The Ford Barn

JoeWay · 05-12-2010, 04:10 PM

Our club attended the Northern Ca Spring Opener in Ukiah recently. On the way home, one member lost a blade from his original fan. It wiped out a nearly new Brassworks radiator and put two dents in the upper right hood panel.

This fan had been wet-Magnafluxed at an aviation repair shop and certified free of cracks, yet failed within about 1400 miles of installation.

Guys and gals, take those original welded blades off unless you're about to enter judging. Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades.

Joe

P.S. According to the adjuster, his Grundy insurance will cover all the damage except for the broken fan blade itself.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-12-2010, 04:22 PM

What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

Bruce in southern OH · 05-12-2010, 04:43 PM

Several years ago, I drove my 31 Vicky to church, on way home no problem, stopped to let son get paper out of paper box, he said there was water coming out of hood loovers, drove 300 more feet to park at house, opened hood and the two blade fan had ate the radiator, got me, cost a lot to fix and never was the same fit with different radiator, get them out before someone is killed by a bad blade, Bruce

As far as look alike, I don't care, let us see one, Bruce

Clem Clement · 05-12-2010, 04:44 PM

I think the clearly all original blades should be removed and become part of your tool kit for the judges to inspect. Use a repro for goodness sake. This is a known safety issue which should stand higher the demand for originalness.
clem Clement

msmaron · 05-12-2010, 04:57 PM

[QUOTE=JoeWay;5985]Our club attended the Northern Ca Spring Opener in Ukiah recently. On the way home, one member lost a blade from his original fan. It wiped out a nearly new Brassworks radiator and put two dents in the upper right hood panel.

Guys and gals, take those original welded blades off unless you're about to enter judging. Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades.

Very good safety point.
Mark

JoeWay · 05-12-2010, 05:03 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

...How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

Depends greatly on price. The aluminum 2-blade fan is up to about $50.

I'd guess a lot of people including me would be in at $75 or so. Not so many at $100 or more.

Joe

Tacoma Bob · 05-12-2010, 05:28 PM

Yup some people never learn and insist they still have the same air that Henry put in the tires. As far as Brent's hint I for one would want to know where the steel came from to manufacture new ones.

PO51 · 05-12-2010, 05:37 PM

I would be interested

dudley32 · 05-12-2010, 05:41 PM

Me too..!

Dennis Pereira · 05-12-2010, 05:44 PM

I would within reason.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-12-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacoma Bob

As far as Brent's hint I for one would want to know where the steel came from to manufacture new ones.

Well, I'm not sure any of us know exactly where the steel we use today comes from

, ...but this person is a well known manufacturer of quality Model A parts that we all know.

Guessing "out-loud", I would expect the finished product to probably be about double that Joe, maybe even triple that. For me personally, I would probably buy 10-12 of them a year just because they would be an accurate reproduction that works correctly and looks authentic. I realize many probably won't see the value over the alum. 2 blade but on the flip side, it is truly amazing how many folks out there pay extra for Goodyear tires instead of the cheaper ones, --or pay extra for the Bill Stipe shocks or his new camshafts, or purchase the new electronic distributers and Aries mufflers and such that is of higher quality and more authentic looking.

One thing is for sure, I suspect that if there are new authentic-looking two-blade fans available, I doubt you will ever see the Stds. change.

.

Jim Parker Toronto · 05-12-2010, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

If the price and quality were good, I would be interesred!

Rich in Tucson · 05-12-2010, 06:02 PM

I would be interested in one for one car, but I also would be interested in a better made aluminum fan for other cars.

Deluxe Delivery Don · 05-12-2010, 06:05 PM

Me too! I would buy one also because the body work repairs would be alot more. $75.00 to $100.00 would then be cheap

peters180a/170b · 05-12-2010, 06:09 PM

A guy that i know has been working on this idea of a Authentic STEEL 2 -blade fan for a year now.. What is holding him up in the AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS .Everything else there is no problem. I just spoke to John and he plans making a trip to Ford Headquarters and see is there is some kind of blueprints. Brent send me a email or call and maybe your guy and my guy can hookup and share ideas and $$$$. We need only 1 person to do this in this kind of market.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-12-2010, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

A guy that i know has been working on this idea of a Authentic STEEL 2 -blade fan for a year now.. What is holding him up in the AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS .Everything else there is no problem. I just spoke to John and he plans making a trip to Ford Headquarters and see is there is some kind of blueprints. Brent send me a email or call and maybe your guy and my guy can hookup and share ideas and $$$$. We need only 1 person to do this in this kind of market.

I suspect the manufacturer I speak of is lurking and will be reading this at some point.

What has me curious is what is AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS? Using the analogy as above, Aries mufflers are not "exact" due to manufacturing costs but they are "close enough". Stipe's shocks are not "exact" because he made some slight internal modifications to improve on design and/or reduce production times. They are "close enough" to get the job done. My point is that IMO, sometimes we need to be careful while swallowing the camel that we don't choke on a gnat.

Otherwise these ideas kinda stagnate just sitting on the drawing board.

.

eswanson · 05-12-2010, 07:39 PM

I have seen a fan off a Model A and one off of a Model T (both owned by the same guy) come through the hood. If you have a safe option that is nearly original I'd say God bless ya - send me a bill

JoeWay · 05-12-2010, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Well, I'm not sure any of us know exactly where the steel we use today comes from

, ...but this person is a well known manufacturer of quality Model A parts that we all know.

Guessing "out-loud", I would expect the finished product to probably be about double that Joe, maybe even triple that. For me personally, I would probably buy 10-12 of them a year just because they would be an accurate reproduction that works correctly and looks authentic. I realize many probably won't see the value over the alum. 2 blade but on the flip side, it is truly amazing how many folks out there pay extra for Goodyear tires instead of the cheaper ones, --or pay extra for the Bill Stipe shocks or his new camshafts, or purchase the new electronic distributers and Aries mufflers and such that is of higher quality and more authentic looking.

One thing is for sure, I suspect that if there are new authentic-looking two-blade fans available, I doubt you will ever see the Stds. change.

.

Well...I have a Stipe cam and an Aries muffler, but I won't be in the market for a $250-$300 fan. I suspect the market will consist of future high-point restos, the current high-point restos that are still being shown, plus a very few other people who have to have the best. I really have no idea how many that is, but I bet you have a pretty good idea, Brent.

I agree that such a fan would cause the standards to remain status quo.

Joe

peters180a/170b · 05-12-2010, 08:25 PM

Brent , the weld spots around the hub/fan blade to hub. Having a hard time doing the same spot welds.Other then that all is good to go.

Jim Mason · 05-12-2010, 08:31 PM

[QUOTE=JoeWay;5985] Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades.

The standards do allow a 'original style metal fan' to pass prelim judging. Then it's a points deduction in final judging. They have for over a year...fwiw,jm

MBI Houston · 05-12-2010, 08:36 PM

I would be interested if it looks good and is not too expensive. Less then $100.

Tom Wesenberg · 05-12-2010, 08:43 PM

Question for Joe, what is your normal top speed? And did your fan ever have any rust pits, or make noise from rust specks inside the blade? Did you do periodic checks of the blade when the hood was open for any other reason?

I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan.

Brent, I'd like to see a good repro fan made. Yes, price would matter as far as purchase.

Steve Wastler · 05-12-2010, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

I'D be in for two steel fans

RandyinUtah · 05-12-2010, 10:04 PM

About fifteen years ago I purchased a steel reproduction fan from Bratens and it was so out of balance and untrue that I sent it back. I would be interested in purchasing if the new one check out.

MikeK · 05-12-2010, 10:29 PM

Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening.

Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat. If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect.

Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html

JoeWay · 05-12-2010, 11:21 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Question for Joe, what is your normal top speed? And did your fan ever have any rust pits, or make noise from rust specks inside the blade? Did you do periodic checks of the blade when the hood was open for any other reason?

I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan.

Brent, I'd like to see a good repro fan made. Yes, price would matter as far as purchase.

Tom, personally I'm comfortable at 55 plus on the right road. I used a later four-blade fan for the last few years until a few weeks ago when I installed one of the new Snyder aluminum fans.

The club member who lost the blade is more of a 45-50 mph type, and we had been doing that speed for many miles on a fairly rural road when the blade came off.

I can't answer the questions about rust, other than to say it was VERY rusty inside the remaining part of the fan. It was bead-blasted prior to Magnaflux and painted after. The hub and remaining blade still look as new.

Joe

TerryH · 05-13-2010, 01:44 AM

After all of the many, many warning posts listed the past couple of years, it is hard to imagine anyone still insisting on using those old steel fans. The word has been out for a long time now, but maybe the local clubs need to emphasize this to their members...........

peters180a/170b · 05-13-2010, 05:33 AM

The guy i am talking about with a "NEW STEEL" authentic fan did test one out. And yes its 10X stronger and runs at a higher rpm's. He even flew down to Texas to speak to Miller welding company about the welds.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-13-2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeK

Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening.

Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat. If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect.

Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html

Well, in all true honestly, I ain't a metalurgist

nor do I profess to know anything regarding what you say about the

cyclic work hardening so I will yield to your knowledge in that regard, however one or two thoughts do come to mind.
Since we mentioned mufflers earlier in this thread, we'll bring that analogy up again. We can buy the cheapie muffler for less than a $100, --or we can buy a steel Aries for about double the price of the cheapie. One could make an argument that both are made of steel and are 'expendible items' so why bother with paying twice as much for the Aries?

To me, the same mindset could be applied to discussions about shocks, or tires, or piston rings, or patch panels, ...or many other things. I guess it really boils down to perceived value.

I realize that $200-$300 for a fan seems like a lot of money, but in today's society of manufacturing, I don't think less than $100 will be enough to cover Design, Tooling, R&D, and all the R.O.I. Would you not agree that probably 1000 units is a realistic market for these for the life of the tooling?

Jim may have an excellent point that the aluminum unit is the best alternative in fine-point & touring class where the owner would understand going in there will be a point deduction but that the alloy fan is allowed.

.

Mike V. Florida · 05-13-2010, 07:39 AM

i just had a 4 blade one go the other dat so the problem is not just the oririnal 2 bladed ones.

As for judging, what is the price point return? Is $200.00 - $300.00 worth the money for the number of points you will receive?

Let's face it, with enough money you can have an A built with brand new materials and have it make 500 points.

Mitch//pa · 05-13-2010, 07:45 AM

mike was it the replacement bolt together 4 blade fan

SteveM · 05-13-2010, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

As for judging, what is the price point return? Is $200.00 - $300.00 worth the money for the number of points you will receive?

Depends. If it is the differences between 125 points and 130 points, probably not. If it is the difference between 495 points and 500 points, hell yes!

Even putting aside safety concerns (which are very valid!), if the judging standards don't allow safer fans, then there will be a lot fewer original radiators and hoods out there.

Steve
('31 Deluxe Coupe with not-very-original 4-blade fan)

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-13-2010, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM

Depends. If it is the differences between 125 points and 130 points, probably not. If it is the difference between 495 points and 500 points, hell yes!

Even putting aside safety concerns (which are very valid!), if the judging standards don't allow safer fans, then there will be a lot fewer original radiators and hoods out there.

Steve
('31 Deluxe Coupe with not-very-original 4-blade fan)

Steve, the Standards DO allow you to use something other than an original fan --but not without a deduction. I think the point of view on this is that if they alter the Standards to "overlook" something, then they are compromising the very reason for having Judging or saying the JS is a book by which states how Henry Ford intended each of his cars to roll out of the factory door looking like.

I think what we sometimes forget is that when we enter a vehicle in fine-point judging, not everything must be exactly like it is written in the Standards to participate. I can have many deviations as long as the 'Big 14' qualifications are met. Often times, an owner must determine exactly how much a point is worth to them financially. THAT value is different between owners!

.

Bruce · 05-13-2010, 08:32 AM

The late '31 design/replacement fan Ford offered to fix this problem 75 years ago? Not heard much feedback on that fan -- other than it is rare and expensive.

Tom from Drippin' · 05-13-2010, 08:47 AM

I don't have a dog in this hunt....I have 6 blade plastic on my cars...But, as I understand it, it's not IF an original will self destruct, it's WHEN.
Bet you can't get a radiator replaced.......hood repaired......or ckeck out of the ER.....cheaper.
Then you have to buy/find a new fan anyway.

