inspection nightmare

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Took the coupe down to the inspection station this morning for the state annual inspection, the car has always started and ran good, no trouble with the inspection , passed easily but when I went to restart it kept stalling and backfiring. The engine was super hot and I thought the condenser had fried (modern type) so I borrowed the air hose and tried to cool things off, after a while it restarted but I had trouble keeping it running for a few minutes. After a while I was able to drive it home and it ran pretty good except a slight misfire at times. I got to thinking maybe the gas boiled so I'll le it cool down and see how a restart goes. Just curious, has anyone experienced a similar problem ??

[Tom Wesenberg]

Yep, mine does the same thing if I have the crapahol gas in it and it boils.

[WHN]

I know some members will question this, but try adding Marvel Mystery Oil to your gas. It could help with what you are experiencing.

[Y-Blockhead]

Yes it has happened to me. I added a 1/4" phenolic insulator between the carb and manifold to help keep the gas cooler.

[Russ/40]

Are you guys running a down draft?

guess its a secret.

[Big hammer]

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Originally Posted by WHN

I know some members will question this, but try adding Marvel Mystery Oil to your gas. It could help with what you are experiencing.

Try it you may like it :-). Or your "A" may like it !

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Thanks Big Hammer and WHN, I bought a couple of bottles and will add it this afternoon.
I started it up after the cooling period and it started and ran fine but I'll still add the MMO, probabl a couple of tablespoons to a half a tank.
Barry B./ Ma.

[Dodge]

I had to switch to mid-range fuel instead of regular.

[Greg Jones]

Add about 4 oz. to your gas tank, not both bottles. (I am sure you didn't mean you were going to add both bottles to your tank, but hey, just in case you didn't know....)

EDIT: Whoops I somehow neglected to read your entire post. However, add 4 oz. not just a couple tablespoons. JMHO

[wmws]

4 oz to a full tank 2 oz to one half tank?

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Yep, mine does the same thing if I have the crapahol gas in it and it boils.

Tom,
Why is it that some Model As have trouble with ethanol in gas and some don't? Why do some As run fine on ethanol blend for years then suddenly develop a problem with it?

I would think that if e10 made our cars run poorly that we'd all be experiencing the same symptoms.

Is it a heat related issue? Altitude? Humidity? Some other factor (or factors) combined with the ethanol?

[john in illinois]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

Tom,
Why is it that some Model As have trouble with ethanol in gas and some don't? Why do some As run fine on ethanol blend for years then suddenly develop a problem with it?

I would think that if e10 made our cars run poorly that we'd all be experiencing the same symptoms.

Is it a heat related issue? Altitude? Humidity? Some other factor (or factors) combined with the ethanol?

I do not understand this either. I have never had problems with e10 or straight gas. When I drove from IL To Vicksburg MS the temperature was up to 104. I had fuel percolate after we stoped but it went right away once we got rolling.When you travel there is often no choice.

John

[2manycars]

I use MMO for the same reason. If I forget to add it and I am stuck in heavy traffic on a hot day, it runs poorly.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

Tom,
Why is it that some Model As have trouble with ethanol in gas and some don't? Why do some As run fine on ethanol blend for years then suddenly develop a problem with it?

I would think that if e10 made our cars run poorly that we'd all be experiencing the same symptoms.

Is it a heat related issue? Altitude? Humidity? Some other factor (or factors) combined with the ethanol?

I can only guess the percent of corn crap varies between states.
Also consider the age of the fuel, air temp, humidity, engine condition, radiator condition, etc.

[daveymc29]

How about adding 4 oz. ATF to the tank full? I do use the MMO but sometimes I forget to take it and find myself out on the highway and the station is a minimart with no choice but the ATF. So far I have just skipped using it until I got where I could buy it. Often I use just 2 oz. per tank and it does fine. I started using it because of a stuck valve (zero PSI that hole) and just continued after that freed up so well. (Overnight with about a shot glass full in the errant cylinder, cranked it over, key off, to get the MMO around everywhere and next morning fired it up, went to coffee and been driving it almost daily since.)

[Dick Steinkamp]

Here are the gas stations that sell ethanol free gas in the US...



https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?

With the exception of a few states, ethanol free gas is relatively close to everyone.

If you feel that e10 is causing your problems, you might want to fill up with a few tanks of ethanol free gas to test that theory.

[jb-ob]

Barry B,

Common hot weather problem with a Model A. After a drive the fuel in the hot carburetor boils the gas and the fumes 'flood' the engine. Hard to re-start, runs poorly until the excess gas is drawn off.

First check to see if your carburetor has a vented fuel bowl .... re-designed after mid 1929., which allows some of the excess fumes to escape.

On a hot day drive, shut off the fuel valve allowing the engine to run until the carb is dry. Later turning on the gas valve allows 'cool' gas from the tank to fill the carb. Works for me.

