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Old 07-02-2019, 11:15 PM   #1
Chris Haynes
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Default The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I got this E Mail from Terry this evening.

Hello to All,

2 July 2019

Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected] and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.

New Engine

This project started in 2007 and updates were sent by Email from April 2010 until May 2015 when it stalled because of sky-rocketing cost and lack of quality control. Previous updates can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

I apologize to the many people that requested to be on the update list after May 2015. I did not respond because the project stalled. You are now on the list.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

Another way to describe the new engine is to say that the exterior looks like a Model A engine however the interior has 1970 engine technology. Changes include 5 main bearings, counterweights on both sides of connecting rods, 2 inch diameter insert main and connecting rod bearings that can be bought at any auto parts store, oil pressure to mains, rods, and camshaft, streamlined intake ports, hard exhaust seats, thicker (3/16") water jacket wall on the water inlet side, Model B water deflector, added material between exhaust ports and cylinder, replaceable cam bearings, rear main seal that is available at any bearing supply house, and many other things.

The good news is that the Model A engine project has been resurrected and is now alive and well.

Cylinder Block

In January 2019, I received a phone call regarding the availability of the new engine, and sadly replied with the news that the project was stalled. The caller just had a newly rebuilt Model A engine fail, and in our conversation, he mentioned that he knew someone that was having replacement cylinder blocks manufactured in China, and asked if I would be interested. I replied that I was interested and wanted to learn more.

I learned that the factory manufactures cylinder blocks, heads, and even short blocks for many applications. I have a copy of their brochure and their clients include Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, Land Rover, and many others.

This factory is utilizing "state of the art" processes and quality assurance that will ensure the new Model A engine will have an exterior appearance as the original and machining tolerances similar to modern manufactured engines.

Where this project started and stalled as a one-man project, I am now working with others that have the same enthusiasm as I.

As a means of getting started, both an original cylinder block and the one good casting of the new design from Lodi Iron Works were sent to the factory along with all of my SolidWorks models. The factory measured the original cylinder block to create a SolidWorks model of the exterior and used my SolidWorks models for the interior and machining, and replied with a favorable cost estimate.

Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft

These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block. SolidWorks models have been provided and quotes from the same factory that committed to manufacture the cylinder block have been requested.

One huge advantage of working with a single factory in China is that they are responsible for everything from raw materials to finished product, When this project was active here, many factories would have been involved, and I can imagine a lot of finger pointing.

Next Update

The next update will be after preliminary bids are received for the rest of the parts and a schedule can be worked out. The initial quote for the cylinder block took less than a month, and I am hopeful that the next quote will also be short.





At this time we are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates on a timely basis.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Interesting! Terry is known for his quality work.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Look forward to hearing more progress. Single sourcing block, crank and rods is a huge advantage.
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Old 07-03-2019, 06:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!
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Old 07-04-2019, 03:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

We shipped 69.1 million tons of iron ore in April.
You'd think someone could make a few blocks out of it.
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Old 07-04-2019, 07:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!

I have 3 foundries here very close to me that want to cast them. the problem I am having here right now is that foundries are all very busy. But after one foundry owner called me yesterday to discuss this, and other things, I believe we are a couple of weeks away from a block using my new process. I also have a foundry that does automatic molding that is interested but it would mean making metal tooling, which I wanted to avoid.


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Old 07-04-2019, 03:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Now that this concept seems to be nearing availability, how many of you are scheming to build a much higher horsepower version? What are you considering?
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I have 3 foundries here very close to me that want to cast them. the problem I am having here right now is that foundries are all very busy. But after one foundry owner called me yesterday to discuss this, and other things, I believe we are a couple of weeks away from a block using my new process. I also have a foundry that does automatic molding that is interested but it would mean making metal tooling, which I wanted to avoid.


Tod
Now THAT is GOOD NEWS!
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Now THAT is GOOD NEWS!

Yes. I will report back after my meeting next week.



I will probably cast a 3-main iron block, a 3-main aluminum, and a 5 main aluminum this month.



Don't look for it in this thread as I don't want to hi-jack the thread.



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Old 07-04-2019, 05:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I would like to be able to build a good higher HP reliable engine for serious touring.


If I have a choice, I would much rather BUY AMERICAN and support our own industries.


Our country has suffered a great loss of basic manufacturing industries and for a strong independent country, we need to have the ability to manufacturer ourselves and not have to depend on offshore sources.


This is my opinion and I am sure others may disagree.


Chris W.
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Old 07-05-2019, 09:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It should be easy for the Chinese to cast them. About 15 years ago, I was working with Tractors, specifically Ford 8N, The old Central Tractor, in Iowa, was selling brand new engines from China for under $3000. That's NEW! Not rebuilt! So, it is entirely possible. It is also possible that foundries in the US are not up to casting something like a block. NAFTA and other "Free Trade" deals have stripped us of our skills.
Terry




Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!
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Old 07-05-2019, 03:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

[QUOTE=Terry, NJ;1774447 ............brand new engines from China for under $3000. That's NEW! Not rebuilt! So, it is entirely possible. It is also possible that foundries in the US are not up to casting something like a block. NAFTA and other "Free Trade" deals have stripped us of our skills.
Terry[/QUOTE]

Terry you are spot -on that plus the EPA got a bit out of control. By design. Part of 'the Plan.' But that's another story.............
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Old 07-05-2019, 08:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Let's really go back in time! Remember Crosely? Powell Crosely came up with a method for stamping the engine blocks. Basically, like stacking a bunch of head gaskets till you had an engine block. This is doable! The trouble was when Croseley's started delaminating and rather than come up with a solution, they started casting their blocks. Here we are,80 years hence, new materials, new methods, new adhesives, etc. It can be done!
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWPASADENA View Post
I would like to be able to build a good higher HP reliable engine for serious touring.


If I have a choice, I would much rather BUY AMERICAN and support our own industries.


Our country has suffered a great loss of basic manufacturing industries and for a strong independent country, we need to have the ability to manufacturer ourselves and not have to depend on offshore sources.


This is my opinion and I am sure others may disagree.

Chris W.

I fully understand this but let's think about it. We have the same situation here in Australia - in fact since GM and Ford closed local production, I know people who will not buy either brand because of the way the closures affected our local manufacturing. If every country took the same attitude and their people only bought locally made stuff, what would be the end game for doing so? IMO, because of the smaller scale runs, manufactured good would be more expensive all over the world, the world economy would slow, then, well, we know where that leads.
Everybody thinks that their own country - the one where they grew up and where they feel most comfortable is the best. I think they are all correct and we ignor that to our peril.
Nothing is as simple as we first think.
I have diverged from Model As so I'll leave it at that!
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:50 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Why did this turn into a political discussion. The post is about a 5 main bearing engine block. It would be nice to keep it about the engine and what it can do and acheive.
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:15 AM   #16
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Terry, I guess I never knew that about the Crosley engines.

Doesn't sound like a very good idea. I don't think I'd want to be involved with that technique.

Usually the old tried and true methods come back to prevail
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Morning...All the tried and true methods were once cutting edge and thought to be damn near impossible...just think of Henry figuring out the flat head block as a one piece casting! Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-06-2019, 11:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Good Morning...All the tried and true methods were once cutting edge and thought to be damn near impossible...just think of Henry figuring out the flat head block as a one piece casting! Ernie in Arizona
Yes and to think they did a lot of it under cover in the old Greenfield Village shops, that project was kept pretty secret away from prying eyes.

Ford turned the automotive world on it's ear and everybody was trying to play catch up and imitate what Ford had accomplished. The man was a genius.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Yes and to think they did a lot of it under cover in the old Greenfield Village shops, that project was kept pretty secret away from prying eyes.

Ford turned the automotive world on it's ear and everybody was trying to play catch up and imitate what Ford had accomplished. The man was a genius.
If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Because He Could!



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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:46 AM   #21
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Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry

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Why did this turn into a political discussion. The post is about a 5 main bearing engine block. It would be nice to keep it about the engine and what it can do and acheive.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:42 AM   #22
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Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry
Exactly..............Like it or not what Terry said is the truth.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:45 AM   #23
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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
Maybe because 'Clara' sounded too 'slow'???