Kurt in NJ · 05-13-2010, 08:53 AM

Was the late 31 fan made for a "fix" or was it just cheaper to manufacture?

I have been using the late fan for 35 years, I bought a NOS one at hershey -the seller told me it was no good for judging because it had the "seam" on the back (which means I bought it cheap)

I have seen the late fans with broken blades also, they seem to mostly break at the weld seam.

After looking at the quality of the reproduction alum fan I decided to take my chances with what I have.

Sparky · 05-13-2010, 09:26 AM

I have a 2-blade fan and you are making me nervous. How do you tell if it is an original fan? I'm guessing that it is not, but is there a way to check without removing it?

Tom Wesenberg · 05-13-2010, 09:42 AM

If you have a 2 blade fan and the blades are made by welding 2 stamped pieces of steel together with a rolled weld around the outer edge of the blades, then you have an original fan like I am running. A single thickness steel 2 blade would be a later replacement, or even a replacement 4 blade with 2 blades removed.

The aluminum 2 blade fans had a problem with blades not being parallel to each other, and one blade often looked like it was curved rearward. Hopefully the ones being made now are much improved. I haven't worked on one for a year or more.

JoeWay · 05-13-2010, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

...the Standards DO allow you to use something other than an original fan --but not without a deduction....
.

Jim and Brent, I think this would be a major issue to me if I were building a points car. Either you're after all the points or you're not. If you are, you need a fan that passes without deduction. From that perpective, $300 is not too much to pay for a fan that passes. Some of the points guys pay more than that for NOS parts that are less significant in judging.

I don't know if there are any other original parts that have proven conclusively to be a hazard to the car itself and (potentially) to adjacent people as well. I can't think of any. This to me indicates a strong need to make an exception for fans.

I really like Clem's idea--require an original fan, but make it a display item and allow a safe fan on the car with no deduction.

Joe

JoeWay · 05-13-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan.

Tom, at our club meeting Tuesday night Ron said he had been running original fans for 47 years and never had a problem. It always happened to the other guy.

He's ordered one Snyder fan for his coupe and another for his roadster. He also has a very early (A12xx) huckster which he is restoring for judging. I bet he replaces the fan on that one after he takes it to a meet.

Joe

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-13-2010, 10:11 AM

I wish Marco would chime in here and give his opinion.

One thing that I can say with regard to "after all the points" is this, ...plans are at this moment that there will be 5 cars in fine-point judging at French Lick this summer that have been restored at my shop. In each case, ALL of their owners have made conscience decisions where they feel they are satisfied with losing points for the sake of financial prudence. I would imagine other folks have navigated through the same 'waters' with regard to this and made like decisions. Knowing what I know about it from their perspective, all of them have different goals for which direction they went and each of those decisions have a vast amount of merit.

To me, the issue that needs to be resolved first is "why" they break. I recently heard a story about a mechanic who instructed his apprentice to repair something on a car. After a few hours, the apprentice returned to the instructor and stated "It's all fixed now!" The instructor asked the young man did you determine what caused the item to break? The apprentice shook his head and said No. At that point, the instructor explain to the apprentice, then you really didn't fix the problem did you. THAT is kinda my attitude. Making a new fan that looks authentic is awesome but if there is still concern about the new one breaking too, then maybe they problem has not been determined & solved.

MikeK · 05-13-2010, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Well, in all true honestly, I ain't a metalurgist

nor do I profess to know anything regarding what you say about the

cyclic work hardening so I will yield to your knowledge in that regard, however one or two thoughts do come to mind.
Since we mentioned mufflers earlier in this thread, we'll bring that analogy up again. We can buy the cheapie muffler for less than a $100, --or we can buy a steel Aries for about double the price of the cheapie. One could make an argument that both are made of steel and are 'expendible items' so why bother with paying twice as much for the Aries?

To me, the same mindset could be applied to discussions about shocks, or tires, or piston rings, or patch panels, ...or many other things. I guess it really boils down to perceived value.

I realize that $200-$300 for a fan seems like a lot of money, but in today's society of manufacturing, I don't think less than $100 will be enough to cover Design, Tooling, R&D, and all the R.O.I. Would you not agree that probably 1000 units is a realistic market for these for the life of the tooling?

.

Yes Brent, perceived value. I have no issue no mater what the new fan costs- $1 or $1,000. I simply won't use it at any price point because it doesn't provide the one thing that would be a plus for me- increased reliability vs. a stock fan.

To me, in a fine point car an original fan is 100% reliable and I would see no benefit from any replacement fan. Why? Realistically, a car in fine-point is a low hour, slow speed car and will not see accumulated hours of fast highway touring. Has anybody ever had an excellent original fan break in fine point during judging or on the mandatory tour? Despite all the broken fan horror stories, there are still plenty of excellent originals, I have a few of both the early and late design. Sure, a pitted, cracked, welded, ground, bondo filled fan painted to look new is a bomb, but does anybody laying out the bucks for fine-point really do that? Then maybe the new fan fits their perception of value.

If you do intend to regularly tour with a car, then I see either an excellent original or the new steel fan as equally suspect in long term reliability, and both unacceptable to me. Same basic design and materials = same failure mode. For touring you need a different fan, IMHO.

Perceived value. To my eye, those lousy aluminum repops stick out like a sore thumb with their thick edges, and are not the answer either, at any price point. One can spot it a mile away. It REALLY gets me when I see one of those aluminum trying-to-fool-you fans, and then follow the fan belt around to an alternator!

Whats the point? In my mind, you get more respect just running a plastic fan rather than trying to fool almost nobody with the aluminum propeller. If you replace the original fan for increased reliability, I just don't see a new steel propeller fan as any better for someone who will do a lot of driving.

Cyclic work hardening

- C'mon Brent, you do know what that is. Flex a fender at the bead a gazillion times on bumpy roads and it cracks. Or flex a fan blade by varying the load on it every time engine speed changes. Eventually, Crack!

Terry, NJ · 05-13-2010, 10:19 AM

I've never been clear on this. My Town sedan has a four blade steel fan. Is it OK?
Regards, Terry

Mitch//pa · 05-13-2010, 10:22 AM

how are the aftermarket 4 blade bolt together fans as far as reliability

Richard/Ca · 05-13-2010, 10:29 AM

I would buy one if the price was right. I just like the looks of a two blade fan. Even though I also had one come apart on me.Luckly it just put a hole in the hood.

MikeK · 05-13-2010, 10:46 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

The guy i am talking about with a "NEW STEEL" authentic fan did test one out. And yes its 10X stronger and runs at a higher rpm's. He even flew down to Texas to speak to Miller welding company about the welds.

"And yes its 10X stronger..." Great! Show me the independent engineering test reports that prove a sampling of several of the new fans are 10x stronger than an equal sampling of NOS fans. An unsubstantiated claim like that is a BIG RED FLAG to avoid this product. Because some experts say so is meaningless.

"...did test one out" ONE??? Statistically, a sampling of n=1 is invalid. Tested for how many thousand running hours, and at what varing speeds approximating engine speed and temperature cycles? The fact that it can do a very high sustained speed imposes no cyclic loading, no matter how many hours you run it. Useless data to me.

JoeWay · 05-13-2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeK

...Despite all the broken fan horror stories, there are still plenty of excellent originals...

Mike, how do you propose the restorer identify an "excellent original" fan?

The guy whose fan started this thread has been restoring Model As, and collecting parts, for over 45 years. He is very selective and conservative. I have seen him cut defective parts in two, or otherwise render them unusable, to make sure they would never end up in use on a car.

He picked an apparently good fan. He cleaned it to bare metal, found no visible flaws, then had it wet-Magnafluxed by a qualified shop. It was certified crack-free...yet it failed in about 1400 miles of medium-speed touring. No pits, no cracks, no welds, no grinding, no bondo--yet it failed.

What else should he have done? What else would you do? My feeling is that one CANNOT be positive that an original welded fan is good. They are all subject to catastrophic failure at a moment's notice. Failure is certainly more likely on a motor that is operated at higher rpm, but can happen at any time on any motor.

Joe

MikeK · 05-13-2010, 12:38 PM

Joe, I agree with you 100%. There is nothing you can do beyond inspection that shows a part to be sound, either used or new.

Mean time between failure is just an average on any part. It applied to the original fans, and it applies to replacements. I'm not convinced that a brand new one will fare any better. The first new one could last a hundred years and a million miles, the second new one a year and 1000 miles. Both may have x-rayed perfect. MTBF would then be 50 years and 500,500 miles. That doesn't help the guy who bought the second one. If it is identical to the original part, it will have an identical failure profile.

It took Henry 3 years on the first design to realize there was a problem, if that's what the new fan is like there will be some % of failures fairly soon. After 4 years, Ford gave up on the design, including the later '31 fan design. B's had no welds.

Would I buy one, even if they are $300? Yea, before I'd buy a $50 aluminum one, if convenience was the issue and I didn't want a visible replacement. I may buy one anyway, just because it will fit into my repop collection.

skip · 05-13-2010, 12:49 PM

OK where do I sign up for a stamped steel fan?
Too good to be true. We should have some confidence that a new stamped steel fan is 'a stout fellow'. How about a test till failure? Spin it till it don't come home.

Oh reminds me the space shuttle. A turbine bladed fuel pump needed a scatter shield around it 'just in case'. So the engineers spun her up with a blanket around it till it came apart. Not only did it go through the blanket, the lab, the wall but out into the parking lot.
The turbine flys tomarrow with no blanket around it. An acceptable risk since the pump runs far below failure data.

skip.

skip · 05-13-2010, 01:07 PM

Hartzell Fan inc Piqua Ohio. Hummmmm
They make aeroplane propellers and industrial fans.
They have the engineering.
And test lab
And know how
They just need to assess the need
That would be all of us
Can they make a buck on it

skip.

Midwest Tin · 05-13-2010, 01:32 PM

Hi, What are your thoughts on the Late 31 fan blade. Has anyone had any trouble with running a late 31 fan blade? Jim

skip · 05-13-2010, 01:59 PM

"blade tip speed is slower and out of the harmonics area"
Brent may have something here.
Let me preface my remarks...I have no knowledge as to why the cast [not stamped?] two blade fans fracture at the hub.
Bare in mind the the fan and water pump impeller spin 1-1/2 times the engine rpm.
The engine is good for 2600 rpm so the fan spins 3900 rpm at times.
Good point blades don't fracture at the tip. I doubt if it's harmonics but more like stress.

What causes stress? I can't hear anything 'whining', snapping like a bull whip [that's hyper sonic compression of air], or whomping air like a propeller and no thumping. Hummmmm says the boy.
~Vibration? Out of balance and shaking. Should feel the vibes by touching the water pump shaft. Or listening to the whirl with a long handled screwdriver to the ear.

~Bending? More like...

~Flexing toward radiator while pulling air? Straightening out when slowed. Back and forth till she breaks. So rpm's climbing and backing back down kill engines...why not fans? Could cause the root of the blade to flex and start to fracture.
You know...I wonder what a guy could see with a variable flash zeon strobe light.
Freeze the moving blade.
Might be able to detect flex.
The fan works hard at moving air.
Resistance through air squares as speed doubles.
Your hand out the window at 25 mph vs at 60 mph. Speed flips the hand right up.

Air has weight. 1.087 lb per one cubic foot at 70 deg F. Less weight when hot, but the same one cubic foot volume.
One cubic foot is two cubic foot at 600 deg F. But weighs the same as one cubic foot at 70 deg F. [standard air]
Engine hp used to turn the fan moving hot air decreases.
If the fan was driven by an electric motor the cold start motor amp would drop as the air through the fan heated. New York Blower manual on the four standard Fan laws explain this.
I think I read that the fan moves 220 cubic foot a minute at X? rpm.
That's about 240 lb of air a minute.
If anyone wants to play with the 'draft-through-the-radiator' divide the 220 cuft by the sq foot opening of the radiator. Just for poops and grins. That air heated to about 160 deg F gives the approximate btu cooling so 220 cfm x 1.087 weight of air x [160 deg F -70 deg F air; rise in deg F] = 21,522 btu per hour. [btu's are always in hours] Fun?

