Repop Ammeter Junk

[dpson]

I just purchased one of the newest repop 20 amp ammeters for around $8 and it's a piece of junk. The tabs on the bezel don't match the cutouts in the instrument panel, the "glass" is now a thin piece of plastic, if you tip it too far forward or upside down the needle falls out (it can be put back in but you need to take it apart to do it). I fiddled with it for a long time and finally threw it in the trash. Does anyone have a quality replacement?

I believe I can speak for others in the hobby, we would be happy to pay more for a quality unit!

[big job]

Welcome to the modern world of junk made in a grass hut with dirt floors !!!

[marty in Ohio]

A few years ago I bought one, just like the one you had, from a very reputable retailer parts dealer and the same thing happened. I called the supplier and they said they would refund my money. I asked if they wanted the defective part back. They said just throw it out.
Marty

[Joe K]

I first bought the $8 aluminum ammeter, then I bit the bullet and bought the $18.95 black and silver "exact copy" sold by a high-end vendor.

Examining the better quality meter I was impressed by the attention to detail. Well made it seemed to have the D'arsonval movement of a high quality meter. One had to buy the original "thumb-nuts" separately - but at least they were available.

I was excited by what I received - until I went to put it in the panel hole. Like the OP, I found the diameter did not match the hole in the dash, and the meter, even with ears bent out, would not hold in the dash.

Contacting the seller, I questioned him about the issue. "Its the best we can get today and we're aware of the problem. ONe solution we've found that works is to back up the meter with a rubber O-ring - set it so it 'catches' on the bent ears and that will hold it in place in the dash."

Well - they could have warned of the issue in the catalog - it might save them from the unwanted effort answering phone calls and dealing with returned items.

I ended up with the O-ring. It works - but its not right or original.

Joe K

[Nosetime]

Bought one a couple years ago, took one look and trash canned. Buy them at the swaps whenever I find one, New old stock in box are out there on occasion.

[alexiskai]

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I like Bratton's disclosure on the unit: "This is a fair repro but all that is currently available." Bert's says "These are made in China, and they work, but are not perfect. None have been made in the USA for the last 20 years."

I wonder if we could get these to work - they seem to be about the right size, and if they can be adapted for either 12V or 24V then maybe they can be adapted for 6V.
https://fariabeede.com/2-pages/prod_...auge=1_ammeter

[chrs1961815]

Originals are out there, that is the good news. More good news is that someone I think was trying to get together the supplies for an accurate reproduction recently. Don't know if that project got shelved or what.

[1928Mik]

I might have a 2 or 3 NOS extras in my Dad's old stash. PM me if interested and I'll go hunting for you.

[rotorwrench]

You know it when you find an original. The movement is very sensitive on them. Move the body just a little it and the needle really moves. I'm just surprised than of all the cheap crap replicas over the years, no one thought about going that step further and having them made correctly by a company with the capability to make a decent product.

[Russ/40]

I'm using a repo from the 70 's. So far ok but as said, a poor fit.

[Joe K]

This ammeter, at $9500 is definitely NOT junk.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Model-A-Ins...373b673d78579d

Better hurry, only 1 left, 63 sold.

After 64 are sold, he can buy the $608,000 town car he always wanted.

Joe K

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

You know it when you find an original. The movement is very sensitive on them. Move the body just a little it and the needle really moves. I'm just surprised than of all the cheap crap replicas over the years, no one thought about going that step further and having them made correctly by a company with the capability to make a decent product.

Motorwrench, please don't take this as criticism.
Everybody seems to blame those who make this rubbish but I think the problem is as much with the owners of these cars and the vendors who accept it and do not insist on a quality item when they order it and don't check it when it arrives. If a vendor was serious about quality (and therefore their own reputation) and they deal directly with the manufacturer, they would word their contract with detailed specifications and so that products that don't meet specs will be returned at the maker's expense. They will soon perform.
That said, there is also some responsibility for the situation that comes to us. If we keep buying junk, the vendors will keep selling it. It is only when a vendor's profits are affected that they will improve - remember those crappy tubes we all had a few years ago. One vendor saw the opportunity and had them made properly and no doubt did very well out of it. The other vendors were stuck with the junk but soon also had good tubes. Had we kept buying the junk, they would still be selling it.
I'm not a fan of the Chinese manufacturers and their Chinglish instructions but they make to a price. If we want quality, we will have to pay for it. Too many of us are so short sighted that we don't see good quality is still there long after the price is forgotten.
I'll get down off ny soapbox now!

