Something let go in the tranny

[Will N]

Finally had some time to start work on the T. I pulled the rear end yesterday. Boy, is that simple to do. Six bolts is all that holds it to the car! Anyway, the U-joint is intact (someone posited that the U joint could have let go, so that's not it). I removed the driveshaft tube from the differential housing. The pinion gear is intact- no broken teeth- although it does seem to have a fair amount of wear-, and the drive shaft inside the tube seems intact, as when I spin one end, the other rotates. The ring gear seems intact too, but I haven't been able to inspect it too closely, because I it was still coated in oil, and I haven't got the axle housing apart yet. I tried moving the axles from side to side to see if perhaps the thrust bearings were gone, but there is only maybe less than a 1/16" of play. That's probably too much, but not enough for the pinion to have lost contact with the ring gear. There doesn't seem to be any chunks of metal in the oil, so I don't think the thrust bearing let go.

I'll keep you posted as I go though it. But from what I can see so far, I don't think that it was anything in the rear end that caused my problem. I'm going to have to take a closer look at the rivets on the pressure plate.

[yachtsmanbill]

Check for a high speed blow out on the drive shaft thrust bearing, and especially for a cracked drive shaft UNDER that sleeve! The DS Hyatt roller bearing is suspect too. Mine had a cracked pinion gear. It didn't fail, but that whole end is where the business occurs and takes a beating...

[Will N]

Well, I tore open the rear end this weekend, and I now know what the cause of problems is. The babbit thrust bearing disintegrated. There were about 5 chunks left, the rest of it must have been ground to pulp. The teeth on the ring and pinion gears are shot. The spider and axel gears look ok at first glance, but I'll be inspecting them closer. Both the thrust washer dowels on the driver's side housing are gone, and only one very worn one is left on the passenger side. There is only one dowel on either side of the carrier housings, but it looks like that might be all there ever was. Is that right?

[yachtsmanbill]

Ive got two axles with spider gears attached. The axles are bad but the gears look like new (for being88 years old anyway!) Ill cut the axles and let you take the gears off if you need them. The carrier on mine had only a single pin I believe. I would center and use the thrust plate as a guide and drill new holes with the old pins being ground off flush or below... ws





Since everything took a beating, give the carrier a spin and check for runout on the ring gear face. Under .010" is OK but less than .005" is better. Mine is as quiet as can be! Inspect the front drive shaft bearing and do yourself a favor and install a Fun Projects rear drive shaft bearing... dump that old Hyatt... Wayyy too involved setting it up accurately!

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Mr. Yachtsmanbill, you can't measure like that, as your last picture clearly shows you are already off by Two Feet!!!!!

[yachtsmanbill]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

C'mon Herm... that's a 1903 Dalton lathe... inaccuracies not withstanding! LOL ws

[Will N]

Bill, thanks for the offer, but while I was at Hershey last week, I picked up two nice axle gears, even before I had the rear end appart. I think I read in Lang's catalogue that these gears aren't being reproduced, so I wanted to have them on hand in case my gears were toast. Thanks for the tip on using the old thrust washers as a guide.

Herm, nice one about the two feet!

[Steve Jelf]

I agree with Bill on the pinion bearing. After dealing with both the original inner sleeve and the Fun Projects alternative, I'll use only the latter from now on. Getting that old sleeve off and installing a new one was a nightmare. In fact, I couldn't get the new one all the way on and ended up cutting it off with a grinder, and using the FP kit instead.

Just follow Glen Chaffin's book and all will be well.

[Will N]

STeve and Bill, I've read a couple of times now that the Fun Projects pinion bearing is the way to go. I checked, and they sell two versions; one adjustable and the other non-adjustable. Which is recommended? I also already have Chaffin's book. It all seems basic enough.

[yachtsmanbill]

Call John Regan... he'll speak with you personally and probably recommend the non adjustable. That's cheaper and more widely used than the adjustable model. You will have to exchange a serviceable spool though. John is a pretty sharp character but can "slip" over the edge and become a bit technical, so keep your questions basic! ws

[Will N]

Can I have your opinions? I've got the drive shaft all disassembled to the point where I need to pull the inner shaft sleeve (part 2596) off the drive shaft in order to get the ball bearing (2589, 2589-b) off. I don't have a sleeve puller. Should I even bother, or should I just spring for a new drive shaft? The front bearing surface up by the u-joint mics up .005 under 1 inch, which is according to the book, just acceptable. From what I'm reading, looks like the Fun Projects pinion bearing doesn't require the shaft sleeve 2596 or the ball bearing 2589 anyhow (is that right?) So I'm thinking I should just pony up for the new drive shaft, and save some aggravation in trying to pull that sleeve off.

[dumb person]

If you do not mind damaging original parts you can grind almost all the way through the sleeve and knock it off with a cold chisel.

