when tested.
All the mechanical and electrical tests described in the shop manual have been successfully performed (OD lever position check, pawl engagement check, governor circuit check, solenoid circuit check, interrupter circuit check).
Note that the transmission has been not tested on the road, but with the car raised on stands.
One more thing, the oil capacity of the transmission is supposed to be 4 pints, but it seems that when I filled it, only 3 pints were sufficient (I filled from the top OD plug until the oil reach the top plug of the transmission case).
I hope there will be some OD experts here to help me to solve this problem.
Thank you for your help
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Old 09-26-2014, 04:16 PM   #2
Johnnydidd
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

try using a toggle switch on the selnoid only run it directly from the battery, if it works start hooking one item at a time.
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Old 09-26-2014, 04:34 PM   #3
fredv
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

Solenoid is energized and engages the pawl when the white governor wire is grounded with a jumper as described in the pawl engagement check procedure in the shop manual.
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Old 09-26-2014, 05:39 PM   #4
rotorwrench
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

R10 discription covers a lot of transmissions. Is this a Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, or some other type and what year is it? Did you overhaul it yourself (familiar to all internal parts)?

The reason I ask, is that there are some electrical differences that can have an effect and there are case differences between models.

If your solenoid is pushing the pawl up and the balk ring is stopping and there are noises, It would be time to take a good look at the planetary and sun gear for problems.

My old Mercury transmissions have to have the transmission and overdrive unit filled seperately. One won't carry through to the other on the ones I'm more familiar with.
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:31 PM   #5
scrapiron
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

You may need the rolling resistance of a road test to shift properly.
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:59 PM   #6
charles in east texas
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

Scrapiron may be correct! Take it for a road check an see if that makes any difference.
It did for me one time. Charles
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Old 09-26-2014, 10:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

You do not need any load for that O/D to operate. If there are gear type bad noises, there is an internal problem.
All B/W Overdrives are similar, if not identical, in operation (other than parts differences between R-10 and R-11)
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Old 09-26-2014, 10:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

The passage that allows oil to reach the OD part of the trans maybe blocked causing the noise you hear. My T-85/R11 has a fill plug to add oil to the OD. Try that.
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Old 09-27-2014, 01:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

Thanks all for your answers.
It's a 55 Ford R10F transmission (T-bird) identical to the previous R10 OD transmissions and I overhaul it myself.
Kahuna is right, all Bord Warner OD are similar in operation.
I am familiar with Ford 3 speed transmissions but it is my first overdrive and I found that the overhaul of the transmission was quite easy.

The OD unit and transmission are connected for lubrication as I filled the OD unit plug and oil come out from the transmission filling plug.

The only test I did not perfomed yet is to check the ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid.
To do so, the shop manual says that:
1 - the solenoid shall be removed from the transmission and attached to the adapter so that the solenoid stem can extend fully when the solenoid is energized.
2 - Connect the 2 wires and ground the governor wire to a jumper.
3 - with the engine running at fast idle, press the kickdown switch.
The engine shall stop.

I guess that this test shall be performed with no oil in the transmission as the solenoid is removed from the transmission and only attached to the adapter (in order to see if the solenoid stem extend fully).
Will it be possible to do this test with no harm to the transmission ?

This might be my problem, if the internal grounding contacts of the solenoid do not ground the ignition, the engine torque will not be interrupted and the planetary and sun gear might be unable to engage ?
Thanks again for ytour help.
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Old 09-27-2014, 05:09 AM   #10
charles in east texas
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

I would try the road test first. Chas
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Old 09-27-2014, 06:15 AM   #11
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

It sounds like the overdrive cannot engage because the throttle setting/load is not being sufficiently changed. The overdrive will not actually shift, at any speed, until the drive load is momentarily interrupted. This is done by accelerating to about 40 MPH and removing all throttle pressure for about 2 seconds and then resuming cruise or moderate acceleration patterns. This probably can be done more easily during actual road testing.
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Old 09-27-2014, 06:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

I will try road test.
I did the last check for ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid (with oil in the transmission case only).
I remove the solenoid from the adapter, attached it to the frame, and ground the white wire from the governor.
With ignition key turned on, the solenoid stem pulled out as it should.
With the engine running, I press the kickdown switch and the engine didn't stop as it should.
Do you think this could be the problem ?
The shop manual says that if the engine doesn't stop, solenoid must be replaced
JWL, when you say drive load, do you mean engine torque ? I guess that the grounding contacts inside the solenoid are supposed to interrupt the ignition and engine torque to allow the OD to engage ??
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Old 09-27-2014, 07:57 AM   #13
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

