My new engine starting nightmare in Seattle. Touring motor.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

Hmm, I wonder if I have adjusted the valves wrong. Very possible as I have never done it before and it was a little confusing to me.

Aha! A new clue. Follow Les Andrews very carefully. It is confusing, but if you go step by step you'll be fine. As long as we're xhecking things, do your timing gears match correctly?

[hardtimes]

Hey Hitchiker,
Sounds like you are having tooo much fun, eh !
Man, you have some good/great stuff to play with there and sounds like you got a good basis to work from !
Don't get stressed over this situation, unless you use this as a daily driver and only one you have !
Do ONE thing at a time and ensure that each system is done right, before moving on, i.e.- elect, fuel, mechanical, etc.
That 7:1 head is a great addition, but you must ensure its' proper installation. I'd do both sides of a new Best copper head gasket with few coats of copper coat spray, letting it 'tack' up a little between coats. I'd get the 'big bore' gasket, although you only are .060 over stock. Once you have the head (mechanical) properly installed, plugs adjusted and snugged down, move on to next (fuel/elect) system. Did you use hardened washers under the aluminum head ? Yeah, I'd start with the stock zenith updraft and manifold, if you have such, just to get 'things' (fuel system) dialed in !
Fuel piled up in the intake manifold is normal....when cranking without proper elect and compression (used head gasket )! NO spark and used head gasket equals lots of unburned fuel in engine. If it gets to this point again, crank engine with throttle fully open to allow blow out exhaust (flooded cond). As far as your statement about SLOW cranking speed. Part of mechanical system, is to ensure starter is in top condition. Often times , the starter switch is with crud and burned contacts. This will cause what you describe. I just cleaned my starter contacts yesterday and you may be amazed in difference. It only takes about 15 minutes to take switch off, clean and install ! My B engine is warmed up and HARD to crank, but maybe just getting old, eh

WARNING:
Your using an aluminum head ! Usually , an aluminum head is not torqued down ,IMO,as much as an iron head can be. When properly installed with sealant, you shouldn't need more than 55lbs head torque, IMO. I'd do re-torques often enough to get a solid 55lbs with alum expansion/contraction rates !

Well, you did not say that at first post. That(bad adj) would /could be cause for all that you've experienced thus far..........'the longest I got it to run is FOUR (4) seconds' and 'no compression. Sounds like you've got your main suspect and remedy figured out ...valve adj !!

[Rex_A_Lott]

Hmm, I wonder if I have adjusted the valves wrong. Very possible as I have never done it before and it was a little confusing to me.[/QUOTE]

If it ran at all, not likely you did it completely wrong. They could be off a little, and you might get a little wear, or they could have worked loose.....good reason D.J. suggested checking them.
If they are stuck/sticking, it would help explain the lack of compression.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Rex_A_Lott

I always check both valves on the same cylinder while its halfway up on the compression stroke.
Good Luck

Uhhh.........."halfway up on the compression stroke"....

Don't do it that way!!......please..
Do it @ TDC.......make sure it's not on the "overlap".....please, this
would be the less complicated and easiest for the novice...

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey George,
I could be reading things...without my .99 cent CVS glasses, but I think that he IS using a dist, not mag. And, Jim Linder (Bubba) rebuilt it he says ? That dist is one of the better/best, IMO for A/B use

It's a mallory YA 11A supposedly from a combine built from 1938-1940.

My mistake, combines had mags not dist. So I jumped conclusions. I used to work on them in my Dads garage. Mags can be crankie some times.

[lowandslow]

