31 A Submerged above Intake in Salt Water Thanks to "Sandy"

[xkeots]

Please Help!

Huricane Sandy had my Model A sitting in salt water mixed with oil just above the intake manifold.
I am sort of lucky that every year for the past 6 I have coated the under side of my 31 Model A with either POR-15 or Eastwoods Rust Encapsulator then a coat of Krylon semi Black. That saved my underside.
I went by the manuals and drained washed out the rear and tranny with Kerosene then refilled with Oil.
I dropped the exhaust and poured out the water and have another on the way.
On the motor I rebuilt the carb and drained out 10 qts of salt water mixed with oil. I took out all plugs and filled chambers with PB Blaster and then changed the oil twice. I replaced the starter and I started it up for 5 minutes and the water was steaming out white smoke. I then drained the oil and it was white, so I still have some water inside.
I wanted to know is I can drop the oil pan and oil pump while the motor is still in the car, clean it, replace the gaskets and reinstall?
This way I can bring the oil pan to my Transmission shop and have them run it through their oil bath cleaner and get out all of the crud and I can clean out the oil pump in petrol.
The insurance company totaled out the car but let me buy it back.
I lost my father 2 years ago and this is the only thing I have from him so I must get it right.
I have a new wiring harness, generator, hoses, clutch kit, brake rebuild kit, interior all ready for replacing. Most of the paint is still great.
I have already rebuilt the carb, distributor, coil, starter motor and pressure washed and steamed out the seams and between body and frame.
As money comes in I buy new parts that might be affected in the future and I have soaked all moving parts in PB blaster, WD 40 and lithium grease.
It is the inner motor that I need to clean so please let me know about oil pan and pump. (No water in rumble seat)

Thanks very much
Jack Miller
(Late) 1931 Ford Model A 5 WDW Coupe

PS: What is the best cleaner to get the oil out of my radiator coils and off of the fenders? I bought Dawn and I was going to lightly pressure wash with Dawn. I have washed it down twice so far.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Hi Jack and welcome to Fordbarn. I trust you have seen the similar posting where this is currently being discussed?

Dawn soap will do a good job of cutting the oily fim you are describing. The same would apply with the radiator exterior. You might consider using a foaming degreaser (i.e.: Gunk) to pre-soak. We have discussed engines and the affects in the other posting so you might want to read the advice posted there.

[James Rogers]

You can remove the pan and pump while the engine is in the car. It is not a fun job but it is not too bad. When you remove the pan watch out for the pump, it will fall out and might hit you in the head. You might want to remove the valve cover and rinse it out with kerosene or diesel and check for silt in it. Since you have already run it, I don't think you can do anything about any silt that got into the oil tubes and won't know if any damage is done there till the mains go out from abrasion. Dawn is probably the best thing to use to clean the oil from the outside of the car and radiator. Use plenty with as hot of water as you can stand and a wheel brush on the rad and a soft body brush anywhere else. Rinse with a plain water hose. A pressure washer might do more damage than the oil.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Be careful of a pressure washer close to the radiator fins. I often use my air compressor, syphon gun, and gas to clean parts of oil and grease.

[J Franklin]

http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89814

[xkeots]

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Originally Posted by James Rogers

You can remove the pan and pump while the engine is in the car. It is not a fun job but it is not too bad. When you remove the pan watch out for the pump, it will fall out and might hit you in the head. You might want to remove the valve cover and rinse it out with kerosene or diesel and check for silt in it. Since you have already run it, I don't think you can do anything about any silt that got into the oil tubes and won't know if any damage is done there till the mains go out from abrasion. Dawn is probably the best thing to use to clean the oil from the outside of the car and radiator. Use plenty with as hot of water as you can stand and a wheel brush on the rad and a soft body brush anywhere else. Rinse with a plain water hose. A pressure washer might do more damage than the oil.

