Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-30-2012, 12:41 PM   #1
VeryTangled
Senior Member
 
VeryTangled's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: (Not far enough...) Outside of DC
Posts: 3,386
Default Jump Starting?

Hi Everyone!

I think I've almost had enough fun fiddling with the chassis grounds, coil, distributor, generator, wiring harnesses, lights, horn, starter, fuel sender, fuel gauge, and ammeter in our car.

I was wondering:

What are the dangers and techniques for Jump Starting an old Ford original 6v positive ground, generator equipped system with a 12v negative ground alternator equipped modern vehicle?

Is there any device that can be used to make this trick safer for the vehicles?

Do you need heavier gauge wire in the jumper cables?

Is there such thing as a 6v jump box? Reading some message boards seems to indicate they may not be. Would carrying a 6v motorcycle battery be a substitute for a similar 12v jump box?

In auto-shop, we teach to hook the fourth connection from the good negative, to chassis ground on the dead car. This hardly ever works because of poor grounding. And grounding in the 6v system is even more important, isn't it?

-VeryTangled/Jeff
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Week 11 Batteries - Jump Starting.JPG (41.5 KB, 173 views)
File Type: jpg GEDC0303.jpg (44.5 KB, 201 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0168_zpsea163083.jpg (52.8 KB, 202 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0236_zps350fbfc9.jpg (41.1 KB, 185 views)
File Type: jpg GEDC0017_zpsb57a9fde.jpg (77.4 KB, 180 views)
File Type: jpg GEDC0014_zps8b4e2d6b.jpg (80.9 KB, 553 views)

Last edited by VeryTangled; 12-30-2012 at 07:13 PM.
VeryTangled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 01:04 PM   #2
richard crow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,760
Default Re: Jump Starting?

when using a 12v jump put the pos cable on ground. then just touch the starter side of the sol or the starter post with the other cable .this way the onley thing geting 12v is the starter.whitch car take it. ps don,t forget to have ign switch on
richard crow is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 12-30-2012, 01:07 PM   #3
296 V8
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: nor~cal
Posts: 455
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Iv done it in a pinch and had the same worry’s … nothing bad happened. Maybe I got lucky and im not sayin it’s the right thing to do.
296 V8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 01:15 PM   #4
dewickt
Junior Member
 
dewickt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 24
Default Re: Jump Starting?

If using 12V to jump a 6V car only hook the jumpers up when the starter is engaged, also be careful and make sure all lights are turned off, this can be a quick path to all new bulbs.
__________________
Terry
dewickt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 01:46 PM   #5
ken ct
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: stratford,ct
Posts: 5,971
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Ive jumped from 12V car many times,never had any troubles,Just make sure everything is off except ignition switch and do it quick,it should start real quick if its only the low or dead batt. And disconnect right away as soon as it starts. ken ct. OMO.
ken ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 02:04 PM   #6
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
If you follow the advise posted by Richard, there is no possibility of 'hurting' anything on the 6V side of the car. The ONLY thing that sees 12V, is the starter, if done this way. Problem is, many people don't understand this, and simply hook 12V across the 6V bat. For this scenario, usually nothing bad happens, but there is always the possibility that 12V can hurt the ignition system, or anything else that is turned on.
I choose to stick with Richard's way, noting that there must be at least enough 6V available to run the ignition (since it doesn't get 12V using this method).
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 02:12 PM   #7
George/Maine
Senior Member
 
George/Maine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mid coast Maine
Posts: 1,878
Default Re: Jump Starting?

From the pictures i,d say call AAA.
If you think it will start.
Remove the small wire to selinode.
Next take the neg cable from 12 volt battery and put on starter.
next take cable pos to pos ground.
Now take the other of cable and touch to battery.Turn ign on,Be carfull the battery does,nt blow up.
If it does,nt start right up get ignintion working first.
George/Maine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 02:42 PM   #8
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,762
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by richard crow View Post
when using a 12v jump put the pos cable on ground. then just touch the starter side of the sol or the starter post with the other cable .this way the onley thing geting 12v is the starter.whitch car take it. ps don,t forget to have ign switch on
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobH View Post
. . . there must be at least enough 6V available to run the ignition (since it doesn't get 12V using this method).
This way would not have worked for my second jump Saturday morning (read here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93137 ) because the battery was too dead to even fire the coil. Had to jump battery to battery as others have said. Connect batteries while starter button is pushed in and disconnect as soon as starts. Always works fine. (Of course, I always push start it if I can before resorting to a jump from 12 volt.)
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 02:45 PM   #9
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,762
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeryTangled View Post
Do you need heavier gauge wire in the jumper cables?
-VeryTangled/Jeff
Yes. I bought the longest beefiest cables I could at NAPA. Anything less and you've got smoke and melting pretty quick jumping from 12 volt.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 03:11 PM   #10
VeryTangled
Senior Member
 
VeryTangled's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: (Not far enough...) Outside of DC
Posts: 3,386
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Thanks everyone for getting this rolling. Please, more comments.

