Flywheel alignment

[kbrandt]

I'm relatively new to Model A's. I bought my '30 Tudor about five years ago. I drove it around for about six months before it lost a timing gear. In the course of repairing that, one of the local experts found cracks in the block in bad places so I gave up on that engine.

I replaced it with an engine I bought off of Craigs list. Supposedly the seller had had it rebuilt 10+ years ago as the spare for his coupe. He was getting out of the hobby and selling the car too. I don't have 100% confidence in the engine, but haven't seen anything to indicate he wasn't telling the truth.

After dragging my feet for years, I got the car running again last month. I've driven it around the neighborhood half a dozen times and it's doing okay. The one thing I've noticed is it shakes much more than the previous engine did.

After reading the Les Andrews book more thoroughly, I realized that I skipped aligning the flywheel. Opps...

So my question is what should I do next? Can I drive it without risking trashing the bearings? I'd kind of like to enjoy the car for a little while before taking it apart again.

As for fixing it, is it better to pull the engine again, or can I do it easily enough by pulling the transmission? Given the choice, I'd rather pull the transmission as that would give me a chance to clean it up and maybe change some seals and gaskets.

[J Franklin]

Maybe start with some easy checks. You can check the runout if the flywheel after removing the starter. Usually the symptom of a miss aligned flywheel is clutch chatter or troubles. If the flywheel is out of balance, that could cause some shaking. Maybe your old engine was built better and to closer tolerances. Did you make bearing and valve adjustments on the newer engine?

[Mulletwagon]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Maybe start with some easy checks. You can check the runout if the flywheel after removing the starter. Usually the symptom of a miss aligned flywheel is clutch chatter or troubles. If the flywheel is out of balance, that could cause some shaking. Maybe your old engine was built better and to closer tolerances. Did you make bearing and valve adjustments on the newer engine?

X2 on checking valve lash. My 31 idled rough which no amount of carb adjusting would help. Problem was caused by one lifter with too little clearance. Easy enough to check and adjust (if you have adjustable lifters).

[Patrick L.]

When does it shake ? Sitting still at idle or higher engine speed ? Or running down the road ?

Does the clutch chatter ?

If it does shake sitting still, it might help to rotate the flywheel 180. Thats a lot of work. If doing that then check the flywheel for runout and set the pressure plate fingers.

[kbrandt]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Maybe start with some easy checks. You can check the runout if the flywheel after removing the starter. Usually the symptom of a miss aligned flywheel is clutch chatter or troubles. If the flywheel is out of balance, that could cause some shaking. Maybe your old engine was built better and to closer tolerances. Did you make bearing and valve adjustments on the newer engine?

That's a good idea to measure the flywheel runout through the starter opening. I'll need to get a better dial indicator to do that.

I didn't make any valve or bearing adjustments on the new engine.

[kbrandt]

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Originally Posted by Patrick L.

When does it shake ? Sitting still at idle or higher engine speed ? Or running down the road ?

Does the clutch chatter ?

If it does shake sitting still, it might help to rotate the flywheel 180. Thats a lot of work. If doing that then check the flywheel for runout and set the pressure plate fingers.

It shakes at all RPMs. It gets more intense as RPMs increase.

The clutch chatters a little but it's not bad. I didn't adjust the clutch fingers until after the engine was installed in the car so I don't think I did that precise a job.

[kbrandt]

Originally Posted by Mulletwagon

X2 on checking valve lash. My 31 idled rough which no amount of carb adjusting would help. Problem was caused by one lifter with too little clearance. Easy enough to check and adjust (if you have adjustable lifters).

It does have adjustable lifters. Maybe I'll try that before resorting to pulling either the engine or transmission.

[Gene F]

Guys, you don't think it has a loose rod cap do ya? In any event, I'd say that engine is going to have to come out, to be checked over. Don't let someone tell you rebuild, just over one thing. Do yourself a favor and do a compression check before removal. I bet the flywheel is out of balance, and the crankshaft likely has no counterweights.

