The Ford Barn

Phred · 09-15-2016, 06:55 AM

A friend's coupe died in another friend's garage the other night. 6 volt pos ground, one wire alternator, fuse holder on starter.

Car was driven into garage after and event next morning engine would not turn over, battery was dead. Garage owner (unfamiliar with Model A's) put charger on battery. Car owner and garage owner then called me for consultation.

Fuse on starter was blown and would immediately blow when new fuse installed. After a few suggestions over the phone without success, they closed the hood and invited me over to look things over in person.

Upon arrival, 6+ volts at battery, starter, and terminal box, no headlights, power at both ends of fuse holder with no fuse installed, engine would turn over normally, no spark. I removed the headlight wires and other wire from the alternator stud and removed the fuse holder from the circuit, connected these wires together and headlights worked normally, also had power at the points now, and fuse holder did not have continuity without a fuse. Engine started normally. reattached wires to alternator and magic smoke was escaping from behind the ammeter. Removed and taped off the alternator wires and drove it home on the battery.

I suspect that the innards of the alternator are upset. Does this diagnosis sound correct?

If the garage owner inadvertently connected the battery charger "backwards" might this have disturbed the alternator?

Thanks in advance for any confirmation or other areas to look at.

Phred

Tom Wesenberg · 09-15-2016, 07:16 AM

First thing is how could there be power at both sides of the fuse holder and terminal box with no fuse installed?

Connecting the battery charger backwards could be a big problem, and if the battery was dead, it may now be charged backwards. Use a volt meter to make sure of battery polarity.

C26Pinelake · 09-15-2016, 07:18 AM

what is magic smoke ? Why do people try to fix something they know absolutely nothing about. Playing mechanic can cost the owner lots of extra money. Bottom line is if they don't know what they are doing they should leave it alone. Sweet and simple! Wayne

Mitch//pa · 09-15-2016, 07:27 AM

"""""Magic smoke was escaping from behind the dash""""
Something also fried::

Since you had smoke from behind the dash it will need either a ammeter or a dash harness or both....
Pull it back and see what's up before you go any further

Mike V. Florida · 09-15-2016, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

First thing is how could there be power at both sides of the fuse holder and terminal box with no fuse installed?

I agree! He did something and is not telling you what he did. The battery goes to the starter then the fuse. No fuse the power stops there with the car is not running.

You are going to have to follow the wiring diagram to see where the problem is assuming stock wiring. With a whole lot of mods all bets are off. You will need to strip out everything not stock and go back to square one then re wire as necessary.

model-a-ford-electrical-wiring-diagram

Phred · 09-15-2016, 08:43 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

First thing is how could there be power at both sides of the fuse holder and terminal box with no fuse installed?

Connecting the battery charger backwards could be a big problem, and if the battery was dead, it may now be charged backwards. Use a volt meter to make sure of battery polarity.

1) I agree, power at both ends of the fuse holder is strange.

2) How do I check the polarity of the battery with a volt meter?

Thanks

Art Newland · 09-15-2016, 08:51 AM

Just put the red + lead of the meter on the + terminal of the battery and the black - lead on the - terminal of the battery. the meter should read a positive voltage.

C26Pinelake · 09-15-2016, 08:52 AM

maybe you should enlist the help of a person familiar with Model A cars before additional harm is done. Sometimes money not spent is not money saved! Wayne

Phred · 09-15-2016, 09:17 AM

OK...

with digital multimeter, meter (+) red lead to battery (+) post (post grounded to chassis and meter (-) black lead to battery (-) post (post connected to starter by cable: yields (-) 6 volts.

So battery appears to be "charged backwards"?

Can this be easily reversed?

No sense in hooking up any positive ground alternators until the battery condition is corrected?

