Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2019, 04:37 PM   #1
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 1,151
Default Engine starter, revision

Hello,

I revise the starter. The collector must be turned off / sanded round. What is the minimum diameter?


Thanks!
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A, Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules W 2000, 1976; (with NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine), Canadian version
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 10:36 AM   #2
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 6,140
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

I went and looked in my papers on starter-generator, I don't have any specs, ---I don't even have original new diameter (I can get that from NOS armature I have)
A lot can be taken and still work, look at the end ,many times the remaining thickness can be seen, they are thicker in the center, sort of a K shape where they are clamped to the hub
it should be turned so the mica is cut to the same level as the bars, do not undercut between the bars,
The Citroen can use the same drive as the model A---I have a traction too
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 03-06-2019, 10:43 AM   #3
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Kurt, you mention that the mica should not be undercut. That's different advice from what I've always thought I knew. I believe that the mica is supposed to be undercut after resurfacing the commutator.
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 11:37 AM   #4
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 8,711
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

I was taught you undercut a generator but not a starter.
Bob
Bob C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 11:41 AM   #5
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 5,004
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C View Post
I was taught you undercut a generator but not a starter.
Bob
Ditto
__________________
If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!.
Got my education out behind the barn!
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 02:40 PM   #6
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Does anyone know the reason for undercutting a generator but not a starter?
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 04:12 PM   #7
lindy williams
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 335
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

The low spring pressure and soft carbon brushes on a generator may smear the mica on the surface of the commutator. the higher spring pressure and hard copper brushes on the starter cut the mica away and avoid any chance of the conductive brush residue from getting between the commutator segment and shorting between them.
lindy williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 04:54 PM   #8
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 1,151
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Hello,
thanks for that informations!

Unfortunately, the original thickness is no longer recognizable on the collector because the vertical flank was also turned over. The problem is that the individual collector fields are getting narrower due to too smaller collector radius. Then (in my opinion) also shallower electricity coals must be used. Because otherwise several fields simultaneously receive power.

The mica insulator is already flush with the copper. It must be deeply sawn because of the coal dust.

From the Citroen I could use a few spare parts. It is interesting that during Ford the Bendix sits behind the pinion and protrudes far into the bellbody. Poor bearing!



Hello Kurt,
you have a Citroen Traction Avant? What type? How does it look?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1090576.jpg (60.3 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg P1090569.jpg (60.0 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg P1090552.jpg (58.5 KB, 19 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A, Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules W 2000, 1976; (with NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine), Canadian version
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2019, 07:20 PM   #9
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 6,140
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

The Ford brushes are hard copper, this will wear the mica at mostly the same rate as the commutator bars
Many European starters have soft copper/carbon brushes---they get undercut

It's a 1953 11B normal, this is old picture, I have it painted now and am putting parts in, most of the mechanical parts are done, need to get some chrome and cad plating done
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0008.JPG (187.4 KB, 28 views)
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2019, 02:17 AM   #10
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 1,151
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Good morning Kurt & others!


There were carbon brushes installed. I have used new one from the Traction (Duccellier), which looks like copper, it is just the surface.

Your 11 B is the last series, we call it "Koffer"-Modell. (Trunk, suitcase.) I have the predecessor, the "Rad"-Modell. (Wheel.) Also a "B".

How is the spare part situation in US? Here you have to be very careful, most comes from India and is very bad!

Is that a "Dyane" in the background?


Beste Ölfinger-Grüße,
Werner
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1000778kr.jpg (100.2 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Fritz (136).jpg (64.1 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Frings 30046k.jpg (121.3 KB, 18 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A, Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules W 2000, 1976; (with NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine), Canadian version
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2019, 08:09 AM   #11
Tom Wesenberg
Senior Member
 
Tom Wesenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 27,582
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Don't worry about the smaller diameter, as it isn't much smaller, so you still use the same thickness copper brushes. As mentioned, you should never undercut the starter armature commutator.
Tom Wesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2019, 12:59 PM   #12
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 8,099
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

The starter uses two carbon brushes as ground brushes . The other two bronze-copper brushes of the starter connects to the field coils . Usually the metal brushes will last a lifetime. If the metal brushes aren't badly worn it is usually best to leave them alone. It is very close and the metal brushes are soldered on instead of being connected with screws like the ground brushes . If the armature brush wires get bent out of shape It will be difficult or impossible for the wires to clear the armature . It is pretty easy to ruin an otherwise good starter if a person doesn't have the correct tools to replace the field brushes . The mica between the segments of the commutator on the starter shouldn't be under cut as it will cause sparking when in operation. There is a big difference in undercutting the mica between the segments and turning down the commutator to restore roundness . A special armature lathe was used to true the commutator , if it is out of round .

Generators should have the mica undercut . I use a hack saw blade for this purpose . If the generator commutator is cut too much to obtain roundness , it can reduce charging ability . The more the commutator is turned down it will reduce charging ability depending on how much the commutator was turned down . If the generator commutator is out of round it can cause the brushes to bounce . If the brushes bounce , The needle of the ammeter will bounce as it charges .

Last edited by Purdy Swoft; 03-07-2019 at 01:21 PM.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2019, 01:47 PM   #13
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 6,140
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
Don't worry about the smaller diameter, as it isn't much smaller, so you still use the same thickness copper brushes. As mentioned, you should never undercut the starter armature commutator.
Tom, he mentioned he was using Citroen traction duccellier brushes and they are soft, the starter that uses them is undercut
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2019, 03:07 PM   #14
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 1,151
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Hello dear helpers!

This starter motor is very similar to the type that Duccellier built. 4 carbon brushes. Duccellier stipulates during the revision that the mica must be sawed in 3/10 mm. So that dust and abrasion can not form an electrically conductive bridge due smearing.

My Kollector had to be turned off 7/100 because of ripple. The shaft had a side impact of 1.5 mm. Now there is a lot of sub-measure, I think. But the starter runs very clean and with high speed. Time will tell how long the armature is running ...

But there is another problem: The claw clutch in the Bendix has a crack. I also had the same problem with the bendix in my Citroen. There, the claw has broken through and the piece burned up exactly between two grinding carbons!
The problem was probably common, because in the subsequent starter drives Bendix built this claw clutch no longer. Only the spring has transmitted the entire force. However, the Citroen engine has only 760 cu. inch displacement.

Does anyone have experience with it on the A-motor?

The first picture shows the crack in the claw clutch of the Ford, on the second the cracked claw of the Traction.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1090574R.jpg (53.3 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg Frings 26599.jpg (49.0 KB, 8 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A, Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules W 2000, 1976; (with NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine), Canadian version
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2019, 10:05 PM   #15
Kurt in NJ
Senior Member
 
Kurt in NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: on the Littlefield
Posts: 6,140
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

Ford sold it, part #B11357A

The grey car is a 57 Citroen AZU van
Kurt in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2019, 01:19 AM   #16
Tom Wesenberg
Senior Member
 
Tom Wesenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 27,582
Default Re: Engine starter, revision

The parts shown in #14 is to keep the spring from being twisted inward to a smaller diameter. The parts spin on the shaft, so they don't transfer any drive power to the flywheel. The crack isn't much of a problem and can last for many years, but the broken part will need to be replaced.
Tom Wesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:00 AM.