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Old 06-23-2013, 07:12 PM   #1
Hitchhiker
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Default engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

My buddies 29 Coupe has no oil drain back tube on it. Why is this?
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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My buddies 29 Coupe has no oil drain back tube on it. Why is this?

Pictures??
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:22 PM   #3
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

If you are asking about the one on the side of the block, he has a B engine.

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Old 06-23-2013, 07:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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If you are asking about the one on the side of the block, he has a B engine.

Bob
No fuel pump provision. here is one picture. He is sending me some more now.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

There were some early engines that didn't have an outside oil return line. If that is what you have, Its sort of rare.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
There were some early engines that didn't have an outside oil return line. If that is what you have, Its sort of rare.
Hmm interesting. It is a fairly early engine number.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

more
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

here is one of the car.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
There were some early engines that didn't have an outside oil return line. If that is what you have, Its sort of rare.
I just saw something on that in the books "Technically Speaking." Something like 1300 engines were made this way. Originally aimed primarily to commercial units. Quickly reverted back to original design for whatever reason.

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Old 06-23-2013, 07:50 PM   #10
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

Another picture
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

Technically Speaking Volume 7 page 11 article by Ed Francis and George DeAngelis.

Engines assembled between July 9, 1928 and October 2, 1928. Total of 1353 Experimental engines. During the same period 247,400 other engines of "normal" oil tube configuration were built.

Per the article:

"We suspect that this was an experimental project and the engines were installed on fleet sales vehicles for testing, as Ford sometimes did. After a period of time it was determined that these engines did not meet some unknown requirement and the whole program was scrapped."

Interesting...

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Old 06-23-2013, 08:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

A259209 would be July 28 per RG&JS page 1-2 revised 2011
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Old 06-23-2013, 11:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

I'd like to know more about the cowl band and cowl lights. Dealer add on, or later in life? Bob
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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Originally Posted by Hitchhiker View Post
Hmm interesting. It is a fairly early engine number.
So what is the engine number?

What is the gas tank date?

What is the assembly plant code and numbers?

I touched on this very subject in my latest "picture" article about the Model A Block in the most current May/June issue of Model A News.

According to Ford’s records of Daily Produced Engines that were assembled between July 9, 1928, (A236787), and October 2, 1928 (A477642), a specified number of “Special Experimental Engines” were produced.

What made these “special” was that the Oil Return Pipe Assembly, A-6645, along with the Oil Return Pipe Connections on the block, A-6015, and the Valve Chamber Cover, A-6520, (Fig. 21) were all deleted.

The addition of oil return holes were drilled on the floor of the valve chamber (Fig. 19, 20) to allow the oil to drain back into the Oil Pan Assembly. Each engine had the regular Model A/AA engine number stamping to indicate 1928 production.

Between 1353 and 1355 engines of this type were built. These can be substanuated by the Part Release data of April 23, 1928 for each specific part that was changed and those few engines which have been documented. Two engine numbers have been documented so far: A259209 (July 17, 1928) and A286625 (July 29, 1928).

NOTE: The above information came from: “Authentically Speaking: Inside Oil Return System (The Experimental Engine: July 9, 1928 through October 2, 1928)”: Model A News/35/3/9 (1988) and Vol. 7 of MARC’s “Technically Speaking”.

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Old 06-27-2013, 05:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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Originally Posted by Steve Plucker View Post
So what is the engine number?

What is the gas tank date?

What is the assembly plant code and numbers?

I touched on this very subject in my latest "picture" article about the Model A Block in the most current May/June issue of Model A News.

According to Ford’s records of Daily Produced Engines that were assembled between July 9, 1928, (A236787), and October 2, 1928 (A477642), a specified number of “Special Experimental Engines” were produced.

What made these “special” was that the Oil Return Pipe Assembly, A-6645, along with the Oil Return Pipe Connections on the block, A-6015, and the Valve Chamber Cover, A-6520, (Fig. 21) were all deleted.

The addition of oil return holes were drilled on the floor of the valve chamber (Fig. 19, 20) to allow the oil to drain back into the Oil Pan Assembly. Each engine had the regular Model A/AA engine number stamping to indicate 1928 production.

Between 1353 and 1355 engines of this type were built. These can be substanuated by the Part Release data of April 23, 1928 for each specific part that was changed and those few engines which have been documented. Two engine numbers have been documented so far: A259209 (July 17, 1928) and A286625 (July 29, 1928).

NOTE: The above information came from: “Authentically Speaking: Inside Oil Return System (The Experimental Engine: July 9, 1928 through October 2, 1928)”: Model A News/35/3/9 (1988) and Vol. 7 of MARC’s “Technically Speaking”.

Pluck

I just read that last night and decided to make it a priority to find and purchase one of those engines.

Great article, BTW! Not that I would expect any less from Pluck.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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I just read that last night and decided to make it a priority to find and purchase one of those engines.

Great article, BTW! Not that I would expect any less from Pluck.
Well.....I've heard tell that he wrote it in about 3 hours......and he paid
about 20 bucks for the information from Ford......really....would I pull your
leg?




lol
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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Well.....I've heard tell that he wrote it in about 3 hours......and he paid
about 20 bucks for the information from Ford......really....would I pull your
leg?




lol




Heck, it took me about 3 hours to just digest it...
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

hmm it would be interesting to find out why they went back to the origional tube and such....maybe had problems with the oil sludging up and clogging the holes or effictively reducing thier diameters? who knows...
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

Pluck, engine number is *A256479*
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:57 AM   #20
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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Pluck, engine number is *A256479*
A256479 would be a July 16, 1928 number and in the "window" of production of those engines.

