Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-11-2019, 10:19 PM   #1
Bubsyouruncle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Gurnee, Illinois
Posts: 247
Default gasoline

Watched several utubes on eliminating ethanol from pump gasoline.


Aside from the flammability aspects, comments. Like, does it work?
Bubsyouruncle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 10:22 PM   #2
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,423
Default Re: gasoline

I read that the ethanol is part of the octane rating, so you have less octane and fuel when you are finished.
40cpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 12-11-2019, 10:52 PM   #3
tomcarman
Member
 
tomcarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Rochester Wa
Posts: 30
Default Re: gasoline

I know nothing about the science of gasoline. I do know from personal experience we use ethanol free gas in the '32 (33 engine) and all our auxillary lawn care equipment, etc. Because they tend to sit for months on end without use we don't worry about degradation and varnish etc. They always fire right up and run just fine. Perhaps if one required higher octane for a higher compression engine or performance this gas may not be the best. Don't know but would be very interested to hear more on the science on this thread. The ethanol free gas is more expensive but given it is used far far less than daily drivers the cost difference is insignificant.
tomcarman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 10:59 PM   #4
tubman
Senior Member
 
tubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 5,242
Default Re: gasoline

This subject was addressed on, I believe, the H.A.M.B. several month ago. The general consensus (backed up with some good data and examples) is that it is labor intensive and ineffective at best and downright dangerous in any case

I live in the "Lake Country" in North Central Minnesota, and ALL of the gas stations (even the ones at the supermarkets!) have "non-oxygenated" (no alcohol) gas.
tubman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 11:09 PM   #5
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,366
Default Re: gasoline

If there are boats or farm equipment around there should be non-ethanol gas available. Easy to find around here, it is all I use in my equipment.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 11:48 PM   #6
WABOOM
Senior Member
 
WABOOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 253
Default Re: gasoline

Yes you can easily force "phase separation" with water. If you start with 92 Super unleaded you end up about 88 octane petrol gasoline. It's a bit of a hassle, but if you can't easily buy Non-ethanol, it is a great alternative.
I can buy non-oxygenated/non-ethanol at about a dozen gas stations in a 15 mile radius of my home so it's not worth messing with it for me.
WABOOM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2019, 12:43 AM   #7
Emmit51
Member
 
Emmit51's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles/Santa Barbara
Posts: 37
Default Re: gasoline

As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.
Emmit51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2019, 08:35 PM   #8
WABOOM
Senior Member
 
WABOOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 253
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmit51 View Post
As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.
Petrol gasoline is very hydrophobic. But since you are a chemistry teacher...
you already know that. Tell me more about gas and water mixing. Have the molecular properties changed recently?
WABOOM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2019, 08:42 PM   #9
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN/FL
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: gasoline

Buy the eth and burn it up. Don't let it sit in your car forever. granted I only use non-ox as it's available. Lot of guys use only eth all the time.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 02:26 AM   #10
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,094
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmit51 View Post
As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.

But, as I understand it, gasoline and water do not mix! So how then does gasoline "absorb" water? From what I have read over the years, underground gasoline pipelines get water in them and the water settles out in low areas of the pipeline, and some water gets carried to the terminals where gas is stored in those huge tanks. These tanks have provision for draining off the water that settles out of the gas to the bottom of the tanks. This has been going on since the start of transporting gasoline through underground pipelines.
However, with the advent of diluting gasoline with ethanol, the water accumulation in the pipelines became a big problem because the ethanol would absorb that water and be ruined. So ethanol has to be shipped to the terminal by rail tank cars, which is much more expensive, as well as detrimental to the environment!
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 03:04 AM   #11
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,094
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmit51 View Post
As Tubman said, very dangerous. I also dont think it will be that effective. You will likely absorb as much water into the gas as you get ethanol out. Thermodynamics are against you. I teach chemistry to graduate and undergraduates in my day job.