~Pulling like centrifugal forces. I don't see it. The blade will fling but that's after it fractures. That's the result. Not the cause.

~After 80 years, I think the hub/blade root just get worn out. The problem is the new replacement fans are sometimes of bad metallurgy, materials/process, and craftsmanship.

~I have heard that a cast fan that has been cleaned and vapor blasted with glass beads then degassed at a high temperature, then cooled and powder coated gloss black and cured at a lower temperature will show the crack developing. HIGH GLOSS thermo-set epoxy polyester cured powder paint is brittle and will show cracks if the blade flex's at the hub. An early warning? I don't know. Speed kills. A four blade fan doesn't move more air 'cause the blades have less pitch I hear but they make noise as Bruce says. Weigh more too.

When I wash my BMW 320iS and it's ideling away, the electric cooling fan kick's on and the car moves foward about 1/3 of an inch. Is that cool or what?

That's my 2 cents.

skip.

JoeWay · 05-13-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip;6769...[COLOR=blue

why the cast [not stamped?] two blade fans fracture at the hub...[/COLOR]

Skip, just so we're clear, the fans in question are weldments made up of several steel stampings. No castings involved.

Most or all of your points likely apply to the situation.

Joe

Marco Tahtaras · 05-13-2010, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midwest Tin

Hi, What are your thoughts on the Late 31 fan blade. Has anyone had any trouble with running a late 31 fan blade? Jim

This type of fan was simply an alternate design (supplied by Holley I believe). It was used concurrently with the Ford design and was not chronological replacement.

I haven't studied that later fan closely but it appears to be essentially the same design in the hub area. The biggest advantage to the Holley design is there is no place for internal corrosion in the main blade area as it's a single thickness. This DOES provide one major benefit. The Ford design fans typically (probably 95%+) have substantial internal corrosion between the layers. If you look closely at one you will see the outer 2-3" of one or both blades bulged and distorted. This causes imbalance among other problems.

That single issue seems to provide the later type fan with a significantly reduced failure rate. However some still fail. The other issue that contributes to failure is bent/distorted fan blades. This is NOT obvious with a purely visible inspection. The problem with these unique looking propeller fans is that the neatly shaped fan blade make a very comfortable HANDLE! Over the years (or decades) most fans have been used to turn (or attempt to turn) the engine over when trying to zero in on the timing mark with the pin. I can't believe the number of times I've seen this done! How much can these fan blades take before the blades become distorted? Of course it will not occur with the two blades evenly. Besides the undesired stress placed on the blades at the hub, this creates a functional imbalance between the blades. Yep, MORE problems!

All these problems can be identified with proper inspections but I only know of 3-4 people that have ever done so. A decent machinist will measure crankshaft journals to see if they are round and/or tapered, or measure ring gaps before assembly. However they will likely look over a fan closely, say "gee, that looks good" and assume it is! Magnafluxing wont mean a thing except to tell you if you need to have your eyeglass prescription updated!

One thing I find very interesting is the number of folks that claim "there was no crack there this morning but but the blade just went!" I've seen MANY (abused) fans on swap meet tables over the years with a crack measuring 1/8"-1/4" long. Funny, the fan blade is still attached. How can that be if they fly right off when the crack begins? Hmmm, I'll have to figure that one out.

With all that said I won't recommend anyone else run an original fan. I don't want to be called to task for the decisions of others and the resulting success or failure. It also won't hurt my feelings to have more fans to choose from on the swap meet tables!

As a final note, I had a friend that I helped complete the restoration on his '30 Deluxe Roadster in 1975. He put the original fan back on the car at that time. Before he died he had put about 90k miles on top of the 70k miles already on the car. Yep, about 160k miles on the fan! He drove the car across the USA as well as many "short" trips of 1500+/- miles each way and he DID NOT have an overdrive! Yes, I'm sure that fan will eventually fail but when? 200k miles? 250k? I have no idea.

Deluxe Delivery Don · 05-13-2010, 04:49 PM

i need to purchase a fan in the few weeks so what would any of you guys buy that is on the market right now? It is an all stock sept 30 deluxe delivery. I don't want to have any of the same problems as of the above post . Thanks for any help.

Tom Wesenberg · 05-13-2010, 07:41 PM

I would buy any GOOD original fan. I have a few for my own cars. I check the pitch, check the plane they run in, and check to be sure the leading edge of each blade is parallel to each other. When this criteria is met, then I balance the fan and use it on my car. I feel safe with it, but still check it for cracks when I think of it.

I think the 2 blade aluminum is a good second choice if I can buy it in person to be sure the leading edge of the blades is parallel. If I could buy one with good parallel blades I would then refinish it to the smoothness it should have, then I'd make sure the tapper was correct to fit the shaft snuggly, then I'd balance it and use it. I know the aluminum fans are advertised to be balanced, but I haven't found any to be as close as I like them to be balanced.

Mikeinnj · 05-13-2010, 08:07 PM

Let me understand this.....the original Model A Ford fans are known for cracking and turning into shrapnel and now someone want's to duplicate, manufacture and sell the same fan ??? How would the pricy new repro fan not end up cracking and failing like the original ones did ?

JoeWay · 05-13-2010, 08:46 PM

I don't think either (any?) of the potential manufacturers plan to duplicate the original fan.

They plan to make a fan that is visually identical. That leaves lots of room for modern technology and materials.

Joe

JoeWay · 05-13-2010, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

...Magnafluxing wont mean a thing except to tell you if you need to have your eyeglass prescription updated!

...As a final note, I had a friend that I helped complete the restoration on his '30 Deluxe Roadster in 1975. He put the original fan back on the car at that time. Before he died he had put about 90k miles on top of the 70k miles already on the car.

I usually hang on your every word, Marco, but I don't understand your eyeglass prescription analogy--nor your apparent disdain for Magnaflux, which is a proven method of detecting cracks that are otherwise invisible.

And as MikeK mentions above, a sample size of one is worthless. I would add that anecdotal evidence is also pretty much without value. I'm not willing to put my radiator, my hood, and perhap even my physical well-being on the line on the off chance that I might have a fan that won't break.

These fans are a proven hazard. I've destroyed two that already had cracks, and given away one that had been carefully and thoroughly cleaned, inspected and Magnafluxed. If I still had any, you'd be welcome to them. In fact, I can probably get that one back if you want it. I'll pay shipping.

Joe

Mike V. Florida · 05-13-2010, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

mike was it the replacement bolt together 4 blade fan

Yes, It was on the car since the '80's. Many thousands of miles but the problem was still mine. I failed to check the fan for a few months and it bit me in the butt. I could see the old break and the new.

Marco Tahtaras · 05-13-2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

I usually hang on your every word, Marco, but I don't understand your eyeglass prescription analogy--nor your apparent disdain for Magnaflux, which is a proven method of detecting cracks that are otherwise invisible.

Magnaflux has it's place for sure. I just don't see the advantage with clean, smooth sheetmetal. Maybe I'm missing something here?

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone else run one. I was however trying to explain that it's not just basic use over 80 years that makes one prone to failure, but other factors that are generally identifiable but nearly always overlooked. True, one example only proves the potential of an original fan in equal condition. The trick or art is identifying that condition.

BTW, I spin mine MUCH faster than most. I do monitor it for surprises but don't really expect any.

Bill Goddard · 05-14-2010, 05:43 AM

OK. Time for my 2 cents - maybe 1 cent. What would the group think of a life limit on fan blades. Maybe 5000 miles. Helicopter rotors are limited by max no. of hours because of the alternating flex problem. I would think you could get 5000 miles on a NEWLY manufactured fan.
Also - if the new sheet metal fans are formed at the base with a shearing burr on the outside radius of the curve there is a real possibility of a crack developing along that edge. I would check a new blade for this burr and file and polish the edge real smooth if I found one.

MikeK · 05-14-2010, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

OK. Time for my 2 cents - maybe 1 cent. What would the group think of a life limit on fan blades. Maybe 5000 miles. Helicopter rotors are limited by max no. of hours because of the alternating flex problem. I would think you could get 5000 miles on a NEWLY manufactured fan.
Also - if the new sheet metal fans are formed at the base with a shearing burr on the outside radius of the curve there is a real possibility of a crack developing along that edge. I would check a new blade for this burr and file and polish the edge real smooth if I found one.

Bill,
You want Model A guys to throw something away that ain't broke yet?

They won't replace 30 year old tires 'till they blow, you want them to throw away a $200-$300 fan! By the way, I agree with you!

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-15-2010, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikek

bill,
you want model a guys to throw something away that ain't broke yet?

they won't replace 30 year old tires 'till they blow, you want them to throw away a $200-$300 fan! by the way, i agree with you!

classic!!!

RockHillWill · 05-15-2010, 07:13 AM

Just adding a thought or twwo on this subject. I hang around some of the fine point crowd for the knowledge and most importantly I have an appreciation for the preservation of history. My limited knowledge leaves me with the impression that Henry Ford was a leader in the industrial evalution (sp?) that lead to the greatness of this country, and I like the fact that the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards does the most nice job of revealing the details of that history. I further believe that these standards should not be 'stepped downwards' to make it easier for compliance. I used to argue this point somewhat with Marco, but his steadfast adhesion to this approach has made me a believer in 'right is right'. I used to hang around some of the race car folks, and on any given Sunday if you were able to make the race you could take pride in your accomplishments. If you missed the race you went home and worked harder, you did not petition NASCAR to 'dumb down the rules' so you could be more competetive. So much for my soapbox perspective regarding rules changes. I had a friend that has since passed away that was able to restore the original fans in a manner that seemed to be quite well done. He would never share how he did it, but was adament about removing the rust from inside the fan. I was able to use a ball micrometer and check the fan in any area and it would be a very consistant measurement. I am familiar with magnafluxing, but he made me understand that it only checks cracks that are on the outside of the fan, not those on the inside. If I understood him correctly he was hinting that whatever made the rust form on the inside was not visable from the outside and that centrifigal force would move the rust on the inside, outward and impact the balance, and depending on the final resting place of the rust accumulation, it would determine how the blade was twisted and the resulting crack to appear. He was some how able to remove that rust on the inside(???????), balance the fan, and have it provide a long lasting life. He had a Tudor that have 42,000 + touring miles and his close friend has a Phaeton that has more than 46,000 miles and it is still used on touring. Again, just an old mans thoughts!

Michael P. · 05-15-2010, 07:34 AM

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To the fellows that asked about the 4 blade repro fans. When I restored my '31 Slant Windshield 4 Door Sedan (160-A) 23 years ago I was concerned about the reports of the 2 bladed originals comming apart so at the time opted to buy a 4 bladed repro. Being a bit paranoid I took the new 4 bladed fan and spot welded over the rivits and also ran a small smooth bead at every seam where the blades overlapped. I then ground the longer welds smooth, ground the welds at the rivits a smooth domed shape and painted where one cannot even see the welds. I am an amatuer home welder and do not have technical engineering training but the fan has worked well for the past 23 years as I assume a "single" unit due to the welding. Maybe someone with better technical know how will chime in to let us know whether the welding on my part is really ok to do or pure overkill!

MikeK · 05-15-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael P.

To the fellows that asked about the 4 blade repro fans. When I restored my '31 Slant Windshield 4 Door Sedan (160-A) 23 years ago I was concerned about the reports of the 2 bladed originals comming apart so at the time opted to buy a 4 bladed repro. Being a bit paranoid I took the new 4 bladed fan and spot welded over the rivits and also ran a small smooth bead at every seam where the blades overlapped. I then ground the longer welds smooth, ground the welds at the rivits a smooth domed shape and painted where one cannot even see the welds. I am an amatuer home welder and do not have technical engineering training but the fan has worked well for the past 23 years as I assume a "single" unit due to the welding. Maybe someone with better technical know how will chime in to let us know whether the welding on my part is really ok to do or pure overkill!

What you did is neither "ok to do or pure overkill!" You now have a DANGEROUS fan.
Welding the four overlap joints of the two blades- two in front, two in the back, has made the fan far more prone to sudden blade loss than the riveted construction. You have now concentrated the flexing directly across your weld beads. The grain structure in the steel sheet metal the blades are made from is refined, compressed, and stretched directionally during the rolling process, essentially a type of forging. Your weld bead destroyed that. It annealed the metal and left a soft line with much less spring than the rest of the blade.