[yachtsmanbill]

Put the shaft vertical on the floor ( a piece of hardwood or brass to protect the threads!) and a piece if 1-1/4" pipe over the shaft and use the washer as a mandrel. That sleeve should come off relatively easy. Maybe a little heat with the torch.
I had mine all together with the Regan bearing and found out I had two "rubs" especially on the housing rivets which meant a bent shaft. In other words, check the shaft before continuing ay further. A new one is about $100.00. Had to return the first new one as it wasn't much straighter than the OEM one, so CHECK THAT TOO! ws

[Will N]

I went to Harbor Freight and bought a cheap puller. It did come off pretty easily. Thanks for the advice!

[Bada$$]

I've rebuilt 2 rear ends in the last year and used original equipment for the pinion bearing. Was able to set the pinion with very little effort. I saved the money I would have paid for the Fun Projects setup. Now I have to admit I worked in a shop with a very large press and a professional Model T mechanic helping me but; after having a couple failures by the Fun Projects assemblies in a couple of our club cars I went with what I know. I find that axle gears are normally in pretty good shape. The axles themselves are usually worn out on the drum end of the axle where the Hyatt bearings run on the shaft. I sorted through a lot of axles to find axles I could use. I only found one that was acceptable. I ended up buying new axles and if I had to do the job again I'd just buy the new axles. If you buy new or used ring and pinion gears try to buy them as a matched set. You'll be glad you did. In my opinion you're going to want to chuck the carrier in a lathe like Little Billie did in his photo. ( I'd like to get my hands on the guy that gave Bill that Brownie camera) then face the pinion surface. That will get rid of any runout issues when you put the rearend together

[Will N]

Bada$$, is the intent on putting the carrier in a lathe so that the ring gear has a true surface to mount on so that it won't wobble when rotating? I don't have access to a lathe. I do have a dial indicator. Is there another way to check it? How often is the carrier found to be out of true? It seems to be a beefy part that would take some doing to change it from how it came out of the factory. Was Ford that careful to check runout when putting these babies together originally?

[yachtsmanbill]

You can bet that at 15,000,000 million units, Ford had a lot of machining fixtures already made up so a machinist merely chucked it up and made a single cut, with the next lathe over doing the next process. I located the XYZ axis off of the center of the carrier and checked the mounting flange for runout; they can get sprung and raise heck with setting pinion to ring gear clearance. I think the book gives you .003 and I had .005. If it were off by .010" I would've taken a truing cut off that face.
In your situation with no lathe, set the carrier on end on a cast iron table saw bed and a few drops of oil, with the indicator point on the flange. Turn the carrier and check it for runout that way, as the bearing surface should be reasonably flat as well. If you read .000 I wouldnt worry, but if some big numbers come in like .025 , Id find a lathe to use as a centering fixture for accuracy purposes before proceeding. ws

[Bada$$]

Will N, so I tell you to pay attention to what yachtsman says and right away he come back and shows what a hack blacksmith he really is. If I didn't love him like a brother I'd have to call him and tell him to stop being such a butcher and get it together!

Pay attention to what he's telling you to do. He's not checking the run out of the pinion bearing surface. He has you checking parallelism from the face of the end of the part to the ring gear mounting surface. In reality he's only checking half of the parameters that affect the way the pinion gear will run in the ring. Perhaps this is one time where you should invest in a lathe.

Ok now if you've taken the time to read my post this far, your likely aware I'm spouting the kind of crap you'd read on some of the other Model T forums. As yachtsman (Will) says "across the hall". What Will is telling you to do is an excellent way to get an idea of whether the carrier is true enough to run quiet in your Model T. And if it isn't true enough using his method get his address and he'll mount it on his Southbend lathe and true it up for you. If he can't do it because of his surgeries (freaking baby) then I'll IM my address to you and I'll make sure it gets done. And that way all you'll have into it is the cost of shipping.

[yachtsmanbill]

I sure hope BA uses his good eye on that job! Seriously tho, you need to keep Model T tolerances in perspective. Keep things as close as you can and don't intentionally get sloppy. Think like the Okie that broke down in Yuma Arizona in 1933 with $1.25 in his pocket... his feeler gage was a bean can AFTER dinner.
On the oil thing, break the joint or roll it so the driveshaft hole is on the bottom and cover it up with a small tarp and leave a light bulb on it overnight. Itll be empty in the morning. Mine was pretty cold up here so I waved a propane torch around it for a half hour... still pretty messy until its been washed thoroughly.
So Mike... how does that pine tar work instead of the 600w? Had the dentist do an X ray last week and recommend a root canal. Right. I went home and grabbed the 4" vise grips; MAN UP! ws

[Will N]

Ok Bill, I tried your method of rotating the carrier on a machined metal surface. Son of a gun, I'm measuring .012 of runout, which I guess is a lot, meaning I need to get this sucker trued up. I guess when a chunk of babbit gets between the ring and pinion gears, that's enough to bend that flange out of true.

Not being a machinist, how does one go about finding the "XYZ axis off the center of the carrier" in order to mount the thing in the chuck? A friend of mine has a lathe, but he's by no means an experienced machinist. If I could understand how it's done, I may be able to make sure he does it right. If it's too complicated for a shoemaker, than I might take Bada$$ up on his offer!