Gas 10% ethanol

[50fordcoupeman]

Originally Posted by tubman

All I can add is what I have experienced. While the alcohol gas may be OK for short term storage, for anything longer, it's a chance I don't want to take. A few years ago I decided to resurrect a couple of my vehicles that had been sitting for 3 years. My '68 Corvette had been run exclusively on non-oxygenated (no alcohol) gas. I primed the carburetor, and it fired right up and purred like a kitten. My Yamaha snowmobile on the other hand, had been run on whatever was available on the trail, and I'm sure the last couple of tanks through it were corn gas. It would not start, and I had to take it completely apart and clean and reassemble the carburetors (all four of them).

I know it's a bit of an "apples and oranges" comparison, but I think it's indicative of what can happen. I know I'll never put a vehicle in storage for any length of time with a tank full of alcohol gas. I will add that I have never had a problem running the stuff, but I wouldn't take a chance on long term storage.

X2. I have had the same experiences with my storage engines, esp my boat which has a 4 cylinder Chev engine. Also true with my yard machines. With the non eth gas they all fire right up the next season..........corn gas I wonder if they will ever start up and sometimes I have rebuild the carbs. No corn gas for me in stored engines!!

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by mrtexas

Ethanol is not distilled with electricity, too expensive.

I was just adding that in for effect. A lot of electricity is used however for transfer pumps during the wet milling process and movement of wash to the column. There is may be a chilling process prior to adding the yeast and for the condensers. The reboilers would be using fuel oil or natural gas but may need air pumps to provide hotter combustion. Niether of those fuels are renewable. Coal gasification would likely be too expensive too but eventually the gas and fuel oil will become more expensive as supplies dwindle.

In any case it takes a lot of energy to run those distillation columns. They should consider setting up with electrical power plants to use there left over steam as long as it is still within the temperature needs of the columns. I hear that they use left over steam from nuclear power plants that way up in Canada.

When I was a kid, there was a large corporate farm in southwest Kansas that produced sugar beets to refine for sugar. The distillers should think about going back to that. It would be a lot better source of sugar than corn is. It's ironic though that the sugar company went out of business and the local electric company purchased and repurposed the old sugar processing plant into a power generator plant for the local community. That was back when they were still using natural gas. Now days they have a great big coal fired plant that does the job. They were worried about running out of gas in the 5th largest gas field in the United States at the time (Hugoton Field) even back in the 70s. What would be ironic is if they mated a distillery for ethanol using sugar beets to that power plant. It already has the steam turbine technology with plenty of left over heat.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I was just adding that in for effect. A lot of electricity is used however for transfer pumps during the wet milling process and movement of wash to the column. There is may be a chilling process prior to adding the yeast and for the condensers. The reboilers would be using fuel oil or natural gas but may need air pumps to provide hotter combustion. Niether of those fuels are renewable. Coal gasification would likely be too expensive too but eventually the gas and fuel oil will become more expensive as supplies dwindle.

In any case it takes a lot of energy to run those distillation columns. They should consider setting up with electrical power plants to use there left over steam as long as it is still within the temperature needs of the columns. I hear that they use left over steam from nuclear power plants that way up in Canada.

When I was a kid, there was a large corporate farm in southwest Kansas that produced sugar beets to refine for sugar. The distillers should think about going back to that. It would be a lot better source of sugar than corn is. It's ironic though that the sugar company went out of business and the local electric company purchased and repurposed the old sugar processing plant into a power generator plant for the local community. That was back when they were still using natural gas. Now days they have a great big coal fired plant that does the job. They were worried about running out of gas in the 5th largest gas field in the United States at the time (Hugoton Field) even back in the 70s. What would be ironic is if they mated a distillery for ethanol using sugar beets to that power plant. It already has the steam turbine technology with plenty of left over heat.

Pumping costs in industrial plants are minimal. I am a Chemical Engineer and have calculated the economics of capital projects like reboilers, pumps, condensers, air coolers, up to complete new process units in an oil refinery. An oil refinery boils oil. An ethanol plant has the same stuff but boils water and ethanol.

"What would be ironic is if they mated a distillery for ethanol using sugar beets to that power plant."

Now you have an idea, a commercial condensing power plant produces lots of low temperature heat that is wasted. Ethanol plants use lots of low temperature heat.

Reboilers haven't used fuel oil for 40+ years if ever as natural gas is much cheaper.

[Paul Bennett]

Know that '10% Ethanol' is actually 10% MINIMUM. Tests here in Oregon have found pump gas at close to 20%

"However, the RFS mandate still requires oil and gas companies to blend increasing amounts of biofuels with gasoline each year through 2022"

[rotorwrench]

So far, It's not mandatory in most states so many of the additions of alcohol are more recommended in nature. When the change will come is if we have an embargo or another war situation where fuel becomes problematic to source. Right now, I don't think the USA would be sustainable on ethanol alone. There just isn't enough made to do much more than a percentage and 10 to 15% is likely all that is sustainable for the time being. The E85 thing kind of waned. I still own a flex fuel vehicle but E85 is not available here in Texas.

