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Old 11-29-2020, 07:56 PM   #21
zuburg
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Well I do like the exhaust manifold idea better than the clamp-on type or removing the intake to do it right. It’s just that I am so close now, I can’t stomach tearing it all apart to remove the intake.

Assuming Mike’s has the electric choke I need, I think that would look best, be easier to do and also less expensive. Looks like a win-win-win to me.

That said, I’m still unsure what I should do to work with the electric choke.

1. I think I should plug both heat tube holes on the intake. Since the crossover tube appears to be very tight in the opening so I think I need something to go into the tube and plug it up. I’m not sure what I should use to do that. The bolt that the PO used was not a tight fit and could easily be pulled out.

2. I just figured out where the outlet tube goes into the bottom of the original choke (since I didn’t have one on the old engine I didn’t know where it actually went), so should I plug this since I will put the electric choke where the original choke is?

3. Should I plug the grommet on the driver side or put in one of the breather mushroom plugs? If plug the grommet, how best to do that (just put in a bolt that fits tight or maybe a shaft like a pin from a door hinge cut to size?)

This is all I can think of.

By the way, here is the link to the video by Mike’s Carburetors:
https://youtu.be/rkJkCWhip4c

Link to his web site:
https://www.carburetor-parts.com/
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

zuburg; ...
1. I think I should plug both heat tube holes on the intake. Since the crossover tube appears to be very tight in the opening so I think I need something to go into the tube and plug it up. I’m not sure what I should use to do that. The bolt that the PO used was not a tight fit and could easily be pulled out.
> > A bolt in each end that's a close fit, with a little high-temp gasket sealer on the threads might work.

2. I just figured out where the outlet tube goes into the bottom of the original choke (since I didn’t have one on the old engine I didn’t know where it actually went), so should I plug this since I will put the electric choke where the original choke is?
> > The carburetor is designed to draw a small amount of air in thru the choke cover, it shouldn't be a problem, or you could plug it. Not sure if the heating coil for an electric choke needs the moving air to keep it from overheating.

3. Should I plug the grommet on the driver side or put in one of the breather mushroom plugs? If plug the grommet, how best to do that (just put in a bolt that fits tight or maybe a shaft like a pin from a door hinge cut to size?)
> > Plugging the hole in the carb flange where the metal tube was will keep dirt from being drawn inside.
The 'mushroom plug' will pass air thru it, not close off the hole and may be the wrong size. Photos below

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg '56 carb, left front choke tube grommet, copy.jpg (42.6 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg choke tube mushroom cap.jpg (73.0 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by dmsfrr; 11-29-2020 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:45 PM   #23
zuburg
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Thanks for all your suggestions . Just a couple of questions for clarification:

> > The carburetor is designed to draw a small amount of air in thru the choke cover, it shouldn't be a problem, or you could plug it. Not sure if the heating coil for an electric choke needs the air moving to keep it from overheating.>>
Not sure what you mean by choke cover. Are you talking about the vertical tube that is right under the left part of the choke? I thought this must be where the outlet tube from the intake heat tube is inserted? Isn’t this where the heated air is blown into the choke? If this shouldn’t be completely plugged, maybe this is another place to use the mushroom plug to cut down on dirt entering? I’ll ask Mike’s what they think. He had another video on how to restore the choke. The one he was restoring was very dirty and frozen up.

> > Plugging the hole in the carb flange where the metal tube was will keep dirt from being sucked inside. The 'mushroom plug' will pass air thru it and not close off the hole. Photos below >> Are you suggesting plugging up the grommet hole or does the carb need some air? I thought when all the heat tubes were installed correctly, clean air was pulled from the carb through the grommet hole and through the heat crossover, then up to the choke?
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Old 11-29-2020, 11:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

"Not sure what you mean by choke cover."

The choke cover is a round black plastic housing over the coiled bi-metal spring that operates the choke linkage.
Heated air is drawn into the original choke mechanism of the carburetor by intake manifold vacuum. It heats the coiled spring which moves the choke linkage.
Photos 1 & 2

"Are you suggesting plugging up the grommet hole ...?"