The fact that you now have 23 years accumulated stress from flexion on that fan makes it a real time bomb.

Bill O'Brien · 08-11-2010, 04:26 AM

Question: Which fan EACTLY does this discussion pertain to? I have an original 2 blade aluminum one piece fan on my 28 A. It seems that this discussion regards a stamped fan with rivets.. ??

Thanks gents...

Blessyouboys · 08-11-2010, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Brien

Question: Which fan EACTLY does this discussion pertain to? I have an original 2 blade aluminum one piece fan on my 28 A. It seems that this discussion regards a stamped fan with rivets.. ??

Thanks gents...

The original fans were not aluminum, they were steel. They are prone to cracking near the hub, rusting internally and failing with often disastrous results.

Don/WI · 08-11-2010, 07:25 AM

I would be interested for $100.00 or close to that. Anything more I would take my chances with an aluminum 2-blade. Don/Wi

hardtimes · 08-12-2010, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeK

Yes Brent, perceived value. I have no issue no mater what the new fan costs- $1 or $1,000. I simply won't use it at any price point because it doesn't provide the one thing that would be a plus for me- increased reliability vs. a stock fan.

To me, in a fine point car an original fan is 100% reliable and I would see no benefit from any replacement fan. Why? Realistically, a car in fine-point is a low hour, slow speed car and will not see accumulated hours of fast highway touring. Has anybody ever had an excellent original fan break in fine point during judging or on the mandatory tour? Despite all the broken fan horror stories, there are still plenty of excellent originals, I have a few of both the early and late design. Sure, a pitted, cracked, welded, ground, bondo filled fan painted to look new is a bomb, but does anybody laying out the bucks for fine-point really do that? Then maybe the new fan fits their perception of value.

If you do intend to regularly tour with a car, then I see either an excellent original or the new steel fan as equally suspect in long term reliability, and both unacceptable to me. Same basic design and materials = same failure mode. For touring you need a different fan, IMHO.

Perceived value. To my eye, those lousy aluminum repops stick out like a sore thumb with their thick edges, and are not the answer either, at any price point. One can spot it a mile away. It REALLY gets me when I see one of those aluminum trying-to-fool-you fans, and then follow the fan belt around to an alternator!

Whats the point? In my mind, you get more respect just running a plastic fan rather than trying to fool almost nobody with the aluminum propeller. If you replace the original fan for increased reliability, I just don't see a new steel propeller fan as any better for someone who will do a lot of driving.

Cyclic work hardening

- C'mon Brent, you do know what that is. Flex a fender at the bead a gazillion times on bumpy roads and it cracks. Or flex a fan blade by varying the load on it every time engine speed changes. Eventually, Crack!

MikeK,
Once again ...thanks for sharing your knowledgable perspective to this thread! 'CYCLIC WORK HARDENING' ..just how hard is that to understand to help put a stop to the general use of this poorly designed fan! I'm with you on buying the titanium bladed fan, but not a redue of a failed design!

5window · 08-12-2010, 07:18 AM

Since some Model A's have been running since they were made and many, many were in operation during WWII when they were 15 years old, I would be very interested as to whether there were historically fan failures reported when the A was new, or whether this is a problem with an 80 year old part. And while we're at it, do Chevrolet,Dodge and other fans from that era have similar problems today?

I don't have a fine points car, but I'd be a big "fan" of the "one for show and one for go" crowd. I really like my current radiator and hood top.

FL&WVMIKE · 08-12-2010, 10:39 AM

If he is taking a poll to see how many people would be interested in buying one, he could put me down for one, if it is in the $100.00 range. If he had to price it in the $300.00 range, only the most fanatic of the fanatics would be buying it, in my opinion. At $100.00, I think that most drivers would invest in a NEW fan blade.
I had one break once, but luckily, no damage. It went downward. Then, since I was only about two miles from home, I tried to limp home, slowly, with one blade. I had a long hill to climb, and since I was driving slowly, I had to down shift into higher RPMs. The whole car shook and the water pump disentigrated. Next time, I will break off the other blade or remove the belt. Live and learn !
MIKE

1928Pickuppain · 08-12-2010, 11:47 AM

Mines origonal to the car i have never actualy taken a good look at my fan. From what im hearing is that the fan is comprised of two blades welded to the hub?
If it were once peace stamped steal of medum dencity rivited to the a central hub made to look origonal (i see no reason that it would ever fail) all welds are prone to failure from fatigue ( I take it the weld is were these blades are failing?) I would never put a cast fan blade in my car the process of casting creates an extreamly brittle meatal that is porus, unbalenced with tones of microscopic cracks and air holes. thats why air plane props are mechiend not cast.

ursus · 08-12-2010, 12:02 PM

A repop stamped steel two-blade fan was briefly available from some vendors back in the mid 80's. I know because I have one that I bought back then and paid the princely sum of $47 for it because it was such a good replica of the original. Maybe somebody knows about these?

I never got around to installing it, lost it during a move, and wasn't able to buy a replacement. The vendor told me that the person making the fans had ceased production and was otherwise unreachable. I found the fan in some moving boxes about 20 years later and still have it but have yet to install it because I'm happy with my aluminum fan and not into fine-point judging.

So, please note that the repop two-blade fan has been done already but I don't know why it had such a short production run. From what I now know about the original, the big question is whether or not anybody has found a way to mitigate the potential faults of Henry's original.

A400 Guy · 08-12-2010, 12:12 PM

I would buy an authentic fan reproduction in a heartbeat.

JD Miller · 08-12-2010, 01:28 PM

For waht it's worth, probably not much, the original two blade fan was prone to failure within just a few short years after production.

Our local Ford dealer carried two blade and four blade replacement fans back in the fifties. They probably had them even before then. I was just too young to realize it.

Coming from a family of mechanics, grandfather and father, I'm very familiar with the two bladed fans that failed during the late fifties and sixties. These were fans that had not set out in the weather rusting on some abandoned engine. These were fans on rather low mileage cars that had been maintained

The two blade fan was a faulty design. It's a wonder that they have survived all these years and are still being used. My grandfather did not trust the two bladed fan, no matter how good it looked and free from any cracks. Whenever he could convince a customer the fan was changed to a four bladed, riveted fan.

We had a case of a recently overhauled Model A engine on a combine. It was parked next to the shop and was being "run in" after the rebuild. The engine was running at a fast idle. All of a sudden there was a loud noise as one of the blades broke free and drove itself into the side of the building.

When we toured with our Model A's back in the late fifties just about everyone that had a two bladed fan carried and extra. It was not uncommon to have one or two fan blade failures each year. Worst one was on the Pennsy Turnpike on the way to Bedford, PA, from NW Ohio. A very nice, low mileage 29 station wagon tossed a blade going through one of the tunnels. It destroyed the radiator and one blade ended up sticking out the passenger side of the hood.

So, Model A fan blade failure is not something new. These failures go back to a period prior to WWII. The longer these baldes were run the more failures happened. Two blade originals are just great on a fine point car, but you are looking for trouble running one of these "time bombs" on a car used for daily driving and touring.

Good luck!

Chris in WNC · 08-21-2010, 02:38 PM

I would definitely spring for this new steel fan for our unrestored Coupe.

our Town Sedan is a 20-yr old but still very nice driver-quality restoration.
the aluminum fan is good enough for it.

28RPU · 08-21-2010, 03:48 PM

I am new to stock Model A's and this information is also new to me. I never would have thought that a fan blade that survived 80 years on a car was designed defective. Now that I have read all of the posts and see that this has been an ongoing problem for most of the Model A's lifespan I guess I need to preempt the problem and change the blade. I do not have a show car so 100 bucks is out of my price range on a new fan blade so I guess I will opt for just a standard replacement.So the aluminum replacements are ok for just a driver then?

Terry, NJ · 08-21-2010, 07:17 PM

As a former welder, I agree with Mike K. You have a bomb! I would get that thing off the engine tonight and have it magnafluxed tomorrow. Mike explained it better than I can, but there is such a thing as the HAZ. The Heat Affected Zone and it's always right next to the weld. This is where most welds fail. It weakenes the parent metal (In this case, the fanblade)
This is where failure would occur. On second thought, throw that fan away! One day a tiny crack will begin in the HAZ. Later, you'll rev the engine and centrifugal force will take over and Bang. it will be all over but the crying!
Terry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael P.

To the fellows that asked about the 4 blade repro fans. When I restored my '31 Slant Windshield 4 Door Sedan (160-A) 23 years ago I was concerned about the reports of the 2 bladed originals comming apart so at the time opted to buy a 4 bladed repro. Being a bit paranoid I took the new 4 bladed fan and spot welded over the rivits and also ran a small smooth bead at every seam where the blades overlapped. I then ground the longer welds smooth, ground the welds at the rivits a smooth domed shape and painted where one cannot even see the welds. I am an amatuer home welder and do not have technical engineering training but the fan has worked well for the past 23 years as I assume a "single" unit due to the welding. Maybe someone with better technical know how will chime in to let us know whether the welding on my part is really ok to do or pure overkill!

Terry, NJ · 08-21-2010, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

OK. Time for my 2 cents - maybe 1 cent. What would the group think of a life limit on fan blades. Maybe 5000 miles. Helicopter rotors are limited by max no. of hours because of the alternating flex problem. I would think you could get 5000 miles on a NEWLY manufactured fan.
Also - if the new sheet metal fans are formed at the base with a shearing burr on the outside radius of the curve there is a real possibility of a crack developing along that edge. I would check a new blade for this burr and file and polish the edge real smooth if I found one.

Bill, I think you're trying to solve a perpetual problem by applying the most draconian answer. Actually, the mod A is the first car I have ever heard of exploding fans on. All my cars and trucks are run to well over 100K miles and I have never had a fan let go. Why are mod As the only cars affected? I should think that the four blade steel replacements should solve this problem, if not, why? My own theory is that Ford made the pitch angles too steep and this cause too much flexing at the higher speeds. This would cause the metal to crystalise and fail. I'm very new to this so maybe I'm talking thru my arse. Let's just convert to stamped steel 4 blade and move on.
Terry

CT Jack · 08-21-2010, 09:18 PM

What is the point of making a steel reproduction 2 bladed fan requiring welding the blade to the hub? As we all know welding is the primary cause for the original fan to fail. Fact; welding produces small cracks no matter how careful or controlled the process is. The blades on the 2 bladed fan in our engines encounter many millions of cycles of bending loads during normal operation. The most vulnerable place for a failure to occur on a component of this type operating in this mode is at a welded joint. Over time the small cracks (micro cracks) within the weld zone begin to grow as the number of operating cycles continue to increase. Once the cracks reach a certain size and number the welded connection significantly weakens or fatigues to the point where it completely fails causing the blade to break away.
A good quality cast Al 2 bladed fan made in the good old USA is probably the best way to go.
Jack

Mike V. Florida · 08-21-2010, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Let's just convert to stamped steel 4 blade and move on.
Terry

My stamped four blade fan let go a few months ago; dented hood, wiped out the radiator, and destroyed the water pump.

29RPU · 08-22-2010, 12:48 AM

Just a guess, but I'd bet one blade hung on or it was unbalanced and jacked the bushing/shaft.

windy-au · 08-22-2010, 03:18 AM

A big thankyou to all on this post , as I found 2 cracks in my 2 blade fan when I replaced the radiator today , I have replaced it with a 4 blade fan that I had .
Allan.

Terry, NJ · 08-22-2010, 06:03 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

My stamped four blade fan let go a few months ago; dented hood, wiped out the radiator, and destroyed the water pump.

Why is this? I mean like this is Freakin mysterious! Why do I have cars and trucks that go well over the total mileage of a mod A and I have never had one let go yet. What's so special about a mod A that it is the only car/engine that manages to eat up fans? Why are mod As fan killers?
Terry

Mike V. Florida · 08-22-2010, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever4

Just wondering how did the fan destroy the water pump?

It went at about 50 mph the fan was so out of balance that the casting shattered away bending the shaft.