Sorry to ask, but which is the valve cover
I rebuilt this motor in the 70's and due to age I forgot
I can look it up when I am home
But I am planning on dropping the oil pan and not jacking the car up
So that will work.......Thanks
What would you use internally to clean crank, pistons, etc while pan is down?
Gasoline in a spray gun? A few cans of WD 40 with a catch pan underneath?
I have never been in this situation before
I have to re wire the car first as it was sitting in salt water for a while
I had to shut the engine as the starter was turning on the second re start
I have a complete harness home that I will start tomorrow

Thank you
Jack Miller
1931 Model A 5 window coupe

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by xkeots

Sorry to ask, but which is the valve cover
I rebuilt this motor in the 70's and due to age I forgot
I can look it up when I am home
But I am planning on dropping the oil pan and not jacking the car up
So that will work.......Thanks
What would you use internally to clean crank, pistons, etc while pan is down?
Gasoline in a spray gun? A few cans of WD 40 with a catch pan underneath?
I have never been in this situation before
I have to re wire the car first as it was sitting in salt water for a while
I had to shut the engine as the starter was turning on the second re start
I have a complete harness home that I will start tomorrow

Thank you
Jack Miller
1931 Model A 5 window coupe

The valve cover is on the passenger side behind the carb and can be removed by removing the carb and unbolting it. You may find plenty to clean out behind it. You can use dawn of kerosene to clean any of the internal parts. If you use dawn and water, use kerosene as a final wash to remove the water. It may take several oil changes to get all the water out. Hopefully no silt got in and the bearings will be spared.

[28RPU]

I hate to be the Debbie Downer here but I have seen what salt water does to boats and their metal parts.
I would completely disassemble the whole car just like you are doing a restoration and clean out every nook and cavity because salt dissolves in water and everywhere water could seep there will be salt eating away at your car.I don't think anything you can do to it with it assembled will save it. A few years down the road and it will be eaten up. Just look at how road salt gets to cars. Being submerged in virtually the same stuff will only make it worse.My 2¢

[Pete]

28RPU has it exactly.
In the long run I don't think you are going to have much luck with a partial clean up as you are talking about.
I have dealt with cars that have been submerged several times. There is a lot of abrasive in the water and you have to completely tear down every part in the car to get it all out. That includes all of the suspension and running gear parts. Everything that had water against it.

[Mike Peters]

On the lighter side, if the water is not too deep, surfing is always a fun flood option!!!

[columbiA]

Befor you drop the pan,unscrew the 1/8" pipe plug in the block below the carb & above the pan flange.Screw in a 3/8"NF bolt until it contacts the oil pump hsg & it will keep the O P from dropping down.Remember to replace the bolt with the original plug when you put it all back together.When removing pan ,it will be much easier if you have the front axle several inches off the floor.Also when removing front pan bolts they will be easier to get at if you turn the wheels all the way to R or L.If the pan comes off without damage to gaskets,you could likely reuse it with athin coat of grease on the gaskets & a dab of Permatex in the corners.To remove the dipper tray,you could remove the drain plug &a rod on an angle & knock the tray out.To install the pan,use 4 headless bolts about 2" long to guide the pan in place.

[Garage Dog]

Good luck!

[xkeots]

Originally Posted by columbiA

Befor you drop the pan,unscrew the 1/8" pipe plug in the block below the carb & above the pan flange.Screw in a 3/8"NF bolt until it contacts the oil pump hsg & it will keep the O P from dropping down.Remember to replace the bolt with the original plug when you put it all back together.When removing pan ,it will be much easier if you have the front axle several inches off the floor.Also when removing front pan bolts they will be easier to get at if you turn the wheels all the way to R or L.If the pan comes off without damage to gaskets,you could likely reuse it with athin coat of grease on the gaskets & a dab of Permatex in the corners.To remove the dipper tray,you could remove the drain plug &a rod on an angle & knock the tray out.To install the pan,use 4 headless bolts about 2" long to guide the pan in place.

Thanks for that tip!
I should be receiving a new 2 piece gasket and front and rear bearing end cap gaskets
I will use peramatex gray for a sealer
Do you have any idea ( I can't find it) the bolt torque on the oil pan bolts?

Thanks
Jack

[Louis]

The car will be nothing but problems in the years to come due to the salt water, I would let it go as soon as possible, This is just my per. opinion.

[columbiA]

For bolt torque on pan bolts- dont use a torque wrench! Use a 3/8" drive speed handle or ratchet to snug them up.You dont need a wrench more than 6" long to tighten 5/16" bolts.The only place I bother to use a T wrench on an A is the cyl head.After engine has been warmed up well,check the pan bolts again for tightness.

