Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model T (1909-1927)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2019, 11:03 AM   #1
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Model T Sparkplugs

Hello,


Where can I obtain a list of what spark plugs can be used in a 1923 Model T? I have a few boxes, bags and buckets of brand new plugs, some still in the boxes that I am hoping will work in my speedster. Some of them Splitdorf, Firestone, Wards, Champion, Aldor, Luthy, Stitt, Fyrac, Fan Flame, etc. I did find some Champion X, and aren't those what was originally used? I think what is in the car right now are A-25(?) Champions, and I would like to change them out because they seem to be somewhat fouled.


Thank you in advance for the assistance.


Jeff
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 12:01 PM   #2
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: oregon
Posts: 3,966
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

You have a perfect chance to try different plugs and give us a report on how they all worked in your car. Fouling is not only caused by the plug so check other things such a carb and timing.
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-08-2019, 01:32 PM   #3
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Franklin View Post
You have a perfect chance to try different plugs and give us a report on how they all worked in your car. Fouling is not only caused by the plug so check other things such a carb and timing.

So will any plug work as long as it is 1/2" plug thread and not deeper than the model X into the head? That is why I am looking for a list of acceptable plugs, if there is such a thing.


The fouling could be operator error on my part because I am just learning to drive this car.



Thank you,


Jeff
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 07:10 PM   #4
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 4,658
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Yes to the 1/2 thread plugs and deeper part. No there is no list. Like oil there are many opinions of what works well in someones car. What works well for me does not mean it will work well for you.

Fouling could be from running too rich, but could be other things.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2019, 01:33 AM   #5
dumb person
Senior Member
 
dumb person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: South pacific island
Posts: 1,585
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Pretty much any will work, i use A-25 as that's often all i can find.
The good thing about those plugs in champion X and A25 are resistant to heat and big enough you can clean the tips with a propane or MAPP gas torch if you're careful.

Don't rub them with a wire brush though. I've done that & the metal particles stay embedded a long time.
__________________
<Link> This is how we roll<Link>

"I'm Convinced that no one really reads posts anymore; they just fabricate what they think the post says then ramble on about red herrings."--Bob
Outcasts rules of old cars
#1 Fun is imperative, mainstream is overrated
#2 If they think it is impossible, prove them wrong
#3 If the science says it impossible you are not being creative enough.
#4 No shame in recreating something you never had
#5 If it were not for the law & physics you would be unstoppable
dumb person is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2019, 01:56 PM   #6
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumb person View Post
Pretty much any will work, i use A-25 as that's often all i can find.
The good thing about those plugs in champion X and A25 are resistant to heat and big enough you can clean the tips with a propane or MAPP gas torch if you're careful.

Don't rub them with a wire brush though. I've done that & the metal particles stay embedded a long time.



What about using a rag or paper towel? I have never cleaned a plug with a torch. Do you just stick the flame down in the plug end?


Thank you,


Jeff
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2019, 01:57 PM   #7
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

After a log of digging it appears that Autolite 3095 & Motorcraft F11 are possibly direct replacements. Can anyone please confirm?


Thank you,


Jeff
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 10:41 AM   #8
stevests
Senior Member
 
stevests's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Longbranch, Washington
Posts: 259
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Yes, they are.
stevests is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 02:42 PM   #9
M2M
Senior Member
 
M2M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AUSTRALIA/USA/EU/RUSSIA
Posts: 821
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

You should make a list and take photos of the NOS plugs you have. You could make a bit of money depending on what exactly you have.
__________________

M2M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 03:17 PM   #10
oreofred
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Greensboro NC
Posts: 5
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Hi Jeff do you have in your treasure chest the out part of the 2 piece champion X - i have four new NOS cores I picked in my travels I would like to use..
Thanks Stuart
oreofred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 05:07 PM   #11
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 4,658
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Unless you have sealing washers with the cores or can find bodies with good ones in them..well lets just say there is more to putting plugs together then just installing new cores.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 09:16 PM   #12
dumb person
Senior Member
 
dumb person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: South pacific island
Posts: 1,585
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedster Jeff View Post
What about using a rag or paper towel? I have never cleaned a plug with a torch. Do you just stick the flame down in the plug end?