[walkerlakeprinter]

Originally Posted by Joe K

This ammeter, at $9500 is definitely NOT junk.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Model-A-Ins...373b673d78579d

Better hurry, only 1 left, 63 sold.

After 64 are sold, he can buy the $608,000 town car he always wanted.

Joe K

63 sold at $9,500 a pop? With 100% buyer satisfaction? I guess I am not familiar with anyone who would do that! I'm surprised that Ebay doesn't have "common sense" warnings on some of these. I buy stuff all the time on Ebay and have been burned a few times, but live and learn! But not at $9500.....!!!!!

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I wonder if we could get these to work - they seem to be about the right size, and if they can be adapted for either 12V or 24V then maybe they can be adapted for 6V.
https://fariabeede.com/2-pages/prod_...auge=1_ammeter

I'm not sure but I don't think a 2" gauge is going to fit in a 1⅝" hole...

[dpson]

I also saw that $9500 ammeter and was scratching my head, but if you go to that vendors "store" you will find roughly 25 other simple items with $9500 - $10,000 BIN price tags. The only thing I can guess is that eBay must offer some type of deal to sellers who have over $250,000 of advertised merchandise, so to meet this they artificially jack up the prices of a few items. Just a guess on my part and if anyone has a better explanation let me know.

Here's the link to the eBay listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Model-A-Ins...4AAOSweW5VB4J8

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

I'm not sure but I don't think a 2" gauge is going to fit in a 1⅝" hole...

Well sure but I mean you might be able to mount it behind the hole and make do. My point wasn't "Here's an exact solution," my point was "this seems like a quality instrument that could be adapted to work if no other adequate component can be found."

[updraught]

Now the Chinese are paying the tarifs, maybe they will fix it.

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Well sure but I mean you might be able to mount it behind the hole and make do. My point wasn't "Here's an exact solution," my point was "this seems like a quality instrument that could be adapted to work if no other adequate component can be found."

That one appears to be a voltmeter with amps dial, usually used for current measurement in the hundreds of amps. (I'll spare you the detailed explanation.) It could be modified for 6V I'm sure, but I wouldn't mess with it.

You want a 20 amp meter for a model A, anything more just makes you squint. If your battery charge shows more than +/- 15A, there's something wrong.

[Terry, NJ]

I had a meter from an old Mercedes on mine for a while, but I wasn't registering anything so I replaced it, but the fit was good.
Terry

[Y-Blockhead]

This thread prompted me to write to Stewart-Warner about possibly looking into making a 1⅝" ammeter for the Ford Model A. I'm sure I would get a similar response from other manufacturers as the 2" gauge size is the standard size and retooling would be needed. It would have to be a relatively shallow gauge also to prevent contact with the gas tank.

Their response;

Dennis,

Unfortunately, the cost of tooling a new case and movement far exceeds the projected sales of this product. As such, it would not make sense for us to produce the part. Thank you for reaching out to us about this, though. We always appreciate suggestions from customers, especially loyal customers like yourself. Without customer input, we could very easily miss the mark on what customers are after.

Chris
Engineering Technician
Stewart Warner.

[rotorwrench]

What happened to finding a cheaper way to tool up. When even the Chinese don't want to make them one then it boils down to the fact that they just don't want to mess with it. Typical corporate response. If they can't make but loads then they don't want to touch it.

It would take a hobby guy in his garage to make one for himself, then make one for a friend, and so on. The armature would be the hardest part to make. Install that in a can made to actually fit the dash. A person could likely use off the shelf parts if they were pretty close to the correct size. NOS or good used is the only way until they are all gone.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

What happened to finding a cheaper way to tool up. When even the Chinese don't want to make them one then it boils down to the fact that they just don't want to mess with it. Typical corporate response. If they can't make but loads then they don't want to touch it.

I didn't post their response to Bad Mouth Stewart Warner. I asked if they had ever considered making a 1⅝" gauge to fit the Model A. They gave an honest answer and I accept that. They aren't in business to NOT make money.

[Tom Endy]

One of the advantages of an original ammeter is that they are undamped and the needle easily swings with the slightest current movement. This provides a good diagnostic tool. When starting the car a glance at the ammeter will show the needle swinging back and forth past the zero center. This is showing the points are opening and closing before the car starts, it tells you that battery power is reaching the points and the ignition primary circuit is operating properly.