[dumb person]

i had salt crystals leak out of the pores in the metal of an axle that had been used in a boat trailer after soaking it in oil for a few weeks so there is hope. Soak it and wipe them away, soak it longer and clean it well.

[xkeots]

Originally Posted by Louis

The car will be nothing but problems in the years to come due to the salt water, I would let it go as soon as possible, This is just my per. opinion.

I have been restoring cars since 1965
But, I have never been in a situation line this
I do feel that all early cars if they were coated with undercoating inside the doors and inside steel, all under steel maintained and coated with rust prevent, por15, and a rust oleum top coat the body will be fine after a few good scrub downs
It's the moving parts that I am a little concerned about
I will drop the engine pan, clean it and get all of the dampness out
All rubber parts and brake parts will be rebuilt. The whole harness and all things electric replaced
I feel confident
Logically, this car has been driving this earth for 81 years and who knows what it has gone through before I was born
I have to replace the clutch and a new interior
I do not think that there will be any salt damage in the future
I lost my 1988 Porsche 911 Carrera convertible that I bought new and only had 15,000 original miles
That car can't be fixed due to all the electrical and semi modern additions that will just rot in the future, that hurts as it became 25 years and I lost a brand new classic
My Model A has a shot once I clean out the engines internals

Thanks
Jack
1931 Model A

[xkeots]

How about the un scrupulous dealers who had hundreds of brand new cars under salt water?
I have heard of some shipping cars out of state and or repairing them and prepping for sale to you and me
That is worse than buying a modal a that was under salt water
The model a has a better shot

[1928Pickuppain]

Don't let these guys freek you out. Drop the pans scrape out the shit wash with gas spray the crank and all interal parts with degreeser and then brake cleaner till your spotless. Button back up poor oil in her and start and drive. in regards to salt on the body go out to a beach on a lake drive in and out of the watter lett that fresh water get in all the nooks and cranny's and then let it pool and pull any salt out. Then power wash out side really good as you said you already have it undercoated nice and good. In regards to the interior I'd pull everything out and powere wash it all rub dawn soap in with good soft brush to get oil out then power wash again let it dry out in really hot room id also power wash inside of doors and floors any everywhere elce inside just to make sure all salt if out then I'd just reassemble when everythings good and dry and be done with it i really wouldent waist my time replacing the wireing there's so few wires that it's not like the salt really has any were to go just wash out your light swich assembly and sprey with silicone sprey. Rember if salt can go on it can come off no big deal little extra work but no big deal. My old jeep was a katrena car bought it from a friend down in new orlens for $800 when it showed up it was still filled with sand. Did all I just described to it and it treated me good. blew the motor runing 35" tires with a six inch lift with 410 gearing going 75 wide open from Pa back to Ma trying to keep up with my 4x4
club on an old 4 banger. she's been sitting in my back yard as a parts car for 4 years now with no roof an is only now starting to show signs of any rust and only on the body. The frame is as solid as can be. So don't worrie just get that salt off and out asap

[dwollam]

Personally, if I was going to replace the clutch which means pulling the rear end, I would go ahead and pull the engine, then clean it. It would be alot easier upside down on an engine stand. If you are going that far, why not go all the way to keep your keepsake as nice as you can. No more cost, just some labor.

[1936ford64]

No , No, No gasoline on parts that will come in contact with lubrication

[xkeots]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I wonder how many old cars will be running the auction circuit in the coming year, that were victims of Sandy as people try to pawn them off...............

In Long Island over 250,000 cars were under salt water with Sandy.
My Porsche was picked up today and the trucker told me that it was going to an auction like the rest.
That means that dealers will be buying these cars and doing a slop shot repair on them and then putting them back on the street for people to buy and they will have a quick fix.
Eventually all of these cars will start rotting out everywhere.
All of us who are not aware will be screwed.
They should all be crushed so that nobody gets hurt and that innocent people don't get a rotten car with future problems.
The insurance companies should take a loss and be done with it.

Jack

[Tom Wesenberg]

Insurance companies don't take loses, they just raise our rates.

