8BA valve retainers

[tubman]

Somehow, the valve retainers on my current build got "misplaced" at the machine shop, so I need a new set. First of all, are the retainers the same for rotating vs. non-rotating valves. Second, what's a good source?

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by tubman

Somehow, the valve retainers on my current build got "misplaced" at the machine shop, so I need a new set. First of all, are the retainers the same for rotating vs. non-rotating valves. Second, what's a good source?

Hi "tub", if you have any trouble locating them we keep the OEM's here (new) and the higher-end "Chromemoly's" (also new), both are for the 8BA!

If you need more help PM me, I don't have any prices at the moment! Can look them up later!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. It sure would be nice if everyone used at least first their name up here?? Even if it's not real??

[tubman]

Gary,

Thanks for the reply. My first name is "Denny". Are the retainers the same for rotating and non-rotating valves? I've only used complete sets before and don't know about the individual components. I'm guessing they're the same. Looking forward to getting your price.

Denny

[flatheadmurre]

The retainers are 2 piece for rotators and not interchanging with the 1 piece non rotating.
If we are talking the locks then they are the same and every lock with the same offset even chevys will fit

[GOSFAST]

Here's a shot below of both the stock retainers and the Chromemoly's on some stock (OEM) springs and some Isky 185-G's. This is 8BA only.

Like I stated above if you still need help just get back to me (tomorrow).

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Hi Denny, thanks for the first name, I probably knew it in the past but it's getting harder every day to remember every detail. Lately I've been keeping notes more that ever before!

[flatheadmurre]

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If the block has no valveseatinserts and he has the shorter rotator springs....just to find the rotators would be an easy route.
If the rotators do what they are supposed to and if they will so with the new unleaded fuel is a hole other debate...

[Ol' Ron]

I use rotators when ever I can for street engines and mild cams like the max#1. However the valves are also different. I think they are shorter. The bottom line here iz. when you put the assy together measure the instlled spring pressure. More than 50 lbs for a street engine can lead to excessive ware.
Good luck.

[tubman]

Thanks for the input Ol'ron. To clarify things, this block has hard seats on the exhausts only, and will have a genuine Isky Max-1 cam and kit. We are going the non-rotator route for valves on all 16.

Nobody has yet answered clearly wkether the rotator and non-rotator retainers are the same. Since the rotators use the "collar", I would think they would be different.

[Mac VP]

The actual valve spring retainers are different between the two styles of valves. The NON rotator valve uses the 8BA-6514 spring retainer.....this is considered the "one piece" type retainer. The factory valves are 8BA-6505 and 6507. The springs are either the 78-6513 or the 0BA-6513 which are interchangeable.

The ROTATOR type valves use a two piece spring retainer......the 1BA-6514 retainer and the 1BA-6517 sleeve. The factory valves are the 1BA-6505 and 6507. The springs are the 1BA-6513 which are shorter than the 78-6513 and 0BA-6513.

Both valve setups use the same split keepers, the same valve guides, and the same guide retainers. The rotator type valve components are not all available anymore. We stock the valves, the springs, and have a few sets of the above mentioned spring retainers for those who wish to keep these in action. Our kits, however, are the non-rotator type valves.

Hopefully this helps explain things for you.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by tubman

Thanks for the input Ol'ron. To clarify things, this block has hard seats on the exhausts only, and will have a genuine Isky Max-1 cam and kit. We are going the non-rotator route for valves on all 16.

Nobody has yet answered clearly wkether the rotator and non-rotator retainers are the same. Since the rotators use the "collar", I would think they would be different.

Hi Denny, Ron kind of answered the question, sort of anyway. The aftermarket valves (can't say for the OEM's) are the same length BUT the earlier one's have the keeper grooves down .260" (from the tips), the later ones have the grooves down only .200" to allow some add'l room (height) for the 2-pc rotators. We are still talking the 8BA platform, '48-'50 and '51-'53. The latter use the rotators.