[old ugly]

do as many checks and diagnosis with the engine in the car and running. you can test things.
an easy way to see if it is running on all cylinders is to start it and make it run as good as possible. then at an idle short out one spark plug at a time and see if it changes the way it runs.

if it were i, and if the flywheel and bell housing need aligning i would pull the engine. but only once i have done as much testing and diagnosis as i can.

[GRutter]

Flywheel runout ??? Not likely unless the crank flange was out. The runout to be tested should be to insure that the flywheel housing has been shimmed to be in alignment with the crank flange to insure that the clutch and transmission main shaft are not at an angle to each other. You are not going to determine that by measuring the flywheel thru the starter hole. Any deviation that you may read thru the starter hole is likely crankshaft end play.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by kbrandt

It shakes at all RPMs. It gets more intense as RPMs increase.

The clutch chatters a little but it's not bad. I didn't adjust the clutch fingers until after the engine was installed in the car so I don't think I did that precise a job.

If the clutch chatter isn't bad then the housing alignment probably isn't too bad. I've spent hours sitting under these monsters shimming and filing to try and get them within the .006".

If the flywheel is off the engine its easier to adjust the fingers. I use a turned piece of round stock [ 5/8" or 3/4" whichever you prefer ] to set the height. I find that much easier.

[kbrandt]

It looks like I have a dead cylinder. Removing the #1 wire didn't change idle at all, where the other three had pronounced changes. There is a spark, but no combustion.

Additionally, I checked the plugs and the #1 doesn't look like it's been burning any fuel. See attached picture. #1 is the right most plug.

I'm going to have to order an adapter in order to do a compression check. In the mean time, I was thinking of checking the valve clearance. Is there something else I should check?

[old ugly]

you can approximate the compression with your thumb.
remove all the plugs
have someone turn the engine over with the crank first and see, then with the starter. with your thumb over one hole at a time and see if they are all about the same.

sorry about the bad english but youll get it

[Patrick L.]

One of the simple hand held compression gauges will work fine. They just fit over the hole.

[gdmn852]

Hello, does plug number one fire in another cylinder? That would check if plug is either good or bad . If compression is low on one may be valve hang up if rebuilt rings should be good. Let us know what you find out.

[gdmn852]

Also if plug works in another cylinder, would indicate a problem with distributor ,like a bad cap .If you can borrow a known good distributor, that would rule out electrical issue.

[kbrandt]

Originally Posted by gdmn852

Hello, does plug number one fire in another cylinder? That would check if plug is either good or bad . If compression is low on one may be valve hang up if rebuilt rings should be good. Let us know what you find out.

When I pulled the plugs for that picture, I purposely put them back in other cylinders. Then I pulled #1 wire while running and got zero change. The problem didn't follow the spark plug, so I'm assuming it's good.

[kbrandt]

Originally Posted by gdmn852

Also if plug works in another cylinder, would indicate a problem with distributor ,like a bad cap .If you can borrow a known good distributor, that would rule out electrical issue.

The distributor cap, coil wire, coil, points and condenser are all new. I've ordered a new distributor body, as that's the only old electrical part remaining. Besides, it never hurts to have spares.

[Kurt in NJ]

you should be able to "hear" lack of compression when using starter with ignition off ---or feel it using the hand crank.
You could also look down the spark plug hole and watch the valves move ,a stuck one won't go will just stay up

[Patrick L.]

I like the way these threads go. I get a kick out of all the twists and turns.

[gdmn852]

Yes, you are right starting out on flywheel balance,now on to valve train.Probably the next step would be to take off valve cover and drain tube,and see if valves are hung up on cylinder one and check valve lash on all. From reading past posts doesn’t seem to unusual for valves to stick on a engine that hasn’t run for awhile.

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I like the way these threads go. I get a kick out of all the twists and turns.

I always try to urge detection and measurement first while some just can't wait to urge an engineectomy first.

