The Ford Barn

AndrewZ · 04-14-2019, 07:18 PM

I changed the timing chain on my '59 Edsel Ford FE 361 and now I have an engine knock. Any ideas on what this could be and how to know for sure? I read one thread where the owner said he forgot a spacer and that caused a knock. I don't remember there being a spacer. I did align the camshaft gear and the crankshaft gear. Thanks for any advice. I'd like to get this big hunk of steel back on the road.

Stenny · 04-14-2019, 07:30 PM

The original timing gear had a flange whereas many replacement gears have the spacer. If you installed a new gear without the spacer, this usually causes a knock as the gear bounces off the timing cover.

Anteek29 · 04-14-2019, 08:13 PM

Yes, excessive lateral displacement of the gear without the spacer.

39deluxecp · 04-15-2019, 09:23 AM

If I remember right, the early 332,352,361 FE had a coil spring and a button on the end of it to push the cam into the block. then in about 1962 or3 they started using the plate bolted to the block to hold the cam in place. those coil springs can break, causing the noise you described.

5851a · 04-15-2019, 05:43 PM

Yes 3 types that I know of, the button and spring, the retainer with separate C washer between cam and gear, then the gear with built in spacer. In my younger days I destroyed a engine by putting late style timing gear into a engine that had separate spacer still there. Sometimes you can fix stupid though, have measured camshaft end play since. BTW it was a 427 special cam and spiral lifters.

Ford Freak · 04-16-2019, 09:35 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stenny

The original timing gear had a flange whereas many replacement gears have the spacer. If you installed a new gear without the spacer, this usually causes a knock as the gear bounces off the timing cover.

BINGO ! Stenny nailed it ! The same problem ( knock ) can occur on 289/302/351 engines too w/some brands of chains , if the spacer is not installed . - F F

AndrewZ · 04-16-2019, 07:00 PM

Thanks, guys, I really appreciate your input. I knew I couldn't drive the car until I got that knock figured out. So let me see if I have this right. My new replacement cam gear likely did not have the flange spacer that the original had so it needs maybe a 1/8" horseshoe spacer between the gear and the retaining plate?

Where is the knocking happening? Is it the gear or the chain hitting the timing cover? I have may 10 - 20 minutes of idle on the engine with the knock. I probably have some metal shavings in the oil pan, right?

Ford blue blood · 04-17-2019, 07:47 AM

If it is anything like the one I was given "because it was toast" the spacer missing caused the adjacent lifter to kiss it's next door cam lobe. Result was chipped cam lobes, metal in the pan and toasted lifters.

Stenny · 04-17-2019, 10:01 AM

I would drain the oil into a clean pan. While this is going on, pull the timing cover and take a close look at the cover as well as the gear to see if there are any signs of contact. If you don't see anything it is likely the noise was caused by interference in the cam/lifter area. Once the oil is fully drained, take a close look at it to determine if there is any shiny metal floating in the oil or worse, metal chips in the bottom of the pan. If this looks good, put the spacer in, button it up and drive it. If you see metal in the oil you will need to pull the top end down to investigate. Be glad this is a FE motor and not an MEL as parts for those get really expensive, real fast.

AndrewZ · 04-18-2019, 12:14 PM

I drained the oil and there's no metal. Another reason why they says it's built Ford tough

. Next up I'll tear it down again and see what's under the timing cover, and get a spacer in there.

AndrewZ · 04-23-2019, 08:59 PM

I pulled things apart and I see a gash on the fuel pump arm

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...b8TIfdWOlHslB5

There's a scrape on the inside of the timing cover but I don't see how anything could knock out that far. It's below the spring holder

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...dl_xahvwJlAVvf

And here's a photo of the timing chain and gears. I'll pull of the cam gear next.

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...bflIn_9KGOYs0t

So I'm thinking the cam gear is displaced enough so that the elliptical is hitting the side of the fuel pump arm? The elliptical is not scraped or dented. It must be harder steel.

KULTULZ · 04-24-2019, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewZ

I pulled things apart and I see a gash on the fuel pump arm

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...b8TIfdWOlHslB5

There's a scrape on the inside of the timing cover but I don't see how anything could knock out that far. It's below the spring holder

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...dl_xahvwJlAVvf

And here's a photo of the timing chain and gears. I'll pull of the cam gear next.

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...bflIn_9KGOYs0t

My browser will not open the photos.

When you make a post and want to enter photos, there is a screen below the posting screen. Look for ATTACHMENTS and follow the directions.