By chance...what is the engine/frame number?

If the frame number matches this engine number...then to my knowledge, it would be the FIRST originally assembled Model A Ford that is known to have such an engine installed into it when originally assembled in 1928.

Also gas tank date and assembly plant code and number?

Is this "29 Coupe" a Special Coupe or Standard Coupe? By the looks of the photo, it is a Standard Coupe.

Are you sure it is not a 1928 Standard Coupe?

Thanks.

Pluck

Last edited by Steve Plucker; 06-28-2013 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:02 AM   #21
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

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hmm it would be interesting to find out why they went back to the origional tube and such....maybe had problems with the oil sludging up and clogging the holes or effictively reducing thier diameters? who knows...
It would be interesting to know the history as to why Ford produced this engine in the first place. Yes it was an experimental design and all that.

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Old 06-28-2013, 08:14 AM   #22
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Heck, it took me about 3 hours to just digest it...
At least YOU digested it...one of the few who has

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Old 06-28-2013, 02:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

Let me say up front that - as a registered mechanical engineer - I stand in awe of most (if not all) of Henry Ford's automotive engineering.

However, I removed the oil return pipe on my primary engine (in 1977) and my backup engine (1980) and have run them this way ever since, in daily driving - and otherwise - in Idaho, Washington and California, with no discernible degradation to engine lubrication. In fact - as iconoclastic as this may appear to other Model A owners - I think I can make a case for improved timing gear lubrication without the oil return pipe.

My principal concern with this set up, based on experience with marine diesel, steam turbine and reduction gear lubrication (and land-based power generation lube oil system design) was that there might be excessive foaming. There appears to be none, although I will admit this is difficult to determine.

I will - as a previous FordBarn poster stated - now go off line and wait to be squashed like a bug by others for suggesting such an unorthodox "modification".

Engine - passenger side.jpg

Oil Return Port - detail.jpg
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

That external drain tube also acts as an oil cooler.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Plucker View Post
A256479 would be a July 16, 1928 number and in the "window" of production of those engines.

By chance...what is the engine/frame number?

If the frame number matches this engine number...then to my knowledge, it would be the FIRST originally assembled Model A Ford that is known to have such an engine installed into it when originally assembled in 1928.

Also gas tank date and assembly plant code and number?

Is this "29 Coupe" a Special Coupe or Standard Coupe? By the looks of the photo, it is a Standard Coupe.

Are you sure it is not a 1928 Standard Coupe?

Thanks.

Pluck

When I have some time I'll get over there and inspect for the gas tank and assembly plant data.

We're just going off of the title info and what we were told. The engine number does match the title, but we haven't lifted the body to match the frame. "Fingers crossed"

Anyways here are some more pictures. How do we identify the year for sure besides the frame number? It does have the early style front frame/engine mount bolted straight to the block. Is that 28 only? I don't know it that is relevant.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109835
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitchhiker View Post
When I have some time I'll get over there and inspect for the gas tank and assembly plant data.

We're just going off of the title info and what we were told. The engine number does match the title, but we haven't lifted the body to match the frame. "Fingers crossed"

Anyways here are some more pictures. How do we identify the year for sure besides the frame number? It does have the early style front frame/engine mount bolted straight to the block. Is that 28 only? I don't know it that is relevant.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109835
There were a ton of running changes during that timeframe, so it's difficult to give you one or two things to look at. You're on the right track though, as far as taking a bunch of photos and letting everyone have a look.

I noticed the taillight on the passenger fender, but does the rear of the body have the three D-nuts for the body mounted taillight on the driver side? Also, pull up the floormat on the driver side by the kick panel and see if it has the hole for the early left hand emergency brake. A car in the 200,000 to 250,000 serial number range would have still had that hole but it would have been covered by a block-off plate, while it's highly unlikely that hold would still be there on a real 1929 car. And this is all assuming that it's pretty well one car (with the exception of maintenance and typical parts replacement over the years) and not a car tha was cobbled together out of a bunch of parts. From what I can see it looks to be pretty much the former and not the latter.

Deron
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napa Skip View Post
Let me say up front that - as a registered mechanical engineer - I stand in awe of most (if not all) of Henry Ford's automotive engineering.

However, I removed the oil return pipe on my primary engine (in 1977) and my backup engine (1980) and have run them this way ever since, in daily driving - and otherwise - in Idaho, Washington and California, with no discernible degradation to engine lubrication. In fact - as iconoclastic as this may appear to other Model A owners - I think I can make a case for improved timing gear lubrication without the oil return pipe.

My principal concern with this set up, based on experience with marine diesel, steam turbine and reduction gear lubrication (and land-based power generation lube oil system design) was that there might be excessive foaming. There appears to be none, although I will admit this is difficult to determine.

I will - as a previous FordBarn poster stated - now go off line and wait to be squashed like a bug by others for suggesting such an unorthodox "modification".

Attachment 135704

Attachment 135705

hmm im goign to go safely asume your using modern oil which may not leave deposits and such. may have somehting to do with it (modern VS model A era oil)

also roads were much bumpier of existant so maybe the bouncing foamed it up...

probably tried to remove it as its more parts to machine correctly, more holes to drill and tap, harder to make the valve cover casting and having someone clean up more burrs. may have come down to purely a cost thing.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:29 AM   #28
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

A model engines used in airplanes had no oil return line also
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:18 PM   #29
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

I've also seen Gordon Smith compressers with the outside oil line removed and blocked off.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:18 PM   #30
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Default Re: engine with no oil drain back tube provision?

Hurry up! I want to know! Thank you Pluck,for your dilligence.
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