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Hi Hitchhiker,

I don't post here very often mostly because I don't know much and, like yourself, my engine has a few bolt on, non stock items.
That said, firstly, as to your leaking Winfield carb, there are a few fixes: new gaskets, naturally, but also the various mating surfaces are very prone to warping, enough that those joints will leak even with a new gasket in them. Esp. I had trouble with the joint between the top piece and the float chamber, and the joint between the float section and the throat section. Take the carb apart and carefully file those joint surfaces smooth and flat, you will notice that the file begins to remove metal around the holes first. Sometimes this warpage is caused from using a too thick gasket, but also the metal itself is very soft and will warp by itself. No need to remove much metal, just enough to get the surface flat, no more. Bolt the carb back together with new gaskets, no need to tighten the bolts or screws very much as this will lead to more warpage, if you have things flat the leakage should stop.
My Winfield is a downdraft so it sets up fairly high on the engine, most experts say a fuel pump is needed, and that may be so for high performance stuff, hill climbs and the like, but mine runs just fine using gravity flow from the stock tank on a '29 pickup. More pressure from a pump would likely lead to more leaking, so to minimize that I tried it with no pump, and it works. Even at that I had to do some filing on the surfaces as described above to stop leaks. I do run with the float level a little high, that helps to compensate for lack of fuel pressure
As for the Mallory YA-11, I use one of those also. They come with various advance springs in them, but I went with the springs that were in it when I got it on ebay. I set mine so that the first set of points opens at the prescribed time as the stock A distributor and that works just fine, for me at least. If the engine starts easily, doesn't try to kick back when starting , then you are half way there. If the engine doesn't ping or knock at speed, and doesn't run hot from not being advanced enough, then you are pretty good. The big advantage of the dual points is that they will feed current to the coil longer, thus potentially making a hotter spark at high rpms, not a big issue on the A but the Mallorys look nice.
I hope this helps you, it can be simple to fix theses things, sometimes. Bubba's Ignition seems to be slowed down recently, but that would be the best place to get work done on your Mallory if it comes to that.

Good luck,
Tom

[Hitchhiker]

I should clarify that the head is Iron and the gasket was new, just sitting on a shelf for a long time. I have used sealer before. I don't know why I didn't this time. to much of a rush I guess. Also all the valves visibly are not stuck when I turned it over by hand with the head off. which was a few days ago.

I just tried something weird on advice from a friend. I took the exhaust off at the manifold and held my hand to it. It almost feels like it is sucking in? That seems to indictate to me that the valves are open to long or staying slightly open? But I am unsure...

I have a new Best head gasket that I will have this afternoon, I will re install it with coppercoat or Hylomar and redo the valves.

[Hitchhiker]

Originally Posted by George Miller

It's a mallory YA 11A supposedly from a combine built from 1938-1940.

My mistake, combines had mags not dist. So I jumped conclusions. I used to work on them in my Dads garage. Mags can be crankie some times.

No problem I can see how you figured that from the information provided. I can't verify that is was true or not, just something I read when researching the distributor.

[Hitchhiker]

Originally Posted by lowandslow

Hi Hitchhiker,

I don't post here very often mostly because I don't know much and, like yourself, my engine has a few bolt on, non stock items.
That said, firstly, as to your leaking Winfield carb, there are a few fixes: new gaskets, naturally, but also the various mating surfaces are very prone to warping, enough that those joints will leak even with a new gasket in them. Esp. I had trouble with the joint between the top piece and the float chamber, and the joint between the float section and the throat section. Take the carb apart and carefully file those joint surfaces smooth and flat, you will notice that the file begins to remove metal around the holes first. Sometimes this warpage is caused from using a too thick gasket, but also the metal itself is very soft and will warp by itself. No need to remove much metal, just enough to get the surface flat, no more. Bolt the carb back together with new gaskets, no need to tighten the bolts or screws very much as this will lead to more warpage, if you have things flat the leakage should stop.
My Winfield is a downdraft so it sets up fairly high on the engine, most experts say a fuel pump is needed, and that may be so for high performance stuff, hill climbs and the like, but mine runs just fine using gravity flow from the stock tank on a '29 pickup. More pressure from a pump would likely lead to more leaking, so to minimize that I tried it with no pump, and it works. Even at that I had to do some filing on the surfaces as described above to stop leaks. I do run with the float level a little high, that helps to compensate for lack of fuel pressure
As for the Mallory YA-11, I use one of those also. They come with various advance springs in them, but I went with the springs that were in it when I got it on ebay. I set mine so that the first set of points opens at the prescribed time as the stock A distributor and that works just fine, for me at least. If the engine starts easily, doesn't try to kick back when starting , then you are half way there. If the engine doesn't ping or knock at speed, and doesn't run hot from not being advanced enough, then you are pretty good. The big advantage of the dual points is that they will feed current to the coil longer, thus potentially making a hotter spark at high rpms, not a big issue on the A but the Mallorys look nice.
I hope this helps you, it can be simple to fix theses things, sometimes. Bubba's Ignition seems to be slowed down recently, but that would be the best place to get work done on your Mallory if it comes to that.