Thank you,


Jeff
A rag or paper towel will remove loose carbon. Some people have access to chemicals to loosen carbon. I have never tried oven cleaner but it might help, or not.

I put the flame down the end of the plug.
__________________
<Link> This is how we roll<Link>

"I'm Convinced that no one really reads posts anymore; they just fabricate what they think the post says then ramble on about red herrings."--Bob
Outcasts rules of old cars
#1 Fun is imperative, mainstream is overrated
#2 If they think it is impossible, prove them wrong
#3 If the science says it impossible you are not being creative enough.
#4 No shame in recreating something you never had
#5 If it were not for the law & physics you would be unstoppable
dumb person is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 02:36 PM   #13
Royce P
Senior Member
 
Royce P's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 447
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

The Autolite 3095 and Champion F11 plugs are 1/2" pipe thread spark plugs made to service a lot of older applications that use such a spark plug. They are much colder heat range than Champion X or other period spark plugs. So they foul much more easily in a Model T. A better approach is to clean and re - use original spark plugs from the era. They will last a long time between cleanings. In my experience they tend to never foul so long as there is nothing major wrong with the engine.


I find that chemicals designed for cleaning guns work very well on spark plugs for removing carbon and soot / fuel deposits. Here is a little write up:
https://modeltfordfix.com/cleaning-t...rk-plug-t1386/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedster Jeff View Post
After a log of digging it appears that Autolite 3095 & Motorcraft F11 are possibly direct replacements. Can anyone please confirm?


Thank you,


Jeff
__________________
1910 Touring
1914 Touring
1915 Touring
1917 Torpedo Runabout
Royce P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 01:33 PM   #14
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by oreofred View Post
Hi Jeff do you have in your treasure chest the out part of the 2 piece champion X - i have four new NOS cores I picked in my travels I would like to use..
Thanks Stuart

I do not, sorry.
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 01:36 PM   #15
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2M View Post
You should make a list and take photos of the NOS plugs you have. You could make a bit of money depending on what exactly you have.

I have had most of this from when I was a kid and would go on "rusty iron" trips with my dad to buy stuff and drag it home. Just like dad, I really don't get rid of anything, and my boys like this stuff also, so they can fight over it when I'm gone someday. I'm almost 50, so I hope to enjoy it another 30 years or so... lol.
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 01:42 PM   #16
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royce P View Post
The Autolite 3095 and Champion F11 plugs are 1/2" pipe thread spark plugs made to service a lot of older applications that use such a spark plug. They are much colder heat range than Champion X or other period spark plugs. So they foul much more easily in a Model T. A better approach is to clean and re - use original spark plugs from the era. They will last a long time between cleanings. In my experience they tend to never foul so long as there is nothing major wrong with the engine.


I find that chemicals designed for cleaning guns work very well on spark plugs for removing carbon and soot / fuel deposits. Here is a little write up:
https://modeltfordfix.com/cleaning-t...rk-plug-t1386/



What makes the heat range lower on a spark plug? Can something be added in between the wire and plug to boost the heat range on new plugs? I would rather leave these plugs in my collection and use new plugs and have to change them out once a year verses using these nos plugs.



Thank you.
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 06:31 PM   #17
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,401
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Heat range is mostly about how fast a plug dissipates heat. The faster it does that then the colder the plug is. It is controlled by the design of the ceramic insulator that is inside the combustion chamber. The more insulation, the smaller the space is between the insulator and the inner barrel of the threaded portion of the plug.

