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Old 07-17-2015, 04:05 PM   #1
zuburg
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Default Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

I'm a new owner of a 1956 T-bird, unfortunately, it has a 235 Y-block with a bunch of Thunderbird bits bolted on instead of a 292. It has a Holley 4v carb. The current issue is a high idle of almost 1,000 rpms. I figured out how to lower it down to about 600 and it sounded pretty good at that speed. The issue is that when I put the automatic in gear (either drive or reverse) it dies at that speed. I had to increase the idle back up to 900 or more to keep it from dying.

I read that with an automatic, you may need to have someone help you by putting their foot on the brake and putting it in drive while you set the idle. I assume if I did that, once I put it back in neutral or park, the idle will be back up to 900?

I do plan to do a partial transmission rebuild to fix some serious leaking issues. Would this possibly help the situation?

Where should I start to address this issue?

thanks,

Last edited by zuburg; 07-17-2015 at 04:07 PM. Reason: Forgot to include another bit of info
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Old 07-17-2015, 04:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Have you tried to adjust the idle mixture screws when its warm for best idle quality (highest vacuum or smoothness at idle) when in drive ? Then lower the speed and re-adjust mixture ? Or have you been just turning the speed screw ?

Sal
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Old 07-17-2015, 04:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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Originally Posted by scicala View Post
Have you tried to adjust the idle mixture screws when its warm for best idle quality (highest vacuum or smoothness at idle) when in drive ? Then lower the speed and re-adjust mixture ? Or have you been just turning the speed screw ?

Sal
Sal,
What would a good idle vacuum be? About 20? I haven't had a gauge on one recently enough to remember.
Thanks.
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Old 07-17-2015, 07:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

"Sal,
What would a good idle vacuum be? About 20? I haven't had a gauge on one recently enough to remember.
Thanks."



Hi dmsfrr,

It will vary from engine to engine, but on a stock Y-Block in good condition I would expect to see from 17" to almost 20" of vacuum. I recently worked on a '54 Mercury 256 that was just rebuilt and good running that only had 17.5". I think the camshaft differences from year to year may account for the variation. Hard to say.

Sal
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

235 y block thats a new one anyway as others said a vacuum or carb problem.unless some fool put in a big cam.
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrell View Post
235 y block thats a new one anyway as others said a vacuum or carb problem.unless some fool put in a big cam.
235 is a typo, it's a '54 239.

I heard somewhere(?) that the '55 & newer y-block intake manifolds don't always seal well when up against '54 heads. So checking for vacuum leaks is a good idea.
.

Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-28-2016 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Thanks to all. Yep, it's a 239, I hate getting old. Since it seemed to be running pretty good, I was avoiding the idle mixture screws. Plus I didn't have a vacuum gauge. I will try to borrow one from a buddy and check them out.
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

some thing wrong here, t bird never had a 239 engine, first engine in 1955 was a 292, same with the 1956, and idle speed is 475, if you need more rpm to keep it from dying when put in gear I would suspect the torque converter, something is wrong with it, its not free wheeling, I think its locking up,
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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some thing wrong here, t bird never had a 239 engine, first engine in 1955 was a 292, same with the 1956, and idle speed is 475, if you need more rpm to keep it from dying when put in gear I would suspect the torque converter, something is wrong with it, its not free wheeling, I think its locking up,
You are correct about the engine sizes. Here's a link to the 2nd half of his original post/thread. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...=172555&page=2

My '55 Bird, also found to have a '54 engine, had similar dying in gear problems. It had several vacuum leaks along with carb & dist problems and the trans shop replaced the free-wheel mechanism in the torque converter.

.

Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-24-2015 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 07-18-2015, 12:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

What is the code on your intake manifold? If it's 9425-B on 239 heads you probably have a vacuum leak.
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Old 07-18-2015, 08:12 AM   #11
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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What is the code on your intake manifold? If it's 9425-B on 239 heads you probably have a vacuum leak.
I think zuburg found the number ECZ-9425-A on his intake manifold, at this link, when he was looking for the block casting number....
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showpo...0&postcount=17


.
.

Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-28-2016 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 07-18-2015, 01:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

OK, I went ahead and ordered an inexpensive vacuum/pressure gauge, should be in next week. I started looking at where to connect the vacuum gauge and I believe all my vacuum lines are metal with fittings. I'm attaching a couple of pictures to confirm and ask where I should connect the vacuum gauge. I have marked 5 lines and listed what I assume they are below:
1 - fitting coming off back of carb, I assume this is a vacuum fitting that splits off to several components

2 - This is the largest line and goes to the power brake component (booster?)

3 - This line goes down to the fuel pump

4 - You can see clearly that this goes to the round thing next to the distributor (is this the vacuum for the vacuum advance?)