I was commenting on your thought of removing the choke air tubes and plugging both ends of the long thin heat tube inside the intake manif. The resulting empty hole in the grommet at the left front of the carb should be closed. Photo 3


"I thought when all the heat tubes were installed correctly, clean air was pulled from the carb through the grommet hole and through the heat crossover, then up to the choke?"

That is correct, but since the long thin heat exchange tube inside the exhaust crossover has failed you can't use any of that original setup.
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TL choke cover, arrow.jpg (75.5 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg choke thermostat cc.jpg (76.9 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg '56 carb, left front choke tube grommet, copy.jpg (42.6 KB, 5 views)

Last edited by dmsfrr; 11-30-2020 at 01:06 AM. Reason: add photos
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Old 11-30-2020, 12:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

I apologize for coming back with so many questions. I think I am following you but want to be sure.


When you say "Heated air is drawn into the original choke mechanism of the carburetor by intake manifold vacuum" are you talking about drawing the heated air up through the outlet tube from the heat tube in the intake? My photo points to the thing I described as "vertical tube that is right under the left part of the choke". Is this where the outlet tube connected to the heat tube attaches to? It sounds like you suggest leaving this open in case it helps prevent the electric choke from overheating?


Here's the final plan as I understand it:
1. Plug both holes on the intake at each end of the heat tube.
2. Plug the grommet hole at the left front of the carb.
3. Leave the vertical tube under the choke open?
4. Install the electric choke.


This will all be pretty easy and not take that much time.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg choke.jpg (59.3 KB, 8 views)
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:03 AM   #26
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuburg View Post

I apologize for coming back with so many questions. I think I am following you but want to be sure.
No need to apologize.

Quote:
When you say "Heated air is drawn into the original choke mechanism of the carburetor by intake manifold vacuum" are you talking about drawing the heated air up through the outlet tube from the heat tube in the intake?

My photo points to the thing I described as "vertical tube that is right under the left part of the choke". Is this where the outlet tube connected to the heat tube attaches to? It sounds like you suggest leaving this open in case it helps prevent the electric choke from overheating?

Here's the final plan as I understand it:


1. Plug both holes on the intake at each end of the heat tube.
2. Plug the grommet hole at the left front of the carb.
3. Leave the vertical tube under the choke open?
4. Install the electric choke.

This will all be pretty easy and not take that much time.
Let's try this again. Fresh air is drawn into the left cross-over tube opening by engine vacuum, that vacuum originating within the choke housing. The air is heated within the cross-over tube and that heated air is drawn into the choke mechanism to supply heat to the choke thermostat (brown cap).

If the cross-over tube (9890) is not perforated with rust, it can be left alone as no exhaust gases from the intake manifold exhaust gas cross-over passage will enter the tube. If the cross-over tube is rusted, you will have to block the tube on either end as you will be leaking exhaust at the intake and outlet tube openings.

The air intake on the choke housing should be blocked off as to not permit a vacuum leak or ingesting unfiltered air. Depending on electric choke design, they may recommend a brass fitting containing a mesh filter to somewhat filter incoming air and to prevent the choke thermostat from over heating.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CHOKE.jpg (71.0 KB, 7 views)
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Last edited by KULTULZ; 11-30-2020 at 01:12 AM. Reason: ADD PHOTO
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Old 11-30-2020, 11:13 AM   #27
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

"The air intake on the choke housing should be blocked off as to not permit a vacuum leak or ingesting unfiltered air. Depending on electric choke design, they may recommend a brass fitting containing a mesh filter to somewhat filter incoming air and to prevent the choke thermostat from over heating."

Do not block off the threaded nipple on the choke housing where the original hot air tube from the manifold connected. You need the air flow thru the housing and bimetal spring to keep it from over heating. It isn't anymore of a vacuum leak than with the tube connected s original. It's a very slight vacuum leak that doesn't effect the carburetor function. If concerned about dirt being drawn in, you can put a cap on it with a fine brass screen.