[kbrandt]

So now, I'm confused. I checked the valve adjustements and they ranged from 0.013"-0.015". See the attachment for specific cylinders.

I did a compression check and got 1 : 50, 2 : 50, 3 : 50, 4 : 48. Those are maybe a little lower than I expected but it could be my 30 year old guage. They're nice and consistent.

I also checked the temperatures at the top of the exhaust manifold with an IR temp guage.
1: 249F
2: 349F
3: 363F
4: 325F
This was after a 5 minute drive around the neighborhood.

I also got a new distributor body from Snyders. It doesn't appear to have helped.

[katy]

Originally Posted by kbrandt

So now, I'm confused. I checked the valve adjustements and they ranged from 0.013"-0.015". See the attachment for specific cylinders.

I did a compression check and got 1 : 50, 2 : 50, 3 : 50, 4 : 48. Those are maybe a little lower than I expected but it could be my 30 year old guage. They're nice and consistent.

I also checked the temperatures at the top of the exhaust manifold with an IR temp guage.
1: 249F
2: 349F
3: 363F
4: 325F
This was after a 5 minute drive around the neighborhood.

I also got a new distributor body from Snyders. It doesn't appear to have helped.

That all sounds good.
In post #12 you said "Removing the #1 wire didn't change idle at all". Does the car have spark plug wires or bronze straps?
If it has wires, that may be your problem.

[gdmn852]

I wonder why cylinder 1 is 100 degrees cooler than the rest?Sounds if 1 still isn’t working correctly ? If valves are working correctly, and one cylinder is not firing,electrical? If engine was rebuilt camshaft should be good. I had a 1980 GMC that had soft cam from factory, kept losing power, finally tracked it down to that. But wouldn’t think that would be your problem. Please keep us posted. Compression looks about even valves must be closing.

[old ugly]

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yeah that's weird!
can you see in through the spark plug hole and see if the intake valve is opening all the way?
just a thought. if they are closing all the way it still may build compression but if they don't open all the way then that may be a problem????
maybe gdmn852's idea is what happened

if it is still able to run here is something that may work,
start it up
take off one plug wire at time and see if it will run on 1 cylinder. work your way towards #1 cyl.
if it will run on one cylinder and if that cylinder is #1 then maybe that cylinder is actually working properly

i am just guessing at ideas now i really don't know what's going on with it.

[kbrandt]

Originally Posted by katy

That all sounds good.
In post #12 you said "Removing the #1 wire didn't change idle at all". Does the car have spark plug wires or bronze straps?
If it has wires, that may be your problem.

It has straps, not wires. I knocked the strap off the distributor post with a long screwdriver. It's still doing the same thing.

[old ugly]

take all the plugs out, place the #1 plug on the head, run a wire to it. any kind of copper wire. now have someone turn on the ignition and crank it over on the starter. watch that plug for consistent spark.
see what it does.
you can move that wire to a different cyl. to make sure it works, check.
no spark you have an ignition problem

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by kbrandt

I also got a new distributor body from Snyders. It doesn't appear to have helped.

maybe the points are not breaking on that #1 distributor cam lobe.
you can crank the engine over and watch the points movement to make sure.

do you have modern points or original style? (i hate modern points)

[Gene F]

Put the old cap back on and see if it goes away. Never assume that every new part these days is a good part. Cap is cheap and easy

[kbrandt]

So, I've had some progress. I decided to check for vacuum leaks by spraying carb cleaner . It was leaking big time at the manifold to block joints. I had used brass nuts to hold on the manifold. One of them had stripped and none of them were all that tight. I replaced them with steel ones and progressively tightened them down to 40 ft-lbs. That fixed the vacuum leak.

About this time, I noticed the crank pulley had broken. After waiting for some parts and changing that out, I was able to drive it around today. It feels like it's running on 4 cylinders again. It's definitely improved over what it was, but it's still vibrating more than I remember.

At this point, I'm putting it on my ToDo list to pull the transmission and align the flywheel housing and check the flywheel runout.

I appreciat the help. I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future.