Tom Endy

[Pilotdave]

Are there any features that distinguish an original ammeter from a well-used repro?

[rotorwrench]

Externally, they have a similar appearance but fit and function don't match. The originals have a very sensitive meter movement. If it still has the original knurl nuts, they are made of bakelite and not the run of the mill plastic. There were two styles used originally but they look similar to each other. The judging standards give a relatively good description.

[F.M.]

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench

externally, they have a similar appearance but fit and function don't match. The originals have a very sensitive meter movement. If it still has the original knurl nuts, they are made of bakelite and not the run of the mill plastic. There were two styles used originally but they look similar to each other. The judging standards give a relatively good description.

wrong !!

[rotorwrench]

A statement like "wrong!!" doesn't say much. There are older reproductions out there that are now antiques but that doesn't make them correct. I'm no expert but I have seen originals that reflect my description. Offer up information. This is an opportunity to give folks truthful information for historic value. I added photos of some that look like originals I've seen. If they are not, offer up some photos.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I like Bratton's disclosure on the unit: "This is a fair repro but all that is currently available." Bert's says "These are made in China, and they work, but are not perfect. None have been made in the USA for the last 20 years."

I wonder if we could get these to work - they seem to be about the right size, and if they can be adapted for either 12V or 24V then maybe they can be adapted for 6V.
https://fariabeede.com/2-pages/prod_...auge=1_ammeter

Ammeters are not voltage sensitive.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

The statement about adapting for 24 V seems strange. Would probably need to email their technical support link for clarification?

[ryanheacox]

Maybe that ammeter is backlit?

[JRrev]

Originals have the machine screw's heads painted black so as not to show through the glass. Most repros do not. (in other words, what the thumb nuts thread on to)

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

Ammeters are not voltage sensitive.

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

Maybe that ammeter is backlit?

Seems you hit the nail on the head. I dug into their site, and hidden in the instruction sheets shows how/where to hook the backlight.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by JRrev

Originals have the machine screw's heads painted black so as not to show through the glass. Most repros do not. (in other words, what the thumb nuts thread on to)

This is something I noticed too. The judging standards mentions that the entire background is painted black inside. I've never had a chance to open one up yet to look at the movement. It is likely D'arsonval type but that's only speculation on my part. The armature moves a lot with the slightest movement of the gauge.

The cheap repros are just a permanent magnet on the pivot shaft with little brass poles on each side of the magnet formed from a tiny formed brass piece that fits through slots in the shunt at the back of the unit. The pivot bearings were formed by bending the brass shunt into a small inverted cradle with tiny dimples to hold the armature shaft pointed ends . The tension on the shaft is not even adjustable plus the spring is too stiff. It relies on the shunt and the permanent magnet to give an indication which would likely have very little accuracy. They require a large amount of discharge or charge to even make the needle move at all. I certainly wouldn't adjust my 3rd brush using one. I just wouldn't trust the accuracy.

[dpson]

With respect to quality reproduction parts at additional cost, take a look at the 30-31 brake light switches. There is now a quality switch, I believe made in the USA, that is around $50 versus the cheap overseas junk repop that are $6.50. It would be interesting to ask the vendors how the sales (and profit margins) compare. If they can do it for the switches and make money you would think they could do it for the ammeters.

[updraught]

>>"... It is likely D'arsonval type"

I think a D'arsonval is too big to fit in the little can.

[rotorwrench]

It would have to have a somewhat delicate armature and poles with hair like wire windings but stuff like that was out there in that time frame so it wouldn't surprise me. I would like to know. One day I'll find one and check it out unless someone else already has. Ford cars were made in volume with overall expenses squarely in mind but it has always amazed me how good the quality was of the components that were utilized.

[alexiskai]

Fun Projects used to build a D'Arsonval ammeter for the Model T, seems like that would be the place to start if you wanted to build one for the A.

Interestingly, he says that you should install a 25A fuse to protect the ammeter from high amperages and that you shouldn't use it with an alternator. I don't know that the question of how high amperage affects the ammeter has come up in the generator v. alternator debate here or the starter fuse debate.

http://www.funprojects.com/products/5016.aspx

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Fun Projects used to build a D'Arsonval ammeter for the Model T, seems like that would be the place to start if you wanted to build one for the A.