Sal
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Old 11-30-2020, 06:28 PM   #28
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Quote:
Originally Posted by scicala View Post

Do not block off the threaded nipple on the choke housing where the original hot air tube from the manifold connected. You need the air flow thru the housing and bimetal spring to keep it from over heating. It isn't anymore of a vacuum leak than with the tube connected s original. It's a very slight vacuum leak that doesn't effect the carburetor function. If concerned about dirt being drawn in, you can put a cap on it with a fine brass screen.

Sal
Sorry, I disagree here. That vacuum draw is calibrated and is a part of the fuel trim/calibration. It will throw the mixture off (lean-out). As for cooling, how can it cool with inlet air @ hot exhaust temp?

You may be thinking of a later aftermarket 12V electric choke. That is where you would use the vacuum draw as a cooler (depending on supplier). Drawing unfiltered air @ 14:1 ratio is a lot of dirty air.
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:35 PM   #29
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

In my case, the hot air tube is not connected. That is the reason I知 converting to an electric choke. I am plugging both ends of the heat tube in the intake and going with the electric choke.

I bought an electric choke from Mike痴 Carburetors, and he advised plugging of the nipple going to the choke where the hot air tube normally connects. I will also plug the grommet on the front of the carb where the inlet tube goes.
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:46 PM   #30
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

"Sorry, I disagree here. That vacuum draw is calibrated and is a part of the fuel trim/calibration. It will throw the mixture off (lean-out). As for cooling, how can it cool with inlet air @ hot exhaust temp?"

"You may be thinking of a later aftermarket 12V electric choke. That is where you would use the vacuum draw as a cooler (depending on supplier). Drawing unfiltered air @ 14:1 ratio is a lot of dirty air."

I was talking about it with using an electric heated choke thermostat. I thought that's was the direction Zuburg was going with.
The very slight vacuum leak by leaving the choke unplugged has already been compensated for in the original calibration of the carburetor. The original factory system had the same slight vacuum leak.

Sal
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Old 11-30-2020, 09:31 PM   #31
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Quote:
Originally Posted by scicala View Post
If concerned about dirt being drawn in, you can put a cap on it with a fine brass screen. Sal
The idea I had of just re-using the original brass fitting on the choke housing with the hole in it for the copper tube would be sufficient, because that little 1/4" diameter hole would allow some heat to escape out the hole, but you could shove a little screen or something down inside that brass fitting before installing it on the choke housing. That would help keep dirt and small spiders from crawling inside the choke housing.
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Old 11-30-2020, 10:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

As I said in my previous post, there is no hot exhaust air going to the choke as the outlet tube normally going from the intake to the nipple on the bottom of the choke housing is not installed.



I guess to be more accurate, I plan to use an aftermarket electric thermostat (cap with spring) with the existing choke housing and levers. The supplier (Mike's Carburetors) suggested plugging the threaded nipple on the choke housing. I guess I will do my normal process of trying it both ways and see how it runs. I could also use a rubber cap used for plugging vacuum lines and poke a small hole in it. Would that allow enough vacuum draw?
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Old 12-01-2020, 01:57 AM   #33
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuburg View Post

I bought an electric choke from Mike痴 Carburetors...
OK. Was what he provided a complete kit or just an electric element thermostat cap? Can you show the manufacturer and PN? Was there an instruction sheet with the kit?

HOLLEY make a brass cap and screen to keep Mothra and midget Japanese submarines from entering the choke housing for the H4150/4160.

Unless the kit provided is an exact application for the H4000 is the question (not that I am questioning MIKES as it is a quality act).

If the crossover tube (9890 on the ILL), doesn't leak exh gas while the engine is running, there is no need to cap screw it off. If it begins to leak, then you can block it off or replace it.