[xkeots]

Then what is the best solvent to clean out of my motor all of the white oil so it causes no damage and stays oil color and removes all dampness internally?
Kerosene? Gunk? Carb cleaner? Gasoline? Synthetic oil?
I just received my exhaust, intake, oil flow thru and pan gaskets today.

Thanks
Jack

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by xkeots

Then what is the best solvent to clean out of my motor all of the white oil so it causes no damage and stays oil color and removes all dampness internally?
Kerosene? Gunk? Carb cleaner? Gasoline? Synthetic oil?
I just received my exhaust, intake, oil flow thru and pan gaskets today.

Thanks
Jack

I would spray it out using a syphon sprayer and gas, then right away use the syphon sprayer to spray oil all over the inside.

[oliverguy]

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There will be tons of flood cars passed off, just like Katrina a few years ago. My brother works for an insurance co. He says that these guys never get all the silt out of them & if your careful you can spot them. I would imagine the same would go for antique cars. He also said they never run right again, which is the reason they get totalled...

[Keith True]

Model A's will get treated differently than some modern salvage car.They won't get scrapped,somebody,somewhere will fix it.A few years ago I got to bid on a late 31 DeLuxe roadster that had been drowned in the mothers day floods we had that year.The owner put in the claim,figuring he would get the chance to buy it back and fix it.When he asked about it,he was told that they stood a much better chance of recovering more money on the open market,unlike a modern car.He got to bid on it just like everybody else.I don't know what it brought,but it was bought by a street rodder that beat my $10,500 bid.I knew the car and knew just what he had done to it even before the water had gone down.I was not afraid to buy that car.With an isolated incident like that they have time to be in the recovery business.With this disaster I can see them being to busy to take the time to try and recover on each one.The guy I worked for in 1978 bought dozens of flood cars at auction after the blizzard of 78.I doubt we tried to save more than a half dozen or so.We did save a 10 week old new Caddy that his wife drove for about 6 years after.I dried that car out.I bet I could have dried out 35 A's in the time it took to do that Caddy.

[xkeots]

Motor runs great after lots of cleaning and new harness, starter, generator, etc.
My clutch is frozen and one wheel's brake shoes are frozen.
I will get to that on a warmer day.

Thanks
Jack

[SSsssteamer]

I drove our 1929 A Tudor through a flooded road and the fresh water came to about 4 inches up the doors. The water was deeper than it first looked. I was able to get through the water without stalling the engine. It took over a year to get the moisture out of the car. The body and the upholstery held a lot moisture. The running board matting eventually bubbled up from rust caused by the moisture that was trapped between the rubber matting and the running boards. Never again will I drive my car on flooded streets. It is just too hard to dry them out. I wish you the best in getting your 31 A dried out and de-salted.

[xkeots]

Hi group,

I am still not where I want to be on my 31 as my mom is in hospital going on 17 weeks and waiting for a spot for heart valve surgery.
I did mAnage to get motor running nicely and I replaced running boards.
btw, Loctite has a great newish product that has penetrating oil and drops the temp on the rusted bolt & nut to - 35 and out it goes.
I just developed a problem that I hope you can help me with.
The after effects (possible) of sitting in salt water (I think affected my radiator).
the flood water had salt water sitting up to my light bar that I pressure washed and steam cleaned the outer radiator.
I just noticed an anti freeze leak that has my new headlamp wire harness wet.
my dilemma now is this.
should I bring the radiator to my local shop for an acid bath and pressure test and repair or buy a new radiator? Can it leak again from the salt?
I did not think that after pressure cleaning with Dawn and steam cleaning that the radiator would leak.
Will anti freeze ruin my new harness?
should I try the shop or just get a new radiator?
So far the only problems (beside radiator) I am having post storm are a frozen clutch plate, one frozen wheel brake shoe to drum and a small rust spot on my left rear fender that had an inner repair that was covered with under coating, that I will cut and weld a new patch come spring.
My running boards I replaced this week but they were bad before.

Thanks
Jack
1931 Model A late build 5 Window coupe
engine runs great and all external engine parts replaced.

[spdway1]

You are going to keep on chasing things on that car as long as you own it, sorry to say.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

"Befor you drop the pan,unscrew the 1/8" pipe plug in the block below the carb & above the pan flange.Screw in a 3/8"NF bolt until it contacts the oil pump hsg & it will keep the O P from dropping down."

