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Old 11-28-2020, 09:11 PM   #1
zuburg
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Default I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

After almost 5 years of trying to fix the Frankenstein 1956 T-bird I bought, I’m almost ready to see if it will start. I just have a few things to button up.

One thing is on my old engine a small curvy tube that I now know was the automatic choke inlet tube. It was the tube that was inserted into the grommet under the ledge of the carb and then went into the intake via a brass elbow. It broke trying to remove it when disassembling so I now have a new tube. I couldn’t reuse the old brass elbow so will have to order it. Does the brass elbow just push into the hole on the intake?

Also, I don’t seem to have an outlet tube or crossover. Is something missing or will it run with just the inlet tube?
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File Type: jpg 76B7DB84-EE5A-4DFB-8ECC-FE619C0B3C74.jpg (64.3 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by zuburg; 11-29-2020 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Are you talking about these parts?
The long thin tube crosses left to right thru the inside of the intake manifold. It provides heated air for the choke and keeps it separate from the exhaust gases inside that larger crossover passage, so the choke mechanism doesn't get clogged up or damaged.
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File Type: jpg choke heat tube kit.jpg (36.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 56 4bbl teapot intake copy, bottom.jpg (69.2 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg choke heat tube, copy.jpg (80.7 KB, 118 views)

Last edited by dmsfrr; 11-29-2020 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

ditto to what dmsfrr posted, and to add to his post - that grommet in the base of the Holley 4000 carburetor is for the tube to provide hot air to the air/fuel mix. The other side of the crossover tube (passenger side) is actually for the hot air choke feed.

Keep at it - you will get this thing squared away my friend!
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

I’ll check in my box of parts to see if I have the outlet tube. (there are very few parts left) I know I’ve never seen the insulator but I’m not surprised. The old engine did run, so should I assume the crossover tube is in the manifold or is there a way to tell? How do you remove the old one and can you install a new one with the manifold in place? Do you have a picture showing the outlet tube on the passenger side?
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

It may(?) be possible to install a missing long tube from the passenger side if the valves & valve springs aren't in the way. I've never tried it, and it may be a one-way procedure???
If you can figure a way to see if the long thin tube will hold some lung powered air pressure when the other end is temporarily plugged, that would tell you if the tube is in place and in potentially good condition.
If the old tube is in there and damaged I'd guess the manifold needs to come off to replace it. OR, just plug both ends of the small hole where the tube is, but then you'd have no hot air for the choke. I don't know if an electric choke cover will work on a teapot carb. I've heard the coil spring may be wound the opposite direction???

Photo 3 above is the outlet tube on the passenger side. It may be a photo of a '57 but they're 99% the same.

Here's the only photo I have of the '56 driver's side, it's not very good.
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File Type: jpg 56 intake choke tube.jpg (69.6 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by dmsfrr; 11-29-2020 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 11-29-2020, 01:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

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Now that's a very rare car you have! '46 T-Bird, eh? Just a friendly editorial notice...LOL
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:45 AM   #7
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

The tube supplies heated air to the choke assy, not to fuel mixture -




Quote:
Does the brass elbow just push into the hole on the intake?
Yes, just an interference fit.
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:36 AM   #8
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Fat fingers win again.
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

I was thinking about this all night worrying I would have to take apart all the stuff I’ve just done and remove the intake to fix this. (I thought maybe I should just set it on fire and collect the insurance.)

I was wondering if the tube stuck out on each side and the brass elbows connected but it sounds like you don’t see the tube once installed?
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

If the brass elbows are fitted to both sides the choke heat tube should be in there. They are a snug fit into the ends of the tube, and should twist out if you want to remove them. The elbows likely cover the ends of the tube from view.
If the tube weren't in there the elbows would fall out.