That Dahlinger lady that went after Henry was nothing but a gold digger. I regarded her as a low life from the histories that I read..
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:32 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Henry Ford was a smart man but he had a knack for finding other smart men to make his "minds eye" ideas work. Charlie Sorensen and an author put together a book from the daily diaries that he kept while working for Henry for the 40 years he was there. It has a lot of info from the development of the model T through the model A and eventually, the V8. Charlie didn't design the model A engine either but he knew how to pattern it and cast it so he and a lot of other men put it all together. One of Henry's employees of the Ford aircraft division figured out how to get the 40-horse power out of it when it was not doing so under the original design.

Henry Ford's true genius, if you want to call it that, was as an industrialist with an eye toward complete consumerism. If you make it good and make a lot of them, the price can come down to where it will still be profitable. The more you make, the lower the price. Pay your workers well and they will be driving your new products just as well. You can call it political discussion but what it boils down to is that it would be nearly impossible to replicate what Henry did in this day and age. Too many factors have changed such as labor unions and government regulations about how to build an automobile. Just these two factors alone stifle consumerism. It's not impossible to make a profit building cars these days but just look at the prices and you can see that "every man" may not be able to afford a new Ford.

A 5-main motor will open a new chapter in the history of the model A but we won't know how it works out until folks decide they want to go that route. The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration but it may bring in some unknown reliability factor that attracts customers to it. It certainly wouldn't hurt a thing. A lot of folks just make a hot rod out of the old A anyway if they want to go faster.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-08-2019 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Evening all...For me, Terry's new 5 main engine might just be what gets younger folks to play with Model 'A's. If they run well and are a bit longer lasting and able to have just a bit more power and not leak on the floor...and still sound like Model 'A's...we might have 'A's running for another 90 years...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-14-2019, 06:11 AM   #26
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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?




sex sells.............!
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will this new technology address vibration
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

An inline four of this size would need a balance shaft to be totally smooth. You have to draw the line somewhere or you will end up with a totally different animal. I would be happy with a new B block and only three mains, but I definitely respect Mr. Burtz for stepping up to the plate and trying to make his vision of a better A engine a reality.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
I wish you all the best in this effort. This is a huge undertaking and with a few breaks you could provide a path forward for those of us who want to modernize the Model A without butchering it. Good stuff!
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

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Old 07-15-2019, 04:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello Terry, great to hear you are back on deck with this project. It must be 5 or 6 years since we visited you from New Zealand and you showed us your projects. I will be thrilled to buy one of your new blocks, and head too if you make that. Will the crankshaft go ahead too, or is it too early to say?
SAJ in NZ
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration.
You have an “original” babbitted Model A that will do 65 mph?

Consider it a unicorn!
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

This is not an update.

Thanks to all for your comments, questions, and encouragement.

I will try to answer a few questions.

Great to hear that the project is back on. Have you considered copying the original engine block with all of the defects, for the Purists in the club?
Regards, Ron


Yes, a goal is to make the purists happy. The cylinder block copied was manufactured after April, 1929 and has the 3 1/4 inch serial number pad and the small bump to add wall thickness when the hole from valve chamber to rear camshaft bearing was added. There were no exterior changes after the bump was added. Purists needing a cylinder block before April 1929 will have to remove the bump possibly shorten the serial number pad, and possibly remove material where the Throttle Control Assembly (A-9725) mounts. By using a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) to create a SolidWorks model from the original cylinder block, all details that are not on the original Ford drawing (A-6015) such as draft, parting line locations, protrusions where water jacket support wires exited the cylinder block, and other details were captured. Steve Plucker has an extremely detailed Cylinder Block Guide that can be found at
http://www.plucks329s.org/pdf/engine...%20guide_1.pdf


Will this new technology address vibration?
Daren


Flathead answered your question by stating that a balance shaft is needed to fully eliminate vibration. A more detailed explanation can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com/13-crank...gn-a-6303.html
Second order vibration effects are another problem. Modern inline four cylinder engines incorporate two balance shafts with counterweights turning in opposite directions and at twice engine RPM. These balance shafts cancel a second order vibration caused because the two ascending pistons and two descending pistons do not always have identical opposing acceleration. Remember the connecting rod accelerations calculated earlier at TDC and BDC (+1936 g’s and –1081 g’s). Counterweights reduce crankshaft deflections and stress, but balance shafts do not. Balance shafts reduce loads on items external to the engine and increase passenger comfort. Since balance shafts do not reduce stresses in internal engine components and since there is no physical room for them in a Model A crankcase, they have not been considered in this engineering study.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

Dodge
I thought of this thread a day or two ago when talking to one of our club members. He hasn't taken poart in many runs lately - he is a pattern maker and they are flat out at work making switching gear for some Chinese railroad. They freely admitted that they don't trust the stuff they have been getting from their own country.
I think that speaks volumes about the country. Todd, if you can keep your work out of China, all the better.
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Old 07-21-2019, 12:27 AM   #35
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My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve, Well said!
But the same applies here and I'm sure all over the world so don't feel special
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:18 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Bernie will give out free blocks.

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Originally Posted by steve hackel View Post
My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.

Your experiences mirror mine exactly with trying to have something made in the USA.

When I started this project more than 10 years ago and wanted to keep it in the USA, my quote for foundry tooling was more than $150,000.

The current quote for tooling in China is in the $40,000 range.

My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:43 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
Did you see that in Good old Berkeley California you can't call them manhole covers
anymore, their now maintenance hold covers......true story

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Old 07-21-2019, 06:27 AM   #40
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Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.



My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
I'm sure things are just the same over there as here. Decisions on what a company will do are made not by those who know the business but by accountants who know nothing but counting beans!
In my book, accountants have a lot to account for, if you get my drift!
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:45 AM   #41
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

First let me comment that I have the utmost respect for Terry and Tod for taking on this task.

So now the real discussion has started. The available market to sell these engines and/or components. The limited markets I see are three, Restored show cars, Touring cars and the Hot Rod/Racing market.

I cannot comment on the viable Restoration market, so someone else can help out here.

Touring is the largest market I see, some engineering improvements and improved materials can make a more reliable engine, both Terry and Tod have been working on these requirements. The motor has inherent design considerations that will never make it comparable to a modern engine though.

I have read about people thinking the HotRod and Racing market is viable. To some degree yes, but the Racing market is restricted by the rules of the organizations and the rule as it stands is the blocks must be original manufacture units. There are other restrictions but this is a tough one to overcome. The HotRod market is not restricted with the exception of investment. The Donovan "E" motor is a beast, aluminium (lots of it) 5 mains, larger than "B" motor, proper oiling system, ect. Depending on who you talk to, 50 units sold over how many years?

So the bottom line question;
How many units do we think can be moved along?
Honestly, if the demand was for 1000 units and the commitment was there I am sure Terry or Tod would have units available now.

BTW, Tod has one block done and running,(at least shown in a video) I know someone who has been waiting for his block going on 18-ish months.

Best, John
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Morning all...Many Model 'A's are running with fragile patched up engine blocks that don't have a great deal of life left in them. A question to the engine builders on the barn...How many of you would order blocks from Terry for your customers and at what price do you think you could successfully offer them to your customers? I know that I would order one...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

from just this last week, Tod posted this on the HAMB
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OHV and block 1.jpg (42.2 KB, 233 views)
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

That picture of Todd's new block & OHV head is so darn nice.....
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:25 PM   #45
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That picture of Todd's new block & OHV head is so darn nice.....
Agreed, but how many in the hobby will 'put their money where their mouth is"? A lot of 'I like it', but how many "I WILL buy it"s out there??
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:42 PM   #46
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Although somewhat long winded, that was my point exactly! No matter what most people say or where they are coming from, they tend to shop " dollars " rather than availability or quality , so their decision is usually related to liking the better product but liking the cheaper price even more. Retail products are not individual swap meet items for sale on a vendors table. If you can find the exact same item for less $ elseware, go right ahead and buy from that person - if you find a similar item for less, then buy that item instead - but don't complain that it's not the same quality of the more expensive one you passed on to buy the one you are holding in your hand.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve,

the silence is deafening

a short recent Chinese story;
a manufacturer of autoclaves recently won the contract to build a large unit for an aircraft mfg in china. in the notes for construction, "due to quality control issues, no critical components of the pressure vessel may be made from steel produced in china"
that is a statement right there.