My take on the ground test is to ensure that the solenoid will ground the ignition so that the passing gear can kick in after the OD is already engaged. That set of ground points is closed and ready to ground the ignition when the kick down switch in pushed. The kick down switch opens the power to the solenoid and connects the ignition ground when pushed.
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Old 09-27-2014, 11:13 AM   #14
rotorwrench
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

The grounding action of the coil is momentary. It happens as the holding coil releases until it is fully released and opens the ground contacts.

The balk ring will not allow the overdrive pawl to engage unless the throttle is released which will then let the pawl go into the notch and lock the sun gear. The balk ring has to have some friction between it and the sun gear plate or it won't shift in. If the car is off the ground there could be a problem with shift in but it should still work just watching the speedo until the governor speed it reached. Bypassing the governor will allow it to shift in at any speed but may need a bit of rpm to work better. Using a direct solenoid switch would bypass all this stuff including the function relay.

If the function is normal on these parts and it still starts making noise, you have a problem in the planetary. There should be no noise from the planetary after shift into overdrive.

All the Borg Warner R10 electric overdrives function in the same manner but there are a lot of case differences. The first Lincoln ones were even torque tube drive units. Some had different reverse lock outs and some have lock out switches & some don't. By 1955 they had simplified the units a lot more. No lock out switch (rail switch) was used after mid 1951 on Mercury cars and maybe earlier on ford cars.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 09-27-2014 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 09-28-2014, 06:18 AM   #15
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

Thanks Rotorwrench, I agree that the OD shall engage even if the car is off the ground.
As I said, all tests described in the shop manual have been successfully performed, except ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid.
The engine doesn't stop when I press the kickdown switch.
Do you think I shall purchase a new solenoid ?
There is no lock out switch on my OD.
FYI, balk ring is new as well as planetary, rollers and rollers cage and spring.

Last edited by fredv; 09-28-2014 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 09-28-2014, 08:23 AM   #16
JWL
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

The ignition interrupt-ground switch is only used to return FROM overdrive engagement back to straight transmission drive. As mentioned previously, like going into "passing gear". The overdrive unit will not shift either up or down unless engine torque is temporarily removed from the driveline.
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Old 09-28-2014, 08:31 AM   #17
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

Try cleaning the contact points in the solenoid, sounds like no continuity through the ignition grounding contact points.
The overdrive has to see reverse torque to engage and disengage, as in the axle driving the trans, rather than the trans driving the axle. This is what happens when the ignition contact points are momentarily grounded on the road, in kickdown. And backing off the foot feed to change into overdrive. Not sure you can do this with out load (car driving on the road) the wheels up and just spinning, May not give adequate reverse torque.
Hope this helps,
Martin
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Old 09-28-2014, 09:54 AM   #18
rotorwrench
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

A person would be relying on the kinetic motion of the rear drive line instead of the entire weight of the car. This could have an effect on normal function but I can't answer that question. I just test drive them. If there is something wrong with the planetary, the damage is already done and it would be noisy. They have been known to lock up but you have to know whether it is functional or not in order to troubleshoot. It's not too bad a job to pull the overdrive and have a look in there if you have to. You just have to rubber band the sprag when it goes back on. I use the small rubber bands so they don't goo something up in there.

As scooder mentioned, just take to cap off the solenoid and check out the grounding points. There could be corrosion or something going on there. Most of the ones I've taken appart are in surprisingly good condition but it depends on where and how they have been stored.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 09-28-2014 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:09 PM   #19
fredv
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

Thanks, the solenoid contact points have already been cleaned and I will definitely go for a road test.
I am thinking to purchase a new solenoid as it seems that there is something wrong with it during the ignition grounding contacts check.
Below a few pictures when the OD was assembled













I will post pictures of the solenoid contact points later.
Thanks all for your help again.
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Old 09-28-2014, 06:13 PM   #20
rotorwrench
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Default Re: R10 Overdrive Issue

Everything looks pretty normal during assembly. The only thing not pictured is the planet carrier & shaft. That solenoid may have a weak input coil or a weak holding coil that won't keep engagement properly. The relay coil may also be weak or points dirty and not geting enough juice to the solenoid. Wiring condition is important too.
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