Two photos of a '56 ECZ-A intake manifold with the heat tube, you can see the ends from the outside. You may need a small mirror and a good light?
The tube shows easily on the drivers side of this one as the end is flush with the manifold surface. photo # 1
The passenger side end is recessed a bit but can be seen inside. photo # 2
Just because I could, I inserted a length of 1/8 plastic tubing into it, covered the hole at the other side of the manifold with a finger and blew into the plastic tube with good results. I'm hoping you can do the same.
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg drivers side heat tube elbow.jpg (51.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg pass side heat tube.jpg (44.9 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by dmsfrr; 11-29-2020 at 11:59 AM. Reason: add photos
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:55 PM   #11
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

The only way to replace the tube is to remove the intake. CASCO offers the tube and an install tool.

If the tube is rotted out (or rots out), you will hear exhaust tones. Not as bad today as they removed lead from gasoline.
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Old 11-29-2020, 01:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Thanks to all for the pointers. I now know why I was confused and didn’t have the outlet tube (passenger side) tube. The hole was blocked off with a bolt (see 1st picture). Good news: I can see the crossover tube. Bad news: it does not hold pressure when I blow through it while plugging the other end with my finger. 2nd picture shows the end of the old inlet tube that broke off trying to remove it from the brass elbow. I’m guessing the long tube looks similar or worse? l’m guessing it might be hard to remove the long tube based on the shape of the inlet tube?

In looking at the Concours catalog (love their illustrated catalog, it helped me more than the shop manual), on page 76, it shows part # 9492 (57, heat tube end “mushroom” plug on the inlet (driver side) looking like you plug the inlet side with it. It also shows the inlet tube with brass elbow. I assume one would use one or the other depending on your situation? When would you use the plug? It does not show the plug on the outlet (passenger side).

Questions:

1. When would you use the mushroom plug mentioned above?

2. What would happen if you had the inlet tube connected but the outlet side plugged? Would it still run? Would the choke effectively not work? I live in NC, pretty moderate temps. The car started set up this way, even with all it’s other issues.

3. What would happen if I hooked up both the inlet and outlet tubes as normal, knowing the crossover tube does not hold pressure? Would I get some heat to help the choke?

4. I have one new line with fittings that I have yet to install and am not sure what it is (last picture). The only thing I can think of is the fuel line going to the fuel pump. I currently have a rubber fuel hose connecting the metal line from the tank with a short line from the fuel pump.

5. I searched for some info on an electric choke in case I needed to do that to solve my problem with the heat tube but didn’t find any specifics other than you might have to modify one to work in the opposite direction. Any pointers to specific posts? I FOUND A YOUTUBE VIDEO ON HOW TO INSTALL ELECTRIC CHOKE TO HOLLY 4000 (LOOKS EASY AND STRAIGHTFORWARD) If I go this route, do I plug both holes for the long heat tube?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0394C07E-FC90-4FEA-A221-85CC5DFBCDFB.jpg (49.7 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 29360E1A-3A85-4C1B-831C-73A69DA81FD1.jpg (47.5 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg DFCEAA2F-5577-4614-AFBF-E6A1BAB602C6.jpg (48.2 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by zuburg; 11-29-2020 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

The tube running inside the manifold MUST be continuous and without flaws (corrosion, holes, etc). If the tube is compromised, the surrounding vacuum will suck vacuum through any hole in the tube and negate the purpose (which is to transfer heat from the intake heat-riser passage up to the auto-choke spring housing).

