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Old 09-26-2019, 05:51 AM   #1
Juggler
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Default Holes drilled in dipper tray

I took the motor out of my Coupe (nothing wrong with it - swapped for rebuilt full pressure ohv) and Dear Old Dad decided to drop the pan and check the bottom end with a view to putting it in the '30 Roadster he's building from the ground up.

Found to be all good, clean bores and shims all still present, but somebody in before us has drilled/punched 4 holes in the dipper tray.





We can't figure what the benefit of that might be and will probably just weld them back up. Was this a thing back in the day? Car originally came down from Nebraska if that makes any difference.

Many thanks
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

Weld them shut!
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:48 AM   #3
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

I would leave them as-is. Won't hurt a thing. The dipper wells are the only area where the rod dipper needs to initially contact (scoop) oil during start-up. From there the oil pump will replenish faster than the holes will drain.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

I understand that they won't hurt - just wondered why anybody would do it in the first place?
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

its splitting hairs,but those holes lower the level of oil the rod splashes through..splash oil is a big part of engine lubrication design.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

IIRC, they may be OEM. Certainly about lowering the level to reduce splash and windage.

Page 576 of the Service Bulletins talks about "lowering" the dipper tray. "And other modifications." (including the oil pump shaft shield.)

I would leave. You might put off having to go with one of those "oil breather" type oil fill tube tops for a bit longer.

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Old 09-26-2019, 08:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

in looking at the evolution of the dipper tray, and mentions of changes to help oil consumption my thoughts are the oil pump shield was also used in the time frame of holes in dipper tray---being that the center cam bearing is pressure oiled it can also "leak", and if the clearance gets about .005 the bearing clearance area is about the same as the oil discharge pipe in the valve chamber ----so the shield insures that all the oil hits the tray ----this keeps the dipper troughs filled, to limit the tray from being overfilled at multiple angles holes were added,
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:55 AM   #8
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

Here are some more dipper trays.


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Old 09-26-2019, 11:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

I'm not a big fan of the holes in the low point of the dipper troughs,[ bottom pic ] When sitting the oil will drain leaving the rod bearings to run dry for the time it takes for the oil pump to fill them. Its the dry running of bearings I'm not a fan of. Those 4 holes I'd braze.
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Old 09-26-2019, 01:20 PM   #10
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

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I'm not a big fan of the holes in the low point of the dipper troughs,[ bottom pic ] When sitting the oil will drain leaving the rod bearings to run dry for the time it takes for the oil pump to fill them. Its the dry running of bearings I'm not a fan of. Those 4 holes I'd braze.


I guess I am missing it. Which one has holes at the bottom of the well that would cause the oil to leak out?





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Old 09-26-2019, 01:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

I remember a friend that has been long pasted on told me he raced model A's down in Texas in the days of model A's. He told me the secret of running them was to drill more and bigger holes in the splash tray so the oil ran back down in the bottom of the pan quicker. I have never came across one that has been drilled yet. I wonder if oil built up in this area and caused oil flooding. May have just been someone's big idea.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:13 PM   #12
Patrick L.
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juggler View Post
I took the motor out of my Coupe (nothing wrong with it - swapped for rebuilt full pressure ohv) and Dear Old Dad decided to drop the pan and check the bottom end with a view to putting it in the '30 Roadster he's building from the ground up.

Found to be all good, clean bores and shims all still present, but somebody in before us has drilled/punched 4 holes in the dipper tray.





We can't figure what the benefit of that might be and will probably just weld them back up. Was this a thing back in the day? Car originally came down from Nebraska if that makes any difference.

Many thanks



Lower picture.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:30 PM   #13
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

They serve no valid purpose.

The holes in the dipper tray, cuts back considerably, the oil available to continually feed the dipper tray. Bad idea.

I think that it was one time, a write-in mechanics tip in some Tips, and Tricks Magazine.

If when building a Model T Speedster, it was recommended you put a 1/2 inch high dam in the back of the pan to raise the oil level to feed the rods more oil at high speeds, that does work very well.

My guess, it was done to cut back the oil splash under the pistons, there for cutting oil burning on wore out pistons, and rings.

But these holes, are going the wrong way, by dropping the oil level. Not Good, No warranty !

Herm.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:02 AM   #14
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

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Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post

My guess, it was done to cut back the oil splash under the pistons, there for cutting oil burning on wore out pistons, and rings.

But these holes, are going the wrong way, by dropping the oil level. Not Good, No warranty !

Herm.
My Grandfather was a mechanic at a Ford dealership when Model A's were new. My Dad started working with him as a teenager. My Dad told me the above was the reason for the holes in the tray.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:48 AM   #15
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

The weird 'thing' about dipper trays, at least to me (and I understand their function I get it) is that when the Boss 302 motors hit the street they had a WINDAGE tray to keep the oil in place. sort of, when hard cornering and acceleration was put to the motor. When I was a Parts Mgr. at the local Ford dealer back then I was ordering windage tray hardware, regularly, for the guys who were drag racing. They didn't like re-using the hardware.

Do you suppose Mr. Ford foresaw THAT type of racing application in the Model A
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Old 09-26-2019, 04:45 PM   #16
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

Thanks Herm, and everybody else

In reality we'll just put another tray in from the pile, sans perforations

Brett and Patrick - there's no hole in the bottom of the well although it does look like it in the pic. It's a spot of oil that Dad missed, and a trick of the light

Cheers

A
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Old 09-26-2019, 04:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

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Originally Posted by Juggler View Post
Thanks Herm, and everybody else

In reality we'll just put another tray in from the pile, sans perforations

Brett and Patrick - there's no hole in the bottom of the well although it does look like it in the pic. It's a spot of oil that Dad missed, and a trick of the light

Cheers

A


AH, OK. That makes sense as there isn't a 'hole' in the adjacent dipper tray.
Sure looks like its a drilled hole though doesn't it.
So, then, I agree that the holes on the top of the tray won't hurt.
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

Ford punched drain holes in upper part of the Model-B dipper tray for a reason. Drain holes were also built into the bottom of the valve chamber to permit more oil to pass into the dipper tray from above. The Model-B engine was introduced as "the improved 4-cylinder engine".
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

Most Model B engines came from the factory with (I think 4) 4 holes about 1" in diameter, purpose, I'm not sure but no need to weld the ones you have shut.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:41 PM   #20
Bob C
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Default Re: Holes drilled in dipper tray

Vince has some information on his site about the holes. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/boilpans.htm


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