John
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:59 PM   #48
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So sad but true.... I am both at the mercy of a USA buyer and a foreign manufacturer, and neither of them are ever happy meeting in the middle
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:40 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Most A owners are 70+ and bitch about a qt of synthetic oil costs 6 bucks!
You think they will pay thousands for a block?
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:36 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

To do a proper rebuild on an original engine is a lot of money. If a person is willing to fork over that much, the additional money to have a new, high quality block seems pretty much a no brainer. There will always be some who stand by and second guess every bit of progress made, but give it a few years, we'll see. I happen to think the new block will sell well. I dont think a new block, even an aluminum one, will face the same discrimination as say fiberglass fenders do.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:38 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I just had my engine rebuilt at a cost of $5,500.00. Inserted, Pressure oiling, "B" counterbalanced crank. All these are features are in Terry's parts and much better than what I have.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:15 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,

can you elaborate on the build some?
1. repairs to make block sound, stitching, seats, sleeves etc.
2. "A" or "B" block
3. original cost of block, crank, rods, pistons etc.
4. what else, flywheel lightening? clutch change? cam, change or regrind?

Also, if "B" block, which main bearings were installed?

Thanks, John
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:06 AM   #53
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

we have 4 on order from Tod
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Old 07-23-2019, 03:03 AM   #54
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To do a proper rebuild on an original engine is a lot of money. If a person is willing to fork over that much, the additional money to have a new, high quality block seems pretty much a no brainer. There will always be some who stand by and second guess every bit of progress made, but give it a few years, we'll see. I happen to think the new block will sell well. I dont think a new block, even an aluminum one, will face the same discrimination as say fiberglass fenders do.
Eagle, I agree 100% on your comment.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:11 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I think Terry's engine is great, it might spark new interest in younger people, you might see more model A's on the road. Everything new needs to have the bugs worked out of it, how will these engines be tested, on an engine stand running constantly for days on end or in a vehicle?
thanks
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:09 AM   #56
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I have not seen a price for one of these?
That is where the rubber meets the road folks.

5-6 K might work
Much more and out of the park.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:25 PM   #57
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Chris,

can you elaborate on the build some?
1. repairs to make block sound, stitching, seats, sleeves etc. No block repairs.

2. "A" or "B" block. Diamond "A" Block.

3. original cost of block, crank, rods, pistons etc. The Block was in my car along with the rods. The "B" Crank and pistons are included in the rebuild costs.

4. what else, flywheel lightening? clutch change? cam, change or regrind? A Birely cam. V8 clutch.

Also, if "B" block, which main bearings were installed? Not a :B: Block.

Thanks, John
It is an inserted engine with pressure oil, Adjustable lifters, "B" crank, Lightened flywheel & V8 clutch, Vibration dampener, Mallory distributor, Webber carburetor, topped off with a Yapp Riley Two Port Head. I have been gathering parts for years for this build.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Chris,

Will it be ready for the San Fernando Valley Model A Swap Meet? It would be nice to see it and hear it run.

At least you should make a YouTube video like Charlie Yapp did for the Cyclone head.

David Serrano
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:37 PM   #59
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I have not seen a price for one of these?
That is where the rubber meets the road folks.

5-6 K might work
Much more and out of the park.
Dave,

I think that is one of the main reasons why a lot of people hesitate to buy a new block. It's not necessarily the cost but buyers want to know what they are getting for the price, e.g., will it require a lot of extra machining, can my engine builder work with the new block, etc.

Making small batches of blocks makes it difficult to set a consistent price because the fabricator is trying to recover his costs on each unit or make a small profit. Also, a small foundry may not be able guarantee a volume of engines for a set price.

What about a guarantee? Do I have any recourse if the block is defective?

It's fine if you are a trained machinest and have the equipment to play with a new block. Unfortunately, I'm don't have those skills or machinery. I would have to find a machine shop to do the work and the cost would be an unknown factor.

David Serrano
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:57 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,


sounds like it will be a good running motor.

the head was not included in the cost mentioned? right?

curious on the "B" crank mod to fit in "A" block, also is it cross drilled to feed the rods?

thanks, John
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:24 PM   #61
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Hey Chris,

Will it be ready for the San Fernando Valley Model A Swap Meet? It would be nice to see it and hear it run.

At least you should make a YouTube video like Charlie Yapp did for the Cyclone head.

David Serrano
Probably not as it is too damn hot to work on it.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:28 PM   #62
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Chris,


sounds like it will be a good running motor.

the head was not included in the cost mentioned? right?

curious on the "B" crank mod to fit in "A" block, also is it cross drilled to feed the rods?

thanks, John
I bought the head well over a decade ago. They are now obsolete as Charlie has stopped producing them. I also had he flywheel, harmonic balancer on hand. I know that Joe Sivils built the engine for pressure oiling. I'll have to ask him about the crank.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:10 AM   #63
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks
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Old 07-24-2019, 12:26 PM   #64
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When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks
He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods.


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Old 07-24-2019, 12:53 PM   #65
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods."

Who's engine are you referring to? This thread has turned away from the original title.

The Terry Burtz engine will have a machined block with a machined crankshaft with machined rods to fit the block.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:09 PM   #66
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Again, this is not an update, but I will try to answer some questions.

Many questions ask about price. I cannot answer because I am not involved in negotiations with the factory. All I can say is that the new engine price will be competitive with a rebuilt engine that has inserts, crankshaft counterweights, connecting rods with inserts, and is balanced.




Hi Terry
Glad to see your project is moving again. Do you know Tod Buttermore? He is also just about to start production on his new model a engine. I'm not sure there is enough market to handle 2 new model a engine blocks. You might want to contact him and see if you can work together and build on fantastic new block.
Thanks, Eric


After the project stalled in California due to lack of quality control, inability to follow a procedure, and spiraling cost, I contacted Tod in Jan. 2015 in an attempt to work with him. Although we are competitors, we have no animosity. Pasted below is our Emails.

Tod Buttermore <[email protected]>
Fri 1/16/2015 9:57 AM

Terry,

I took a quick look at the pattern pictures and I would have to say that none of the foundries around me could use that tooling as it is. Given the work load I have, I don't think I would have time in the foreseeable future to be of any help to you. I would think there has to be a foundry closer to your home that can do that casting. The only reason my foundry can do anything for me is because I am involved. Sorry for the let down.

Tod

Tod Buttermore <[email protected]>
Tue 1/13/2015 4:09 AM
Terry,
Email received. I will look at the pictures and give you my assessment.
Tod

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 12:20 AM, Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Tod,
It was good talking with you about the New Model A Engine Project.
I have been working with Lodi Iron Works. When their only technical person in the office retired, this project shifted to the back burner.
Engineering is based on the original Ford drawings of the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rod.
SolidWorks and rapid-prototyping were used to create "masters". These masters were then used to create the foundry tooling.
The machined castings are documented with SolidWorks.
The tooling has produced several good castings if you don't count foundry screw-ups like failure to dry the water based mold wash, failure to fully engage core prints, interrupting the pour which caused a cold shut, etc. Only one good cylinder block without screw-ups has been cast, and that cannot be repeated because the personnel working on the floor that made the good casting are no longer employed at Lodi Iron Works.
The tooling pictures are located in my skydrive. You can access them from the link below:
http://1drv.ms/1dOxxFe
or
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...=folder%2c.JPG
At Lodi Iron Works, all core boxes were filled with PepSet with the exception of the water jacket core boxes.The water jacket core boxes were blown using IsoCure.
The last picture shows the pattern for the crankshaft and the next to last picture shows the aluminum match-plates for connecting rods and main caps that fit Lodi's automated molding line.
Over the next few days, I will send the core assembly procedure, pictures of assembled cores, pictures of castings, and pictures taken in the foundry.
I hope that we can work together to provide this new product to the Model A hobby.
Please reply so that I know that Email works and that you were able to view the skydrive pictures.
Terry Burtz



Hello Terry
I figured the engine project had stalled, and I'm glad to see you're back at it!
Will the block be cast iron?
Best regards, Carl


Yes, the cylinder block will be a cast iron. On drawing A-6015 Ford specified "A" iron. To keep costs at a minimum, instead of us specifying an antique alloy like "A" iron, the alloy chosen will be one that the factory uses for modern engine cylinder blocks.. The main bearing caps, connecting rods, and crankshaft will be a modern malleable iron, and again, it will be an alloy that the factory uses for modern engines. I have asked for properties of these alloys and will be happy to share them with anyone interested.