That BOLT inserted at the end of the tube on that side of the intake may have damaged the inside of the tube such that the new brass fitting cannot be fitted tightly into the tube anymore. If they force-threaded or tapped threads into that tube for the bolt, I would be concerned, but if you can get the brass fitting fitted tightly into the tube, there might only be a very small leak (of heat) out the end of the thread, which might be okay. The main thing is, the brass fitting must fit tight in the tube and not fall out.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Tell ya what! If you cant get the choke side of that tube to work out for you, you can keep the other side hooked up and put that bolt back in the tube on the choke side (but get rid of that star-washer on the bolt and replace with a flat-washer). Snug up the bolt so it wont fall out, it doesn't need any torque at all.
Now, get one of those accessory outboard style exhaust manifold mounted choke heat-tube/capture/clamp assemblies if you can find one. Clamp the capture housing to the exhaust manifold and route the copper tubing from the capture housing to the choke housing (bend tubing as required). Then hook up the fitting that clamps the copper tubing to the choke housing.
Note: those aftermarket choke heat tube assemblies are cheap garbage and get real ugly after a while with heavy rust. You may want to remove the capture housing from the copper tube and use Hi-heat primer, then a good quality hi-temperature exhaust manifold enamel (at least 1000 degrees) on both sides of the capture housing. Use a stainless steel worm-gear clamp to attach the assembly to the exhaust manifold. That way, you can re-use what you have and not need to take the intake manifold back off the heads, ruining your gaskets.
BTW, that is the wrong application for a star-washer on that plug-bolt. A star-washer is used to insure electrical continuity, but there may be a small air gap all around that washer (which you do not want). You want to hold the heat inside the tube.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

I think I will look at converting to an electric choke. I found a good video by Mike’s Carburetors that showed how to do it. It looks like the easiest solution. I’ve got some questions in to him but would appreciate your feedback.

I assume if I install the electric choke, I should plug both holes on the intake where the heat tube is? I could use those mushroom plugs I referenced above.

Also, should I plug the holes (at least one was a grommet, I assume they both have a grommet?) on the carb where the inlet and outlet tubes go? If so, what would be a good way to plug it?
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan View Post
The tube running inside the manifold MUST be continuous and without flaws (corrosion, holes, etc). If the tube is compromised, the surrounding vacuum will suck vacuum through any hole in the tube and negate the purpose (which is to transfer heat from the intake heat-riser passage up to the auto-choke spring housing). ...
There is no vacuum inside the large center crossover of the intake manifold, it's for exhaust, to heat the carburetor and a thin tube for the hot air choke setup of a T-Bird carburetor. See photos 2 and 3 in comment # 2 above.

zuburg
;
Questions:
1. When would you use the mushroom plug mentioned above?
> > The mushroom cap can be used in place of the air inlet tube on the drivers side. On a '56 that tube draws air in from inside the air cleaner / carburetor. The mushroom cap is NOT a plug, it is open on the flat side and is an air inlet fitting.
photo # 1


2. What would happen if you had the inlet tube connected but the outlet side plugged? Would it still run? Would the choke effectively not work? I live in NC, pretty moderate temps. The car started set up this way, even with all it’s other issues.

> > The choke would not have heated air to operate it. Carburetor vacuum draws clean air into the small crossover tube from the drivers side, it is heated inside the exhaust crossover of the intake manifold, then is drawn up thru the choke housing to heat the coiled spring and continues into the carburetor.

3. What would happen if I hooked up both the inlet and outlet tubes as normal, knowing the crossover tube does not hold pressure? Would I get some heat to help the choke?
> > Exhaust debris and corrosive fumes would clog the choke mechanism and also vent thru the tube on the drivers side into the carburetor.
The center passage of the intake manifold is an exhaust crossover. photo # 2
It heats the carburetor when the engine is cold. Exhaust is forced thru it by a heat riser valve on the back end of a T-Bird passenger side exhaust manifold. photo # 3
The heat riser valve is usually removed from cars that aren't 'daily drivers' during winter weather.


4. I have one new line with fittings that I have yet to install and am not sure what it is (last picture). The only thing I can think of is the fuel line going to the fuel pump. I currently have a rubber fuel hose connecting the metal line from the tank with a short line from the fuel pump.