These numbers are backed up here by the Manley valves I have on the shelf and all the other brands!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's another shot showing both setups, valves, std retainers and rotators! (Does anyone know if the total amount of photos ever posted is limited up here?)

[Ol' Ron]

I use stock ford valves and the two piece rotators retainers, then shim the short spring for 50 lbs.for the Max #1 both intale and exhaust. I believe, but can't prove it, this increases valve seat life. or why would fort bother to do it in the first place.??

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

... why would fort bother to do it in the first place.??

They did it to save money! Hardened valve seats aren't cheap and add several extra steps in machining. The rotators kept the valves from building up lead deposits, or made the deposits even. But the rotators won't prevent recession of the seats with unleaded gasohol -- mine lasted all of 500 miles at highway speed before sinking to the point there was no valve clearance. I had hardened seats installed, no more problems.

PS -- both intakes and exhausts receded.

[tubman]

"Mac VP", thanks for answering my question. I checked your website and only saw complete valve systems for sale. I only need the proper retainers. Do you sell them separately?

[Mac VP]

Which style retainers did you need?

[tubman]

To be clear, I would like to purchase 16 non-rotating valve retainers.

[Bluebell]

Go fast, I don't think there is a limit to the number of photos (don't actually know)
Could you post a picture of the rotator, close up. I want to see how they work.
I bought some Thompson brand rotators for my flattie rebuild, but the reconditioner told me they would do more harm than good.
These ones have the sprag clutch arrangement in them. This is the only type of rotator caps that I have ever seen. They came as standard in some Ford tractors many years back. They were probably excellent when there was lead in the petrol.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Bluebell

Go fast, I don't think there is a limit to the number of photos (don't actually know)
Could you post a picture of the rotator, close up. I want to see how they work.
I bought some Thompson brand rotators for my flattie rebuild, but the reconditioner told me they would do more harm than good.
These ones have the sprag clutch arrangement in them. This is the only type of rotator caps that I have ever seen. They came as standard in some Ford tractors many years back. They were probably excellent when there was lead in the petrol.

Hi "Blue", no problem, photo below!

On side note with respect to the (exhaust) seat-insert's and Ford using them back then I sort of doubt it was related to the fuel at all. Back in the later '60's we worked on aluminum SBC heads, they were kind of rare at that time. There were NO inserts from G.M. either on the intake valve's or the exhaust valves. The valves ran directly on the aluminum??

Fast forward just a few years ago we got in some aluminum Buick "Nailhead" castings (I never knew they even existed), absolutely no inserts in these either, they definitely had been run at some point. The story at the time, they originally belonged to "TV" Tommy Ivo, a dedicated Nailhead guy for sure. Customer didn't have the coin to bring them up to date for use today so he opted to pass them along. It's my understanding they ended up at Speedway's Bill Smith's museum?

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I hope this is a close enough shot? It's about as good as it's going to get! Shot of the Nailhead also just for kicks!

[Bluebell]

Thanks Gofast. So there is no mechanical mechanism that drives the valves to rotate?
My understanding was that when there was lead in the fuel it put a cushioning layer on the valve seat / face, that protected them from "raw" metal to metal contact.

I had a customer with a truck on full LPG. Engine was 351C, no inserts. under sustained heavy load those valves sunk quickly into the heads (0.150" lash on hyd. lifters) AS I recall, valve recession sunk those valves nearly 1/4 inch into those heads, in about 8000 miles! I was amazed! (no previous experience)
The point being that this comparison (against leaded petrol) showed just how massive a difference that lead made. Just for other folk who may not know, every modern engine has hard seats and probably better quality valves, as you probably know better than I.

[Ol' Ron]

The valve rotator rotats the valve on the way up aprox a few degrees. You can see thin by looking into the spark plug hole and putting a chalk mark on the ex valve. start the engine and watch the valve rotate.

[flatheadmurre]

The rotation can be powered by multiple things in an engine, the lifters in a flat tappet setup rotate and compressing a spring gives you a rotating movement.
So no need for a mechanical devise in the rotator to create movement just a "slipping" function to let it move.