I suspect that adding of MMO or diesel to the gasoline lowers the volatility making it harder to boil off & flooding the engine.

Hope some of this is helpful, JB

[1931 flamingo]

Barry: glug, glug, glug, glug.
Paul

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Are you guys running a down draft?

guess its a secret.

Russ, I have a stock Zenith updraft. After installing a phenolic spacer I have "0" problems. I also add 1oz Sea Foam per gallon to absorb moisture.

[Jacksonlll]

Like jb said. This happens all the time after a short stop when the carb bowl is very hot. We just pour some water on the bowl and that fixes it right away. The reason your car started running good after a while, is because it finally gets some cooler fuel into the bowl and it stays below the boiling point.

[updraught]

On the right hand side of the country, alcohol must be more useful for other things.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Adding about 2.5 ounces of regular crankcase oil to 10 gallons of Model A gasoline will work just great for helping to prevent E-10 vapor lock whether MMO is available or not available.

Our old square tank 1930's- 1950's outboard motors "all" used regular crankcase oil before today's 50:1 two-cycle oil which was much later invented and recommended for 2 cycle engines.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I can only guess the percent of corn crap varies between states.
Also consider the age of the fuel, air temp, humidity, engine condition, radiator condition, etc.

Yes, this is true. The amount of alcohol blended into the fuel can vary quite a bit from station to station and even from week to week.

The pumps say "up to 10%". That is true. It won't be over that, but it can be well under that.

Under hood temperature is the wildcard. Some cars run hotter than others. Sit at a light idling and everything under there (carb and fuel) can get quite hot.

In these conditions, I have to open my GAV and start out from the light staying in 1st gear, holding the RPMs up until the outside air cools everything off under the hood. You can feel the power kick in and the engine start to run right again when the carb is cooled off. Then I close the GAV back to normal running position and shift to 2nd.

If I don't do the above, the engine stalls leaving the light.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Originally Posted by jb-ob

Barry B,

Common hot weather problem with a Model A. After a drive the fuel in the hot carburetor boils the gas and the fumes 'flood' the engine. Hard to re-start, runs poorly until the excess gas is drawn off.

First check to see if your carburetor has a vented fuel bowl .... re-designed after mid 1929., which allows some of the excess fumes to escape.

On a hot day drive, shut off the fuel valve allowing the engine to run until the carb is dry. Later turning on the gas valve allows 'cool' gas from the tank to fill the carb. Works for me.

I suspect that adding of MMO or diesel to the gasoline lowers the volatility making it harder to boil off & flooding the engine.

Hope some of this is helpful, JB

Thanks jb, I just turned off the ignition in the inspection bay and tried to start it after a few minutesso I assume the gas boiled from the heat, very embarrasing, all kinds of popping and no throttle response, it was hard to tell if it was a condenser or fuel flow. Thanks for the advice, I'll keep the Mystery oil handy and let it run dry when hot. Barry B.

[barkleydave]

I run real gas and still have the problem stopping for a fuel stop on a tour on a hot day. I use MMO and it helps some. I found if on a hot day on tour I fuel... open hood and poor cool water on the fuel bowl (Not Ice Cold) and no issue. About a half bottle seems to do the trick. I would be afraid to poor ice cold water it might crack the fuel bowl. Also just letting it idle for about a minute or so will cool it down but seems like on tours folks want to roll right away.

[Kevin in NJ]

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So I have always railed against the 'vapor lock' on the A.

As such I have enjoyed some people relating stories as to why they do not believe either in PM's.

So on person related to how they had the typical engine 'vapor lock' problem for a few years. He tried all the fixes and none worked really.

Then he had to take the engine apart for other reasons and he noticed the valve gaps were done wrong and uneven. So he redid the valve properly. When he put the engine together no more vapor lock.

To approach this logically you have to think well only some cars ever have a problem. So on a tour a couple of cars are having a problem and they are all in the same conditions with the same gas. Right there tells me it is a build problem.

What goes wrong, well that is the problem. What is more likely wrong is a bunch of little things. Timing off a tad, valves slightly off, maybe the water jacket is not cleaned out as well as it should be and they all add up- sometimes- to cause a problem.

How many people are aware the valves need to have the gap set for how the metal expands. You can not just go by what the service bulletins say. You have to know the expansion rate of the metal.

Doing the A engine right is not simple. People do not realize the A engine is a high precision built device. They poo poo that thought and think it is just an old engine why bother with accuracy. You really have to think your are building a race car engine as you approach the constuction of the engine.

The A engine runs great if it is done right. You should not have to do any modern fixes to get it to be extremely reliable (well the burn out proof condenser is essential, no not the V8 one).