So far, I get this much. Please correct all of this as you see necessary.

Make sure the dead car is in neutral, with the parking brake set and wheels chocked.

The good car should be turned off, and have itself secured (probably in Park) with the parking brakes set. You should never have to start the good car, it should have plenty of cranking power. Besides if you do start it, that seems to increase the chance of blowing ITS computer, turning the helper's good deed into their nightmare and your ulcer. I guess if you want to be ultra-safe you could disconnect the good car's negative battery terminal (requiring a tool), but be aware this will likely upset the car's computer/radio/alarm/seats/backup-camera/auto-parking system/transwarp-drive/etc.

Dead car: Turn everything off. All lights, blowers/motors, radios, even shut the door if you have a dome light. Don't turn anything on until the cars are disconnected. Unplug all accessory adapters and aftermarket stuff. (Editor: If you have a battery cut-out, and haven't turned it on yet, then go directly to Jail. Do not collect $200.)

Good car: Red onto positive battery terminal.

Dead Car: Red onto ground (chassis, block, starter case/bolt? Advice please.) Both red hook-ups are done, to be removed after start-up, remove it from the dead car first when the time comes.

At dead car black onto starter post/battery negative. (Note: One connection is not hooked-up, black to the good car's negative battery post. Controlling this cable from the good car end of things is safer than trying to make this momentary connection while starting the car in the engine compartment of the dead car.) Some seem to indicate it's okay to go the battery ground terminal vs. the starter post, yes/no? Connecting to the battery seems to expose more of the bits to being blowed-up, but the battery disconnection will be easier to do than from the starter post (of a running engine, even though it's away from the spinny pieces). A thought: Can you get to the starter post from under your car? Maybe you feel this is a safer place to reach under and disconnect after the car is running. (Remember chocks/brakes please.)

Dead car: Switch on

Dead car: Starter on

Cable-person/Helper will momentarily touch black coming from the dead car starter/battery to the good car's battery negative terminal. (Starter should spin rather well?) Cars are connected, hopefully for the shortest amount of time possible.

Caution: When lead-acid batteries charge/discharge they off-gas hydrogen and oxygen, a combustible combination. Try not to make too many sparks nearby lead-acid batteries, such as when you touch the cable to this negative post of the good car. Touch the connector with force and confidence. Oh yeah, they're called lead-acid because they have a sulfuric-acid solution in them. Not something you want to a) wear, b) clean-up.

When it starts: Cable-person/Helper will quickly remove good car black from good car battery negative terminal. Cars are disconnected (but keep track of the end of that cable for a few more moments, don't touch it to any metal surface). Release starter button like you normally instinctively would.

Keep it running.

Remove dead car black cable from starter post/battery. Black cable is now safe.

Remove dead car red cable from previously selected (positive) ground.

Remove good car red cable from battery positive terminal. Both cable ends are now safe.

Cautions: While doing this be aware of fans, belts, pullys, and dangly things even/especially hair/headwear/neckwear/jewelery. If you have gloves and protective eyewear they might be a good things to put on. (Note to self: put these in the back of the car now.) Check one more time to make sure the car is in neutral, with the brakes set.

Is there any way this is not a two-person job, it seems you need a 'starter' and a 'cable-person'? The cable-person job can be made safer depending on where you hook-up (and on who the starter person is... Check the brakes/neutral again. please.).

Any comments on 6v jumper cables vs. 12v cables? [Edit: Sorry, was off writing when Prof. Henry's above post came through.] How about the idea of just carrying a motorcycle battery in place of a hot-shot would they have enough amps to get a satisfying crank?

-VeryTangled/Jeff

Last edited by VeryTangled; 12-30-2012 at 03:19 PM.
VeryTangled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 03:38 PM   #11
George/Maine
Senior Member
 
George/Maine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mid coast Maine
Posts: 1,878
Default Re: Jump Starting?

I think to much knowlege is bad for a simplie, start and run problem.
Buy a new 6 volt battery.
George/Maine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 03:46 PM   #12
Old Henry
Senior Member
 
Old Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 5,762
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeryTangled View Post
Would carrying a 6v motorcycle battery be a substitute for a similar 12v jump box?
-VeryTangled/Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeryTangled View Post
How about the idea of just carrying a motorcycle battery in place of a hot-shot would they have enough amps to get a satisfying crank?

