How to repair damage to a deck

[36coupe]

How can a flathead block deck be repaired? I have a gouge from a valve seat to the coolant port on the sealing area to repair about a 1/4 wide and a 1/32-1/16” deep.
JB weld would be too easy, I don’t think it would hold.
Can it be bronzed? A couple dabs with the mig and filed down? Would silver solder be too hot? I’ve repaired an exhaust manifold with a nickel rod on the arc welder but it was much thicker and I would be way to nervous to strike out an arc on the block.
Thanks

[JWL]

I would like to see a picture.

[36coupe]

Not one of my better days. Fighting stuck valves.

[36coupe]

Damage

[fordwife]

JB Weld is supposed to be good for up tp 400 degrees F. However if the damage goes into the seat I would put a new insert in that seat. But I would reserve judgement until I could see a photo.

[fordwife]

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Now that i've seen the photos. I would not be afraid to use JB weld, provided there is not a crack that goes deeper than the pictures show.

[Jack E/NJ]

Agreed JBWeld should work fine. A bit more substantial fix might be to paint the gouge with a tinplating solution. Then drip soft solder to fill the void. Jack E/NJ

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by fordwife

Now that i've seen the photos. I would not be afraid to use JB weld, provided there is not a crack that goes deeper than the pictures show.

No crack, self inflicted.

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Agreed JBWeld should work fine. A bit more substantial fix might be to paint the gouge with a tinplating solution. Then drip soft solder to fill the void. Jack E/NJ

Okay. I have a few different solders that melt at different temperatures from repairs to Indian gas tanks
I like the idea of solder

[19Fordy]

I agree with Kay. My old eyes can't discern those unclear photos. Did you use the MACRO setting on your camera for clarity?

[36coupe]

More pictures

[Will D]

[51 MERC-CT]

You have to determine if the crack goes all the way down into the valve chamber before any method of repair can be done ( if possible)
Otherwise you are SOL.

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

You have to determine if the crack goes all the way down into the valve chamber before any method of repair can be done ( if possible)
Otherwise you are SOL.

It is not a crack, it’s a gouge caused by me.

[Tim Ayers]

What caused that deep of a gouge? Chisel?

[Doublepumper]

I'm thinking epoxy won't take the heat in that area and will eventually fail. Silver solder doesn't work well for a filler. Brazing with bronze rod may be the best method to fill it without imparting too much heat and distortion. That's a tough spot, due to the uneven thickness and hole edge. Good preheat and slow cool will be the most important things for success.
Good luck!

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Doublepumper

I'm thinking epoxy won't take the heat in that area and will eventually fail. Silver solder doesn't work well for a filler. Brazing with bronze rod may be the best method to fill it without imparting too much heat and distortion. That's a tough spot, due to the uneven thickness and hole edge. Good preheat and slow cool will be the most important things for success.
Good luck!

Okay thanks

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

What caused that deep of a gouge? Chisel?

Recep saw

[53Customline]

Solder or brazing likely better than JB weld. Although that is some tough stuff properly installed. Patched a lowerUnit on outboard Motor that lasted years in tough saltwater conditions.

[Russ/40]

I would stitch it, from the water hole, to just inside the fire ring.

[tubman]

I'd try high temperature epoxy first. There are better alternatives than plain JB Weld, some available from JB Weld itself. I have used a couple of their products to fill gouges in the combustion chamber of used heads with great success.

This is all dependent on whether the valve seat is damaged in any way.

[jetmek]

I havta go with russ/40’s advice on that plastic filler wont work

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

I would stitch it, from the water hole, to just inside the fire ring.

I thought about stitching, I would have to farm that out. Whatever I used I figured if there where any low spots use an epoxy to smooth it out.

[36coupe]

What is the potential damage if you hit it with the Mig Welder. Could the heat cause the cast break? I know ideally to preheat the whole block which I can’t do, I can only heat in the general area.
I have a couple damaged blocks I might experiment on, see how much abuse they can take first.
The casting is quite thin on the edges by the water jacket and seat.
I have to first get the rest of the valves out and then I can check it again for cracks, I haven’t found any yet. It is still standard bore as well.

[Mart]

What would happen if you drilled and tapped for a pipe plug right on the fire ring line. Then fit a plug and cut/file it off flush with the deck?

Just sort of thinking out loud. From experience, brazing such a piece is very difficult to do without inducing a crack nearby. The deck only needs to be good on the fire ring line, either side is more forgiving.