Good Morning Terry:
When you can quote either parts or and assembled short block please advise.
I have a “B” engine sitting on my Garage Floor but if this new engine were ready to go I think it would be the “real deal”.
Question
How would you handle Engine Block Numbers?
Thank you, Al


We are working with the factory to get quotes on parts, not a short block. The reason for not providing a short block is that most people want to choose the valve train that they want, choose pistons that they want, choose cam and timing gears that they want, along with other variables. Many people also have a collection of parts on the shelf that is waiting for the next rebuild. Regarding engine block numbers, for quality control purposes, after a cylinder block passes final inspection, a unique sequential serial number will be stamped on the machined surface where the A-6017 "Cylinder timing gear cover side" is mounted. On an assembled engine, this number is hidden, but easily accessible by removing a few bolts. The pad above the water inlet on the side of the cylinder block will be blank unless you request that we stamp it. We have the correct stamps with the different numbers (depending on serial number), and we can stamp it for you.



How about creating a go Fund Me page or a Kickstarter page to fund this?
Anne


Thank you for your suggestion. Money is not the problem. Many people have offered to make a deposit, The problem is to find a competent manufacturing facility that can produce a quality product for an affordable price. The project stalled several years ago due to spiraling costs and lack of quality control.



________________________________________
Hello Terry, great to hear you are back on deck with this project. It must be 5 or 6 years since we visited you from New Zealand and you showed us your projects. I will be thrilled to buy one of your new blocks, and head too if you make that. Will the crankshaft go ahead too, or is it too early to say?
SAJ in NZ


For this project, the crankshaft and connecting rods are included. Any head can be used because all interfaces for attaching parts are exactly as original.





When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks


Nothing needs to be dismantled. The "new engine" consists of a fully machined cylinder block, connecting rods and a crankshaft. The Ford drawing for machining the cylinder block calls for the cylinders to be reamed to 3.873 to 3.874 inch diameter, and then rolled to 3.875 to 3.876 inch diameter. Rolling does not produce a very good surface for the rings, so the plan is to have a diameter between 3.875 and 3.876 inch diameter with a honed 45 degree cross-hatched surface finish. See the following for surface finish. https://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceT...efinishing.htm
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:14 PM   #67
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
"He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods."

Who's engine are you referring to? This thread has turned away from the original title.

The Terry Burtz engine will have a machined block with a machined crankshaft with machined rods to fit the block.
The pictures I posted are of Terry's test castings.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:05 PM   #68
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Thanks for the detailed answers to the questions that have been posed. The clear and concise answers give a non-technical person like me a lot of confidence in your project and the product you will deliver.

David Serrano
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Old 08-19-2019, 01:25 PM   #69
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I received the following progress update from Terry Burtz today:

-----------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

19 August 2019


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected] and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

Also see: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782 for additional information.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others to have the "new engine" manufactured in China at a factory that manufactures OEM parts for several customers.

The others that I will be working with include John, Bill, and Leonard. John has a company in Hong Kong and Virginia and has over 30 years of experience in having things manufactured in China and imported into the USA. One of John's products is a vintage cast iron 4-cylinder 3-main L-head cylinder block similar to a Model A cylinder block. John will be responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance. Bill will be responsible for accounting and disbursements. Leonard will be responsible for receiving orders and shipping the "new engines" to customers, and maintaining a list that ties customer names to the hidden serial number (part of quality assurance). I am the 4th member of the team and I will be responsible for everything related to engineering.

The 4 of us met at Leonard's home in Santa Ana, CA on the morning of Friday, August 16 to get to know each other and discuss our working relationships, and responsibilities. Leonard and his wife Kay were preparing for an annual meeting where the members of the Orange County Model A club, Southern California Oldsmobile Club and Antique Engine Club get together for a fun and educational meeting on Saturday, August 17.

After meeting with Leonard on Friday, John, Bill, and I retreated to the hotel where we were staying to have a 5-hour technical discussion regarding the new engine project. Many things were discussed including surface finishes, dimensional tolerances to 4 digits in certain areas, casting wall thickness, press and slip fits for dowel pins, hard exhaust valve seats, replaceable camshaft bearings, balancing, different alloys of iron (cast and ductile) that will be used for different parts, small parts that will be included like the dowel pins that locate the flywheel housing to the cylinder block, main bearing studs, and nuts, dowel pins in the crankshaft where the flywheel is attached, woodruff key for crankshaft timing gear, connecting rod wrist pin bushing, connecting rod bolts, and much more. Also discussed is the need for verification of design by third parties before the factory is turned on for production.

We talked about asking for a small quantity (6 sets of parts at most) for evaluation before production. One set of parts will be used for display and shown with pan rail up so people can see the 5 main bearings, crankshaft counterweights on both sides of each connecting rod, bosses for oil passages, rear main seal design, and many other features. The other sets of parts will be built by others for testing and evaluation.

John is a hands-on, grease under the fingernails type of guy who has a passion for detail and we can talk for hours about everything from Chinese culture and their way of doing things to the smallest technical detail.

On Saturday at Leonard's, I gave about an hour-long presentation to the attendees regarding the "new engine" which included features of the new design, history of problems with working with foundries in California, how the project stalled in 2015 because of the lack of quality control and spiraling cost increases, and how the project was resurrected when Leonard put me in contact with John. After I spoke, there was a question and answer discussion where the audience asked technical questions and I was happy to answer them.

The picture attached was taken while I was talking. I am wearing the straw hat by the "no speed limit" sign and John is wearing the white shirt and standing in front of the black toolbox.

John will be traveling to China in early September for technical discussions with the factory. If any questions arise, I am a phone call or email away.

Even with the added tariff on auto parts from China, our goal is to provide a quality product at an affordable price that is competitive with the cost of a rebuilt engine.

A deposit to cover 1/2 of the tooling cost has been made, and tooling is now being designed.


Cylinder Block

As mentioned in the 2 July 2019 update, 2 cylinder blocks were sent to China. One was original and the other was the one good casting made by Lodi Iron Works. In addition, SolidWorks files of the internal cores and machining were sent.

Although existing tooling has made cylinder blocks in 2 different foundries in California, all new tooling will be made in China. The reason for this is because the factory in China needs to assume full responsibility. The factory in China has been told that my SolidWorks files of the interior are for reference and can be modified as needed, however, the SolidWorks file for machining cannot be modified. If the factory in China were to use my tooling and/or interior SolidWorks files as is and had a problem, it could be argued that we gave them direction and that I was responsible for the problem.


Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft

These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block and they will be made of malleable iron. The 1932 Ford V-8 crankshaft was cast malleable iron, and most modern engines use malleable iron crankshafts.

SolidWorks models have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China is to follow the SolidWorks models.

Dimensional and balancing tolerances are being specified to be equal or exceed the tolerances on the Ford drawings.


Next Update

We are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates including pictures as the project matures.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

.
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File Type: jpg Seminar Picture at Leonards.jpg (128.4 KB, 215 views)

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Old 08-21-2019, 12:19 AM   #70
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,


Thank you for the very informative update.


It sounds like you have really done your homework.


The Model A hobby is looking forward to having a source for good quality new upgraded engine components.


Chris W.
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Old 08-23-2019, 01:59 PM   #71
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I want to thank everyone for Emailing encouraging comments and asking questions. Sometimes 2 or more people ask the same question. When this happens, I just pick one question to answer. Questions are unedited with the exception that I remove last names. It takes 2 days to send the updates by Email to contacts on my Email list because my free Hotmail account will only allow me send 500 BCC Emails in a 24 hour period, and I can only send 50 at a time.