Bill Goddard · 08-22-2010, 06:17 PM

I have never been interested in cars except the model A but I think the fan is more likely to fail because the pulley is not directly supported by a shaft but is cantilevered behind the forward bearing. There is alternate flexing as the fan pulley rotates. I don't know if ANY other cars have this condition. We need a whole new design and we need it now!

Tom Wesenberg · 08-23-2010, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

I have never been interested in cars except the model A but I think the fan is more likely to fail because the pulley is not directly supported by a shaft but is cantilevered behind the forward bearing. There is alternate flexing as the fan pulley rotates. I don't know if ANY other cars have this condition. We need a whole new design and we need it now!

Don't run with the fan belt tight. I have about an inch and a half of flex between the generator and fan pulley's.

Glen in Hillman MI · 08-23-2010, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Goddard

I have never been interested in cars except the model A but I think the fan is more likely to fail because the pulley is not directly supported by a shaft but is cantilevered behind the forward bearing. There is alternate flexing as the fan pulley rotates. I don't know if ANY other cars have this condition. We need a whole new design and we need it now!

Ford had fan blade trouble well into the 60's. I was in fleet service for over 25 years and replace many ford 4 blade fans.

Terry, NJ · 08-23-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen in Hillman MI

Ford had fan blade trouble well into the 60's. I was in fleet service for over 25 years and replace many ford 4 blade fans.

Glenn, With all due respect, I was never a fleet manager and I'm sure you saw more cars a month than I saw in a couple of years. However, that being said, I have been on the road since 1961 (49 years) and I have never heard of this problem with Ford or anyone else. My parents owned all Fords. My father in law owned a small moving company and it was mainly Whites and Internationals. His personal car was a 36 Ford that he used till 1955. My car history began with a 1949 Tudor that I bought for $20, since that "bomb" I had 1 '50- and 3 '51s Then a 54 with a 57 T-bird 312, a 59 Edsel, a 64 Galaxy a 47 merc, and a whole bunch of other stuff.
I spent quite a bit of time around cars in general and I have never heard that anyones's, fans were failing. Not GMs, or Chrysler, nor Ford, or Studebaker, or Packard, or Kaiser, or Nash - Rambler, Crosley, Willys nor International either on it's trucks or tractors, ditto for John Deere, ferguson, Case. This is something you just don't hear about. Since I got into Mod A s, I've heard about it a lot. What is the diference between a 235, 283 chevy, or a 239, 272, 292, 312, 260, and a mod A? Well those engines can rev a lot higher and I never had one let go, maybe some of the cars you were in charge of , the fans let go, but I never even heard of it. Beyond that? It would seem to be in the Mod A's favor, but it isn't. Someone suggested high speed photography to see just what is going on here. Maybe that's the next step. It will take some serious investigation to figure this out. Theories are just unproven opinions.
Terry

Bill Goddard · 08-23-2010, 06:47 PM

Could it be done with a timing light. Put a dot in a special place and see if it wonders from flexing. Maybe a dot at tip of each blade to start.

PetesPonies · 05-03-2012, 11:12 PM

It's been explained well in this thread . . but the facts are right before you or the fan. Why are most fan blades riveted? Now if you want to increase the manufacturing process . . proper heat treating could be made to a welded fan . . but for production part that isn't considered viable.

james.heider · 05-04-2012, 03:47 AM

If someone is going to make a new steel fan, Count me in as purchasing one.
Put me down on the order list.

Thanks Brent

james.heider · 05-04-2012, 03:49 AM

Brent,

You can put me down for 1 new fan if they go into production.

Jim Heider
Auburndale, Florida

joncrane · 05-04-2012, 04:02 AM

I have always heard that the two blade fan was stressed when someone attempted to turn the motor a "little bit" when timing with the pin. It was always so convenient to do this, but it stressed the two piece fan. So long as the mechanic used the crank to time the engine, the fan blade lasted.
Just what I heard. Never experienced a failed fan...knock on wood.

ericr · 05-04-2012, 09:29 AM

I would buy one, that is an item that is long-overdue for quality reproduction, right up there with headlight sockets and lighting switches.

RonC · 05-04-2012, 10:10 AM

Does anyone know what the status is with the reproduction steel fan?

Logan · 05-04-2012, 10:18 AM

i know a guy who was listening to a model a motor run under the hood. He took his head out from the engine compartment, then bam.... The two blade fan blade broke off. If he had stayed under the hood for 3 seconds longer, he probably wouldnt be alive.

Earle · 05-04-2012, 11:01 AM

I would be very interested - up to the $150 - $175 range.

BUT...I'm also aware of some of the technical issues behind the failure history of the original fan design. In simple terms, it's due to high centrifugal forces causing a stress concentration at the juncture of the blade with the hub. From there on fatigue takes its toll as the blades are flexed (however minutely) during operation.

Of course, Henry went for the hollow design (probably to try to keep blade weight down and avoid the fabrication costs of machining, forging or casting the complex "airplane propeller" airfoil shape). But then he had to resort to welding (bad for a dynamic, highly-stressed part) as well as the risk of corrosion developing inside the blade where it could not be seen - and that has happened in nearly every failed fan I've inspected. In many cases the corrosion has eaten through to the outside surface of the blade.

Designing for fatigue loading wasn't a well-understood branch of engineering back then so the best choices were not made as to materials, geometry, load prediction, stress analysis, and thorough testing.

What concerns me about the proposed new fan design is whether all of these factors will be fully taken into account. If the new design is to be a dimensionally-accurate replica of the original, and if it is to have solid steel blades instead of Henry's hollow design, then the centrifugal loading at the hub juncture be increased significantly!

Of course a more fatigue-tolerant steel can be selected but that might not be enough. Altering the geometry to increase the fillet radii at the hub juncture (a common way of reducing stress concentration) would ruin geometric accuracy.

If I and many others are going to spend considerable bucks for the new fan we have a reason to be cautious about exactly how the designers have addressed the real cause of the original failures. It is a real safety and car-damage issue. I've had two original fans fail (after having been magnafluxed as "crack-free".). Thankfully, because I inspected before every drive, I caught them before the crack worked its way completely across the blade.

I appreciate the effort that the new designers are making to FINALLY bring us an accurate and RELIABLE fan reproduction that will pass visual high-point judging. I just hope that they will understand the legitimate concern that many of us have and will provide us the necessary technical details and assurance that the design, fabrication and TESTING are being approached properly.

This is truly a SAFETY issue! Can anyone think of any other part on a Model A whereby you can be killed just by standing alongside the stationary car while the motor's running and everything's operating normally?!

AlfinCT · 05-04-2012, 11:49 AM

I'd be glad to buy one. Up to $150-200.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 05-04-2012, 02:50 PM

TIDBIT: Shortly after buying my 351 Cleveland powered '72 Mercury Montego, got a recall notice saying something like, YO! your car may have a man eating, dangerous fan! Don't even get near it, bring it in for a new "IMPROVED" FAN BLADE!
FUN THING: I meet new people by pulling off the road & raising the hood & wrinkling my brow. One samaritan asked, "Trouble?"----"No, I was just admiring my new 6 blade plastic fan whirring." He was impressed when I put my elbow to the fan and it just went "brrrrp!" Then he went on wih a loooong story about when he blew a fan!!!!-----(Most of our guys run 6 blade plastic fans & I've never heard of one breaking) Bill W.

ericr · 05-04-2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earle

I would be very interested - up to the $150 - $175 range.

BUT...I'm also aware of some of the technical issues behind the failure history of the original fan design. In simple terms, it's due to high centrifugal forces causing a stress concentration at the juncture of the blade with the hub. From there on fatigue takes its toll as the blades are flexed (however minutely) during operation.

Of course, Henry went for the hollow design (probably to try to keep blade weight down and avoid the fabrication costs of machining, forging or casting the complex "airplane propeller" airfoil shape). But then he had to resort to welding (bad for a dynamic, highly-stressed part) as well as the risk of corrosion developing inside the blade where it could not be seen - and that has happened in nearly every failed fan I've inspected. In many cases the corrosion has eaten through to the outside surface of the blade.

Designing for fatigue loading wasn't a well-understood branch of engineering back then so the best choices were not made as to materials, geometry, load prediction, stress analysis, and thorough testing.

What concerns me about the proposed new fan design is whether all of these factors will be fully taken into account. If the new design is to be a dimensionally-accurate replica of the original, and if it is to have solid steel blades instead of Henry's hollow design, then the centrifugal loading at the hub juncture be increased significantly!

Of course a more fatigue-tolerant steel can be selected but that might not be enough. Altering the geometry to increase the fillet radii at the hub juncture (a common way of reducing stress concentration) would ruin geometric accuracy.

If I and many others are going to spend considerable bucks for the new fan we have a reason to be cautious about exactly how the designers have addressed the real cause of the original failures. It is a real safety and car-damage issue. I've had two original fans fail (after having been magnafluxed as "crack-free".). Thankfully, because I inspected before every drive, I caught them before the crack worked its way completely across the blade.

I appreciate the effort that the new designers are making to FINALLY bring us an accurate and RELIABLE fan reproduction that will pass visual high-point judging. I just hope that they will understand the legitimate concern that many of us have and will provide us the necessary technical details and assurance that the design, fabrication and TESTING are being approached properly.

This is truly a SAFETY issue! Can anyone think of any other part on a Model A whereby you can be killed just by standing alongside the stationary car while the motor's running and everything's operating normally?!

The Fahnestock book claims that the design emanates from a desire to structure more thickness to the blades to pull more air than a "thin" blade. Whether that was baloney or not, I don't know. Most other cars of the era, I think, employed a four-bladed fan.

steve s · 05-04-2012, 03:01 PM

Somehow, this whole thread got by me without me inserting my motivational photos.

Steve

Also, FWIW, the repro four-blade jobs are not without their issues.

juke joint johnny · 05-04-2012, 03:16 PM

That repop 4 blade fan with the cast hub held together by 4 bolts is another one that flies apart!!! Looks good one minute & flys apart the next .!!!! Lost my rad waterpump and dented the stainless shell on my pickup.
John Cochran

BILL WILLIAMSON · 05-04-2012, 03:25 PM

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God!! After lookin' at previous fan pics, my Jugular Vein is quivering, uncontrolably!! Seriously, knew a man who DIED when a broken fan blade severed his Jugular vein! Bill W.

Phil Z · 05-04-2012, 04:06 PM

I too would be interested on a repro fan at about $200 that would pass judging w/o deduction.

Fred · 05-04-2012, 04:17 PM

Very interesting picture of the torn up fan at the hub...NOTICE none of the big build up of rust that most say is the big problen..

Purdy Swoft · 05-04-2012, 04:28 PM

I'm happy with my aluminum two blade fans. My cars are all drivers and the aluminum fans look close enough to correct for me.

Just to add to the discussion, the old four blade fans that were used on the 33-34 four cylinder Ford trucks are just as dangerious as the original model A fans. I had one fail on my sept 29 , back in 62. I was driving with the hood off and I was lucky not to be hit by the flying fan blade. It also broke the water pump but that was the only damage. I had another truck four blade fan explode on uncle Albert (AA truck that I had) in 1991, That one damaged the hood and radiator. I had an original two blade fan lose a blade on the coupe in the early seventies. I was running with the hood off and nothing else was damaged. I've been lucky twice not to be hit by a flying fan blade. They say that three is a charm. No more steel fans for my model A's , 2 or 4 blade.

steve s · 05-04-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Very interesting picture of the torn up fan at the hub...NOTICE none of the big build up of rust that most say is the big problen..

Here's the hub at maximum resolution. There does appear to be some rust in there. I've no idea whether that's enough to be the problem.

Interestingly, the fellow who this happened to replaced it with another original!

Steve

Marco Tahtaras · 05-04-2012, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earle

Designing for fatigue loading wasn't a well-understood branch of engineering back then so the best choices were not made as to materials, geometry, load prediction, stress analysis, and thorough testing.

Yep, they could have done much better. After all they could have made them to last 160 years instead! Additionally like all the notes permanently affixed to the visor in your modern car, Ford could have imprinted the fan with "DO NOT use the fan to turn over the engine by hand!" That in itself would have improved the life span dramatically!!!