No more dangerous than filling up your lawnmower gas tank!
Here's an idea, taken from your local airport, where a standard preflight operation is draining a sample of fuel from each tank and checking it for water (which always settles to the bottom of the tanks). Failure to drain off the water (usually from condensation in the tanks) often results in a crash. So if you need to easily remove the ethanol for your A, mower, saw, etc., find a tank from a wrecked light plane and mount it in a stand in the same position as it was in the plane so that the sump drain is the lowest point. Add the appropiat amount of water to a five gallon gas can and fill it whenever you fill your daily driver. Shake and add to the plane tank. When it's full, wait a few days and drain off the ethanol/water sludge. Presto! Non-ethanol gas! Leave the plane tank outside. After all, airplanes often sit outside.
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 04:05 AM   #12
51 MERC-CT
Senior Member
 
51 MERC-CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hartford, Ct
Posts: 4,623
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
No more dangerous than filling up your lawnmower gas tank!
Here's an idea, taken from your local airport, where a standard preflight operation is draining a sample of fuel from each tank and checking it for water (which always settles to the bottom of the tanks). Failure to drain off the water (usually from condensation in the tanks) often results in a crash. So if you need to easily remove the ethanol for your A, mower, saw, etc., find a tank from a wrecked light plane and mount it in a stand in the same position as it was in the plane so that the sump drain is the lowest point. Add the appropiat amount of water to a five gallon gas can and fill it whenever you fill your daily driver. Shake and add to the plane tank. When it's full, wait a few days and drain off the ethanol/water sludge. Presto! Non-ethanol gas! Leave the plane tank outside. After all, airplanes often sit outside.
Probably a lot easier to find and use an automotive fuel tank with the drain plug in the bottom (virtually all vehicles had them)
My old Piper J3 did not have one in the fuel tank.
And yes, even automotive tanks sat outside.
__________________
DON'T RECALL DOING SOMETHING FOR MYSELF BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LIKES OR DISLIKES
51 MERC-CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 09:29 AM   #13
chiefdave
Member
 
chiefdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Warsaw, MO
Posts: 34
Default Re: gasoline

There is a web site, pure-gas.org, that lists stations that offer non-ethanol gasoline by state. While not all inclusive it may give you a place to start. I live in a small town of 2,000 and we have 5 stations the offer real gasoline, one even has dedicated pumps.
chiefdave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 10:16 AM   #14
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,204
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
But, as I understand it, gasoline and water do not mix! So how then does gasoline "absorb" water? From what I have read over the years, underground gasoline pipelines get water in them and the water settles out in low areas of the pipeline, and some water gets carried to the terminals where gas is stored in those huge tanks. These tanks have provision for draining off the water that settles out of the gas to the bottom of the tanks. This has been going on since the start of transporting gasoline through underground pipelines.
However, with the advent of diluting gasoline with ethanol, the water accumulation in the pipelines became a big problem because the ethanol would absorb that water and be ruined. So ethanol has to be shipped to the terminal by rail tank cars, which is much more expensive, as well as detrimental to the environment!
Gasoline with ethanol was never transported by pipeline. A small trace of water in ethanol gas makes it milk colored. It is blended at the local pipeline terminal. Ethanol gasoline is also stored in tanks with a domed roof. Gasoline without ethanol is stored in floating roof tanks.
__________________
Palindromes:
Do geese see God?
Was it a car or a cat I saw?
Won't Neil call a Walla Walla client now?
Dr. Gong! Get ale to my motel at Egg-nog Rd!

41 woodie https://41fordwoodie.weebly.com/

Last edited by mrtexas; 12-13-2019 at 10:22 AM.
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 10:20 AM   #15
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,204
Default Re: gasoline

"while conventional gasoline can dissolve up to 150 parts per million of water at 70F, the situation is different for gasoline oxygenated with 10% ethanol. This 90% gasoline/10% ethanol blend can dissolve up to 7,000 ppm of water at 70F. When this blend is cooled, both the water and some of the ethanol become insoluble. Contacting the blend with more water also draws ethanol from the blend. The result, in both cases, is two layers of liquid, an upper ethanol-deficit gasoline layer and a lower ethanol-rich water layer. This phase separation of the gasoline/ethanol mix lowers the octane number and may cause knocking in an engine, while the engine will not run at all on the ethanol/water layer." https://petroclear.com/resources/dont-be-phased.php
__________________
Palindromes:
Do geese see God?
Was it a car or a cat I saw?
Won't Neil call a Walla Walla client now?
Dr. Gong! Get ale to my motel at Egg-nog Rd!

