The Ford Barn

philipswanson · 06-30-2019, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrisoncarroll

Engine is at shop but I am pretty sure the “C” stamped at the intake rear surface was on the passenger side.

Don't see that on mine.
looks more like a
'W"

Phil Swanson

rotorwrench · 06-30-2019, 10:09 AM

Here in the US, they made a change to the blocks in late 1940 or early 1941. They eliminated the pan rail sand clean outs and they reduced the amount of iron at the top of the block so the intake deck appears to be raised. They did this on all USA engines. I don't know if the Canadian company did this at the same time or even if it was done at all on affected engines. Ford Dearborn didn't put series casting numbers on till in the post war era with the 59 series. They stamped the early 99 series to ID them until they started painting them dark blue. They stamped the LB engines to ID them back in 1935/36. Canada did follow the practice casting series ID but I don't know about wartime and I didn't know that they did them for every year either. That just doesn't make sense. Canadian engines are not very common here in the lower 48. I'm also not sure how many 99 series engines were produced in Canada. I've seen them with the raised cast "99" on them in same location as the photo on this thread of the 81. Ford & Mercury car production was likely cut short by the war in 1940 or at least reduced.

I know that the C69 series Canadian engines had single shell rod bearings but I didn't know that it was done before 1946. They could be retrofitted though to some extent. I was always under the impression that the C59 series still had floaters. Now I'm always open to new information as long as it is correct in detail. There is still a lot I don't know about the Canadian engines and components. I just want facts, no rumor or innuendo.

Ford USA started with the 81A 24-stud in the early part of the 1938 model year but they were still producing the old 21 stud as well for a while. I think they wanted to see if the design was going to work OK before they cast the first 99 series engines for 1939 that depended on the 24-stud design. The long snout crank had to come about for the Deluxe Ford models with the crank mounted fan in 39. The 99 series got the larger rod bearings but 81 series stayed the same for a while longer till 1942 I believe. I don't know how much of this paralleled with Canada but it likely did until the war started up in western Europe as of late September of 1939. 1940 was the crank up year. Lend lease took a while longer to get started for the US and had to pass the congress first. The US was still trying to stay out of the war. The 2-bolt distributor came along in 1942. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then. The valves in that engine don't have the Ford script. US built engines had the Ford script on intake valves at least but I don't know about Canada. That motor was likely reconditioned at some point. The block has the look of a pre-1941 USA 221 but I don't know when or if Canada changed the block at the same time as the USA. The war changed a lot of things in that time frame for Canada.

Brian · 06-30-2019, 03:38 PM

Some of the differences with Canak stuff;

Starting with the LB 36 blocks, all Canadian blocks with shell mains have two 5/8 holes machined in the pan rails, I assume they were used to locate the blocks in fixtures during the machining stages. The front one of those 5/8 holes, is visible behind the front pulley, and is the quick surefire way to id whether the 36 block one is looking at is indeed an LB.
221's produced between 39-45 could be manufactured with either floater rod bearings [basic part no C01TS-6211], or locked in shells [C41A-6215]
239's made 39-45 ran floaters [C09TS-6211], whereas between 45-48 they could have also had locked in shells [C49A-6215]
These locked in shells are not to be confused with 8BA style; they are thicker, and can be replaced in service with the regular floaters.

rotorwrench · 06-30-2019, 06:00 PM

The C41A part number indicates 1944. Ford USA started back up on 221 production in late 1944 (41A block) but many of them have the 59 on the back even though they are 221 blocks. They continued to cast both 221 and 239 blocks for a while after the war. I have no idea how many 41A blocks were produced but they are out there. I've heard of the large shell Canadian bearings. Up in Canada, they likely used the same crank on both engines after the war when they started using those non floater bearings. Ford USA just kept on using floaters through the end of the 59 series production in late 1948. By then, they had bean producing the 8BA for the pickups and the 59A for the cars for a good part of that year. It was kind of like 1938 when they produced 21 stud and 24 stud engines at the same time for part of that year.

Brian · 06-30-2019, 08:51 PM

The Canaks used the lock in shells C49-6215 in trucks up to serial # H48-20000 [C69A engines], then from #H48-20001 used the new 8BA style engine. This also occurred during the 1948 production year

philipswanson · 06-30-2019, 09:00 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

How can I tell which block I have without tearing into it?

hHh

rotorwrench · 07-01-2019, 01:12 PM

That block is perfectly adequate for any 221 application from 1938 thru WWII . For USA vehicles, it would be mostly correct for any up to and including 1940 that had an 85 HP 221. For Canadian vehicles, it may be good for any up through the end of production for wartime changeover when ever that was for Canada. It would also be good for any military vehicle of Canadian Manufacture during the war years. Folks weren't too picky about where an engine came from or what year it was. They just wanted one that would be cheap and fit without too much trouble.

The only other thing you can do is see what con rods it has and that will only tell you what type of crank and bearings it has. This info isn't all that important really. When you repair one of the odd engines, you generally use the stuff that is readily available anyway.

Ol' Ron · 07-01-2019, 05:55 PM

I'm about to pickup an engine from a 1942 Ford Ambulance. Whaat was available for this application back then? 99a? ?????

rotorwrench · 07-02-2019, 01:47 PM

It depends on whether it is pickup based delivery type or station wagon. There were also some custom body type ambulances made but I'm not sure about whether they did this with a 1942 Ford or not. Some were modified sedan bodies or sedan delivery types. More than likely it would be the 85 HP 221 unless it was a specific government contract type for the War Department. You just never know with stuff like that.