Thanks

Tom Wesenberg · 09-15-2016, 09:25 AM

Turn on the headlights to completely kill the battery, then try charging it the correct way. I tried this on a few batteries over the years, but sometimes it just won't come back to life.

tbirdtbird · 09-15-2016, 09:35 AM

"He did something and is not telling you what he did."
Haha interesting comment, Mike, and I agree.

and now we know what he did.

don't rapid charge it the correct way, use a slow trickle

i still agree with Mitch that it is worth looking at the back of the ammeter, and checking everything, since something triggred this whole affair

Tom, about 35 yrs ago I backwards charged my '50 Jeepster and wondered why the ammeter lost its mind. Up until then I did not know this was possible! The battery must be stone dead in order for this to happen

diodes in alt may be blown. I'd check them before putting the alt back online. A blown diode becomes a 'wire' meaning it conducts in both directions. Sometimes blown so bad that they are just open

If the garage owner was paying attention he would have seen a blue flash from the alt when he connected the charger backwards....but he isn't spilling the beans

BILL WILLIAMSON · 09-15-2016, 10:53 AM

We ALL know a Model A is POSITIVE ground, but sometimes we get our head on ASSBACKWARDS, & SCREW UP!!!
Bill Backwards

C26Pinelake · 09-15-2016, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

"He did something and is not telling you what he did."
Haha interesting comment, Mike, and I agree.

and now we know what he did.

don't rapid charge it the correct way, use a slow trickle

i still agree with Mitch that it is worth looking at the back of the ammeter, and checking everything, since something triggred this whole affair

Tom, about 35 yrs ago I backwards charged my '50 Jeepster and wondered why the ammeter lost its mind. Up until then I did not know this was possible! The battery must be stone dead in order for this to happen

diodes in alt may be blown. I'd check them before putting the alt back online. A blown diode becomes a 'wire' meaning it conducts in both directions. Sometimes blown so bad that they are just open

If the garage owner was paying attention he would have seen a blue flash from the alt when he connected the charger backwards....but he isn't spilling the beans

You have a lot of support in this suggestion! We don't know everything that happened. Wayne

johnbuckley · 09-15-2016, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

We ALL know a Model A is POSITIVE ground,.....
Bill Backwards

Oh no we don't Bill, some like their owners are wired unconventionally

jetmek · 09-15-2016, 06:08 PM

Look closely at the stop light switch. had virtually same problem recently due to shorted switch

Phred · 09-18-2016, 08:01 AM

Battery Follow Up: Drained the battery to zero volts, battery woulf d not accept proper charge.
Installed new battery, hooked up fuse holder, and different alternator. All is well!

Mitch//pa · 09-18-2016, 08:20 AM

What about the smoke from the dash ..did you pull it back and check things out..
Something had to have burned

Tom Wesenberg · 09-18-2016, 09:14 AM

So, it sounds like the alternator was the problem, but as Mitch said, I'd check out the wires and ammeter behind the instrument panel.

09-15-2016, 06:55 AM	#1
Phred Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: IL Posts: 303	alternator / engine no start A friend's coupe died in another friend's garage the other night. 6 volt pos ground, one wire alternator, fuse holder on starter. Car was driven into garage after and event next morning engine would not turn over, battery was dead. Garage owner (unfamiliar with Model A's) put charger on battery. Car owner and garage owner then called me for consultation. Fuse on starter was blown and would immediately blow when new fuse installed. After a few suggestions over the phone without success, they closed the hood and invited me over to look things over in person. Upon arrival, 6+ volts at battery, starter, and terminal box, no headlights, power at both ends of fuse holder with no fuse installed, engine would turn over normally, no spark. I removed the headlight wires and other wire from the alternator stud and removed the fuse holder from the circuit, connected these wires together and headlights worked normally, also had power at the points now, and fuse holder did not have continuity without a fuse. Engine started normally. reattached wires to alternator and magic smoke was escaping from behind the ammeter. Removed and taped off the alternator wires and drove it home on the battery. I suspect that the innards of the alternator are upset. Does this diagnosis sound correct? If the garage owner inadvertently connected the battery charger "backwards" might this have disturbed the alternator? Thanks in advance for any confirmation or other areas to look at. Phred

09-15-2016, 07:16 AM	#2
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: alternator / engine no start First thing is how could there be power at both sides of the fuse holder and terminal box with no fuse installed? Connecting the battery charger backwards could be a big problem, and if the battery was dead, it may now be charged backwards. Use a volt meter to make sure of battery polarity.