Terry,
I see your back on the new engine. I have a few questions, first is what size are the main bearings @ inch like the B?, will it be oil pressurized? will the cam bores be larger than stock, are you going to use the Model B exhaust port design which flows better?
Thanks
Bill


All 9 bearing journals (rods and mains) on the crankshaft are specified to be between 2.0000 and 1.9990 inch diameter with .125 inch fillet radii. The insert chosen is used in GM engines built from 1955 to 2003. Front, center and rear mains use a pair of inserts. Intermediate mains (2 and 4) and connecting rods use a single insert. The insert is Sealed Power #2020CP. Do a Google search and you will find many sources.

Oil pressure will be supplied to all 9 crankshaft bearings. There are 5 camshaft bushings that are replaceable. The front, center, and rear camshaft bushings will have oil pressure supplied to them. The #2 and #4 camshaft bushings will block off the drilled oil passages. The engine builder will leave these passages blocked if using a 3 bearing camshaft. If using a 5 bearing camshaft, the bushings should be drilled to provide oil pressure.

Inside diameter of camshaft bushings is specified to be between 1.5615 and 1.5625 inch diameter which is stock Model A. If you wanted larger camshaft bores in the cylinder block for a higher lift camshaft, just remove the camshaft bushings and let the larger camshaft journals ride on the cast iron cylinder block like a stock Model A.

Exhaust ports are stock except that they have replaceable hard seats (MAHLE 218-7535). Intake ports have a streamlined flow path however they are stock size. Engine builders are usually concerned about intake port flow, not exhaust port flow. Intakes do not have hard seats so they can be enlarged by engine builders for larger valves.

More can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com



Hi Terry,
Great news. I think it’s really going to happen this time it sounds like you connected with the right people.
I attended one of your seminars at your house after one of the castings came back
and saw first hand what your doing.
My comment is that maybe you should also consider a flywheel as the counter weights add some mass that could be taken out of the flywheel and it would also be nice to have it made to take the modern diaphragm clutch people are using.
The flywheel cost would probably be in line with what it costs to lighten and modify
A stock one.
Thanks for getting going again,
Dodge



My fingers are crossed in anticipation that the design will become reality. I believe that we have the right team to pull this off. A much lighter weight flywheel will be our next project. John, our team member that is responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance has flywheels manufactured in China for another application. For some unknown reason to me, Ford cast Model A flywheels in a vertical position instead of horizontal. If you were to lighten a stock flywheel, porosity (on the side that was up while casting) is always opposite to the balance hole. We will cast flywheels horizontally with the ring gear side up so any porosity will be on the ring gear side. Our new flywheel will also have the ring gear support shoulder on the other side of the ring gear so that engagement of the Bendix will not apply forces that want to remove the gear instead of pushing it harder against the shoulder.



Hi Terry, nice to see that you are making progress on the motor. My local foundry have just completed a totally new design for twelve cylinder Ferrari cylinder heads, also new inlet
manifold for six webber ( special short Ferrari type) outstanding job. They are also casting V8 85 twin spark cylinder heads from original patterns.
If you have any further trouble give them a call. Mr Robin Hyhof, Giltec Catings Dunedin.
They have done some complex castings for me in both alloy and bronze.
Cheers,
Ken



That sounds like a very capable foundry in New Zealand. Thank you for the contact information. Unfortunately, Model A people are cheap and cannot afford the same things that Ferrari people throw money at.




Hello Terry

Congratulations on getting your engine project going again. Will the new blocks accommodate five-bearing camshafts like the early 1928 Model As? That would provide better cam support for running overheads.

In the past you mentioned using roll pins to index the bearing caps to the engine block. Are they sufficiently stable compared to dowel pins?

Best regards,--Carl



See the answer to Bill at the beginning where I talked about 5 cam bushings, replaceable cam bushings, oil pressure, removing cam bushings for a higher lift camshaft, etc.

Instead of roll pins, I specified 1/8 inch diameter x 3/8 inch long dowel pins (McMaster Carr 98381A470). The cylinder block will have a press fit and the main cap will have a slip fit.

Roll pins are nice because hole diameters do not need to be as precise.



Terry,
Thank you for the update. I. Appreciate being kept in the loop. Perhaps thus would make a great mate fir our Cyclone A-B Cylinder Head.
Thx
Kevin



All stock interfaces for attached parts have been documented from Ford drawings so any after-market parts will work if they fit a stock Model A engine.



I wouldn't be surprised if someone builds one of these up with a supercharger and electronic fuel injection. A cast steel crank option would be good for that. Gregg


Iron foundries usually pour cast iron and malleable iron alloys. Steel parts are usually poured in a different foundry. It could be done but at a higher cost.





Terry
Will assembly be in China? Or US?
Joe.



The "New Engine" consists of a cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods.
These will be loose parts and the engine builder will have his choice of pistons, rings, camshaft, valve train, timing gears, insert bearings, etc.

The only assembly that will be done in China is wrist pin bushings in the connecting rods, dowel pins at the connecting rod cap interface, camshaft bushings in the cylinder block. 10 dowel pins in the cylinder block for main cap indexing, 2 dowel pins in cylinder block to align flywheel housing, 4 hard seats in the cylinder exhaust ports, 2 dowel pins in the crankshaft for flywheel alignment, and the Woodruff key in the crankshaft.



Is there a real need for camshaft bearings? Will the crank be hardened so it won't wear in the bearing areas? Will the main and rod bearings be available "off the shelf", i.e. small block Chevy or similar, or special made for your engine? Jim



Modern engines have replaceable cam bearings, and that is why we chose to use them. For a stock engine with light valve spring pressure, cam bearings are not needed. If someone wanted to make a new camshaft with higher lift lobes, the camshaft bearings could be removed and the larger camshaft journals on the new camshaft would ride on the cast iron cylinder block.

The crankshaft will have the same material and heat treat as similar crankshafts being made.

Front, center and rear mains use a pair of inserts. Intermediate mains (2 and 4) and connecting rods use a single insert. The insert is Sealed Power #2020CP which is used in many 4,6, and 8 cylinder engines and they were used from 1955 until 2003. The inserts are very common and they were used in small block Chevy's and many other engines. They are available at most any auto parts store and even from Amazon and Ebay.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:48 PM   #72
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Dear Terry,
I have extremely limited experience of Chinese made parts but I understand that they can be less than rigorous when it comes to materials to the point where you may get a part that machines like cheese, or glass. I’m very impressed with your persistence and progress so far and as a Model A parts seller and restorer I’m very interested in your blocks.
Best Wishes, Rob


Parts made in China without good quality control can have the problems that you describe. The factory that has been selected specializes in the manufacture of cylinder blocks and other engine components, and they have excellent quality control. John (our team member responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance) will not accept anything unless it meets our requirements.




HI Terry,
Thanks for the update.
I have a question re the new engine, are you intending for it to have a fully pressurized oiling system?
Regards Peter


Yes, all 9 crankshaft bearings and all camshaft bearings will be supplied with oil under pressure. The crankshaft is also drilled to provide oil to the connecting rod bearings.

There are many other changes, and I encourage you to check out
http://www.modelaengine.com





My name is Stephen ,I. Own and drive a 1928 Model A Ford .
Just finishing a long drive Toronto to Nova Scotia about 3000 km .
Wish some how this engine could be made in the USA . I am a aircraft mechanic and
tolerances in my field are close. A lot of the after market parts are made in China
under Fords blessings .Much of it I buy from the. Mac. Snyder’s Burt’s these parts are
terrible /fit / longevity ,now you want them to build an engine I find that a Bit?
Got to be a way to keep the price and Jobs in AMERICA. and not to drive this engine off shore.
After three engine overhauls finally found one In Stokie ‘s that giving me the milage.
But I would like to buy an engine that a do not need to bring a tool chest with me..




I would be happy to have this engine produced in the USA, and tried to work with manufacturers in the USA for several years. When costs started spiraling upwards (from $800 to $2400) for just a raw cylinder block casting and there was no quality assurance to guarantee that the casting would not be full of porosity or have core shift, I put the project on hold in May 2015 because it became unaffordable (unless you want to spend $8000 or more). The project was revived as told in the previous (June) update when the team of John, Bill, Leonard, and myself agreed to revive it and make it affordable. John will be responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance. He has over 30 years of experience manufacturing parts (including iron cylinder blocks and other automobile parts) and is familiar with 4-place dimensional tolerances and quality control requirements.