TinCup · 05-04-2012, 07:47 PM

Touche!

steve s · 05-04-2012, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

... Ford could have imprinted the fan with "DO NOT use the fan to turn over the engine by hand!" That in itself would have improved the life span dramatically!!!

Boy, you're right about that, Marco! When I was young, I had 4-blade on my A, and I routinely used it to fine tune the rotor position when setting the timing. Often, I would feel the blade bend, whereafter I would just bend it back until it looked pretty straight. Dumb and lucky!

Steve

columbiA · 05-04-2012, 09:37 PM

Looking at the fan & WP shaft,it appears the fan was loose on the shaft & the nut was wearing into the end of the fan hub.Also,having to have a tight belt with the alt doesnt help things either.I like a generator where the belt has to be only tight enough that you cant turn the gen pulley with your fingers.

Earle · 05-04-2012, 10:25 PM

Point well-taken, Marco. These fans, now 80 years later, technically met their "design life", whatever that was in the designer's mind at the time, given the relatively few miles the cars were driven back then compared to modern cars. But if the cars had been driven anywhere near the number of miles we rack up today, the epidemic of fan failures would have begun in the 1930's instead of 70 or 80 years later. Their fatigue life depends on the number of hours of operatin (cycles) not the number of years gone by. Henry lucked out with the decent service the fans provided over the "average" in-service life of a Model A at the time. He likely did not imagine that A's would still be in use 80+ years into the future - and couldn't have designed for it even if he did know. It would have to have been a trial-and-error testing process, if this fan design was even tested pre-production at all.

These fans had an undefined, "limited life" with safety implications at failure. But this concept wasn't something that auto designers concerned themselves with back then.

As an example of a different design philosophy....In aircraft design, flight safety is everything. When a part cannot be designed with "infinite fatigue life", a very conservative analytical prediction must be made of its operational life span. Then, when that time is up, no matter how good the part looks, it must be replaced with a new one. The aviation industry at that time didn't even fully understand designing for fatigue and many people paid with their lives.

To install a safety-critical, limited-life part (like this fan) on your car today with no idea of how many hours (cycles) of operation it has on it, is very unwise. Even if you knew the exact number of operational cycles the fan had on it, it would be impossible to predict how much life it has left in it.

Oh well...Fun discussion but too deep in the weeds. Bottom line - don't use an original fan on your Model A because you're on borrowed time on a dangerous, life-limited part.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 05-04-2012, 11:27 PM

This has been a very informative thread. I sympathize with the high points car owners on this issue.
I have a stock rebuilt early '29 water pump from my car that has maybe 50 miles on it. It has a beautifully painted 2 blade original fan on it. I would sell it for a fair price or do some trading for a flywheel & housing & starter so I can run my spare engine that I'm buying. Pick up at my place only, too much hassle to ship. P.M.me. Bill Williamson

Mike V. Florida · 05-04-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

This has been a very informative thread. I sympathize with the high points car owners on this issue.

One simple answer would be to allow the fan to be displayed much like the tools are.

Logan · 05-05-2012, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

One simple answer would be to allow the fan to be displayed much like the tools are.

Thats a really good solution. If someone hasnt brought this up to the national clubs already, some of the master judges should mention this as an alternative.

Marco Tahtaras · 05-05-2012, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earle

Point well-taken, Marco. These fans, now 80 years later, technically met their "design life", whatever that was in the designer's mind at the time, given the relatively few miles the cars were driven back then compared to modern cars. But if the cars had been driven anywhere near the number of miles we rack up today, the epidemic of fan failures would have begun in the 1930's instead of 70 or 80 years later. Their fatigue life depends on the number of hours of operatin (cycles) not the number of years gone by. Henry lucked out with the decent service the fans provided over the "average" in-service life of a Model A at the time. He likely did not imagine that A's would still be in use 80+ years into the future - and couldn't have designed for it even if he did know. It would have to have been a trial-and-error testing process, if this fan design was even tested pre-production at all.

These fans had an undefined, "limited life" with safety implications at failure. But this concept wasn't something that auto designers concerned themselves with back then.

As an example of a different design philosophy....In aircraft design, flight safety is everything. When a part cannot be designed with "infinite fatigue life", a very conservative analytical prediction must be made of its operational life span. Then, when that time is up, no matter how good the part looks, it must be replaced with a new one. The aviation industry at that time didn't even fully understand designing for fatigue and many people paid with their lives.

To install a safety-critical, limited-life part (like this fan) on your car today with no idea of how many hours (cycles) of operation it has on it, is very unwise. Even if you knew the exact number of operational cycles the fan had on it, it would be impossible to predict how much life it has left in it.

Oh well...Fun discussion but too deep in the weeds. Bottom line - don't use an original fan on your Model A because you're on borrowed time on a dangerous, life-limited part.

First, although I'm not intimately familiar (I don't work on them) I've seen the rebuilding of jet engine components from the very first Messerschmitt Me 262 (Which I believe three still exist) to modern military stuff so I'm not unfamiliar with what you are suggesting. However you are expressing a wide spread misconception. For some silly reason folks seem to assume cars weren't actually driven in "the olden days" as if they were horse and buggies. That misconception is pure BS. When I was a kid it was a real find to come across a Model A with less than 100k miles on it. My first was a '29 Roadster which was fun speculating whether the mileage was 180k or 280k. It was tired. Now granted that was "modern times", but I did a little work on it and drove it 48k miles in the next six years.

Do not down play or underestimate how much these cars were really used.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 05-05-2012, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

One simple answer would be to allow the fan to be displayed much like the tools are.

It's hanging on my pegboard just below my MACHETTE Bill W.

Marco Tahtaras · 05-05-2012, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

One simple answer would be to allow the fan to be displayed much like the tools are.

Why do folks that will never show a car worry about a solution to a problem that ISN'T a problem for those that do show a car? Ok, I'll try to translate that. I don't know a single person that is truly trying to replicate a factory produced vehicle that could care less about the concerns shared on this forum. However many folks here that will never do so seem to think it's a problem. Is that crazy or what?

Mike V. Florida · 05-05-2012, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Why do folks that will never show a car worry about a solution to a problem that ISN'T a problem for those that do show a car? Ok, I'll try to translate that. I don't know a single person that is truly trying to replicate a factory produced vehicle that could care less about the concerns shared on this forum. However many folks here that will never do so seem to think it's a problem. Is that crazy or what?

Of course not, they have money. If something happens they will just fix it. My son is trying to truly replicate a factory produced vehicle and every dime he and I can scrape together is going into the car. He is still in high school with asperations to go to college and I'm still trying to recover from years of no pay check and a failed business working the overnight shift and finding ocassional daytime work. There is no way on Gods green earth that an original fan will be placed on the car with the engine running. If it were to break (like mine did) it would me the end of the car. We would not be able to afford to replace/repair another radiator, shroud, and hood.

mjm1972 · 05-05-2012, 09:23 AM

This is my 2 cents … First off I am very new to this all and know very little if not jack about my Model A. However I have had a fan break off and cause more issues and money then what ever the price of this new Fan you are talking about, and I escaped my radiator from being destroyed, that would have added more then quadruple the cost of your new product. On the other side after ordering my parts and being told they was of quality and made in America I was let down, and wont be using that very reputable company no more. So if you say you know someone, or can make such a small product more efficient and safe, and can guarantee it 99% as I don’t believe in 100% as something can always go wrong, I say make it and people will buy it.

If that fan inquestion would cost $200.00 that still would have been cheaper then the cost of what I am going to pay for the fix up. This one four blade fan took out the generator, dented the hood and made a big chip in the paint, cracked the water pump in half and again I luck out by it not hitting the radiator. You all know the price of each product I listed. So to sum this up I would buy this one little fan at a premium price (but lets not over do it).

I am one who would want to see an after market look so authentic as so that even the most knowledgeable Model A enthusiast would have to look twice. And how hard can that be to match the original? If you already started production on a after market you are 80% there detail is everything and is very easy to accomplish. Besides as I have come to know the Model A was made by the millions, so the hard part is already done, (you don’t have to recreate the part from scratch) one would just have to care about his name on the product and that to me is a lost art. Just think this site would not be here if Mr. Ford himself did not care about Detail and Quality and something that last for over 80 years. (Built Ford Tough).

And besides Brent, just looking at what you produce would make me a buyer of that fan, I seen your website, and you took the time to break a few things down too me.

I posted my fan blade mishap with pics if anyone wants to see what I was talking about, just look under my name.

Marco Tahtaras · 05-05-2012, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Of course not, they have money. If something happens they will just fix it. My son is trying to truly replicate a factory produced vehicle and every dime he and I can scrape together is going into the car. He is still in high school with asperations to go to college and I'm still trying to recover from years of no pay check and a failed business working the overnight shift and finding ocassional daytime work. There is no way on Gods green earth that an original fan will be placed on the car with the engine running. If it were to break (like mine did) it would me the end of the car. We would not be able to afford to replace/repair another radiator, shroud, and hood.

Folks just love to make assumptions that suit them. From the time I purchased my Roadster (in pieces) to the time I completed the restoration my average annual spending was a whopping $625. Yep, I'm a wealthy fella just like many of my buddies that have shown their cars.

Not putting an original fan on your car is your choice and no big deal. You can still strive for 499 points out of 500.

ericr · 05-05-2012, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

First, although I'm not intimately familiar (I don't work on them) I've seen the rebuilding of jet engine components from the very first Messerschmitt Me 262 (Which I believe three still exist) to modern military stuff so I'm not unfamiliar with what you are suggesting. However you are expressing a wide spread misconception. For some silly reason folks seem to assume cars weren't actually driven in "the olden days" as if they were horse and buggies. That misconception is pure BS. When I was a kid it was a real find to come across a Model A with less than 100k miles on it. My first was a '29 Roadster which was fun speculating whether the mileage was 180k or 280k. It was tired. Now granted that was "modern times", but I did a little work on it and drove it 48k miles in the next six years.

Do not down play or underestimate how much these cars were really used.

but isn't the issue more that the cars have some finite life span before certain components start to wear out and some of those components might thereupon constitute a safety hazard? You have commented many times how the frames sag but I'm not aware that anyone gets injured by a sagging frame.....unless your roadster door doesn't close well and flies open accordingly LOL.

msmaron · 05-05-2012, 11:00 AM

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What i find even more interesting is that "Touring Class" Cars MUST MUST MUST have an ORIGINAL 2 blade fan to get the points.. when i approached one of the members of the committee and asked why would you insist on a 2 blade original for cars driven daily...he replied " OH THATS BULL SH@*%T they are perfectly safe to drive with on a daily basis that is why we want them on their" Opps okay there you have it!

Big John · 05-05-2012, 01:34 PM

why shouldn't the judging standards change?? They allow many repro parts as it is... fenders, radiators, upholstery, etc etc,,,,,,,,, get the stick in the mudders to move....besides this is a safety issue... also an original fan can end up costing more than a repro in the end after it tears up everything, as radiator, hood ,paint, etc....

msmaron · 05-05-2012, 01:43 PM

The TOURING Class is a whole different ball game and why they INSIST is my point on an original 2 blade...seems a bit absurd to me

Blessyouboys · 05-05-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big John

why shouldn't the judging standards change?? They allow many repro parts as it is... fenders, radiators, upholstery, etc etc,,,,,,,,, get the stick in the mudders to move....besides this is a safety issue... also an original fan can end up costing more than a repro in the end after it tears up everything, as radiator, hood ,paint, etc....

There are no exceptions for fenders, radiators or upholstery in the judging standards.

Reproduction fans are allowed in fine point judging today.

The standard is, and has been, that a part will receive full credit it if is indistinguishable from an original.

spdway1 · 05-05-2012, 02:27 PM

Ron in Quincy · 05-05-2012, 02:27 PM

This thread was started as a result of my losing a original fan blade, taking out the radiator and damaging the hood. I have used original fans since 1962 and had never had a problem. As stated by Joe Way, the fan had been magnifluxed and no cracks were detected. However, the inside of the fan cannot be seen to determine if moisture has started the rusting process on the inside.

Attached are two photos of the fan in question. We all know that the fan blades are hollow but also the area around the hub is hollow. The pulley is electrical welded to the hub, the fan blades are electrical welded in only two places to the hub at the bottom next to the pulley,moisture can enter the inside from the un-welded area; these welds did not fatigue, the metal around the welds let go, it appears the crack started at the point where the castle nut seats and progressed down from that point.