-VeryTangled/Jeff
If the motorcycle battery was off of a 3,900 cc motorcycle (that's the size of the 239 cu.in. V-8 flathead) it might work. Think you can get one that big? Not likely. For a 6 volt battery to start a flathead V-8 it must have 700 cold cranking amps (CCA). Just a quick browse for the largest motorcycle battery I could find was 350 CCA - only half of what you'd need. Of course, they're all 12 volt - not too good to start 6 volt systems. Might as well carry a spare car battery but how to keep it fully charged and ready when you really need it? That's just one more thing to worry about.

CCA's are critical. I found that out after being sold a 6 volt golf cart battery by a "knowledgeable" NAPA guy when I first restored my car. Great big huge battery. Had to be good. Right? - to power a golf cart? NO! I soon found out that if I wanted to move my car with the starter motor the battery would move it quite a ways but to start it in the winter? not so good. Gotta have the CCA's.
__________________
Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome)
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness
Old Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 04:36 PM   #13
George/Maine
Senior Member
 
George/Maine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mid coast Maine
Posts: 1,878
Default Re: Jump Starting?

If you rewired it and have a volt meter.
1 take wire off dist.
2turn key on and the end you took off dist put neg lead,other end to grd or pos on batt.Should read 6 volts.
3 now put wire back on and leave neg test wire.
4 should read about 4.5 volts.
Don,t leave key on to long.
You better have a fire exstingihser handy.
You have to nice a car to be runnig amps wire and burn her up.
You have about 40 degs down there now get a good 6 volt battery.
Back in the day they used 10 w and put some k1 in old days.
I don,t think thats the problem.
Wireing my guess.
Every day there is a start and run problem.
Burnt coils most often.
George/Maine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 06:04 PM   #14
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,856
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Hi Jeff, I am trying to figure out exactly what you are showing in some of these pictures (as viewed on my smart phone ) and wondering if they represent a problem that just happened?
I personally do not like jumping a 6V system with 12V. This would have to be an absolute last resort option for me to even consider doing. Especially when connecting 12V directly across a 6V battery after I once had one explode doing this years ago. The option to connect one lead to the starter terminal would be the only thing I would consider if the main battery had enough charge left to fire the ignition system.
This may sound a bit extreme, but I am planning to carry a backup Optima 6V battery, jumper cables and a battery charger/tender with me on long distance tours in 2013.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 07:00 PM   #15
G.M.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Florida and Penna.
Posts: 4,471
Default Re: Jump Starting?

JM I doubt the battery exploded from the 12 volts. There were no doubt fumes from the battery and the spark from the jumper cables ingnited them. A dead 6 volt battery is going to pull the 12 volt jumper battery down in the 9 or 10 volt range. A larger charger puts this much voltage into a 6 volt battery initially when the 6 volt is very low. Best solution is to carry a 12 volt battery pack like I have. This has a switch and I connect the cables on the ground and starter side on the solenoid or right on the starter. Turn the ignition on, turn the switch on the battery pack which runs the starter and it starts right up. If the battery is to low for coil voiltage hook it right on the battery terminals then turn to pack switch and start it. Turn the battery pack off as soon as it starts. This pack also has an air compressor a 12 volt cigarette socket and 110 volts AC. Has it's own built in charger. Large diameter or wire size cables are best for jumpers, but the shorter the better. G.M.
__________________
www.fordcollector.com
G.M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 07:29 PM   #16
VeryTangled
Senior Member
 
VeryTangled's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: (Not far enough...) Outside of DC
Posts: 3,386
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Oops. How did this turn into "How to fix my broken car?"

My real question is how do I keep from breaking my car when stranded on the road?

I put the photos in to illustrate some of the systems we have worked on in the time we have owned the car. I hoped the photos would stir some conversation.

None of the systems are broken right now. Our car runs just fine right now, thank you very much. <tapping foot>

I really am feeling like JM. A spare Optima, a set of 2 gauge cables, and a 6v tender with 150' extension cord would be only thing I might be able to rely on.

-VeryTangled/Jeff
VeryTangled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 09:00 PM   #17
George/Maine
Senior Member
 
George/Maine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mid coast Maine
Posts: 1,878
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeryTangled View Post
Thanks everyone for getting this rolling. Please, more comments.

So far, I get this much. Please correct all of this as you see necessary.

Make sure the dead car is in neutral, with the parking brake set and wheels chocked.

The good car should be turned off, and have itself secured (probably in Park) with the parking brakes set. You should never have to start the good car, it should have plenty of cranking power. Besides if you do start it, that seems to increase the chance of blowing ITS computer, turning the helper's good deed into their nightmare and your ulcer. I guess if you want to be ultra-safe you could disconnect the good car's negative battery terminal (requiring a tool), but be aware this will likely upset the car's computer/radio/alarm/seats/backup-camera/auto-parking system/transwarp-drive/etc.