The industry of casting and forging iron and steel has moved to third world countries, and that is where we had to go.

Ford does not bless and has no control over the terrible fitting aftermarket parts that you mention. For a fee, you can use the trademarked Ford oval and name on your product and packaging. Ford does not approve any design documentation for the part and has no control regarding quality control.





Hi Terry,
Receiving this latest update is very encouraging and exciting as a Model A guy.
Please add me to your email list, I get the emails through a Model A friend.
Have been following your project for several years and tried to find casting guys on the East coast to no avail.

Sounds like the team you've been fortunate to assemble is finally on the trail you had hoped for in you vision of an A engine upgrade.

I'm an electrical Eng by training and a mechanical engineer through my auto passion that has led me to be a manufacturing engineer in my present career.
As such, If at all possible I would love the opportunity to be one of your early Alpha customers to provide feedback on everything from fit/function/ integrity and overall performance.

Sad as it is, It does seem as if china and India are the only places that can do iron castings these days from what I can find out talking to casting source contacts I've made.

Best regards, best of luck in this new and exciting chapter of a modern A engine

Please feel free to ask if there is someway I can help you

Paul



Thanks for the encouraging words. Your observations regarding trying to find foundries on the East coast is the same on the West coast. During WW2 there were many shipyards around San Francisco Bay that were producing Liberty ships and others at a rate that was greater than the Axis powers could sink them. All of these ships required tons of iron castings that were poured and machined locally. Today, all of the shipyards, foundries and large machine shops are all gone.



Good day Terry,
Terry, if there is anything I can do to help, please feel free to ping me. I have been following your project for years.
I am interested in the project, I would love to contribute, I am willing to pre-order and pay for components, build and field test engines and provide field feed-back, I am not looking for anything but to help, I have a love for the hobby and have been running Model A’s for over 40 years. I am an avid car collector/builder and have built cars for museums and individuals, ranging from early Corvettes, vintage Chryslers, Chevys and of course Model A’s, as-well as hot-rods and vintage aircraft, I am a licensed Airframe/Engine tech and Pilot.

I am interested in field testing (I have several Model A’s that I can swap engines into), it’s common for me to tour for hundreds of miles on a single tour with the club that I am charter member of (the Worcester County Model A Club). Therefore it would not take long to begin to see field testing results. I have Model A’s with Mitchel Over-Drives, I could feedback results of performance with and without over-drives. I typically run Model B engines with the 40% bob-weight c-balance crank and 6.5:1 compression and all the Model B accessories. I would build engines at the horsepower you deem necessary for testing, whether it be mild or not, I would think most interested parties would be looking for something around 55/65hp, with an engine that can run at as much as 5000rpm, the Model A would comfortable when cruising at 2000 to 2500rpm, its perfect.

If there is anything I can do to help, please do not hesitate, I manage an ISO 17025 accredited dimensioned measuring laboratory, we hold temperature to 680F +/- 10F, therefore we know a little bit about measuring artifacts to exceedingly tight tolerances, including all sorts of hard dimensional gages, right down to good-old Gageblocks, our measuring capabilities are virtually unlimited, attributes such as; heights, parallel, squareness, bore size, lengths, pin diameter, Etc., Etc., is not a problem, and typically to six decimal places, or more. We also work with force, pressure and electronics, oven surveys, as-well-as others, for the sake of conversation.

Have a good day, and thanks for taking the time to see this project through, and thanks for taking the time to read this note. Ralph



Thank you for commenting. We are looking for independent third-party verification of the design. You have the skill-set that we are looking for.




Thanks Terry,
I hope this goes well for you.
My Son Tony is purchasing the machine shop from me but I am still doing R&D on new performance products. I have something I would like to ask and that would be an off the shelf tappet or lifter seems it’s getting harder to get adjustable lifters the problem is they should have a minimum foot of 1-1/8 or better yet the B lifter size of 1-3/16 that allows for better cam profile designs. I believe on the larger cam bore that will give me more room for profile design also.

Second question is oil pumps, are you bringing the oil out through a filter first with you insert bearing?
Thanks
Bill



All stock interfaces including the lifter bores are the same as an original Model A Ford cylinder block.

We are planning to make other parts in the future and will look at making an adjustable tappet with a larger diameter foot. Right now, we have our hands full with the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods.

Regarding oil circulation, a new "Oil Pump Drive Bearing" A-6560 will be provided. The new A-6560 is secured with a setscrew and will block off oil.

In the valve chamber, there is a horizontal passage (Full-length oil galley) between lifter bosses and cylinders that feeds oil to all crankshaft and camshaft bearings.

Oil can take one of two paths. For a stock unfiltered engine, there is a horizontal passage behind the 1/8 inch pipe plug on the side of the cylinder block which leads to a vertical passage which connects to the full-length oil galley. For a filtered engine, the horizontal passage behind the 1/8 inch pipe plug is plugged with a setscrew and all oil exits through the 1/8 inch plug. From there, oil goes through a filter and returns to the engine through the lower bolt of the "Cylinder Timing Gear Cover Side" (A-6017) which connects to the full-length oil galley.

Last edited by Terry Burtz, Calif; 08-25-2019 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:49 PM   #73
wrpercival
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

For those that may not have yet seen it, I received the following email update today from Terry Burtz regarding the development progress of the new engine.

-------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

24 Sep 2019


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected] and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

Also see: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782 for additional information including many questions and answers.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.


A lot has happened since the last update on 19 August 2019.

John, who is responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance, has been in China for the past few weeks. In preparation for his trip, 30% 3D scale models of all cylinder block cores, main bearing caps, connecting rod, and the crankshaft were rapid prototyped (3D printed) in plastic.

The purpose of providing the 3D printed models was to help the engineers in China understand what we want them to produce. The factory in China has SolidWorks models of the cylinder block cores, main bearing caps, machined cylinder block, crankshaft, connecting rod along with an original cylinder block and the one good casting from Lodi Iron Works for reference.


Cylinder Block

John spent days presenting the new design to the engineers in China, and John and I were in Email contact daily where questions and suggestions were presented and resolved.

The engineers in China are familiar with current design (2019) engines, and this engine seems a bit strange to them. It's hard for them to imagine why anyone would want to build an engine from the 1920's and use 1970's (50-year-old) technology.

My SolidWorks machining model has oil passages that will allow the oil to flow in two different directions. One direction is designed as original to not use an oil filter, and the other uses an oil filter. This two direction design where the engine builder can choose which to use requires oil passages to be drilled at compound angles instead of vertical, horizontal, or a simple angle.

The engineers in China didn't initially quite understand the reason for the oil passage design. However, from the questions they asked and the suggestions they made, my feeling is that they are are very competent and detail-oriented.

There are many places where a design error could have occurred. My SolidWorks models have not been checked against the original Ford cylinder block drawing. Additionally, the engineers in China convert everything to metric. The end goal of John's meetings was to assist and ensure that the engineers in China understand the SolidWorks machining model which will enable them to get their CNC file correct.

For example, I did not complete the SolidWorks machining model to include threads for setscrews to plug the ends of oil passages and other minor details because I was unable to get good castings. These minor details generated many of the questions.

In the end, the only change that was made to the SolidWorks machining model was to change the oil feed to camshaft bearing #5, and this change was needed to make room for the main oil gallery plug at the rear of the cylinder block.

I have suggested that when the engineers in China get their CNC machining file complete, that they then machine the one good cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works.

Machining the "good" cylinder block can verify that their CNC file is correct. The interfaces of attached parts (head, oil pan, valve chamber cover, timing gear covers, valve train, oil pump, etc) can be compared between the original cylinder block and the machined cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works to verify agreement.

After CNC machining, the "good" casting, it should be cut apart to verify wall thickness for every machined feature.

This wall thickness verification can then be used to make changes if needed to the SolidWorks models of the cylinder block cores.


Clear as mud? There are many details to check and verify. Relaying these things in our updates can sometimes make it seem that way.



Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft


These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block and they will be made of malleable iron. The 1932 Ford V-8 crankshaft was cast malleable iron, and most modern engines use malleable iron crankshafts.