41 woodie https://41fordwoodie.weebly.com/
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 10:47 AM   #16
Emmit51
Member
 
Emmit51's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles/Santa Barbara
Posts: 37
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by WABOOM View Post
Petrol gasoline is very hydrophobic. But since you are a chemistry teacher...
you already know that. Tell me more about gas and water mixing. Have the molecular properties changed recently?

Yes, gasoline is hydrophobic, but when ethanol is added, it becomes more hydrophilic. "pure" gasoline, which is made up of many types of molecules and additives, absorbs water, but very little. When you mix gasoline with water, they form two layers, but each absorbs a little from the other. There is a small amount of water dissolved in the gas, and a little bit of gas dissolved in the water.



When you add ~10% ethanol to the gas, it gets more complicated. At that percentage, ethanol fully dissolves in gas. Dissolving ethanol in gas makes the gas more hydrophilic, and so if you mix ethanol-gas with water, it will still form two layers, but you will dissolve more water into the ethanol-gas, than you would with pure gas. likewise, you will dissolve some ethanol and more gas into the water (since the water is now more hydrophibic with ethanol dissolved in it).



If you let the 2 layers sit for a while to equilibrate, you will have a layer of gas that is saturated with water and still contains ethanol, and a layer of water/ethanol that is saturated with gas. Even though ethanol is completely miscible with water, you will not be able to remove all the ethanol form the gas. To get close to complete extraction, you would need to repeat the process with fresh water multiple times. Bear in mind that in addition to removing some ethanol from gas, you are also probably removing some other additives, such as detergents as well.


For anyone who does this, aside from the potential hazards of sloshing around gallons of flammable liquid and exposure to vapors, you might also consider what you will do with the water waste that is saturated with gasoline? I hope no one is dumping this "down the drain".
Emmit51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 11:24 AM   #17
philipswanson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bonita, CA
Posts: 996
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
No more dangerous than filling up your lawnmower gas tank!

. Add the appropiat amount of water to a five gallon gas can and fill it whenever you fill your daily driver. Shake and add to the plane tank.
So what's the "appropriate" amount of water for 5 gallons?
philipswanson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 12:01 PM   #18
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,204
Default Re: gasoline

Non ethanol gasoline is saturated with water. All the gasoline storage tanks in a refinery have floating roofs and water drains. The floating roof is to minimize evaporation vapor emissions.
But water is a polar(meaning it has an electrical charge on it) molecule and gasoline isn't(being mostly paraffins and aromatics) so there is not much water dissolved in gasoline. BTW ethanol is also a charged molecule(not as charges as water however) which is why water dissolves in it.
__________________
Palindromes:
Do geese see God?
Was it a car or a cat I saw?
Won't Neil call a Walla Walla client now?
Dr. Gong! Get ale to my motel at Egg-nog Rd!

41 woodie https://41fordwoodie.weebly.com/
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 12:06 PM   #19
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,366
Default Re: gasoline

I checked yesterday, the price of 91 octane 10% ethanol and non-ethanol gas is the same price. So if you can get the non-ethanol don't think attempting to modify 10% ethanol would be worth the effort.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2019, 01:18 PM   #20
WABOOM
Senior Member
 
WABOOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 253
Default Re: gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by philipswanson View Post
So what's the "appropriate" amount of water for 5 gallons?
The basic idea is to add around 10% water to pull out the 10% ethanol. So 2 quarts of water goes in and 4 quarts of cloudy ethanol/water comes out.
WABOOM is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 AM.