5 - This line goes from the round thing next to the distributor and connects to a fitting on the front of the carb (shown in picture 2). Is this a timed vacuum port?

What is the recommended connection point for the vacuum gauge to check the mixture screws? I'm guessing I could disconnect the line going to the power brake? If so, do I need a fitting to connect the vacuum gauge? Or can I just put the plastic tapered end that comes with the gauge kit in the opening?
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File Type: jpg vacuum line-2.jpg (135.2 KB, 34 views)
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Old 07-18-2015, 03:42 PM   #13
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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Originally Posted by zuburg View Post
What is the recommended connection point for the vacuum gauge to check the mixture screws? I'm guessing I could disconnect the line going to the power brake? If so, do I need a fitting to connect the vacuum gauge?
Or can I just put the plastic tapered end that comes with the gauge kit in the opening?
Disconnect the rubber line to the brake booster (in yellow circle) and temporarily slide a short snug fitting rubber hose over that metal tube leading to the back of the carb. Then insert the tapered fitting for the vacuum gauge in the other end of that short temporary tube. (if the brake booster is leaking this disconnects it, but you can check it separately)

Or...
You could connect the vacuum gauge to the front end of line #3 where it slips onto the top of the fuel pump. But this won't let you know if the fuel pump booster diaphragm for the windshield wipers, or the wiper motor itself, is leaking.
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Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-24-2015 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 07-18-2015, 06:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Thanks, dmsfrr, This should be an adventure. I'm thinking your idea of a problem with the torque converter makes sense. I will have that checked out when I get the transmission rebuilt, my number one priority. I'm still waiting for the state of NC to inspect my vehicle so I can get it registered. That is scheduled for Tuesday.
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

WestCoast was the one who first mentioned the free-wheel / torque converter and reminded me of the similar problem in mine. Thank you.

After you connect the vacuum gauge in one of the 2 positions (above) for your carb adjusting take note of your final vacuum pressure. Then re-connect and swap the vac gauge to the other position. The vacuum reading from both should be the same, if the parts that were temporarily disconnected are in good internal condition.
If you don't get readings above 16"/17" (thanks Sal) you've probably got leaks to look for.
Keeping my fingers crossed.

Is your in-dash tach working?


.

Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-24-2015 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 07-19-2015, 11:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Thanks, yes the in dash tach is working. I was thinking of lowering the idle back down to normal with the car in park to check the vacuum in different places to check for vacuum leaks. Does that sound reasonable? Once I get the torque converter sorted out then I can set the idle in drive.
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Old 07-19-2015, 02:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

You might check idle richness, if it is lean you'll experience what you are describing & have to increase rpm to get it to idle. Once you do get it to idle at 450rpm the torque converter will act right, it is acting stupid because the idle is high enough so it thinks you want to go somewhere.
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Old 07-19-2015, 07:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

So should I adjust the mixture screws using the vacuum gauge with it in park? Then put it in drive to adjust the idle? Or does it have to be in drive when I adjust the mixture screws? I will be very happy if that is all is wrong, and the torque converter is OK.
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Old 07-19-2015, 07:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

You should get the mixture screws close to correct in park then put in drive (with emergency brake on, or someone else in the car), then lower the speed screw (by the throttle lever) until you get the RPM you want, then adjust the mixture screws again with the vacuum gage. Speed may go up again after that a little bit, so you may have to go back and forth.

Sal
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Old 07-20-2015, 07:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

If the car has a working tachometer - then the distributor has to have been out of a 55 /56/57 'bird. A 239 is a "tang drive" motor - or it would have to have had a later oil pump stuck in there........ If the distributor is from the 55 / 56 models, then it would be a Load-O-Matic and the aforementioned Holley carb would not provide the necessary source vacuum to run the distributor's advance system. It would also need an adaptor to fit on a early four barrel manifold. I'm not trying to poop on the parade - but some stuff needs sorted out here......

Is there a chance this is a 272? - distributors would then mate and drive the oil pump. And there are "A" 4bbl manifolds on many 272's. The fitting of the later style Holley - with a Load-O-Matic is usually a recipe for trouble - so is it the later version or the T-pot?

Last edited by GREENBIRD56; 07-20-2015 at 07:35 PM. Reason: still thinking............
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Old 07-20-2015, 08:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Greenbird brings up an interesting point about the distributor. Might be worth pulling it and check the gear. The 239 used a different tooth count than the 272 and up. That might tell you if there was a later cam, as the cam gear drives this. Next question, I assume you have the "spacer" on the water pump, and that means you have the 272 up water pump. The 239 water pump is smaller IIRC. I know your earlier post said you have a 239 casting number on the block. I don't recall if you found the head castings # or not. I don't know what if anything you can do to fit later internals into the 239 block, but someone here will. Might be worth pulling the dist and pan and having a look.