SolidWorks models have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China is to follow the SolidWorks models. These are simpler parts (compared to the cylinder block) and will be worked on when the cylinder block engineering is complete.

Dimensional and balancing tolerances are being specified to be equal or exceed the tolerances on the Ford drawings.


Next Update

We are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates including pictures as the project matures.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.


The 7 attached pictures were taken during the most recent meetings in China.
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:18 PM   #74
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Terry,
Thanks for excellent detail, pictures/diagrams and report !
There is an aluminum engine (Donovan D) that used to be available from Mrs Donovan in very small quanity, i.e....only 30 ever produced...via Mrs. Donovan. This D engine was VERY expensive, compared to what you envision your creation costs !
The exciting part of interest , to me at least, is that YOUR engine oiling scheme mirrors the oil system of the D !! Very sophisticated oiling , compared to the original A and B blks ! This oil system of yours should enable your engine to last forever....given proper maintenance.
Thanks for not giving up on your/our dream of making such engine !
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:30 AM   #75
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

FYI - Terry Burtz recently posted the following update on the Model A engine block development:

---------------------------------------------------


Hello to All,



26 November 2019




Updates



In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com



If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected] and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.





New Engine



This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at: www.modelaengine.com



I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.



In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.



A lot has happened since the last update on 24 Sept 2019.



John, who is responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance, has been to China twice since the last update. Between flights on his last trip, I picked him up at SFO, and we spent several hours going over the design, physically seeing parts, and how the parts are assembled. John also took samples of the 3 studs used for new engine main bearing cap retention, and a A-6551, A-6550, and A-6561 distributor/oil pump gear and bushing assembly for the engineers in China to better understand the design and how parts fit together.



The cylinder block and main caps will be manufactured in one factory and the crankshaft and connecting rods will be manufactured in another factory. Both factories will be working together so that there are no conflicts.



Cylinder Block and Main Caps


The exterior of the cylinder block will be based on computer 3-dimensional models derived from CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) and Laser scanning of the original cylinder block that was sent to China.


The need for CMM and Laser scanning is because the Ford drawing of the cylinder block did not specify parting lines, draft, and many other details that were left to the discretion of the pattern makers.

For machining of the cylinder block, the engineers in China have made drawings that are based on my SolidWorks models that were derived from the Ford drawing.

Both the engineers in China and I have asked for minor changes to be made to the original SolidWorks design. We have worked through these changes, and are in agreement, so the design is "frozen" unless something unforeseen comes up.

The drawings that were created in China are dimensioned from an origin where 3 perpendicular planes intersect, and almost all machined dimensions are from these 3 planes. This dimensioning system is much easier to understand than the stacked dimensioning system used on the Ford drawing (A-6015).

My job, which I have just finished, was to verify that the drawings from China are correctly dimensioned. China works to the metric system, so all dimensions have been converted from inches to millimeters. We are on the 5th drawing revision, and I think that the drawings are good to proceed.

The first castings are scheduled to be completed by the middle of January 2020. John asked if it would be good to display the castings at the Turlock swap meet which is the last weekend of January 2020. My reply was no because the one good cylinder block casting from Lodi Iron Works was previously displayed by John LaVoy, the editor of Model A Times at Turlock for several years, and the new cylinder block from China should be identical.

Although the studs and nuts will have inch threads, they will be manufactured to metric Class 10.9 which is similar to SAE Grade 8 (150 KSI). The threads on the studs that fasten the main caps will be rolled which is stronger than cut threads.

The first two pictures attached show a SolidWorks assembly of the machined cylinder block along with main caps and crankshaft. The 3rd and 4th pictures are photos of the drawings from China that have been checked.


Crankshaft and Connecting Rods



John met with the crankshaft and connecting rod manufacturer to go over the design. John and I communicate almost daily when he is in China.

The factory in China typically rolls crankshaft journal fillets which is great because the material in the fillets is compacted by rolling which is a deterrent to fatigue cracks. They asked if we wanted rolled fillets and my reply was yes.

The factory also asked about balancing and I replied that we wanted the crankshaft dynamically balanced to 2 oz-in (1.41 Newton-cm) or less. The Ford Model A crankshafts were dynamically balanced to 3 oz-in according to Ford drawing A-6303.V-8 engines built during the muscle car era were typically balanced to 2 oz-in. New engines with higher RPM's are balanced even closer.

Another question asked was about hardening of journals and the rear main seal rubbing surface. My reply was that it would be good to have the hardness still intact if the journals were ground .030 inch undersize.

Several people have asked what bearing insert is being used. The answer is that all (main and rod) journals are 2-inch diameter and any of the following inserts can be used: Clevite CB-745 series, Federal Mogul 2020 series, King Bearing CR803 series, Sealed power 8-7065 series, and others. When I say series, several letters and numbers are used in the suffix depending on the material, radii, and undersize. We will be using a Clevite CB745P which is tri-metal and standard size.

Questions regarding what the rear seal have also been asked. The rear seal will be a radial lip seal with a steel housing. The new cylinder block and rear main cap will have a bore of 5-inch diameter, and the crankshaft will have the flywheel mounting flange (4-inch diameter) that is extended forward to provide a seal rubbing surface. The rear seal will be a SKF 39933, Timken 415035, or others with a 5 inch OD that seals on a 4-inch shaft.

SolidWorks models of the crankshaft and connecting rods have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China are to follow the SolidWorks models. 





Next Update

The latest schedule (subject to change) looks like we will have castings around the middle of January 2020, and machined parts in the middle of March 2020. The machined parts will need to be evaluated and tested before production begins.

There have been no changes that will have an effect on pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for a rebuild.

The next update will be after castings have been made which should occur in January 2020. These first castings will need to be cut apart or sonically tested to verify wall thickness before they are machined.

Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg assy, jpeg 2 for nov 2019.jpg (35.1 KB, 125 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0161.jpg (57.1 KB, 124 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0162.jpg (53.1 KB, 104 views)
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:51 PM   #76
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Even though I don’t understand most of everything of what is written, it is very exciting to see this coming together. I know I will need at least one motor. Can’t wait. Thanks Terry.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:19 PM   #77
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good luck on your engine project, I hope it works out.As a retired Tool and die maker can appreciate the amount of 3 d modeling and research that had to be done just for the project.Gary
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:14 PM   #78
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The U.S. has engaged in world trade since it's inception. We do not have to make everything in the U.S. for it's consumption. The leaders and businessmen need to provide something that the other countries need in order to have equal trade. Economic is complex and frequently involves several countries buying and selling to each other. If this is done with minimal greed and corruption, it will work. The U.S. was moving in that direction until the farmers got screwed with the agricultural trade with China.
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Old 12-11-2019, 02:18 PM   #79
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I see interesting things with 3D printed metal.
Laser melted powder method versus bound particles.

Might be possible to print them with the latest larger printers soon.

Right now, laser melted aluminium powder costs $800 per pound of finished product though.
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Old 01-02-2020, 09:48 PM   #80
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks to everyone interested in this project which should result in a new Model A Ford engine that looks totally stock on the exterior, but has 1970's technology on the interior. Interest in this project has generated lots of questions that I have answered by Email. What follows is a few of the more interesting questions followed by my answers. The questions and comments are in italics and unedited with the exception that I removed names.



Thanks Terry for the update. The new block sounds good and I am looking forward to getting it. I can handle the rest.

My “A” was built in June of 29. Even though the engine is original to the car as I knew both the original owner and the owner who sold me the car so I know it was not changed. The engine was made in October of 28. I would have to look at the stamp again to know it build location as I have forgotten. These blocks had a casting problem that deflected the water flow just a tiny bit. This was corrected in the later 29 blocks. Both the 28 and 29 castings had a high nickel content to rectify some of the heating problems and the shorter radiator. One of the solutions is to grind down the casting at the water inlet and this has helped about 50% of those I know of. Ford changed the water jacket casting in the middle to late 29 and increased the radiator height and installed a standard 3 row in the cars and 4 row in the trucks. The great race is generally run with the late 29 engine because the higher nickel content provides higher cooling and the block holds up better in general. I have a Brass Works 11 fins per inch and am pressurized. Not a perfect solution but getting me by until I change engines or try to trim the molding to recommended specs.