[John_Carter]

I was definitely in the camp that said if you have fuel problems, there must be something wrong with your car because it doesn't happen to me. Until... going up Mt. Mitchell off of the Blue Ridge Parkway. I also had similar problems in Mississippi after hours of sustained 50mph driving. At one point I noticed rolling bubbles in the sediment bulb. It was hard to take a good picture of that, but I did get a picture of the giant bubble that formed as the moving bubbles stopped. I had a couple days with similar conditions and with multiple fill-ups per day I know it wasn't just one particular tank of gas. Higher octane gas didn't seem to help. It pains me to say it, but after adding MMO the problem went away over the next couple of days and 1000+ miles.

More information on the trip here: http://www.sheepisland.com/3000modela/

[Boston Bruce]

Originally Posted by Barry B./ Ma.

Thanks jb, I just turned off the ignition in the inspection bay...

Barry,

Next time just don't get the car inspected. What is it now $39 for essentially nothing.

Boston Bruce

[jb-ob]

Barry B.

It might just be Inspection Stations. I too have suffered a dented ego at the same locations.

I have long believed the remaining Model A's are here to keep us humble. First sign of a puffed up ego, they have a knack of embarrassing at the perfect spot, ie. Inspection Stations, entrance to the Hershey Show Car field on Saturday etc.

John Carter; Great site about your tour through National Parks.

I'm satisfied if I make it to the next town & back. Wife no longer wants to ride as she is tired of driving back with strange men in the front of a flat bed truck.

Yup, it's tough...... JB

[Beater]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Adding about 2.5 ounces of regular crankcase oil to 10 gallons of Model A gasoline will work just great for helping to prevent E-10 vapor lock whether MMO is available or not available.

Our old square tank 1930's- 1950's outboard motors "all" used regular crankcase oil before today's 50:1 two-cycle oil which was much later invented and recommended for 2 cycle engines.

I'm not sure I believe this. speaking from experience in a small 2 cycle engine that got regular 10-30 motor oil instead of 2 cycle oil it fouled the plug in no time to the point that the engine wouldn't run. pull plug clean plug, foul again in short order. regular crankcase oil is not designed to burn , and doesn't burn clean or completely.

the same as adding ATF to your fuel, its not really designed to burn clean. you are much much better off adding MMO or a good brand 2 cycle oil to your fuel for good upper cyl lubeing

[Ed]

If you decide to use ATF, avoid the types that have silicone in them.

[Joe K]

Wooden clothes pins on the gas line.

Some put tinfoil between the clothes pins and the tube.

Don't ask me why it works.

Joe K

[GPierce]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Wooden clothes pins on the gas line.

Some put tinfoil between the clothes pins and the tube.

Don't ask me why it works.

Joe K

Wood makes a pretty good insulator.

[JDupuis]

John_Carter, loved your blog of your long distance tour. Would love to do a tour like that myself. Thanks for sharing. Jeff

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

Here are the gas stations that sell ethanol free gas in the US...



https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?

With the exception of a few states, ethanol free gas is relatively close to everyone.

If you feel that e10 is causing your problems, you might want to fill up with a few tanks of ethanol free gas to test that theory.

Checked the prices for unleaded gas on the websites listed in the north-east and the price for a gallon of 94 octane unleaded gas ranged from $10.00 to $30.00 a gallon. All the Model A's I have owned run on 89 octane ethanol with no snake oil or other additives. I believe poor running cars have poorly tuned engines.

[Beater]

well for me the reason to add some MMO or 2 cycle oil is for some top end lube as the new oils have no zink and other good stuff in them. to ea his own however

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Beater

well for me the reason to add some MMO or 2 cycle oil is for some top end lube as the new oils have no zink and other good stuff in them. to ea his own however

Today's gas is not like the good gas of the 60's and 70's, never mind the lead. It boils too quickly and is what I call a drier gas, as it doesn't lubricate at all compared to the older gas. That's why I like a bit of oil mixed in.

If someone wants to think my gas boils because I haven't properly tuned my car, well, they can think what ever they please.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Today's gas is not like the good gas of the 60's and 70's, never mind the lead. It boils too quickly and is what I call a drier gas, as it doesn't lubricate at all compared to the older gas. That's why I like a bit of oil mixed in.

If someone wants to think my gas boils because I haven't properly tuned my car, well, they can think what ever they please.

Very well said. I have always used MMO in the gas. So far has kept us from having this problem.

[Beater]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Today's gas is not like the good gas of the 60's and 70's, never mind the lead. It boils too quickly and is what I call a drier gas, as it doesn't lubricate at all compared to the older gas. That's why I like a bit of oil mixed in.

If someone wants to think my gas boils because I haven't properly tuned my car, well, they can think what ever they please.

very true things definatly seem dryer, and a bit of 2 cycle oil makes my valves and upper cyl much much happyer