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Old 10-26-2019, 10:10 AM   #1
FortyNiner
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Default Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Quote:
Looking for some help from the brake experts on the Barn (that would be anyone who isn't me).

Here's the deal:

'46 Deluxe Tudor
Bone stock

As part of my resto, I replaced:
Master cylinder (twice - as part of my trouble shooting efforts)
Wheel Cylinders
All lines / hoses
Shoes
Springs

The drums were not changed.

After reassembly, I have adjusted the shoes so they are just off the drums.
The MC was bench bled
The whole system has been bled at least four times
The system doesn not leak anywhere

Here's the issue: I have very poor to no pedal pressure. if I pump the pedal a few times, the brakes will function and stop the car. Needless to say, this doesn't make for a safe ride. Searching the Barn gave me some tips - that I have followed - without real improvement.

My question: What am I missing? What did I do wrong? Should I do the Bendix conversion?

Thanks!
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Last edited by FortyNiner; 10-26-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:17 AM   #2
petehoovie
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Are you using DOT 3 or Dot 5 brake fluid?
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:30 AM   #3
FortyNiner
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Fresh DOT 3 fluid.
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:42 AM   #4
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Remove each drum and rub chalk dust on the complete surface of each brake shoe. Reinstall drums and take car for a drive making repeated stops. Then remove brake shoes and see where the chalk dust has worn off on your brake shoes, showing actual brake shoe contact with drums. Also, I have read on Fordbarn that it's a good idea to "taper" the end of each brake shoe lining so that the shoes make better contact with the drum.
Of course, the best thing to do would be to "arc" the brake shoes to make sure they "fully fit" the drums.
Others, may have better suggestions but, that's a start.
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Could still have air in system. How did you bleed them?
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Old 10-26-2019, 11:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

The MC was bench bled. The lines and wheels were bled with a helper pumping /holding the pedal as I opened and closed the bleeders that had a clear tube attached. Considerable fluid was pumped through the tube (the MC was not allowed to empty) with no signs of bubbles.
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Old 10-26-2019, 11:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

When you said all lines were replaced did that include a nice loop up and down to clear something?


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Old 10-26-2019, 11:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

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When you said all lines were replaced did that include a nice loop up and down to clear something?


Bruce
I'm not sure what you mean. The lines run true to the factory placement.
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Old 10-26-2019, 11:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Old Ford brake systems can be difficult to fully bleed because the master cylinder is below the wheel cylinders. With patience, and a couple of gallons of fluid, it can be done. Before you go further, have the system bled with a power bleeder at a shop who still knows about drum brakes. Our bleeder is a small tank on wheels that we pressurize with compressed air. Start with the wheel farthest from the master, at the right rear, and work your way forward, being sure each bleed screw is closed when done. We place a tube on the bleed screws and the other end in a clear bottle to observe any air bubbles remaining as we bleed.
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Old 10-26-2019, 12:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

I agree with the air in the lines. Air is getting trapped somewhere or is getting sucked into the system from somewhere.
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Old 10-26-2019, 12:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

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Originally Posted by supereal View Post
Old Ford brake systems can be difficult to fully bleed because the master cylinder is below the wheel cylinders. With patience, and a couple of gallons of fluid, it can be done. Before you go further, have the system bled with a power bleeder at a shop who still knows about drum brakes. Our bleeder is a small tank on wheels that we pressurize with compressed air. Start with the wheel farthest from the master, at the right rear, and work your way forward, being sure each bleed screw is closed when done. We place a tube on the bleed screws and the other end in a clear bottle to observe any air bubbles remaining as we bleed.
Excellent! Thanks for the guidance.
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Old 10-26-2019, 01:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Gratuitous beauty shot.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20191018_081654747-1024x768a.jpg (99.7 KB, 234 views)
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Old 10-26-2019, 02:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Did you have the shoes arced to the drums and how far out are the drums? Hold off on the Bendix conversion, it is nice but $$$. Your brakes should work when you figure out the problem.

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Old 10-26-2019, 02:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

did you adjust the brake pedal to mc rod correctly? should have a little rattle and no end play when adjust correctly. pedal should move just a little before slack is gone
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Old 10-26-2019, 02:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

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Originally Posted by FortyNiner View Post
Gratuitous beauty shot.

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Old 10-26-2019, 02:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

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Originally Posted by FortyNiner View Post


Should I do the Bendix conversion?

Thanks!

You sure will like the Bendix brakes....you'll never look back. If that's what you decide on, DON'T attempt to save a few bucks by going any of the "cheapie" routes. Go to and order from MT Car Products. There is another "big name" outfit selling similar Lincoln-type Bendix brakes and many folks are having trouble with their brake drums of unknown origin. Go look at genuine MT Car Products pieces in the link below! The best part...these Bendix brakes function really well when used on the FRONT of your Ford in conjunction with the ORIGINAL, stock brakes in the rear since the rears apply such a small percentage of the overall braking effect. DD


http://www.mtcarproducts.com/productsgrid.html
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Old 10-26-2019, 03:00 PM   #17
FortyNiner
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

I didn't have the shoes arced or the drums turned or checked. The MC rod was adjusted to minimize play. Once I have a more firm pedal, I'm expecting to encounter the next layer of issues. Will keep these in mind going forward. Appreciate the input.
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Last edited by FortyNiner; 10-27-2019 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 10-26-2019, 03:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Charlie brings up a good point regarding the drums. Even though you did not turn them they may have been turned before and turned too far.
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Old 10-26-2019, 11:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

Contact the local Early Ford V8 Club and the local Model A Ford Club and find out who the members use for brakes. There are a lot of Model A Fords that have been converted to the later hydraulics like yours. Finding someone to work on your brakes will be difficult. Most shops no longer have the special adapter to turn the rear hub. Most of the shoe arcing machines have been taken out of service due to OSHA requirements to fit them with special filters to trap dust. Don't take them to a shop that doesn't know how to work on the early Ford brakes, they can do a lot of damage. It will take a little chasing around but I really think it is the solution to your problem. Please keep us posted.

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Old 10-27-2019, 06:09 AM   #20
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Default Re: Make it Stop! ('46 Deluxe)

When you adjust the brake cams do have some drag to each shoe.
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