[Mart]

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I just saw the post re the mig. I have no experience of mig on cast but have successfully welded up a cracked pan rail on a flathead block using (I think) high nickel arc welding rods specially made for repairing cast iron. You do a short burst and let it cool in between beads. That might be do-able. Again, just concentrate on the fire ring line. As long as that is soundly filled, the rest will be ok either as is or with a bit of epoxy or something.

[jetmek]

Mig weld is really hard. You will have a lot of trouble getting it flat with the deck and high potential to cause cracking as it shrinks. Put the farmer tools away and seek out professional help

[KiWinUS]

I know it’s not cracked but I would pin it with stitchlock pins where gasket needs to seal @ combustion chamber stitch away from chamber for apron. 1/4-3/8 in. Don’t over tighten pins cut of with ziz wheel the carefully hand file down smooth to deck level the fill rest with epoxy.
Good luck.

[Ronnie]

Unless you are an accomplished weldor the sucess rate is very slim.The welds usually produce hard spots in cast.That refuse anything but grinding. I would try this first no real after effects with this.

https://www.jbweld.com/product/highheat-epoxy-putty


R

[tubman]

I believe the JB High Heat product "Ronnie" suggested above is what I used with success. I also agree that the less "trauma" you subject the block to, the better off you are.

I seem to remember that it was a little difficult to work with.

[Russ/40]

Lots of potential solutions here, good discussion. My rationale for what I would not due, strictly based on my own experiences.
Mig welding cools too fast, gets too hard, and has significant potential for more damage.
Silver solder, easy to do, but too difficult to control the cooling rate, raising the specter of more cracks.
Brazing, like silver solder, but with less heat, best for forgings, but again cracks risk is high in cast iron.
JB weld, slow set, I have used many times, to repair heads that have excessive pitting around water holes. Works great and with lasting results. I have never tried it in the combustion chamber, so I have no basis to evaluate.
Superior epoxies, many I have no experience with. JB high heat the putty stuff, worries me as I don't see where it gets enough penetrating into pores to get a good tooth on the material, especially when the application is very small and thin.
Cast iron stitching pins, actually not that difficult. I have practiced on scrap model A blocks, and you would be surprised the small thickness that can be pinned.

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Lots of potential solutions here, good discussion. My rationale for what I would not due, strictly based on my own experiences.
Mig welding cools too fast, gets too hard, and has significant potential for more damage.
Silver solder, easy to do, but too difficult to control the cooling rate, raising the specter of more cracks.
Brazing, like silver solder, but with less heat, best for forgings, but again cracks risk is high in cast iron.
JB weld, slow set, I have used many times, to repair heads that have excessive pitting around water holes. Works great and with lasting results. I have never tried it in the combustion chamber, so I have no basis to evaluate.
Superior epoxies, many I have no experience with. JB high heat the putty stuff, worries me as I don't see where it gets enough penetrating into pores to get a good tooth on the material, especially when the application is very small and thin.
Cast iron stitching pins, actually not that difficult. I have practiced on scrap model A blocks, and you would be surprised the small thickness that can be pinned.

Where would I purchase pins?

[KiWinUS]

eBay. A200x1/2 10 for $11. That’s a deal. I’m not connected in any way. You will need a drill bit & a tap & you in business.

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

eBay. A200x1/2 10 for $11. That’s a deal. I’m not connected in any way. You will need a drill bit & a tap & you in business.

What do you search?

[Russ/40]

Google Search metal stitching. I would not reccomend making your block your first attempt. It does take some experience regarding drill size, tap depth, and pin depth. Pins are tapered like the tap. You can accomodate different hole sizes with one tap size, and accomodate different tapped hole sizes with the same size pin. Deeper the pin goes the hole must be larger. Google metal stitching and you will find some vendors have video tutorials.

I bought a setup on ebay from Pioneer with 100 pins two drills and the tap. #TP.235-27NS
If you save the pins used on smaller holes, they can be used on bigger holes, so they don't get wasted.

[Charlie ny]

With great success I've used JB weld for radiators, available at NAPA. This stuff sets up like iron. I spot glass beaded 2 EAB heads on my 286 stroker ,60 grit paper and a sanding block cleaned things up after a 2 day set. My gouges were inflicted by me chambering
the heads.

Charlie ny

[JSeery]

I would sure try the filler before I started welding or drilling holes in my block! Reread post #21, #29, #30 & 36. You really have nothing to loose trying it except maybe a head gasket.

