Help! Flooding or Timing?

[Don_M]

Good evening. I am working on restoring my father's 1931 model A. We restored it in the late 70s and last had it running well about 10 years ago, but he developed dementia and passed away a couple of years ago. It did not have much care over the last 6-7 years. Currently, I cannot get the engine to start. I have replaced the points, rotor, condenser, coil, distributor, and plugs. I believe I have set the points and timing correctly. We never were able to find the "dimple" in the flywheel, but we always used the "pencil" in cylinder 1 to find tdc. I have a good blue spark on all plugs. I cleaned the carb and the float floats and opens and closes correctly. Gas flows well, the tank was emptied 10 years ago, there is no rust or dirt. When I attempt to start I usually get nothing unless I open the choke and give it full gas and I get a few pops and puffs of exhaust out of the carb. My first thought was it was flooding, but there is no gas on the plugs. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I would like my fathers help, but I hope someone else can assist. Don.

[Tinker]

Sorry to hear about your father. Working on the car will bring memories.

Might be some hung up valves. Making compression non exsistant.

Pull plugs and soak the cyclinders and valves in something like mmo for a bit. Once it runs things will loosen up and then you can really dig in.

Always best to do one thing at a time. Simple engines that want to run. So simple sometimes they are complicate.

[Don_M]

Thanks Tinker. I did that already, did not use Marvel, I believe the stuff was from Rislone. However, I did the "old timey" test on each of the cylinders, try to hold your thumb over the plug hole while cranking. Each of the cylinders had good compression based upon this highly scientific method. I will try the mmo, it was a month ago that I checked compression, maybe something has happened in the meantime.

Also, thanks for the condolences

Don

[Tinker]

air-fuel-spark

I'd try either some starter fuel or go over timing again

[Tom Wesenberg]

The dimple is in the cam gear and not the flywheel. You remove and flip over the bolt sticking out on the cam gear cover, then press it into the gear as you slowly hand crank the engine. When the timing pin falls into the dimple the rotor should be exactly as this picture shows, and with the freeplay on the leading side of the rotor. The rotor turns CCW.

A lot of people always replace a bunch of parts after a car has been in storage for some time, but this is a waste of money and may make matters worse. The timing doesn't change during storage, and the plugs, coil, and points don't go bad during storage. The points likely may need the contacts cleaned. A condenser may go bad during long term storage, but even that would be very rare. The new heatproof condersers will probably outlast me.

[C26Pinelake]

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The timing is a great place to start. Also you might look up a helping hand from a local car / Model A club.
Good luck ! Wayne

[Don_M]

Tom, thanks. I apologize, I meant cam gear. However, I have never been able to find that dimple. Usually I would believe it was just me, but my Dad was never able to either. I have used the bolt you mentioned and used a bolt ground down to a sharper point.

I replaced the points and condenser (one of the new ones that are combined on one plate) because the condenser had some rust and I could not get a spark initially when opening the points. I eventually replaced the distributor because I had spark coming from only 3 of the "things" on the distributor. I could not get a reading on the old coil so I replaced it also. I cracked one of the plugs when checking their gap, so I just replaced them all. I have been replacing as I find things not working or I break them.

Don

[Don_M]

Thanks Wayne. I will try the timing again, but not with much anticipation of success.

I live in a rural area, the closest Model A club is 3 hours away.

Don

[Tinker]

With the pencil test how do you know your on tdc 1 compression stroke?

[daveymc29]

I'm sure you know this, but it sometimes gets missed. There are two top dead centers, only one follows a compression stroke. That is the one that is used for timing. Not being a know it all, just another thing to be sure of. If the car ran before storage, it probably will again, just a matter of getting all the right things happening at the correct time.
Sorry to hear about your dad, I know the grief that goes with a family member with dementia, we've had three so far. Wishing you the best of good luck.

[Don_M]

Tinker, I knew it was timed OK 10 years ago so I cranked until the rotor was at the number 1 spot on the distributor and just used the pencil to make sure.

[Don_M]

Thanks Davey. I appreciate your thoughts.

[Tinker]

I would think that'd probably get you in the ballpark, Enough to start anyway.

[Don_M]

You guys are making me think I may be at the exhaust compression tdc. I had not thought of that, dur. I believe my Dad may have "worked" on the Model A and he could have made some mistakes. I found some other things that seemed odd or out of place.

Thanks, tomorrow I will try changing the timing. That could explain my problem.

[Don_M]

Goodnight all and thanks again. I will let you know what happens.

[Rex_A_Lott]

Sorry to hear about your Dad. I have been down that road, and it is not a pleasant one.
Do you have a spark at all? I'd check that first. Worry about the timing second.
You have to have them both, of course, but trying to time a non-existant spark can be frustrating.
Check to see that you have fire at the points....switch on, just open and close the points with your hand or a screwdriver.
If you have a good strong spark, then work on the timing. If not, then work on that first.
Good Luck

[RUNNERBUN]

Don, you can check if you are on compression stroke on number one cylinder quite easily. Remove all spark plugs to make turning the motor over more easily. Place a finger over the number one plug hole while turning engine over with the crank handle. You will feel the compression pushing your finger up as the piston moves up on compression. If you are in the ball park your rotor will be pointing at the correct terminal on your distributor cap when the piston reaches top dead centre.

[heneste]

As you had it running ok when you stored it, is there a possibility that the exhaust may be blocked by a mouse nest or other critter? One of our club members couldn't get his car started until he disconnected the exhaust from the exhaust manifold and discovered his exhaust wasn't allowing any exhaust through it.

[Don_M]

Woo hoo. Thanks to you guys!!

I got it running tonight, it ran for about 10-15 mins smooth as slick. I did have the timing incorrect, it was on the exhaust stroke. (I won't tell you all that it ran for about 1 minute and stopped and I spent 15 mins looking for problems until I discovered the gas tank was empty). Dur.

I do have lots more work, I have a water leak and the some other issues, but I am just overjoyed that the engine is running.

YOU GUYS ROCK!!

[Mike V. Florida]

Glad to hear you got her running.