Good luck,
Tom

Thanks for the advice. Mine is a B downdraft. I actually took it all apart. glued a piece of wet sand paper to a flat piece of glass and poured ATF on it and started moving all the pieces I needed flat in a figure 8 pattern. On the parts you can't flat plate sand I used valve lapping compound and rubbed the parts together. I had some pretty major wear on the fuel inlet valve and it wasn't sealing. But I had another from a parts carb that I made work. I also had to fix the end of the idle air metering valve and the mid and high as they were damaged as well. It has new gaskets in it. I haven't tried it yet.But I am feeling pretty confident this time.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

I should clarify that the head is Iron and the gasket was new, just sitting on a shelf for a long time. I have used sealer before. I don't know why I didn't this time. to much of a rush I guess. Also all the valves visibly are not stuck when I turned it over by hand with the head off. which was a few days ago.
Did this engine RUN before you started messing with it?

I just tried something weird on advice from a friend. I took the exhaust off at the manifold and held my hand to it. It almost feels like it is sucking in? That seems to indictate to me that the valves are open to long or staying slightly open? But I am unsure...
That is possible,...Did you have the cam or crank out of the engine?
Did you change the cam / crank gears?

I have a new Best head gasket that I will have this afternoon, I will re install it with coppercoat or Hylomar and redo the valves.

Don't use Hylomar! Use coppercoat!

Before you go any farther,...answer the 2 above questions, please.
Also,...what else did you do OR someone else do to this engine?

[lowandslow]

Hitchiker,

The method for flattening you used is much more professional and shop worthy than what I described, better to do it the way you describe.
Good luck, you're almost there.

Tom

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Uhhh.........."halfway up on the compression stroke"....

Don't do it that way!!......please..
Do it @ TDC.......make sure it's not on the "overlap".....please, this
would be the less complicated and easiest for the novice...

I thought that WOULD be the easiest for the beginner...you can do it any time after you see the intake shut, and you know its on the base of the cam. Why waste time fiddle-fucking around trying to find TDC on each cylinder? Like I said in the other posts, there is lots of ways to do it...that is just mine. Good Luck

[Hitchhiker]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Don't use Hylomar! Use coppercoat!

Before you go any farther,...answer the 2 above questions, please.
Also,...what else did you do OR someone else do to this engine?

This engine has not run before.

I changed out the cam and put a brass gear with matched crank gear from Dan I can't remember his last name.... I indexed the cam, and set the valves.


Does anyone have a good link to the valve adjustment procedure? Or do I need to buy a book?

[Hitchhiker]

this is the one I used

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ruleofnine.htm

I should also mention it is a B cam if that matters.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

this is the one I used

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ruleofnine.htm

I should also mention it is a B cam if that matters.

In the first post you say it's a Winfield su1 cam?

[Hitchhiker]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

In the first post you say it's a Winfield su1 cam?

Sorry it's a SUIA cam profile on a original B cam. It's my understanding that the lobe separation angle is different than the A's?

does it make a difference when adjusting?

[CarlG]

Any chance you could hook up with an engine guru from one of the local clubs? That's been my best source of help when I get into a pickle like this. Fortunately, Jim lives only 2 blocks from me!

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

Sorry it's a SUIA cam profile on a original B cam. It's my understanding that the lobe separation angle is different than the A's?

does it make a difference when adjusting?

Forget about the LSA. Its ground in, you cant change it now. The rule of nines will work, but you have to keep track of where you are at.
Forget all of that. Check the lash on the base circle of the cam, in other words, when its shut. If its not correct, crank it around so you can adjust it, then crank it back around to check it again. After a few rounds of this you will pay more attention and eventually get it right.
Good Luck.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I hope you have valve lifters with a large enough diameter so the lobes don't stike the edge of the lifters. This can wipe out the cam and lifters in short order.

Study the valve opening and closing for one cylinder as you hand crank the enigne, and you should be able to tell if the camshaft is timed correctly to the crankshaft. At the end of the exhaust stroke the exhaust valve should be ALMOST closed, and the intake valve should be just a little open. This is known as valve overlap, and the exhaust gas rushing out of the cylinder helps pull in the new air/gas mixture. So if they have the overlap right at the top of the piston travel on the exhaust stroke, then the timing marks must be properly matched.

[tbirdtbird]

I'm with Tom W on checking the cam timing....you said "I indexed the cam"; how certain are you of what was done? Especially since you say "It almost feels like it is sucking in? " at the exhaust

We can argue all day whether to check compression hot or cold. However, cold there should be very decent compression with this 7:1 head.
So, once your valves are set for sure, and you have the head on the best you can, it would be very much worth the 5 min to check the compression before you get gas and spark anywhere near this engine. Those compression readings will tell you boatloads about where you are in the process so far. I feel as though you should easily be getting 60 psi

Have you worked on engines before this?

wonder if Jim Brierley has any thoughts

Help from a local club member would be invaluable, despite the fancy stuff