[tubman]

I know I wouldn't be drilling holes in a block that could be repaired with epoxy! Or welding on it, for that matter. Modern day epoxies are amazing. There are more glued joints than welded joints on cars today.

[Jack E/NJ]

tubman>>> I wouldn't be drilling holes in a block that could be repaired with epoxy!>>>

You seem ike the type who also wouldn't use a reciprocating saw, cold chisel, or cut-off wheel to remove pieces of stuck head gasket. So what would you recommend for those who seal gaskets with glue instead of grease? 8^) Jack E/NJ

[Dodge]

How deep is the gouge? Maybe have the block decked.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

tubman>>> I wouldn't be drilling holes in a block that could be repaired with epoxy!>>>

You seem ike the type who also wouldn't use a reciprocating saw, cold chisel, or cut-off wheel to remove pieces of stuck head gasket. So what would you recommend for those who seal gaskets with glue instead of grease? 8^) Jack E/NJ

I will admit to being totally confused by this response.

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Dodge

How deep is the gouge? Maybe have the block decked.

I thought of decking but I don’t think it is recommended as the casting is thin in places.
I’m leaning to trying the Extreme Heat JB weld.
First I have to get the 6 stuck valves out.

[Mart]

Originally Posted by 36coupe

First I have to get the 6 stuck valves out.

Ah. OK. Now I think I know how the damage occurred.

Mart.

[Jack E/NJ]

Mart >>>Ah. OK. Now I think I know how the damage occurred.>>>


Yeah. That makes more sense than trying to remove a stuck gasket with a saw or cutoff wheel. 8^) Jack E/NJ

[36coupe]

I’m at the point of cutting the valve heads off on the couple valves that a could pry up.
I’ve been beating them up and down try to get them loose, soaking them. In frustration I got the recep saw out thinking I would have more control than a mini grinder. Took about 4 strokes to cause the damage.

[Russ/40]

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We should have started right there before you did anything. There is plenty of help here to avoid such errors. If you had asked for help removing valves, we would have told you to get the cutting torch out and cut the valves off from inside the valley. What else can we help you with? Seriously!

[itslow]

I'd take it to a machine shop that's experienced in welding cast iron, and then have the deck milled just enough to clean the surface up.

Regardless of what filler material you use, you'll need to have it decked to ensure you don't have a low or high spot there that would prevent the gasket from sealing the combustion chamber.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by 36coupe

I’m at the point of cutting the valve heads off on the couple valves that a could pry up.
I’ve been beating them up and down try to get them loose, soaking them. In frustration I got the recep saw out thinking I would have more control than a mini grinder. Took about 4 strokes to cause the damage.

If you'd like, I'd be willing to loan you a KD valve guide removal tool. Makes easy work of this tough task.

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

If you'd like, I'd be willing to loan you a KD valve guide removal tool. Makes easy work of this tough task.

I really appreciate the offer but I am in another country.

I never thought of a cutting torch in the valley. My little Cobra torch would probably work quite well.

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by 36coupe

I never thought of a cutting torch in the valley. My little Cobra torch would probably work quite well.

Most people discard the valves and springs and replace with 8BA valves anyway.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by 36coupe

I really appreciate the offer but I am in another country.

I never thought of a cutting torch in the valley. My little Cobra torch would probably work quite well.

Two points I would like to help you with. First from experience I can tell you filling the deck damage with the JB weld epoxy will solve that problem. Here's a true story about using the JB weld epoxy to save a rare set of aluminum finned heads. This rare set of heads had previously been decked so much the valve pockets and dome areas were extremely shallow making it impossible to run on an engine. To solve the problem of the shallow valve pockets and dome area JB weld was placed onto the complete deck surface of both head's this now increased the clearances so the heads could be used. This solution worked perfectly on the entire deck surface of both heads. Nothing special was done to the head deck surface other than being sure they were free of grease, dirt, oil stuff like that. The epoxy was simply placed onto the surface and then simply resurfaced.

And as an additional vote of confidence to how great JB weld works some very fast Bonneville records have been set using the stuff in the area of combustion chambers. Oh heck yea some Bonneville records lord knows someone hates seeing this. The speeds of 224, 225, and 229 MPH

Your slight amount of damage only needs to be filled with the epoxy material no need for any drilling or additional trauma to the casting surface. To make the surface of the epoxy flat to match the block deck you can use a single edge razor blade.
As long as the razor outer edges remain on top of the block deck surface this becomes the height gauge. Now as you slowly trim the epoxy height this will be a perfect guide for leveling the epoxy to the exact height of the block. No additional decking is needed once you have the epoxy leveled.