Interestingly, he says that you should install a 25A fuse to protect the ammeter from high amperages and that you shouldn't use it with an alternator. I don't know that the question of how high amperage affects the ammeter has come up in the generator v. alternator debate here or the starter fuse debate.

http://www.funprojects.com/products/5016.aspx

There are those who have said the "shunt" in the ammeter (the D'arsonval movement is VERY sensitive) acts as the fuse in the event of a short circuit.

So if you see a blue flash in your ammeter and then nothing works, you know where your problem is. Well, the system protection, anyway.


Joe K

[alexiskai]

This is an expansive definition of "fuse" that I don't think I've seen before. I guess if there's a short circuit, my headlights will "fuse" too.

[rotorwrench]

I've had ammeters fry on alternator systems in the helicopters before. If the power wire from the alternator to the buss ever gets directly shorted to ground it will fry the internals of the gauge so bad that it will read full discharge forever more. These were 70 amp units working on 24-volt systems. A 20 amp system on 6-volts may not have enough power to do that but there is no harm in putting a fuse in any of the power output conductor wires whether it's coming from an alternator or a generator.

A fellow I used to work for built his own portable welder from a 150 amp aircraft starter generator and it would weld stuff up to 100-amps with no problem as long as a person let it cool off for a bit in between long weld beads. It would weld thin stuff all day long at 80 amps.

[alexiskai]

I was interested in Fun Projects's specification of a 25A fuse, because I used to have a 20A fuse in my coupe, and after a couple of blown fuses I moved to a 30A fuse and it's been good since then. But I'd be interested to know if going to the 30A is putting the ammeter at risk of damage, especially since we now know that good ammeters are hard to come by.

[rotorwrench]

Circuit protection is for the conductor wire. Wire will get hot in a pair of seconds if there is ever a direct short to ground. With a fuel tank in the cowl, that can spell disaster. A lot of cars burned down back in that era due to the lack of adequate protection.

Each size of American Wire Gauge (AWG) electrical wire is rated for a certain number of amps of current flow. The fuses are sized to protect each AWG size. If you use a larger fuse the the factor of protection is nil. A wire will burn just as fast as a fuse if the rating isn't spot on. I use a chart in The FAA Advisory Circular AC43.13-1B to get the correct fuse or circuit breaker to build a circuit. The ACs are available on the FAA web site.

[alexiskai]

It does say the ratings are for "wire bundles of 15 or more wires," and " a wire run individually in the open air may possibly be protected by the circuit breaker of the next higher rating." But it's a good rule of thumb.

[ryanheacox]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I was interested in Fun Projects's specification of a 25A fuse, because I used to have a 20A fuse in my coupe, and after a couple of blown fuses I moved to a 30A fuse and it's been good since then. But I'd be interested to know if going to the 30A is putting the ammeter at risk of damage, especially since we now know that good ammeters are hard to come by.

Interesting, do you have any accessories in your coupe? I use a 20A fuse and have only ever blown it with a direct short.





It would seem that if you want to protect the ammeter you should match the fuse to the scale of the meter. 20A meter, 20A fuse.

[alexiskai]

Alternator and halogen headlights, that's it. I did have an experience, when I was setting up the horn, where I wired it wrong and when I hooked up the battery, the ammeter pegged at 20A. I disconnected the battery right away and fixed it. So I guess if I didn't blow anything up that time, a 25A or 30A fuse is OK. But if we're setting rules of thumb, it sounds like 20A is better.

[rotorwrench]

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This is one of the bad things about having one circuit in a car and no circuit protection. Separate circuits came along a few years after the model A era but it wasn't till the 49 models till they actually started to set up a proper fuse block with separate fuses and even then they still had a few short stop circuit breakers in there. Model A vehicles generally only had one or two accessories available like the windshield wiper and cowl lights so they didn't worry about it much.

Someone mentioned the Fun Projects model T ammeter before. I've noticed that a lot of the stuff John Regan used to carry regularly is listed as back ordered. He made a lot of stuff for the model Ts but he only had the 25 & earlier ammeter made. I think the 26 & 27 T had the same type ammeter as the model A. I know John sold Fun Projects to Birdhaven but I wonder where they were having that stuff manufactured if it's on back order. John was still helping them out but it's hard to say what's going on with that now.

[alexiskai]

I ordered the Fun Projects 6V voltage regulator back in April 2018 and I was probably one of the last people to get one, I think it's been "backordered" ever since.