06-30-2019, 10:09 AM	#22
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Here in the US, they made a change to the blocks in late 1940 or early 1941. They eliminated the pan rail sand clean outs and they reduced the amount of iron at the top of the block so the intake deck appears to be raised. They did this on all USA engines. I don't know if the Canadian company did this at the same time or even if it was done at all on affected engines. Ford Dearborn didn't put series casting numbers on till in the post war era with the 59 series. They stamped the early 99 series to ID them until they started painting them dark blue. They stamped the LB engines to ID them back in 1935/36. Canada did follow the practice casting series ID but I don't know about wartime and I didn't know that they did them for every year either. That just doesn't make sense. Canadian engines are not very common here in the lower 48. I'm also not sure how many 99 series engines were produced in Canada. I've seen them with the raised cast "99" on them in same location as the photo on this thread of the 81. Ford & Mercury car production was likely cut short by the war in 1940 or at least reduced. I know that the C69 series Canadian engines had single shell rod bearings but I didn't know that it was done before 1946. They could be retrofitted though to some extent. I was always under the impression that the C59 series still had floaters. Now I'm always open to new information as long as it is correct in detail. There is still a lot I don't know about the Canadian engines and components. I just want facts, no rumor or innuendo. Ford USA started with the 81A 24-stud in the early part of the 1938 model year but they were still producing the old 21 stud as well for a while. I think they wanted to see if the design was going to work OK before they cast the first 99 series engines for 1939 that depended on the 24-stud design. The long snout crank had to come about for the Deluxe Ford models with the crank mounted fan in 39. The 99 series got the larger rod bearings but 81 series stayed the same for a while longer till 1942 I believe. I don't know how much of this paralleled with Canada but it likely did until the war started up in western Europe as of late September of 1939. 1940 was the crank up year. Lend lease took a while longer to get started for the US and had to pass the congress first. The US was still trying to stay out of the war. The 2-bolt distributor came along in 1942. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then. The valves in that engine don't have the Ford script. US built engines had the Ford script on intake valves at least but I don't know about Canada. That motor was likely reconditioned at some point. The block has the look of a pre-1941 USA 221 but I don't know when or if Canada changed the block at the same time as the USA. The war changed a lot of things in that time frame for Canada. Last edited by rotorwrench; 06-30-2019 at 11:12 AM.

06-30-2019, 03:38 PM	#23
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Some of the differences with Canak stuff; Starting with the LB 36 blocks, all Canadian blocks with shell mains have two 5/8 holes machined in the pan rails, I assume they were used to locate the blocks in fixtures during the machining stages. The front one of those 5/8 holes, is visible behind the front pulley, and is the quick surefire way to id whether the 36 block one is looking at is indeed an LB. 221's produced between 39-45 could be manufactured with either floater rod bearings [basic part no C01TS-6211], or locked in shells [C41A-6215] 239's made 39-45 ran floaters [C09TS-6211], whereas between 45-48 they could have also had locked in shells [C49A-6215] These locked in shells are not to be confused with 8BA style; they are thicker, and can be replaced in service with the regular floaters. __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit! Last edited by Brian; 06-30-2019 at 08:48 PM.

06-30-2019, 06:00 PM	#24
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine The C41A part number indicates 1944. Ford USA started back up on 221 production in late 1944 (41A block) but many of them have the 59 on the back even though they are 221 blocks. They continued to cast both 221 and 239 blocks for a while after the war. I have no idea how many 41A blocks were produced but they are out there. I've heard of the large shell Canadian bearings. Up in Canada, they likely used the same crank on both engines after the war when they started using those non floater bearings. Ford USA just kept on using floaters through the end of the 59 series production in late 1948. By then, they had bean producing the 8BA for the pickups and the 59A for the cars for a good part of that year. It was kind of like 1938 when they produced 21 stud and 24 stud engines at the same time for part of that year.

06-30-2019, 08:51 PM	#25
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine The Canaks used the lock in shells C49-6215 in trucks up to serial # H48-20000 [C69A engines], then from #H48-20001 used the new 8BA style engine. This also occurred during the 1948 production year __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

06-30-2019, 09:00 PM	#26
philipswanson Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bonita, CA Posts: 1,374	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) How can I tell which block I have without tearing into it? hHh

07-01-2019, 01:12 PM	#27
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine That block is perfectly adequate for any 221 application from 1938 thru WWII . For USA vehicles, it would be mostly correct for any up to and including 1940 that had an 85 HP 221. For Canadian vehicles, it may be good for any up through the end of production for wartime changeover when ever that was for Canada. It would also be good for any military vehicle of Canadian Manufacture during the war years. Folks weren't too picky about where an engine came from or what year it was. They just wanted one that would be cheap and fit without too much trouble. The only other thing you can do is see what con rods it has and that will only tell you what type of crank and bearings it has. This info isn't all that important really. When you repair one of the odd engines, you generally use the stuff that is readily available anyway.

07-01-2019, 05:55 PM	#28
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,855	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine I'm about to pickup an engine from a 1942 Ford Ambulance. Whaat was available for this application back then? 99a? ?????

07-02-2019, 01:47 PM	#29
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Update NOS WWII Engine It depends on whether it is pickup based delivery type or station wagon. There were also some custom body type ambulances made but I'm not sure about whether they did this with a 1942 Ford or not. Some were modified sedan bodies or sedan delivery types. More than likely it would be the 85 HP 221 unless it was a specific government contract type for the War Department. You just never know with stuff like that.