The second point I would like to caution you on be very careful using a cutting torch in the valley area of the block. The casting behind those valve springs is not thick its rather thin. Any excess heat from a torch can and at times will cause cracking which will end up being a water leak. So be very careful.
Ronnieroadster

[marko39]

Originally Posted by 36coupe

I really appreciate the offer but I am in another country.

I never thought of a cutting torch in the valley. My little Cobra torch would probably work quite well.

A sawsall works well in the valley with a lot less mess.

[Russ/40]

Interesting Ronnie. Did you JB only the flat surface that mates with the block? How far inside the fire ring did you go? Any photos to share? Was it the slow set JB? Especially, I would love to see post run disassembly photos.

This fully supports durability on unexposed areas shrouded by gasket material, but im still not convinced of inside the fire ring durability. I want to believe, but still not convinced.

Marco39, I have a hate relationship with sawzalls. I just hit the side of the spring and valve. Never had any problem. It is wise to alert your neighbors, because it will be smokey!

Lindsay, is that damage near an intake or exhaust valve?

[36coupe]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Interesting Ronnie. Did you JB only the flat surface that mates with the block? How far inside the fire ring did you go? Any photos to share? Was it the slow set JB? Especially, I would love to see post run disassembly photos.

This fully supports durability on unexposed areas shrouded by gasket material, but im still not convinced of inside the fire ring durability. I want to believe, but still not convinced.

Marco39, I have a hate relationship with sawzalls. I just hit the side of the spring and valve. Never had any problem. It is wise to alert your neighbors, because it will be smokey!

Lindsay, is that damage near an intake or exhaust valve?

Intake.
I have a 20 year old can of Lab-Metal never opened with a 2 year life span, probably should turf it.
JB weld make a 1000f extreme temp epoxy.
Thanks to everybody for all your help.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Interesting Ronnie. Did you JB only the flat surface that mates with the block? How far inside the fire ring did you go? Any photos to share? Was it the slow set JB? Especially, I would love to see post run disassembly photos.

This fully supports durability on unexposed areas shrouded by gasket material, but im still not convinced of inside the fire ring durability. I want to believe, but still not convinced.

Marco39, I have a hate relationship with sawzalls. I just hit the side of the spring and valve. Never had any problem. It is wise to alert your neighbors, because it will be smokey!

Lindsay, is that damage near an intake or exhaust valve?

Sorry I don't have any photos of the project I never took many pictures. The Epoxy was the actual edge into the combustion chamber in other words the fire ring area. I realize its hard to imagine the material holding up under the firing of the cylinder but it did. Now JB has a material that withstands high temps back when this was accomplished that was not available so we just used the standard stuff only other thing I can add is we did not use the fast setting type.
Ronnieroadster

[Jack E/NJ]

I'd expect that, even though Lindsay's slip-o'-the-saw extends into the combustion chamber, the actual flamefront at the hot end shouldn't penetrate too far and/or too fast because the gouge is plugged with epoxy at the cool end. I think even low temp epoxy would also work even if near the exhaust valve. Jack E/NJ

[john greco]

Google Belzona , it’s superior but expensive

[Russ/40]

It's beginning to look like an epoxy solution. If it flows like the slow set JB, I would be more satisfied about a good mechanical bond. Great that it's at an intake valve. Heat is not likely going to be a problem, it's the bond that will matter.

I'm disappointed JWL never commented. I would consider his opinion to be gospel.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

It's beginning to look like an epoxy solution. If it flows like the slow set JB, I would be more satisfied about a good mechanical bond. Great that it's at an intake valve. Heat is not likely going to be a problem, it's the bond that will matter.

I'm disappointed JWL never commented. I would consider his opinion to be gospel.

Read again jwl had a comment


R

[Russ/40]

He just asked for a photo.........no suggested solution.

[FlatheadTed]

My two cents .Like the others I would avoid any heat related solutions , or if so just solder . JB is probably a good solution but you could consider a high temperature silicone. The gauge is shallow and its on the inlet valve the colder of the two and would have the gasket go into it some what . Dodge has the suggestion that you could most likely feel the most confidence with , decking a block is common on a rebuild these days

[JWL]

My solution would likely only be appropriate for me to apply. I, therefore, chose to not comment.
JWL

[Will D]

Originally Posted by JWL

My solution would likely only be appropriate for me to apply. I, therefore, chose to not comment.
JWL

You just did comment tho, now you've planted a seed. Are you really gonna leave us hanging now?