This is bad advice, the threads per inch are not the same and will possibly ruin your block. You can buy the proper tool from any supplier for less than $10. Do it right.... The threads in the block are (27 tpi) as opposed to a 3/8-(24 tpi)bolt.

[xkeots]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

Jack, I wish you had asked here first about pressure washing. I feel that this is the reason your radiator has developed a leak. They are too fragile to stand up to that kind of force.............

Sorry, not a pressure washer but I soaked the ribs of the radiator with "Dawn" and I used the pressure of my garden hose at 5-8 feet to clean out through the slats of my radiator till the bubbles stopped, as BP used Dawn to clean the oil spill 2 years ago and it is amazing. I then used a steam cleaner to make sure. It got the paint and underside squeeky clean.
I have a pressure washer but it would bend the fins.
I have been rebuilding cars since 1965 and have won quite a few awards from it, but it is a hobby and a passion as I do everything but the transmissions myself.
I never had to save a car that was hit by salt. I did manage to clean it in time. If there was anything major to the metal it would start to show by now.
Everything electric was replaced, all gaskets replaced, all internals cleaned with kerosene.
The motor has no silt as it was washed with Kerosene and 5 oil changes till there was no more white.
It ran for 2 hours idling after I cleaned it up and it runs great. New exhaust.
The past 10 years I have every summer painted to every underside of the body, fenders, frame, etc. 1-2 coats of either POR-15 or Eastwood's Rust encapsulator and then a complete coat of Krylon black spray paint.
I think that those 10 + coats are what saved the car.
The interior was ripped out the next day and for years I have opened the door panels and kick panels and used POR-15 and undercoating on the inners of the doors and body. Interior will be replaced after I paint a few spots this spring. Seat springs are coated.
There is nothing that will rot in the future. All brakes from master to wheels are being replaced (Yes I have an early hydraulic brake system in the car) all
rubber, belt, hoses, etc are replaced. Tyres everything.
Remember, this is a Model A Ford that can stand up to anything.
None of you know what your car went through before you owned it. My family has owned mine since 1969. I rebuilt it body off twice since.
I took extra care of this one.
I am just not sure of how salt water mixes with the material of the radiator.
I am also doing a body off on a 1967 Pontiac GTO Convertible and a body off on a 1977 Corvette L-82. Just finished a 1963 Split Window coupe with all original parts and matching numbers.
My screen name is the first car I ever rebuilt and I have rebuilt over 25 since 1965, which is a Jaguar XK E-Type Open Two Seater.
I am doing a lot of research on salt water these days.
I had to loose a 1988 Porsche 911 convertible all black that I bought brand new and it only had 15,000 miles on it. The salt ripped it up in a week.
That I had to break my heart over. But my 61 Cadiillac Convertible that I finished last year covers it.
Just mentioning these things to say "he I know cars but I have no clue about being attacked by salt water.
The Model A is easy enough to fix if gotten to early enough and I did.
Just don't know about the radiator repair and to fix it is 50.00 and to buy a new one is 600-700.00.

Thanks
Jack

[xkeots]

Originally Posted by Jim Parker Toronto

"Befor you drop the pan,unscrew the 1/8" pipe plug in the block below the carb & above the pan flange.Screw in a 3/8"NF bolt until it contacts the oil pump hsg & it will keep the O P from dropping down."

This is bad advice, the threads per inch are not the same and will possibly ruin your block. You can buy the proper tool from any supplier for less than $10. Do it right.... The threads in the block are (27 tpi) as opposed to a 3/8-(24 tpi)bolt.

Snyders sold it to me

[xkeots]

Originally Posted by spdway1

You are going to keep on chasing things on that car as long as you own it, sorry to say.

Not this one, another maybe. I was on top of this one and it has been maintained and rust proofed for over ten years

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'd try fixing the radiator, especially if it's an original.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Originally Posted by xkeots

Snyders sold it to me

The bolt trick always worked for me. If the bolt is the right length you only have to turn it a couple of threads to tighten against the oil pump. The Snyders tool would be a safer bet however.