I am interested in what you have.

THANX!

AndrewZ · 04-24-2019, 07:43 AM

OK, here's a third try to get the images in. Here's the fuel pump with the gash on the arm,
IMG_2990.jpg

the timing cover with a small gash,

IMG_2992.jpg

and the timing gear.

IMG_2993.jpg

Thanks for looking and thanks for any advice.

KULTULZ · 04-24-2019, 10:48 AM

You have the early FE cam drive setup (58-62) shown on your photo. There is no spacer, only the tension of the spring holding the cam in the block.

The fuel pump actuating arm appears to have been eaten by the pump eccentric indicating the eccentric is not positioned correctly (or cam install), the arm may have not been square to the pump body or experienced damage on install (forcing).

Where did you find the timing set (Manufacturer and Part Number)?

40 Deluxe · 04-24-2019, 11:22 AM

Wouldn't be the first time a fuel pump was installed with the arm out of position.

AndrewZ · 04-24-2019, 09:16 PM

All I changed was the cam gear and the chain. I verified that the cam gear was an identical match as far as diameter and gears. I did not change the pump elliptical.

I did put a new fuel pump in and I noticed the new fuel pump went in a lot easier than the old one. Maybe it went in off kilter?

KULTULZ · 04-25-2019, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewZ

All I changed was the cam gear and the chain. I verified that the cam gear was an identical match as far as diameter and gears. I did not change the pump elliptical.

I did put a new fuel pump in and I noticed the new fuel pump went in a lot easier than the old one. Maybe it went in off kilter?

Here's the thing, I believe that cam gear (58-62) was discontinued years ago as the normal service replacement went to fitting the 63/ gear (Alum) and spacer. You keep describing a spacer.

If you bought aftermarket, you need to know gear which you finally got and if it is correct.

It sounds confusing but it really isn't.

BTW, the 63/ cam gear was replaced in 1968 with an alum gear with nylon teeth and cast in spacer. You want to stay clear of this one also.

As for the pump, it may have been installed off-kilter and/or the cam drive is incorrect or the actuating arm is incorrect.

KULTULZ · 04-25-2019, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Here's the thing, I believe that cam gear (58-62) was discontinued years ago as the normal service replacement went to fitting the 63/ gear (Alum) and spacer. You keep describing a spacer.

If you bought aftermarket, you need to know gear which you finally got and if it is correct.

... hmmpf ...

I thought the early gear was unavailable (other than NOS). I stand corrected-

http://cloyes.mycarparts.net/product...id=16023451036

KULTULZ · 04-27-2019, 09:06 AM

Just Wondering ...

Did you find a solution?

AndrewZ · 04-27-2019, 04:37 PM

Hi and thanks for your advice and patience. The cam gear was after market but I haven't pulled it out yet. I should have it out in a day or two but I expect it does not have the spacer flange and will need a separate spacer. I'll post photos when I get it out.

I am prepping my other Edsel for trip across 2 state lines to the Early Ford V8 Club meeting tomorrow in Fitchburg, MA. It will be my first road trip in this car.

04-14-2019, 07:18 PM	#1
AndrewZ Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 18	361 Engine Knock I changed the timing chain on my '59 Edsel Ford FE 361 and now I have an engine knock. Any ideas on what this could be and how to know for sure? I read one thread where the owner said he forgot a spacer and that caused a knock. I don't remember there being a spacer. I did align the camshaft gear and the crankshaft gear. Thanks for any advice. I'd like to get this big hunk of steel back on the road.

04-14-2019, 07:30 PM	#2
Stenny Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 58	Re: 361 Engine Knock The original timing gear had a flange whereas many replacement gears have the spacer. If you installed a new gear without the spacer, this usually causes a knock as the gear bounces off the timing cover.

04-14-2019, 08:13 PM	#3
Anteek29 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Santa Maria, CA Posts: 985	Re: 361 Engine Knock Yes, excessive lateral displacement of the gear without the spacer. __________________ Alan 1929 Special Coupe 1941 Pick-Up 1955 Victoria

04-15-2019, 09:23 AM	#4
39deluxecp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: s/w Iowa Posts: 111	Re: 361 Engine Knock If I remember right, the early 332,352,361 FE had a coil spring and a button on the end of it to push the cam into the block. then in about 1962 or3 they started using the plate bolted to the block to hold the cam in place. those coil springs can break, causing the noise you described.