While I'm sure this is depressing, look at the bright side. When I bought my 55, I caught that the right rear quarter had been replaced with a 56 panel. The door latch had a spacer plate. What I didn't catch was that it was welded on a 1/4" low at the taillight. It's a lot easier to change the motor and transfer the bird parts than it is to tear a quarter panel off.
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Old 07-20-2015, 08:35 PM   #22
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

its a waste of time.with the info he has given theres no hope.
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Old 07-20-2015, 09:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

dareell,

With all due respect, he's got more info from other post. The car runs. There's always hope, and a solution.
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:27 PM   #24
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

The car of course, was originally built with a 292. Would most of the parts from the 292, including those you have mentioned bolt onto the 239? I did find the block stamp that definitely indicated it was a 239. The intake manifold is stamped "ECZ 9425 A", and the carb had a tag under one of the top 4 screws that showed "B6A-9510-Q". I couldn't find the 9510-Q on internet searches, but found 9510-H and 9510-L that looked very much like mine. I think that makes it a tea pot 4v. I'll attach a couple of pictures showing the carb and distributor in case it helps.
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File Type: jpg dist-1_sm.jpg (114.2 KB, 21 views)
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Old 07-21-2015, 07:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Based on the pictures of the fuel bowl cover, the carburetor is a 1956 model. Based on the tag number, it's a 1956 Ford/Mercury 292 carb and not a Thunderbird carb. Check out the List number stamped on the back flange of the carb and see if it is '1162'. If it is, then the tag number is correct.

At this point it would be helpful to know the casting numbers on the heads. The 239 heads did have the smaller ports and as such, there is the potential for vacuum leaks at the intake port with the later model manifolds. Are your spark plugs 14mm or 18mm. That would be another clue as to whether the heads are from a 239 or 256 engine.
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Old 07-21-2015, 11:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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zuburg, just FYI: (and why it matters) the '55 & '56 carburetors and distributors aren't interchangeable.
'55 uses a single vacuum line between the the carb & dist and '56 uses a double line. IIRC the dist vacuum port pressures are not the same between '55 & '56 carbs.
The round vacuum advance unit on the '55 dists is a single can and the '56 uses a double can. The internal springs are also different.

Since it seems like you have a '56 carb & a '56 dist you may have dodged a big problem there, even tho it may not be a 'T-Bird correct' carb.

Are there any part numbers or a # tag on your distributor?
When you look at the lower portion of your dist. housing does it have the part circled in yellow?
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Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-21-2015 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 07-21-2015, 01:43 PM   #27
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Looking at the pictures - that's a '56 style distributor with two vacuum lines. And if the tachometer works - it probably has the drive cable too. This is all most likely "top end" stuff from the original car. It would take a VERY knowledgeable mechanic to make a 239 work with that distributor in my opinion. Early in one of the threads it says the engine is a later version - my money says 272 block at least. Oil pump and waterpump parts say so to me.

Ted recently gave some pretty good advice about T-pot carbs to another fellow - first use lots of carb cleaner and compressed air and clean/blow out the orifices at the top center. This thing ran before - needs a tune-up most likely. Make sure the points are set and the initial timing is correct at idle. The engines actually like 10º better than the 5º-6º on the spec sheet.

Parts for the "rock" style fuel filter are advertised at a bunch of T-bird aftermarket suppliers.
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Old 07-21-2015, 03:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Incidentally - this is a nice looking little car - and in better body shape than many I've seen. Don't get too overwhelmed by "originality" - this vehicle is nearly 60 years old and a lot of things happen in that period of time. You are allowed so few changes to a car for it to be judged "original" - most just can't hack it unless worked over very carefully by an expert restoration outfit. I eventually found that making mine that perfect would cost much more than it was worth - and thereafter, I set about making it enjoyable. For me - it was the right decision - I wanted a driver car, not a trailer queen. If you don't have old fashioned tune-up tools - get some - a vacuum gauge, a timing light and some feeler gauges is a start. I also advocate a "dwell / tachometer", continuity tester light, and some sort of thermometer. If you don't learn to take care of some simple stuff yourself - its going to be very expensive.
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Old 07-21-2015, 04:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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Originally Posted by GREENBIRD56 View Post
Incidentally - this is a nice looking little car - and in better body shape than many I've seen. Don't get too overwhelmed by "originality" - ......
I agree completely, and making it 'original' is virtually impossible without unlimited budget & time. My concern with identifying the misc parts on zuburg's engine is not for them to be 'correct' but so potential problems (and solutions) can be worked out ahead of time.
Example: His block is a '54 EBU 239 that would have used a flat/slot drive for the oil pump & dist. The late 256's(?) 272's and newer used a hex drive. If some internal parts were changed (correctly) a '56 T-Bird distributor could be on the engine.
OR,
A '56 dbl vac advance canister might have been put on the older '54 dist. and the dash tach changed to an electric one.
'IF' the timing advance works right that's fine, but if it doesn't then you know why.