[bobbycoke]

Pop worked for the Ford Motor CO. and a Ford dealer from the 30's until the mid 1960's [then went to Caddilac] at the south shore of Long Island NY they had pulled and saved many an old car that took a "swim" in the canals,down a boat ramp , or just off a bridge.....they would be in salt water. He agreed that you cannot get all the salt out but with flushing with water, kerosene mostly and changing all fluids , drill holes in rockers.fender wells etc. to flush out with oil or kerosene, yes he swares by MM oil,you can save the metal and mechinical components, yes some may rust out a little prematurely but the steel in older ford cars was better resistant to rust... Today you have WD 40 in which the WD stands for Water Displacement, that should help. Now the bad news change everything electrical as the electrics will suffer a fatal period with the salt, but the old cars could survive these because of the small amount of"electronics" compaired to modern cars, they are easy to change out the few wires and generator, coil,light bulb sockets and distributor "guts"..... so do not throw the car away you can have many more years of fun when and if and when body work is needed then take care of it......Bobbycoke

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Originally Posted by Barry B./ Ma.

The bolt trick always worked for me. If the bolt is the right length you only have to turn it a couple of threads to tighten against the oil pump. The Snyders tool would be a safer bet however.

I never said that it wouldn't work, but, do you want to be the one in a thousand that it didn't ? Why gamble with something so easy to do right, the repairs to fix this short cut could be heart breaking.

Never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.......

[TDO]

I sure am sorry to here about your Model A, But I agree with 28RPU It will be a lot of work,but you wll be glad you did it in the long run. good luck.

[Clem Clement]

I wonder how the NYC subways are makingout having the cars and the tunnel filled with salt water?

For the Hurricane of '44, we lived in Brigantine, NJ, on the beach. Mother's 41Ford coupe was in a garage a block off the beach. The garage held but the water inside came up to her floorboards. The owner of the garage had several open cans of used oil sitting around(wartime). The salt water dumped the oil which stayed in the garge and coated the underneath of the car. After the storm, our mechanic cleaned the wheel bearings and we ran the car for another 15 years with no problems.

[xkeots]

Originally Posted by bobbycoke

Pop worked for the Ford Motor CO. and a Ford dealer from the 30's until the mid 1960's [then went to Caddilac] at the south shore of Long Island NY they had pulled and saved many an old car that took a "swim" in the canals,down a boat ramp , or just off a bridge.....they would be in salt water. He agreed that you cannot get all the salt out but with flushing with water, kerosene mostly and changing all fluids , drill holes in rockers.fender wells etc. to flush out with oil or kerosene, yes he swares by MM oil,you can save the metal and mechinical components, yes some may rust out a little prematurely but the steel in older ford cars was better resistant to rust... Today you have WD 40 in which the WD stands for Water Displacement, that should help. Now the bad news change everything electrical as the electrics will suffer a fatal period with the salt, but the old cars could survive these because of the small amount of"electronics" compaired to modern cars, they are easy to change out the few wires and generator, coil,light bulb sockets and distributor "guts"..... so do not throw the car away you can have many more years of fun when and if and when body work is needed then take care of it......Bobbycoke

I am on the south shore of . long island. I ha've replaced every electric part and wire on the car since.

[Keith True]

I think you're overthinking the radiator problem.Yours just got a saltwater bath.Radiators on the road are subjected to a salt spray for thousands of miles at a time.Wet,dry,wet,dry,with lots of time between for corrosion to go to work.They are under a constant barrage of brine in the winter.I think you probably uncovered a problem when you washed it.When you get hard grease piled up around the bottom of the radiator it will keep the leaks sealed up.I have a nice looking original radiator that had a lot of grease on it.I washed it with solvent and a hose,it had 22 leaks after with none before.It was corroded from the inside out,and the grease was holding it all in.I have people see it in the shed and try to buy it from me,it looks like a perfect dimple finned radiator.I really should bash it with a hammer,someday somebody is going to try and sell it as a good radiator.

[37 Coupe]

Also instead of using WD 40 try finding a couple cans of Gibbs Brand oil,not the Joe Gibbs racing engine oil but Gibbs Brand it is very usefull in penetrating metal,protecting it cleaning etc,lots of gun owners/hunters use it,check it out and only place I have ever found it is on Ebay,not cheap.