04-15-2019, 05:43 PM	#5
5851a Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: NE Iowa Posts: 1,664	Re: 361 Engine Knock Yes 3 types that I know of, the button and spring, the retainer with separate C washer between cam and gear, then the gear with built in spacer. In my younger days I destroyed a engine by putting late style timing gear into a engine that had separate spacer still there. Sometimes you can fix stupid though, have measured camshaft end play since. BTW it was a 427 special cam and spiral lifters.

04-16-2019, 07:00 PM	#7
AndrewZ Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 18	Re: 361 Engine Knock Thanks, guys, I really appreciate your input. I knew I couldn't drive the car until I got that knock figured out. So let me see if I have this right. My new replacement cam gear likely did not have the flange spacer that the original had so it needs maybe a 1/8" horseshoe spacer between the gear and the retaining plate? Where is the knocking happening? Is it the gear or the chain hitting the timing cover? I have may 10 - 20 minutes of idle on the engine with the knock. I probably have some metal shavings in the oil pan, right?

04-17-2019, 07:47 AM	#8
Ford blue blood Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 814	Re: 361 Engine Knock If it is anything like the one I was given "because it was toast" the spacer missing caused the adjacent lifter to kiss it's next door cam lobe. Result was chipped cam lobes, metal in the pan and toasted lifters. __________________ Bill, certified Ford nut. 2016 F-150 2016 Focus 08 Shelby GT500 57 Ford Ranchero 36 Chevy, 351C/FMX, 8", Mustang II

04-17-2019, 10:01 AM	#9
Stenny Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 58	Re: 361 Engine Knock I would drain the oil into a clean pan. While this is going on, pull the timing cover and take a close look at the cover as well as the gear to see if there are any signs of contact. If you don't see anything it is likely the noise was caused by interference in the cam/lifter area. Once the oil is fully drained, take a close look at it to determine if there is any shiny metal floating in the oil or worse, metal chips in the bottom of the pan. If this looks good, put the spacer in, button it up and drive it. If you see metal in the oil you will need to pull the top end down to investigate. Be glad this is a FE motor and not an MEL as parts for those get really expensive, real fast.

04-18-2019, 12:14 PM	#10
AndrewZ Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 18	Re: 361 Engine Knock I drained the oil and there's no metal. Another reason why they says it's built Ford tough . Next up I'll tear it down again and see what's under the timing cover, and get a spacer in there.

04-23-2019, 08:59 PM	#11
AndrewZ Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 18	Re: 361 Engine Knock I pulled things apart and I see a gash on the fuel pump arm https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...b8TIfdWOlHslB5 There's a scrape on the inside of the timing cover but I don't see how anything could knock out that far. It's below the spring holder https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...dl_xahvwJlAVvf And here's a photo of the timing chain and gears. I'll pull of the cam gear next. https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...bflIn_9KGOYs0t So I'm thinking the cam gear is displaced enough so that the elliptical is hitting the side of the fuel pump arm? The elliptical is not scraped or dented. It must be harder steel. Last edited by AndrewZ; 04-23-2019 at 09:02 PM. Reason: photo link

04-24-2019, 07:43 AM	#13
AndrewZ Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 18	Re: 361 Engine Knock OK, here's a third try to get the images in. Here's the fuel pump with the gash on the arm, IMG_2990.jpg the timing cover with a small gash, IMG_2992.jpg and the timing gear. IMG_2993.jpg Thanks for looking and thanks for any advice.

04-24-2019, 11:22 AM	#15
40 Deluxe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: now Kuna, Idaho Posts: 3,778	Re: 361 Engine Knock Wouldn't be the first time a fuel pump was installed with the arm out of position.

04-24-2019, 09:16 PM	#16
AndrewZ Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 18	Re: 361 Engine Knock All I changed was the cam gear and the chain. I verified that the cam gear was an identical match as far as diameter and gears. I did not change the pump elliptical. I did put a new fuel pump in and I noticed the new fuel pump went in a lot easier than the old one. Maybe it went in off kilter?

04-27-2019, 09:06 AM	#19
KULTULZ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY Posts: 6,466	Re: 361 Engine Knock Just Wondering ... Did you find a solution?

04-27-2019, 04:37 PM	#20
AndrewZ Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 18	Re: 361 Engine Knock Hi and thanks for your advice and patience. The cam gear was after market but I haven't pulled it out yet. I should have it out in a day or two but I expect it does not have the spacer flange and will need a separate spacer. I'll post photos when I get it out. I am prepping my other Edsel for trip across 2 state lines to the Early Ford V8 Club meeting tomorrow in Fitchburg, MA. It will be my first road trip in this car.