There is also another type of original two blade fan that has the pulley soldered to the hub rather than electrical welded. This was determined when I had two original fans that I took for powder coating. The one in question was powdercoated, the other one could not be powdercoated as the oven heat that cures the powdercoating would have melted the solder and come out in two pieces.

I personal recommend that Aers consider not running the original 2 blade fan as only the Lord knows when they will give up ???? I have a original two blade fan on my A1276, but only had to complete the manditory tour, slow driving, at the National Meet in San Diego. If I start doing more driving with this A I will change the fan.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 05-05-2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big john

why shouldn't the judging standards change?? they allow many repro parts as it is... Fenders, radiators, upholstery, etc etc,,,,,,,,, get the stick in the mudders to move....besides this is a safety issue... Also an original fan can end up costing more than a repro in the end after it tears up everything, as radiator, hood ,paint, etc....

? ? ?

Ron in Quincy · 05-05-2012, 05:37 PM

Btt

Fred · 05-05-2012, 05:55 PM

RON, Why BTT ?? How many times can you kill a dead horse ?? Nobody says you have to have an original fan to be in fine point.. Run what you brung !!.. In the First World meet in 1986 I had White Wall tires on my car & still got a Mark of Excellence award.. Its your car, put on it what you want !!..

spdway1 · 05-05-2012, 06:35 PM

OK OK OK, MOST of us get it!

Ron in Quincy · 05-05-2012, 07:50 PM

Fred,

It is not for people like you, I thought some of the younger people might want to know about the interior of the fan, and why it may look good but be a time bomb waiting to happen.

I was not bragging about being in fine point judging, read the post and why I mentioned the fact I would change the fan if going to drive the A very nuch. Tou are the oine that talked about MARC of Excellent, I did not mention it.

Thanks, Ron

329s · 05-05-2012, 10:14 PM

It is threads like this that are educational not only to the Model A'er who has been in the hobby a few years but to also the young neophytes out there that need to know of these issues that may present a safety hazzard later down the road.

Thank you Mr. Rude for your knowledge and sharing an experience for which I do not ever want to experience myself.

There will come a day, and I hope it will not be in the near future, when one of these fan blades will come off at the wrong time. I just hope none of us here or anywhere else as that goes is not on the other end of the "flight" if you know what I mean.

However the first time it happens...I garuntee you that the Standards will change.

Pluck

Earle · 05-06-2012, 04:25 PM

I enjoy these kinds of discussions as they tend to bring out points that some folks may not have ever considered. If someone picks up a safety tip out of it and an injury or serious car damage is avoided, it's all worth it.

Marco, I have always appreciated your inputs here and have learned and applied a lot from them - and look forward to many more of your expert contributions. But I will stand by my own "technical" observations about the original fan because I've personally been affected by these failures and have made an effort to learn as much as possible about the fan's design, construction, failure modes and causes. I certainly don't know all there is to know and, as with other things about the good old Model A, there are honest, thoughtful differences of opinion on the subject - as we see very often here.

If you're inclined to be one to defend the original fan and its continued use today, for whatever reasons, that's your choice. But the history of failures and the expense they've caused folks who've used them should be known by both the informed and the nubie-uninformed so they can make their own decision. I don't think that someone who voices that position should be accused of "spreading misinformation and B.S." We here can easily stick to the issues without denigrating the other person.

Yes, out of five million Model A's produced, it is a statistical reality that some were driven "100's of thousands of miles" with no fan troubles. That kind of statistical scatter of failure data is true of practically every mechanical part ever produced. But it's also a fact that the average car of the 30's accumulated nowhere near the number of miles, and as quickly, as modern cars. I too would like to know the failure rates of this fan in the 30's but we may never know that. However, we can see that even change-averse old Henry was forced, for some reason, to re-design the fan toward the end of production - and to a less-aerodynamically-efficient, yet more durable, design no less! Was it because of unacceptably-high failure rates in service? - or simply, as Henry was prone to do, to cut the cost of manufacturing wherever possible? I'm taking a wild guess that failures had something to do with it. Even a "few" failures back then would have quickly become a high-profile issue (as they have in spades today!) for public relations given the damage and safety implications. When someone is not lucky enough to catch a beginning crack very quickly and pull the fan, these end up not being "passive" failures.

All of the input here, I think, has been informative, useful and even entertaining. Good stuff. Gotta do more of it - but without belittling the guy who voices an unpopular or innocently-erronious view or asks that inevitable "dumb question" from time to time. I've asked my share of them. We're all gentlemen, right (to varying degrees)?

Note - I hear the reports of others who mentioned different locations for initiation of the cracks. My own experience with each of seven original fans (while trying to find just ONE I could use - back when I was uninformed about them and was overly-obsessed with "originality") was that the crack initiated at the radius where the leading edge of the blade intersected the hub. Classic fatigue failures. Two of them developed cracks within a few hours of running AFTER being certified "crack-free" by professional magnaflux inspection.

ericr · 05-06-2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earle

I enjoy these kinds of discussions as they tend to bring out points that some folks may not have ever considered. If someone picks up a safety tip out of it and an injury or serious car damage is avoided, it's all worth it.

Marco, I have always appreciated your inputs here and have learned and applied a lot from them - and look forward to many more of your expert contributions. But I will stand by my own "technical" observations about the original fan because I've personally been affected by these failures and have made an effort to learn as much as possible about the fan's design, construction, failure modes and causes. I certainly don't know all there is to know and, as with other things about the good old Model A, there are honest, thoughtful differences of opinion on the subject - as we see very often here.

If you're inclined to be one to defend the original fan and its continued use today, for whatever reasons, that's your choice. But the history of failures and the expense they've caused folks who've used them should be known by both the informed and the nubie-uninformed so they can make their own decision. I don't think that someone who voices that position should be accused of "spreading misinformation and B.S." We here can easily stick to the issues without denigrating the other person.

Yes, out of five million Model A's produced, it is a statistical reality that some were driven "100's of thousands of miles" with no fan troubles. That kind of statistical scatter of failure data is true of practically every mechanical part ever produced. But it's also a fact that the average car of the 30's accumulated nowhere near the number of miles, and as quickly, as modern cars. I too would like to know the failure rates of this fan in the 30's but we may never know that. However, we can see that even change-averse old Henry was forced, for some reason, to re-design the fan toward the end of production - and to a less-aerodynamically-efficient, yet more durable, design no less! Was it because of unacceptably-high failure rates in service? - or simply, as Henry was prone to do, to cut the cost of manufacturing wherever possible? I'm taking a wild guess that failures had something to do with it. Even a "few" failures back then would have quickly become a high-profile issue (as they have in spades today!) for public relations given the damage and safety implications. When someone is not lucky enough to catch a beginning crack very quickly and pull the fan, these end up not being "passive" failures.

All of the input here, I think, has been informative, useful and even entertaining. Good stuff. Gotta do more of it - but without belittling the guy who voices an unpopular or innocently-erronious view or asks that inevitable "dumb question" from time to time. I've asked my share of them. We're all gentlemen, right (to varying degrees)?

Note - I hear the reports of others who mentioned different locations for initiation of the cracks. My own experience with each of seven original fans (while trying to find just ONE I could use - back when I was uninformed about them and was overly-obsessed with "originality") was that the crack initiated at the radius where the leading edge of the blade intersected the hub. Classic fatigue failures. Two of them developed cracks within a few hours of running AFTER being certified "crack-free" by professional magnaflux inspection.

Isn't it pretty well accepted that the Company essentially used the public as their testing ground in many aspects? Which I'm sure many companies have done and still do, whether they admit it or not. Certainly technology for quality control was very primitive back in Model "A" days but still.....

Marco Tahtaras · 05-06-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earle

If you're inclined to be one to defend the original fan and its continued use today, for whatever reasons, that's your choice. But the history of failures and the expense they've caused folks who've used them should be known by both the informed and the nubie-uninformed so they can make their own decision. I don't think that someone who voices that position should be accused of "spreading misinformation and B.S." We here can easily stick to the issues without denigrating the other person.

If you look back at what I wrote I've never suggested that ANYONE else run one. In fact in this same thread, two years ago this month, I wrote:

"With all that said I won't recommend anyone else run an original fan. I don't want to be called to task for the decisions of others and the resulting success or failure. It also won't hurt my feelings to have more fans to choose from on the swap meet tables!"

In recent days I've only argued against the supposition that the original design was a failure from day one and should have lasted forever. I've also argued in the past against those that insist an original fan should be disregarded in judging, most of whom admit they have no interest in ever showing a car however seem compelled to write the rules for those that do. There are some exceptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earle

Note - I hear the reports of others who mentioned different locations for initiation of the cracks. My own experience with each of seven original fans (while trying to find just ONE I could use - back when I was uninformed about them and was overly-obsessed with "originality") was that the crack initiated at the radius where the leading edge of the blade intersected the hub. Classic fatigue failures. Two of them developed cracks within a few hours of running AFTER being certified "crack-free" by professional magnaflux inspection.

Yep, I've felt like doing a writeup on the subject but just don't have the time. However since you brought it up I will add one point of interest (to me anyway). If you look carefully at an original fan you will note that the two layers are seam welded together around the perimeter. Some have clear pattern from the rollers. Look closely where the weld ends in the front near the hub. The machine was only able to get so close leaving a very short "open" area between the end of the weld and where the layers fold over the hub. This is the flex point where the two layers can move independently as they weaken. Every crack I've seen was at the end of the weld.

In my case, my fan has never been bulged from internal corrosion, the front face is flat, the blades are in line across the central axis, and although not tested I believe the pitch of both blades still match. Lastly, the "open" area has been tig welded closed to reduce the ability to flex at that point.

Will that all save my bacon? Only time will tell. I've run the engine at very high speeds a few times which I won't likely do again but so far, so good. Again, only time will tell. If it fails without me catching it in time then it's on me. As with most things in life, It's MY choice.

Earle · 05-06-2012, 05:52 PM

Given the $millions it can cost (and has cost) car companies to knowingly put an unsafe design into production, I tend to think that financial liability alone, if not sincere concern for customer safety, prevents manufacturers from using the public as test guinea pigs.

I am slightly biased but I have a measure of "faith" in the professionalism of the typical engineer/designer in the automotive - or any transportation - industry from those few I've met and from their history. My experience is in the aerospace industry and I think there couldn't be a better group of serious, professional people in the world than those engineers tasked with designing a machine that will carry folks aloft where they can't simply walk away from a catastrophic design failure. There were the ocassional "hints" from management to speed up a project or refrain from "overly-conservative (i.e. too costly and too heavy)" design but the engineering department always had the final say in what was necessary in the safe, functional design of a part or a system - even if schedules or budgets were not met. You had pride in yourself and your work, and knew what the consequences of cutting corners were.

I can't speak personally about the automotive industry as a whole but I tend to generally trust engineers over any other department in any given company. Yes, honest mistakes are made but they are very conservative and do the absolute best job possible with the information and materials they have. Their only personal financial interest is in the fact that safe, quality designs sell. Dangerous, shoddy designs don't.

I want to think that early Ford engineers were not too different. They didn't intentionally design anything to be dangerous or to use the customer as a guinea pig.

Earle · 05-06-2012, 07:35 PM

"...I've only argued against the supposition that the original design was a failure from day one and should have lasted forever."

In my opinion, it's not a supposition; The original design was flawed (which led to "failure" and unpredictable limited life) from day one. It would never have been designed that way by today's engineering standards. But this is 20/20 hindsight. Given the engineering information, materials and manufacturing paractices they had back then, it was the best they could do. I don't argue that it should have lasted forever but it can't be denied that the design started out in life with several strikes against it (by today's standards) that guaranteed a forshortened service life.

It was brilliant in all other aspects (except for fatigue, manufacturing technique and corrosion prevention) because of its relatively light weight and its "airplane propeller" airfoil shape that beats out even modern fans in its aerodynamic effectiveness and efficiency.

All the best as you continue to run your original fan. You seem to have one of the few remaining statistical flukes but you can be assured that you're running on "borrowed fatigue cycles." I'm sure you inspect it very often!

mjm1972 · 05-08-2012, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by forever4

Just wondering how did the fan destroy the water pump?