A hotter plug will have more space in there and less insulator around the electrode. The hotter plug heats up faster and will burn out more combustion bi-products than a colder plug will. If a plug fouls more than it should, a hotter plug would be in order to decrease fouling. The problem is, I don't know if there are any hotter ones made in this day and age. A person has to find an old Champion 30 or 31 set that still works or live with what they have.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-14-2019 at 06:36 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 08:13 PM   #18
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: oregon
Posts: 3,966
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Champion X
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:07 AM   #19
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,401
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

I think the Champion X spark plugs made today are closer to the old Champion part number 25 and they are likely cooler than the old part number 30. Now days they just have the one plug.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-15-2019 at 10:39 AM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 12:04 PM   #20
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: oregon
Posts: 3,966
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
I think the Champion X spark plugs made today are closer to the old Champion part number 25 and they are likely cooler than the old part number 30. Now days they just have the one plug.
Do you have any evidence to support your opinion? I use X in the T, and 3X in my A and they run better than other plugs I have used.
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 02:53 PM   #21
dumb person
Senior Member
 
dumb person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: South pacific island
Posts: 1,585
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedster Jeff View Post
What makes the heat range lower on a spark plug? Can something be added in between the wire and plug to boost the heat range on new plugs? I would rather leave these plugs in my collection and use new plugs and have to change them out once a year verses using these nos plugs.



Thank you.
I have used motorcraft F11 that people people discard.
A slightly leaner mixture will keep them cleaner. Too lean will melt/crack them, as it would any plug.
If you burn lots of oil they might still foul but i never found this to be a problem.
__________________
<Link> This is how we roll<Link>

"I'm Convinced that no one really reads posts anymore; they just fabricate what they think the post says then ramble on about red herrings."--Bob
Outcasts rules of old cars
#1 Fun is imperative, mainstream is overrated
#2 If they think it is impossible, prove them wrong
#3 If the science says it impossible you are not being creative enough.
#4 No shame in recreating something you never had
#5 If it were not for the law & physics you would be unstoppable
dumb person is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 09:15 AM   #22
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,401
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

I've seen the X plugs referred to as 425 and 525 depending on the year of manufacture but the 525 is likely the single piece type but same heat range. There is a lot of unknown history on the Champion Model T plugs. The only way to know for sure is to compare plugs with other known part numbers from back in the day. One thing is for certain, Champion only makes the one OEM style plug design and there is no mention of its properties as far as heat range. This leaves a lot of unanswered questions that I have about them. On a recently overhauled engine that is broken in well with minimal oil consumption, the plugs will likely work just as intended. It's when there is more oil consumption or blow by and the plugs have a tendency to foul that a person would even consider a hotter plug. This can also apply to folks that modify the engine to get more compression or just for more performance overall. They just have to take what's available since there are not too many choices in this day and age.

I've heard folks making statements about the insulators getting loose in the non disassemblable type plugs like the Motorcraft F11 or Autolite 3095 when they are hot. That is brought about by the size of the plug and unequal expansion rates of materials. Watching them wiggle about would be sort of unnerving. The original style Champion design seems to have a check on that.

We pay over a 100 bucks each for fine wire iridium electrode plugs for the helicopters so that makes 36 bucks each seem cheap. We have two plugs per cylinder so 8 sparkplugs for a 4-cylinder can get expensive. Even worse for the 6-cylinder engines that go well over a 1000 bucks for a set.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-17-2019 at 02:01 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-17-2019, 01:19 PM   #23
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

My car has an after market distributor and Champion A-25 plugs. Would the distributor require a different set of plugs?


