The Ford Barn

Bluebell · 08-09-2016, 04:42 AM

Hi guys, I have assembled my engine to find that my 6 volt starter motors (I have a few of them) do not spigot into the hole in the sump. The hole is too small. The hole is round but has a cut out in the outer side of the hole, probably to allow easy fitting of the bendix assy past the ring gear.

The sump came to me as a separate part and may well have been NOS.
I first wondered if it was from a British built flatty, but assumed they were interchangeable with USA and Canadian WWII era sumps?

I see in my 41 to 47 parts book that the 12 volt starter has a different (drive end) plate 19B-11130-A (6 volt is an 18C-11130) Is this the reason? Do I need one of these 12 volt starter end plates?
Does the 12 volt plate have a smaller locating diameter?

fordscript · 08-09-2016, 06:00 AM

Sounds like you might have a V8 Pilot sump.....they will only work with a lucas starter motor.

Charlie ny · 08-09-2016, 06:00 AM

May be you have hit on something.........to manufacture cars off shore a certain amount of local content was/is required by the particular country. I know from experience
that the flywheels were of slightly different design and the tooth count and involute
was different than USA parts. Jeager/Lucas designed and manufactured electrical components for UK Fords in place of parts Ford used in the USA. Check that tooth count it can drive you nuts trying to figure why the starter binds up.
Charlie ny

Brian · 08-09-2016, 12:02 PM

Yep- V8 Pilot. Possibly, easiest way around this problem would be to machine the spigot on starter motor down to the smaller size required to fit that hole?

Bruce Lancaster · 08-09-2016, 12:25 PM

Interesting numbers! 18C is normal Canadian passenger starter, I would assume the most common down there, and 19B indicates in US usage 239 Ford Bus...I think the only 12V setup in the Ford line. I'd assume that neither relates to the Lucas starter which would likely have an E for England in its prefix.

Mart · 08-09-2016, 12:42 PM

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The Pilot has an egg shaped hole, (sort of) the main diameter in the centre is smaller than the USA type. It is not possible to turn the spigot down as it is a narrow ring (at least on the ones I have looked at) and there is no meat where you want it.
Ok, lets back up a bit. You need a matched set of starter, sump (pan) and flywheel/ring gear. Pilot have finer teeth on the ring gear, so the starter and ring gear have to match. If you have a USA flywheel and starter, it is possible to hog out the central hole in the mount plate, hard work but do-able. The two bolt holes line up with the USA starter.
Your way forward may depend on which flywheel you have and what other parts you can scrounge up.

Mart.

Bluebell · 08-10-2016, 12:35 AM

Hi Guys, Thank you for your collective help.
Yes it is the "egg shaped hole, sort of"
I guess my question is: If I die grind the hole in the sump to suit the std. ford v8 starter, Is the distance correct. (I can work this out myself)
The enging is a C59A, I believe the fly wheel is the right one (pre 48) and apart from the hole, the sump is in good condition.
The generator is by the Prince of Darkness and I think that is enough.

Brian · 08-10-2016, 01:11 AM

Yeah, if you die grind the hole out bigger, all other dimensions are the same. The only thing, which shouldn't worry you, is that the two mounting holes, whilst on the same PCD, are cocked at a different orientation to the US version. Just means you cannot run the original canted strap up to oilpan bolt.

Bluebell · 08-10-2016, 05:31 AM

Thank you Brian and Mart. Based on your advice, I will grind out the hole.
Now, how to not fill everything with sharp little bits of steel????

08-09-2016, 04:42 AM	#1
Bluebell Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 726	my sump and starter mis-match Hi guys, I have assembled my engine to find that my 6 volt starter motors (I have a few of them) do not spigot into the hole in the sump. The hole is too small. The hole is round but has a cut out in the outer side of the hole, probably to allow easy fitting of the bendix assy past the ring gear. The sump came to me as a separate part and may well have been NOS. I first wondered if it was from a British built flatty, but assumed they were interchangeable with USA and Canadian WWII era sumps? I see in my 41 to 47 parts book that the 12 volt starter has a different (drive end) plate 19B-11130-A (6 volt is an 18C-11130) Is this the reason? Do I need one of these 12 volt starter end plates? Does the 12 volt plate have a smaller locating diameter?

08-09-2016, 06:00 AM	#2
fordscript Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oamaru, New Zealand Posts: 419	Re: my sump and starter mis-match Sounds like you might have a V8 Pilot sump.....they will only work with a lucas starter motor.

08-09-2016, 06:00 AM	#3
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: my sump and starter mis-match May be you have hit on something.........to manufacture cars off shore a certain amount of local content was/is required by the particular country. I know from experience that the flywheels were of slightly different design and the tooth count and involute was different than USA parts. Jeager/Lucas designed and manufactured electrical components for UK Fords in place of parts Ford used in the USA. Check that tooth count it can drive you nuts trying to figure why the starter binds up. Charlie ny Last edited by Charlie ny; 08-09-2016 at 06:02 AM. Reason: added Lucas

08-09-2016, 12:02 PM	#4
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: my sump and starter mis-match Yep- V8 Pilot. Possibly, easiest way around this problem would be to machine the spigot on starter motor down to the smaller size required to fit that hole? __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

08-09-2016, 12:25 PM	#5
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: my sump and starter mis-match Interesting numbers! 18C is normal Canadian passenger starter, I would assume the most common down there, and 19B indicates in US usage 239 Ford Bus...I think the only 12V setup in the Ford line. I'd assume that neither relates to the Lucas starter which would likely have an E for England in its prefix.

08-09-2016, 12:42 PM	#6
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,744	Re: my sump and starter mis-match Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The Pilot has an egg shaped hole, (sort of) the main diameter in the centre is smaller than the USA type. It is not possible to turn the spigot down as it is a narrow ring (at least on the ones I have looked at) and there is no meat where you want it. Ok, lets back up a bit. You need a matched set of starter, sump (pan) and flywheel/ring gear. Pilot have finer teeth on the ring gear, so the starter and ring gear have to match. If you have a USA flywheel and starter, it is possible to hog out the central hole in the mount plate, hard work but do-able. The two bolt holes line up with the USA starter. Your way forward may depend on which flywheel you have and what other parts you can scrounge up. Mart.

08-10-2016, 12:35 AM	#7
Bluebell Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 726	Re: my sump and starter mis-match Hi Guys, Thank you for your collective help. Yes it is the "egg shaped hole, sort of" I guess my question is: If I die grind the hole in the sump to suit the std. ford v8 starter, Is the distance correct. (I can work this out myself) The enging is a C59A, I believe the fly wheel is the right one (pre 48) and apart from the hole, the sump is in good condition. The generator is by the Prince of Darkness and I think that is enough.

08-10-2016, 01:11 AM	#8
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: my sump and starter mis-match Yeah, if you die grind the hole out bigger, all other dimensions are the same. The only thing, which shouldn't worry you, is that the two mounting holes, whilst on the same PCD, are cocked at a different orientation to the US version. Just means you cannot run the original canted strap up to oilpan bolt. __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

08-10-2016, 05:31 AM	#9
Bluebell Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 726	Re: my sump and starter mis-match Thank you Brian and Mart. Based on your advice, I will grind out the hole. Now, how to not fill everything with sharp little bits of steel????