09-15-2016, 07:18 AM	#3
C26Pinelake BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Michigan / Ontario border, Sarnia, Ontario. 50 miles from Detroit and 150 from Toronto. Posts: 5,800	Re: alternator / engine no start what is magic smoke ? Why do people try to fix something they know absolutely nothing about. Playing mechanic can cost the owner lots of extra money. Bottom line is if they don't know what they are doing they should leave it alone. Sweet and simple! Wayne Last edited by C26Pinelake; 09-15-2016 at 08:33 AM.

09-15-2016, 07:27 AM	#4
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: alternator / engine no start """""Magic smoke was escaping from behind the dash"""" Something also fried:: Since you had smoke from behind the dash it will need either a ammeter or a dash harness or both.... Pull it back and see what's up before you go any further Last edited by Mitch//pa; 09-15-2016 at 12:15 PM.

09-15-2016, 08:51 AM	#7
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: alternator / engine no start Just put the red + lead of the meter on the + terminal of the battery and the black - lead on the - terminal of the battery. the meter should read a positive voltage.

09-15-2016, 08:52 AM	#8
C26Pinelake BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Michigan / Ontario border, Sarnia, Ontario. 50 miles from Detroit and 150 from Toronto. Posts: 5,800	Re: alternator / engine no start maybe you should enlist the help of a person familiar with Model A cars before additional harm is done. Sometimes money not spent is not money saved! Wayne

09-15-2016, 09:17 AM	#9
Phred Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: IL Posts: 303	Re: alternator / engine no start OK... with digital multimeter, meter (+) red lead to battery (+) post (post grounded to chassis and meter (-) black lead to battery (-) post (post connected to starter by cable: yields (-) 6 volts. So battery appears to be "charged backwards"? Can this be easily reversed? No sense in hooking up any positive ground alternators until the battery condition is corrected? Thanks

09-15-2016, 09:25 AM	#10
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: alternator / engine no start Turn on the headlights to completely kill the battery, then try charging it the correct way. I tried this on a few batteries over the years, but sometimes it just won't come back to life.

09-15-2016, 09:35 AM	#11
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: alternator / engine no start "He did something and is not telling you what he did." Haha interesting comment, Mike, and I agree. and now we know what he did. don't rapid charge it the correct way, use a slow trickle i still agree with Mitch that it is worth looking at the back of the ammeter, and checking everything, since something triggred this whole affair Tom, about 35 yrs ago I backwards charged my '50 Jeepster and wondered why the ammeter lost its mind. Up until then I did not know this was possible! The battery must be stone dead in order for this to happen diodes in alt may be blown. I'd check them before putting the alt back online. A blown diode becomes a 'wire' meaning it conducts in both directions. Sometimes blown so bad that they are just open If the garage owner was paying attention he would have seen a blue flash from the alt when he connected the charger backwards....but he isn't spilling the beans __________________ '31 180A Last edited by tbirdtbird; 09-15-2016 at 09:49 AM.

09-15-2016, 10:53 AM	#12
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: alternator / engine no start We ALL know a Model A is POSITIVE ground, but sometimes we get our head on ASSBACKWARDS, & SCREW UP!!! Bill Backwards __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

09-15-2016, 06:08 PM	#15
jetmek Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: albany Posts: 465	Re: alternator / engine no start Look closely at the stop light switch. had virtually same problem recently due to shorted switch __________________ engine and component overhauls my specialty! Website- www.godevilgarage.com

09-18-2016, 08:01 AM	#16
Phred Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: IL Posts: 303	Re: alternator / engine no start Battery Follow Up: Drained the battery to zero volts, battery woulf d not accept proper charge. Installed new battery, hooked up fuse holder, and different alternator. All is well!

09-18-2016, 08:20 AM	#17
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: alternator / engine no start What about the smoke from the dash ..did you pull it back and check things out.. Something had to have burned

09-18-2016, 09:14 AM	#18
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: alternator / engine no start So, it sounds like the alternator was the problem, but as Mitch said, I'd check out the wires and ammeter behind the instrument panel.