5. I searched for some info on an electric choke in case I needed to do that to solve my problem with the heat tube but didn’t find any specifics other than you might have to modify one to work in the opposite direction. Any pointers to specific posts? I FOUND A YOUTUBE VIDEO ON HOW TO INSTALL ELECTRIC CHOKE TO HOLLY 4000 (LOOKS EASY AND STRAIGHTFORWARD) If I go this route, do I plug both holes for the long heat tube?
> > Yes, both small holes for the leaky thin tube will need to be plugged at their outside ends or exhaust will be blowing out of them.
An electric or manual choke may be the easiest solution at this point.
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg choke tube mushroom cap.jpg (73.0 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg intake - exhaust crossover c.jpg (43.2 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg heat riser valve 2.jpg (48.2 KB, 5 views)

Last edited by dmsfrr; 11-29-2020 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

I'm not so sure it would be a good idea to plug both ends if the heat riser tube inside the manifold. If you did, you would trap heat inside the tubing which most probably would cool faster than the surrounding cast iron intake manifold causing condensation to occur inside the tube. But I'm not an expert on this, so let more intelligent heads among us chime in.

Added: if the tube inside the manifold is known to have a hole in it, exhaust gases will get into the tube and blow out the ends, so by all means plug both ends if they are no longer used.

As far as the copper tubing connection to the bottom of the choke spring housing, I would remove the copper tube and screw the brass fitting back on the housing leaving the copper tube hole in the "cap" without plugging it, but again, lets hear from others more familiar with auto-choke conversions. The theory is, since now there is no need to hold heat inside the choke housing, it might not hurt to let it breath a little.

Last edited by Daves55Sedan; 11-29-2020 at 05:54 PM. Reason: added 2nd paragraph
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuburg View Post
. . . Good news: I can see the crossover tube. Bad news: it does not hold pressure when I blow through it while plugging the other end with my finger. 2nd picture shows the end of the old inlet tube that broke off trying to remove it from the brass elbow. I’m guessing the long tube looks similar or worse?. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan View Post
.... get one of those accessory outboard style exhaust manifold mounted choke heat-tube/capture/clamp assemblies if you can find one. Clamp the capture housing to the exhaust manifold and route the copper tubing from the capture housing to the choke housing (bend tubing as required). ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan View Post
I'm not so sure it would be a good idea to plug both ends if the heat riser tube inside the manifold. If you did, you would trap heat inside the tubing which most probably would cool faster than the surrounding cast iron intake manifold causing condensation to occur inside the tube. ...
Since the internal tube has already failed plugging both ends won't hurt it more & will keep exhaust from blowing out of the open holes.

There is an alternate passenger side exhaust manifold that has a hot air fitting for the choke built into it.
Much better looking than the aftermarket add-ons. B9AE-9430-... photos 1 thru 3.
They were Ford's solution to the thin tube bad idea.
There was also a temporary solution of a screw in cap that functioned from carb vacuum drawing in clean outside air for the choke around its outer edge then out thru a tube in the center, up to the choke. Photos 4 & 5
Attached Images
File Type: jpg B9AE top, copy.jpg (49.6 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg B9 exh choke tube, arrow.jpg (35.4 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg B9AE bottom c.jpg (68.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg right 55-56 exh top.jpg (26.4 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg choke heat substitute c.jpg (39.1 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by dmsfrr; 11-29-2020 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:23 PM   #19
KULTULZ
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

This is a DEFLECTOR and was used on the 1957/59 FYB-



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Last edited by KULTULZ; 11-29-2020 at 07:16 PM. Reason: COVER MY BUTT
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:56 PM   #20
KULTULZ
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

If MIKE'S CARBS has an H4000 ELECT CHOKE KIT, please pass it on.

You can block off the intake manifold heat passage with a specialty pair of intake gaskets and/or defeat the heat riser valve, or you can do as you mentioned, just cap screw the tube cross-over. There will be no more heat than when the tube was working.

If removing the choke heated air inlet, you need to cap off the choke housing fitting so as not to allow the egine to draw unfiltered air (vacuum leak).
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