What ever fan is the best no one really knows, as both seem to do good for some and others they have had fail. I've now seen the 2 blade and 4 blade, original and after market cause damage by some of your stories and pictures and also my own issue with it.

And for those of you that say you drive miles and miles on an original fan and have never had an issue you are just lucky that's all. In time your fan will go, I do hope you catch it in time before it goes .. but it will go.

One thing I do know for sure is that Original or After market fans when they do decide to let go, that one little cheap in price fan causes a hole lot of money. Regular checks and replacements will come on my car, replacements will come as changing oils and spark plugs would normally come.. even if I don't see a crack.

link to my fan issue
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69019

05-12-2010, 04:10 PM	#1
JoeWay Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy CA Posts: 752	Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Our club attended the Northern Ca Spring Opener in Ukiah recently. On the way home, one member lost a blade from his original fan. It wiped out a nearly new Brassworks radiator and put two dents in the upper right hood panel. This fan had been wet-Magnafluxed at an aviation repair shop and certified free of cracks, yet failed within about 1400 miles of installation. Guys and gals, take those original welded blades off unless you're about to enter judging. Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades. Joe P.S. According to the adjuster, his Grundy insurance will cover all the damage except for the broken fan blade itself. __________________ 1929 Tudor since 1962 Feather River A's

05-12-2010, 04:22 PM	#2
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,508	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS? Feedback?? . __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

05-12-2010, 04:43 PM	#3
Bruce in southern OH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Proctorville Posts: 1,582	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Several years ago, I drove my 31 Vicky to church, on way home no problem, stopped to let son get paper out of paper box, he said there was water coming out of hood loovers, drove 300 more feet to park at house, opened hood and the two blade fan had ate the radiator, got me, cost a lot to fix and never was the same fit with different radiator, get them out before someone is killed by a bad blade, Bruce As far as look alike, I don't care, let us see one, Bruce

05-12-2010, 04:44 PM	#4
Clem Clement Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 3,393	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I think the clearly all original blades should be removed and become part of your tool kit for the judges to inspect. Use a repro for goodness sake. This is a known safety issue which should stand higher the demand for originalness. clem Clement

05-12-2010, 04:57 PM	#5
msmaron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wauconda, IL Posts: 3,600	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll [QUOTE=JoeWay;5985]Our club attended the Northern Ca Spring Opener in Ukiah recently. On the way home, one member lost a blade from his original fan. It wiped out a nearly new Brassworks radiator and put two dents in the upper right hood panel. Guys and gals, take those original welded blades off unless you're about to enter judging. Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades. Very good safety point. Mark __________________ Mark Maron Ill., Region MARC & MAFCA MARC JSC Member MAFFI Trustee National Facebook Admin. https://www.facebook.com/groups/MARC.group/ A7191-Sport Coupe 29 Roadster 29-Town Sedan 29-Original Special Coupe

05-12-2010, 05:28 PM	#7
Tacoma Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 1,025	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Yup some people never learn and insist they still have the same air that Henry put in the tires. As far as Brent's hint I for one would want to know where the steel came from to manufacture new ones.

05-12-2010, 05:37 PM	#8
PO51 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Upland Ca Posts: 274	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I would be interested

05-12-2010, 05:41 PM	#9
dudley32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: fayetteville n.c. Posts: 139	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Me too..!

05-12-2010, 05:44 PM	#10
Dennis Pereira Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Georgetown Divide Kelsey ca Posts: 868	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I would within reason.

05-12-2010, 06:02 PM	#13
Rich in Tucson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 374	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I would be interested in one for one car, but I also would be interested in a better made aluminum fan for other cars.

05-12-2010, 06:05 PM	#14
Deluxe Delivery Don Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mill Creek WA. Posts: 341	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Me too! I would buy one also because the body work repairs would be alot more. $75.00 to $100.00 would then be cheap

05-12-2010, 06:09 PM	#15
peters180a/170b Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Putnam Valley N.Y. Posts: 2,151	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll A guy that i know has been working on this idea of a Authentic STEEL 2 -blade fan for a year now.. What is holding him up in the AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS .Everything else there is no problem. I just spoke to John and he plans making a trip to Ford Headquarters and see is there is some kind of blueprints. Brent send me a email or call and maybe your guy and my guy can hookup and share ideas and $$$$. We need only 1 person to do this in this kind of market.

05-12-2010, 07:39 PM	#17
eswanson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Le Roy, IL Posts: 157	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I have seen a fan off a Model A and one off of a Model T (both owned by the same guy) come through the hood. If you have a safe option that is nearly original I'd say God bless ya - send me a bill __________________ Peace & Grace, Eric Swanson 1931 Model A Pickup

05-12-2010, 08:25 PM	#19
peters180a/170b Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Putnam Valley N.Y. Posts: 2,151	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Brent , the weld spots around the hub/fan blade to hub. Having a hard time doing the same spot welds.Other then that all is good to go.

05-12-2010, 08:31 PM	#20
Jim Mason Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 913	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll [QUOTE=JoeWay;5985] Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades. The standards do allow a 'original style metal fan' to pass prelim judging. Then it's a points deduction in final judging. They have for over a year...fwiw,jm

05-12-2010, 08:36 PM	#21
MBI Houston Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: The Woodlands, TX Posts: 173	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I would be interested if it looks good and is not too expensive. Less then $100.

05-12-2010, 08:43 PM	#22
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Question for Joe, what is your normal top speed? And did your fan ever have any rust pits, or make noise from rust specks inside the blade? Did you do periodic checks of the blade when the hood was open for any other reason? I don't want to loose a fan blade, but I am running my original 2 blade fan. Brent, I'd like to see a good repro fan made. Yes, price would matter as far as purchase.

05-12-2010, 10:04 PM	#24
RandyinUtah Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ogden Utah Posts: 242	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll About fifteen years ago I purchased a steel reproduction fan from Bratens and it was so out of balance and untrue that I sent it back. I would be interested in purchasing if the new one check out.

05-12-2010, 10:29 PM	#25
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening. Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, *I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat.* If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect. Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html

05-13-2010, 01:44 AM	#27
TerryH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fountain Valley, Calif. Posts: 937	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll After all of the many, many warning posts listed the past couple of years, it is hard to imagine anyone still insisting on using those old steel fans. The word has been out for a long time now, but maybe the local clubs need to emphasize this to their members...........

05-13-2010, 05:33 AM	#28
peters180a/170b Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Putnam Valley N.Y. Posts: 2,151	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll The guy i am talking about with a "NEW STEEL" authentic fan did test one out. And yes its 10X stronger and runs at a higher rpm's. He even flew down to Texas to speak to Miller welding company about the welds.

05-13-2010, 07:39 AM	#30
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll i just had a 4 blade one go the other dat so the problem is not just the oririnal 2 bladed ones. As for judging, what is the price point return? Is $200.00 - $300.00 worth the money for the number of points you will receive? Let's face it, with enough money you can have an A built with brand new materials and have it make 500 points. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

05-13-2010, 07:45 AM	#31
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll mike was it the replacement bolt together 4 blade fan

05-13-2010, 08:32 AM	#34
Bruce Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sun City West, AZ Posts: 489	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll The late '31 design/replacement fan Ford offered to fix this problem 75 years ago? Not heard much feedback on that fan -- other than it is rare and expensive.

05-13-2010, 08:47 AM	#35
Tom from Drippin' Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dripping Springs, Texas Posts: 286	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I don't have a dog in this hunt....I have 6 blade plastic on my cars...But, as I understand it, it's not IF an original will self destruct, it's WHEN. Bet you can't get a radiator replaced.......hood repaired......or ckeck out of the ER.....cheaper. Then you have to buy/find a new fan anyway.

05-13-2010, 08:53 AM	#36
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,156	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Was the late 31 fan made for a "fix" or was it just cheaper to manufacture? I have been using the late fan for 35 years, I bought a NOS one at hershey -the seller told me it was no good for judging because it had the "seam" on the back (which means I bought it cheap) I have seen the late fans with broken blades also, they seem to mostly break at the weld seam. After looking at the quality of the reproduction alum fan I decided to take my chances with what I have.

05-13-2010, 09:26 AM	#37
Sparky Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 649	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I have a 2-blade fan and you are making me nervous. How do you tell if it is an original fan? I'm guessing that it is not, but is there a way to check without removing it?

05-13-2010, 09:42 AM	#38
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll If you have a 2 blade fan and the blades are made by welding 2 stamped pieces of steel together with a rolled weld around the outer edge of the blades, then you have an original fan like I am running. A single thickness steel 2 blade would be a later replacement, or even a replacement 4 blade with 2 blades removed. The aluminum 2 blade fans had a problem with blades not being parallel to each other, and one blade often looked like it was curved rearward. Hopefully the ones being made now are much improved. I haven't worked on one for a year or more.

05-13-2010, 10:11 AM	#41
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,508	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I wish Marco would chime in here and give his opinion. One thing that I can say with regard to "after all the points" is this, ...plans are at this moment that there will be 5 cars in fine-point judging at French Lick this summer that have been restored at my shop. In each case, ALL of their owners have made conscience decisions where they feel they are satisfied with losing points for the sake of financial prudence. I would imagine other folks have navigated through the same 'waters' with regard to this and made like decisions. Knowing what I know about it from their perspective, all of them have different goals for which direction they went and each of those decisions have a vast amount of merit. To me, the issue that needs to be resolved first is "why" they break. I recently heard a story about a mechanic who instructed his apprentice to repair something on a car. After a few hours, the apprentice returned to the instructor and stated "It's all fixed now!" The instructor asked the young man did you determine what caused the item to break? The apprentice shook his head and said No. At that point, the instructor explain to the apprentice, then you really didn't fix the problem did you. THAT is kinda my attitude. Making a new fan that looks authentic is awesome but if there is still concern about the new one breaking too, then maybe they problem has not been determined & solved. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

05-13-2010, 10:19 AM	#43
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I've never been clear on this. My Town sedan has a four blade steel fan. Is it OK? Regards, Terry

05-13-2010, 10:22 AM	#44
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll how are the aftermarket 4 blade bolt together fans as far as reliability

05-13-2010, 10:29 AM	#45
Richard/Ca Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Manteca,Ca, Posts: 368	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll I would buy one if the price was right. I just like the looks of a two blade fan. Even though I also had one come apart on me.Luckly it just put a hole in the hood.

05-13-2010, 12:38 PM	#48
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Joe, I agree with you 100%. There is nothing you can do beyond inspection that shows a part to be sound, either used or new. Mean time between failure is just an average on any part. It applied to the original fans, and it applies to replacements. I'm not convinced that a brand new one will fare any better. The first new one could last a hundred years and a million miles, the second new one a year and 1000 miles. Both may have x-rayed perfect. MTBF would then be 50 years and 500,500 miles. That doesn't help the guy who bought the second one. If it is identical to the original part, it will have an identical failure profile. It took Henry 3 years on the first design to realize there was a problem, if that's what the new fan is like there will be some % of failures fairly soon. After 4 years, Ford gave up on the design, including the later '31 fan design. B's had no welds. Would I buy one, even if they are $300? Yea, before I'd buy a $50 aluminum one, if convenience was the issue and I didn't want a visible replacement. I may buy one anyway, just because it will fit into my repop collection.

05-13-2010, 12:49 PM	#49
skip Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 408	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll OK where do I sign up for a stamped steel fan? Too good to be true. We should have some confidence that a new stamped steel fan is 'a stout fellow'. How about a test till failure? Spin it till it don't come home. Oh reminds me the space shuttle. A turbine bladed fuel pump needed a scatter shield around it 'just in case'. So the engineers spun her up with a blanket around it till it came apart. Not only did it go through the blanket, the lab, the wall but out into the parking lot. The turbine flys tomarrow with no blanket around it. An acceptable risk since the pump runs far below failure data. skip. Last edited by skip; 05-13-2010 at 01:01 PM.

05-13-2010, 01:07 PM	#50
skip Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 408	Re: Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll Hartzell Fan inc Piqua Ohio. Hummmmm They make aeroplane propellers and industrial fans. They have the engineering. And test lab And know how They just need to assess the need That would be all of us Can they make a buck on it skip.