Please keep the board updated

No disrespect intended Sal ...
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:02 AM   #34
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Post Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan View Post

The idea I had of just re-using the original brass fitting on the choke housing with the hole in it for the copper tube would be sufficient, because that little 1/4" diameter hole would allow some heat to escape out the hole, but you could shove a little screen or something down inside that brass fitting before installing it on the choke housing. That would help keep dirt and small spiders from crawling inside the choke housing.
The heated air is drawn into the choke housing by engine vacuum to heat the choke element. It is then ingested into the engine through the throttle body.
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Old 12-01-2020, 11:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Reply to Kultulz - I'll try to answer your questions. As you can tell from my earlier posts, I'm no expert but I will describe what I understand:


The reason I'm converting to an electric choke is I didn't learn about the heat tube that goes through the intake until after I assembled the entire engine including the carb, fuel lines, vacuum lines, and linkages. The reason was basically my fault for not researching how the 292 should have been assembled. I was just fixing the problems I found from the PO. Since the PO only had the automatic choke inlet tube attached to the grommet opening on the carb (and I didn't know what it was for) and not the outlet tube attached to the bottom of the choke, I only replaced the inlet tube. I didn't know about the outlet hole on the intake because the PO had a bolt inserted in the hole so I didn't know anything was supposed to go there.


I didn't want to take everything apart and remove the intake to try and remove the old heat tube and put in a new one. By the way, I determined the old heat tube was not usable by blowing through one side with my finger plugging the other side, and it didn't hold pressure.


So my solution plan is to delete the automatic choke by plugging both sides of the heat tube holes and convert to an electric choke.


I found a video on how to convert the original choke to an electric choke by Mike's Carburetors: https://youtu.be/rkJkCWhip4c
(it looks very easy, even for someone like me)


While they offer many different electric choke conversion kits, what they used in the video was just an electric thermostat that will work with the original choke. Here is a link to the thermostat used in the video: https://www.carburetor-parts.com/sea...keyword=th1034

Link to the general web site:
https://www.carburetor-parts.com/


So here's the summary of my plan:


1. Plug both holes on the intake where the long heat tube is and discard both the inlet and outlet tubes
2. Plug the grommet hole on the front driver's side of carb (where inlet tube goes)
3. Install electric thermostat on choke as shown in video
4. Mike's suggested plugging the threaded nipple under the choke housing. In the video, he said he has sold several of these with good results. Fall back plan if it doesn't seem to work well is to open it back up.


I would describe the above as a way to eliminate the stock automatic choke and replace with an electric choke. If I ever have to remove the intake in the future, I would put in a new heat tube and put it back to the original choke.

12/9/2020
Added some pictures of the original choke and the replacement electric choke referenced above. The install was very easy and straight forward.

Last edited by zuburg; 12-08-2020 at 12:47 AM. Reason: Added photos
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Old 12-01-2020, 11:57 AM   #36
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Default Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

"No disrespect intended Sal ... "


No disrespect taken KULTULZ. Just a mis-understanding. When I do an electric choke cap conversion on any Holley carb, I always use a brass cap with a fine screen in it to keep out mothra and all his friends. It's amazing how insects get inside of carbs.

Sal
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Old 12-01-2020, 12:07 PM   #37
KULTULZ
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Thumbs up Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Everything you are doing is fine. I understand not wanting to remove the intake. You can buy a brass cap to close that threaded inlet at HOME DEPOT plumbing aisle. HOLLEY used to offer one along with one that is open and has a wire mesh screen (to supply cooling air to some choke styles) to keep low flying condors out (it doesn't take much dirt to foul the choke mechanism).

FORD actually offered a service kit to supply heated air from the exhaust manifold to the choke in 1959 for the earlier Y. Guess they got tired of hearing customer complaints of cost to replace the cross-over tube.

Now Sal made a very good point on the vacuum inlet providing cooling air, but it has to be filtered. As what you have (only choke housing) is not a complete kit, you may have to play with it for awhile.

Any questions please ask the board freely as the modulator has no concern for spent bandwidth (meaning he hasn't banned me yet).
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File Type: jpg CARB - Choke Lit.jpg (61.8 KB, 5 views)
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Old 12-01-2020, 12:10 PM   #38
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Thumbs up Re: I知 getting close to trying to start my 1956 bird after a lonnnnng ordeall

Quote:
Originally Posted by scicala View Post


"No disrespect intended Sal ... "

No disrespect taken KULTULZ. Just a mis-understanding. When I do an electric choke cap conversion on any Holley carb, I always use a brass cap with a fine screen in it to keep out mothra and all his friends. It's amazing how insects get inside of carbs.

Sal
I fully understand your position and theory but you know how easily one will foul.
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