[Viv W]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

In Zimbabwe we have no choice, our gas is minimum 10% ethanol and the Govt wants to raise it to 20%. I use this gas for everyday use in my two old toyota's with no lead or other additives with no real problems, but can confirm it is nasty stuff in our very old cars.
I had a 56 MG that wasn't used for 2 years, the gas had eaten into the carb float bowls about a 1/16inch and there was equivalent to silver aluminum paint in the float bowls, the gas tank was very basly rusted and the bottom had thick tar like residue in the bottom. The float and sender unit inside the gas tank were trashed by corrosion.
I had similar problems with the gas tank on a Model A I bought, that had sat a few years. The Model A was running when parked, but I ended up having to pull the head and do a valve job to get rid of this sticky molasses type goo.
I googled problems with alcohol based gas, there is too much to list here, but look it up on the net. IT IS BANNED FOR MARINE AND AIRCRAFT USE IN CERTAIN STATES AND COUNTRIES, BECAUSE IT IS HYDROSCOPIC, ABSORBING WATER.
And any fibreglass or plastic tank built before 1990 is likely to dissolve from this gas.
Viv.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

X10.

The stuff is crap I don't care how you try to legitimize it and yes, it is for the benefit of Big Ag. Follow the yellow brick money road Toto it will lead you to the Emerald City of ConAg, Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, Case IH, John Deere, New Holland, etc. That is your answer. And, the truth.

The lobbyist's don't make the rules. Congress does.

[Tinker]

...

[barnfind]

I have 3 dead engines right now that require fuel pumps or carbs to run again due to the big E crap gas. Forgot to put STABIL or something similar in them last fall.
Actually I think I did put it in but not real great at record keeping.
Started buying premixed 2 Cycle gas at HD, Walmart, or Lowes for the same reason.

Lobbyist "own" most of Congress.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by papanomad

if I want something that runs on corn, i'll get a horse!!

I like that!!

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by tubman

All I can add is what I have experienced. While the alcohol gas may be OK for short term storage, for anything longer, it's a chance I don't want to take. A few years ago I decided to resurrect a couple of my vehicles that had been sitting for 3 years. My '68 Corvette had been run exclusively on non-oxygenated (no alcohol) gas. I primed the carburetor, and it fired right up and purred like a kitten. My Yamaha snowmobile on the other hand, had been run on whatever was available on the trail, and I'm sure the last couple of tanks through it were corn gas. It would not start, and I had to take it completely apart and clean and reassemble the carburetors (all four of them).

I know it's a bit of an "apples and oranges" comparison, but I think it's indicative of what can happen. I know I'll never put a vehicle in storage for any length of time with a tank full of alcohol gas. I will add that I have never had a problem running the stuff, but I wouldn't take a chance on long term storage.

Same thing here. Fill the Mach 1 up with Phillips 66 Premium no-alcohol and she runs great. Sits all winter pops right off in the spring and runs like a scalded cat. On the other hand, gasohol has ruined my small motors, chainsaws and weed eaters. The guy at Stihl said to me " DO NOT run gasohol in our products, it gums up the carburetors big time. Only use straight gasoline." Part of that is from the Gov-mint air pollution standards they put on small engines today.

There you go.

[shoe box Jack]

I thought corn was for moon shine?. Jack.

[rotorwrench]

I run it in the small engines OK but I have to drain the fuel tank and run it dry if I let it set for any substantial length of time. If I don't, it will need a new one of those plastic carbs for sure.

[J Franklin]

Ethanol has destroyed 3 of my electric fuel pumps. Kits are available but are not ethanol compatible.

I think the Cash for Clunkers was a result of all the uptick in engine fires that were caused by ethanol damage to fuel lines.

[itslow]

Originally Posted by Paul Bennett

Know that '10% Ethanol' is actually 10% MINIMUM. Tests here in Oregon have found pump gas at close to 20%.

The ratings are "up to" the percentage listed. E10 is not supposed to have more than 10% ethanol. E15 not more than 15% (more specifically between 10.5-15%). E85 not more than 85% (between 51-83%).

If you're finding higher percentages at your local pumps, then some place in the chain isn't blending or storing its fuels properly.

[keith oh]

Indianapolis race cars use i00% alcohol, they run very well!!!!

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by keith oh

Indianapolis race cars use i00% alcohol, they run very well!!!!

Their fuel pumps aren't located on the top rear of the intake manifold either. I'd also assume they don't have fuel sitting in their tanks for months on end as well.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by keith oh

Indianapolis race cars use i00% alcohol, they run very well!!!!

Top fuel dragsters use Nitromethane, and the seem to run very well also!

[J Franklin]

Maybe we need a race where the gas has set around a year, it might be fun! Do you think the different stations would plaster their names across the cars?

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Maybe we need a race where the gas has set around a year, it might be fun! Do you think the different stations would plaster their names across the cars?

That would be neat. It'd be like a common mans race where they deal with real world issues!