Thank you.
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2019, 01:59 PM   #24
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,401
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

The plugs will likely fire whether they have a single coil with a distributor or the original 4-coils and a timer. The principle is similar but a single coil won't put out a shower of sparks like an old trembler coil will. The Model T used the 1/2 NPT thread plug so there are not a lot of choices about what plug is used. If an aftermarket head was set up for 7/8 thread plugs like a model A XXX or the H-10 plug like a flathead V8 then a person could use those plugs. Otherwise it's use what you got.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-20-2019 at 08:34 AM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2019, 05:22 PM   #25
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 4,658
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

You can use the 14MM adapters and your heat range of different plugs really increases. No plug hot or cold is going to stay clean if the engine is running rich or burning a lot of oil. Also running at the best advance for running condition with the distributor (or timer) helps. Cleaning your plugs is just part of the fun in owning these old cars. No matter what plugs you use, No 1 runs cold and No 4 runs hot so you have to find a balance.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 08:32 AM   #26
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,401
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

The adapter bushings remind me of the use of some like them that were made to use in oil burner engines to keep them from fouling. It can make them run hotter depending on the design of the threaded bushing. If the design was such that the plug tip was well positioned in the combustion chamber then it wouldn't run any hotter than the plug design allows. Done correctly, it would be an option for those that want to modify the T engine and use a more modern ignition system.

For those that like the T the way it is then don't bother to fix what ain't broken. Trembler coils worked well on low compression engines of the era. At least replacement plugs are still available.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 02:19 PM   #27
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

When talking about burning oil, are you talking about blow-by?


Thank you,


Jeff
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 02:23 PM   #28
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

The engine does not suffer from blow-by because the engine was rebuilt when the car was restored. My neighbor was a machinist, and I spoke to him in-depth last week on what all he did to the engine when he restored it and the amount of work was quite significant. Probably the neatest thing he said was, when he restored it, fellow machine shop employees were much older than him and they had rebuilt many T's and other various "antique" engines when they were not antique, so he incorporated many items per their suggestions into the rebuild that they had figured out over the years to make the cars run better and last longer. One item that stood out, was that he made the holes in the block and head much larger, including the space between the two center cylinders (it is a larger opening like at the ends now) allowing the coolant to flow more freely and adding to the amount of volume. He also added a n.o.s. water pump at the time and many other internal items such as knurlling the new pistons after they bored the cylinders over so they would hold oil better, adding Chevy dippers to the rods, and the list goes on. I can drive the car down here in Florida in 95 degree weather and it doesn't get into the little circle in the motor meter unless I stop and leave the engine running for quite some time.



He had multiple cars, and since this car only seated two, it didn't get as much use as the others so it isn't really worn out like other T engines I have seen over the years. The shops were neat, and as a kid, I loved watching them grind crank shafts because I just loved seeing all of that mass going around and yet the item they were grinding was ending up round. It took me years to understand how they did that when I was really small. It was neat growing up around those shops, and there isn't anything around like that now. Everything is farmed out to somewhere else.


I drive it nearly every weekend unless the weather does not allow. We usually drive it at least 20 miles on Friday nights, and sometimes we drive it as much as we can until momma gets on my son and I about not getting enough of the chores done. lol
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2019, 09:16 AM   #29
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,401
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs

As an engines piston rings wear, the oil control ring or rings can lose there effectiveness. More oil will stay on the cylinder wall and end up in the combustion chamber. This can also happen if a car isn't well stored and the cylinders corrode. The build up of corrosion pitting will make it difficult for the oil scrapers to do their job.

Blow by is from wear on the compression rings that allows combustion pressures to go past the rings and pressure up the crank case a bit. This will lead to oil vapor exiting the crankcase vent and is also a form of oil consumption due to all the heat that builds up in the crank case. This just vaporizes more crankcase oil.

I've heard a lot of old wives tales (mechanics tales) about model T engines. Folks tried all sorts of things to gain improvement of performance. Whether they were effective or not has yet to be seen. The water pump installations are also a point of contention. Some swear by them and some swear at them and take them back off.

The main thing is that the car is still functioning and is used regularly with proper scheduled maintenance. The 92+ to well over 100 year old cars are still around as examples of the reason that Ford was so successful back in the day. The simplicity like that just isn't known in this day and age.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 07:56 PM   #30
Speedster Jeff
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 17
Default Re: Model T Sparkplugs


This is our 1923 speedster.
Speedster Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:58 AM.