.

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Old 07-21-2015, 06:49 PM   #30
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

I'm going to assume at this point the car has been running before. It has the necessary road grime to imply it has been run - not freshly assembled and parked.
The mechanical tachometer cable appears twice in the available pictures - but seems to just droop over the kickdown linkage behind the D.S. cylinder head (or not?). There are a pair of extraneous wire terminals attached to the coil - which would allow for an electric tachometer to function. It hasn't been mentioned if the tach was in the dash position or otherwise. That would solve that one.

I'm not certain if you can put the double can advance set-up on an earlier distributor. The engine in my '56 was a 312 four barrel - with auto trans and one of these distributors. One of the chambers of the advance simply "offset" the other - added an amount of advance when the engine wasn't under load (high manifold vacuum). The other provided "venturi" vacuum to approximate engine speed - and therefore govern the usual advance with increasing RPM. It doesn't work very well or reliably either one - and Ford changed to a different system in 1957.

At any rate - if they are working, one of the vacuum tubes would be giving you a steadily increasing vacuum as rpm rises - and the other would behave as manifold vacuum, it would drop with an opening throttle.

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Old 07-21-2015, 08:59 PM   #31
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Man, you guys are amazing, I can hardly keep up with you.

I agree, my goal is to just get the old bird running decently, and hopefully somewhat reliably, to just enjoy driving it and maybe going to cruise-ins to let others enjoy it.

I'm starting to think that maybe instead of just detective work, it's beginning to turn into a treasure hunt. Here is some more info. to answer some of the earlier questions.
These may be somewhat in random order as I don't remember what order the questions were.

The only stamp I saw on the back flange of the carb was "ECZ 9510" (there might have been more, but I couldn't see what might have been after the 9510.

This may be the good news. I truly thought the spark plugs would be the smaller ones since the block clearly showed it was a 239. I had two spark plug sockets from forever ago, and the larger one, marked 13/16 worked. The plug was an Autolite 437.

My heads have the large freeze plugs on the ends. Maybe they came from the same 1956 Ford/Mercury 292 that the carb came from?

I couldn't see to find a number on the distributor, too much stuff in the way.

I think the tach could very well be an electric one. While it is in the original position, it is not the original tach. It is an Autogage by Auto Meter.

Eventually, we will find out what all I have and I can document it for future parts hunts and maybe making some changes to improve the running and reliability.

The guy I bought it from thought it was a 292 and was told it was a 292 when he bought it. Now I know why he thought it was.
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Old 07-22-2015, 12:35 AM   #32
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

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Originally Posted by TedEaton View Post
At this point it would be helpful to know the casting numbers on the heads. The 239 heads did have the smaller ports and as such, there is the potential for vacuum leaks at the intake port with the later model manifolds. Are your spark plugs 14mm or 18mm? That would be another clue as to whether the heads are from a 239 or 256 engine.
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I had two spark plug sockets from forever ago, and the larger one, marked 13/16 worked. The plug was an Autolite 437.
My heads have the large freeze plugs on the ends. Maybe they came from the same 1956 Ford/Mercury 292 that the carb came from?
Heads from '54 to early '56 have the freeze plugs in the ends.

The Autolite #437 is a 14mm thread spark plug that has a metal gasket seal.
http://www.autolitecatalog.com/PartDetail.aspx?b=A&pn=437

Starting with '55 Fords and for a '56 Thunderbird 292 Autolite lists an 18mm thread spark plug with a tapered seat/seal.
http://www.autolitecatalog.com/PartD...aspx?b=A&pn=46
They both use a 13/16 socket.

With the smaller thread spark plug hole, the heads you have are the '54 style (239/256) heads.
(I've had this 'spark plug surprise' too.)
.
.

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Old 07-22-2015, 03:57 AM   #33
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

I cant help but it sure would be nice if someone could throuw in a "like" button on this pages. Info given here is truly precious.
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:18 PM   #34
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I cant help but it sure would be nice if someone could throuw in a "like" button on this pages. Info given here is truly precious.
At the top of the very first post, in the dark red bar, is a "Rate Thread" button. You can give a thread one to five stars.
It seems most folks either don't use it or don't know it's there.
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Old 07-24-2015, 03:18 PM   #35
Hot Rod Reverend
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Default Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block

Ok, let's add some more information and answer the question as to why a 239 could work. Most 239's were EBU engines. However, Ford used 239's also in their 1955 Trucks. Some have even been found in 1956 trucks though this is rare. The 55 Ford truck had a 239 that was different from the EBU in these aspects... 1. smaller camshaft journals (a 272, 292, or a 312 cam would fit) and 2. Hex shaft distributor and oil pump with the same number of teeth on the distributor/cam to match later 272's and up.
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