Dead car: Turn everything off. All lights, blowers/motors, radios, even shut the door if you have a dome light. Don't turn anything on until the cars are disconnected. Unplug all accessory adapters and aftermarket stuff. (Editor: If you have a battery cut-out, and haven't turned it on yet, then go directly to Jail. Do not collect $200.)

Good car: Red onto positive battery terminal.

Dead Car: Red onto ground (chassis, block, starter case/bolt? Advice please.) Both red hook-ups are done, to be removed after start-up, remove it from the dead car first when the time comes.

At dead car black onto starter post/battery negative. (Note: One connection is not hooked-up, black to the good car's negative battery post. Controlling this cable from the good car end of things is safer than trying to make this momentary connection while starting the car in the engine compartment of the dead car.) Some seem to indicate it's okay to go the battery ground terminal vs. the starter post, yes/no? Connecting to the battery seems to expose more of the bits to being blowed-up, but the battery disconnection will be easier to do than from the starter post (of a running engine, even though it's away from the spinny pieces). A thought: Can you get to the starter post from under your car? Maybe you feel this is a safer place to reach under and disconnect after the car is running. (Remember chocks/brakes please.)

Dead car: Switch on

Dead car: Starter on

Cable-person/Helper will momentarily touch black coming from the dead car starter/battery to the good car's battery negative terminal. (Starter should spin rather well?) Cars are connected, hopefully for the shortest amount of time possible.

Caution: When lead-acid batteries charge/discharge they off-gas hydrogen and oxygen, a combustible combination. Try not to make too many sparks nearby lead-acid batteries, such as when you touch the cable to this negative post of the good car. Touch the connector with force and confidence. Oh yeah, they're called lead-acid because they have a sulfuric-acid solution in them. Not something you want to a) wear, b) clean-up.

When it starts: Cable-person/Helper will quickly remove good car black from good car battery negative terminal. Cars are disconnected (but keep track of the end of that cable for a few more moments, don't touch it to any metal surface). Release starter button like you normally instinctively would.

Keep it running.

Remove dead car black cable from starter post/battery. Black cable is now safe.

Remove dead car red cable from previously selected (positive) ground.

Remove good car red cable from battery positive terminal. Both cable ends are now safe.

Cautions: While doing this be aware of fans, belts, pullys, and dangly things even/especially hair/headwear/neckwear/jewelery. If you have gloves and protective eyewear they might be a good things to put on. (Note to self: put these in the back of the car now.) Check one more time to make sure the car is in neutral, with the brakes set.

Is there any way this is not a two-person job, it seems you need a 'starter' and a 'cable-person'? The cable-person job can be made safer depending on where you hook-up (and on who the starter person is... Check the brakes/neutral again. please.).

Any comments on 6v jumper cables vs. 12v cables? [Edit: Sorry, was off writing when Prof. Henry's above post came through.] How about the idea of just carrying a motorcycle battery in place of a hot-shot would they have enough amps to get a satisfying crank?

-VeryTangled/Jeff
You took the time to write this and your daddys car runs well.


LOL LOL LOL
George/Maine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 09:06 PM   #18
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,856
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.M. View Post
JM I doubt the battery exploded from the 12 volts. There were no doubt fumes from the battery and the spark from the jumper cables ingnited them. A dead 6 volt battery is going to pull the 12 volt jumper battery down in the 9 or 10 volt range. A larger charger puts this much voltage into a 6 volt battery initially when the 6 volt is very low.
I don't know George, could have been ignition of fumes. If spark occurred, it happened after the jumper clamp had been connected to the battery terminal and the starter began cranking. All I remember was the 'KA BOOM!!' and feeling fortunate that I did not get hit by pieces of the case or get any acid in my face.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 02:44 AM   #19
Chisel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 232
Default Re: Jump Starting?

Interesting subject. Growing up on a farm we always had a low or dead battery on something. We had 6V, 12V and 24V systems and had our share of explosions with battery acid and battery parts flying. This does happen and getting covered with battery acid is not good. I am gun shy using an unmatched voltage as a jumper source. I have done it many times with no problems but it's not worth the pain when it goes wrong. When you put a 12v battery across a half dead or dead 6v battery you have two batterys bucking each other. The 12v battery will over power the 6v battery and you will have current flow through the 6v battery which will get the hydrogen gass warmed up and the hydrogen fumes start to form a cloud around the battery. This sets you up for a nice big explosion if you get a spark from a generator brush or a loose jumper cable when you crank the old girl over.
Chisel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 06:21 AM   #20
richard crow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,760
Default Re: Jump Starting?

when you jump a car or truck you schould put one cable on the batt the other cable touch to ground away from the batt .this way if there is a spark it will cause no harm. i have been a mech for over 65 years i have worked for larg fleets been on thousands of road calls i have never had a batt explode on me . i can,t say that for maney of the guys i worked with. who would put both cables on the batt
richard crow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:32 AM.