As you block is built to the later drawings, it will work great and I don’t expect any heating problems. I was going to build up another block but decided to wait for yours as it fixes everything and more. Thank you for doing this. For those of us that truly love the Model A, it is a real God Send.



Ford's design for cooling water is not very good. Cool water should enter the cylinder block between cylinders 3 and 4 instead of 2 and 3. The water pump should be located low so that it pushes cool water into the cylinder block instead of sucking hot water out at the end of the head. The water jacket should extend lower to the bottom of the cylinders. An even better cooling path would be to supply cool water near cylinders 1 and 4 and have hot water flow from the head between cylinders 2 and 3.

Since any of the above changes would alter the external appearance, they are not part of the "new engine" design.

During Model A production, Ford changed the deflector just inside the cool water entrance on the side of the cylinder block, and the "new engine" has the latest design deflector.



Wow, you just blow me away with your tenacity and perfection for design. Thank you.

I need a new engine for my 29 Tudor which I have tolerated the slow overheating problems inherent from when the car was new I am sure. It is a great and reliable engine with some TLC I have driven it for 40 K miles. I am waiting for your engine as I was convinced when I talked to you in San Diego a few years ago this was the right way to go. I am so excited about your work.

Everything is what I could hope for and more. Let us know when you need an order – I am ready. Can this be a short or full block? Don’t have to answer; just something to think about as a full block replacement would be good for me as at my age, I can change engines, but no longer have space or tools to do much rebuilding. I am ready either way. I have a “B” head, but has been resurfaced more than once I am sure. If the pistons are flat with the top it will work. The head has developed a crack, but does not interfere with anything or performance at this time. This is the reason I asked about the head. Will you have a recommended head or build one as well? I know this will be answered as well after the engine is tested and you can see what works best. So many great possibilities. Can’t wait to go touring with this engine. A drive is 100 to 200 miles. A tour for me is generally 400 to 800 miles. My engine is also inserted and I can drive 60 mph or slightly higher for a very short distance to handle traffic entering a freeway. I normally drive between 50 and 53 as that is my sweet spot. Even so, in warm weather it slowly heats so I have to drop to 40 or 45 to allow it to cool. My engine water baffling is the problem. I had it scoped and it is clear of any debris and the walls are clean. My car is original, so I still have an original front end and it is not designed for high speeds. More than you want to know. Your engine will solve all my problems. Thanks again.



The "new engine" consists of a cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods. All small hardware (dowel pins, studs, nuts, thrust washers, connecting rod bolts, and woodruff key) is included. Cam bushings will be installed in the cylinder block, and the small end of the connecting rods will have bushings installed.

To make a short block, you will need to supply a camshaft, lifters, valves, valve guides, timing gears, oil pump and oil pump/distributor drive gear, pistons, rings, and bearing inserts. Since there are several varieties of the above-mentioned parts, you or your engine builder can build exactly what you want. All interfaces where parts attach are identical to stock so everything will fit.

The "new engine" cylinder block will be machined to the Ford drawing (A-6015) that has the pistons protruding .032 inches above the top of the cylinder block. If your head has been surfaced numerous times, the recess in the head may need to be machined deeper.



I have been following the progress of the new motor for a few years now and I’m very excited, great work! I can’t seem to find a previous discussion about the weight of the new motor with the new crankshaft and other parts. You expect it to be a heavier motor than the original, correct? By how much roughly?


Thanks for your question and interest in this project.

The new engine parts will be heavier than the weight of the original Model A engine parts.

Regarding the cylinder block, I thickened the left side water jacket wall by 1/32 inch to make it more resistant to freeze cracking, added material between the exhaust ports and cylinders to make that area less prone to cracking, added 2 intermediate webs to support the 5 main crankshaft, added bosses for the main oil galley and all feeds to main and camshaft bearings, added material to the rear main area to accommodate the larger 2-inch diameter bearing, and made all 5 main bearing caps larger because the bearings are larger and to make them stronger. I will guess that the new cylinder block and main bearing caps will be close to weigh around 20 pounds heavier than an original cylinder block with main caps. All of these changes will not be visible from the exterior.

The new engine 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights, larger bearings, and extended flywheel mounting flange for the rear main seal will weigh just over 60 pounds. This weight is close to the weight of 4 cylinder racing engine crankshafts with similar displacement engines that raced in the 30's, 40's, and 50's.

The connecting rods are also heavier for strength and to accommodate the 2-inch diameter big end bearing, and they will weigh about 1.7 pounds each.



Thanks for the update.
Two questions is the new engine going to have a full pressurized oil system and is proposed to have larger intake valves?



Yes, pressurized oil is supplied to an oil galley that runs the full length of the cylinder block.

From this galley, oil is fed to the main and camshaft bearings.

The crankshaft is drilled, and oil will be fed from the main bearings to the connecting rod bearings.

Intake valve ports are stock and can be enlarged by the engine builder if desired. Intake ports are streamlined for better flow.



I'm liking it Terry! Make sure the block has enough material for the main brg. studs won't pull out, I've seen that happen on Model B racing engines when std. length studs were substituted for the stock bolts. The result is disaster!


All studs and nuts will be the equivalent of Grade 8 hardware.

Stud threads will be rolled (cold-formed) instead of cut for better finish and grain direction.

Main bearings 2 and 4 will use 7/16 dia. studs that are UNC and UNF. The UNC end will engage the cylinder block by just over 2 diameters (7/8 inch).

Main bearing 5 (rear main) will be retained with 1/2 inch dia studs, and again engagement into the cylinder block is just over 2 diameters (1 inch).

Main bearings 1 and 3 (front and center) will have studs that are 1/2 UNF at the top (like original for castellated nut) and reduced to 7/16 inch dia. before the cylinder block/main bearing cap interface.

To summarize, 8, 7/16 - 20 UNF 12 pt nuts (McMaster Carr 90759A450) and 2, 1/2 - 20 UNF 12 pt nuts (McMaster Carr 90759A550) are used to retain the main bearing caps. All threads are Class 3.



Hi Terry, Having played with A engines and their head gaskets. ( I used to make commercial annealed copper head gaskets in various thicknesses) Have you thought about having the block 'figure of eight' machined for round copper wire inserts into the block. No more gasket problems! Looks like the project is proceeding smoothly.


Yes, I have given it thought. In fact, I have a HAL DOHC engine that is 5 main and based on a Model A cylinder block. With DOHC, it has a circular groove for wire around the cylinders. No head gasket is used because the water passages are sealed with Permatex #2.

I consider a wire groove something that a performance engine builder would add because the groove configuration would be different for an L head, F head, or DOHC.

The "new" engine will have all stock interfaces with no groove.

Thanks for the question.



Hello Terry

I’m pleased to see that the engine project is still underway.

Early 1928 Model A camshafts had 5 bearings, while later Model A camshafts had 3. Will your 5-main engine use 3 or 5 bearing camshafts?



The new cylinder block will have 5 camshaft bearings with bushings.

The #1, #3, and #5 camshaft bushings will have holes in them for pressure lube from the main oil galley.

A 3 or 5 bearing camshaft can be used.

Camshaft bushings #2 and #4 will not have oil holes and the bushings will block off the oil passages.

If a 5 bearing camshaft is used, the engine builder will drill holes in camshaft bushings #2 and #4 to open the passages for oil pressure.



Hi Terry
It is encouraging to hear about the great progress you are making on the new engine. You did a little seminar for me at our CCRG Jamboree here in Visalia several years ago but a lot of things have happened since then.
I know it is kinda far in the future to plan anything ... especially for us older folks ... but Visalia is going to have the central California Jamboree again in April 9 - 10 in 2021 and would love to have you do a show and tell about your new engine. You might even be in production of he engines by then and have engines running and taking orders. I sure hope so since several people in our chapter who are very interested in your progress and are even looking for a good engine. I have re-built several engines with inserts etc. but they don't have the advanced technology and dependability you are incorporating in your new engines.
Let me know if this is something you would be interested in putting on your calendar and we can also plan for our agenda. As before we will be happy to provide you with a room and meals for the event.



Thank you for the invitation.
I would love to do a presentation at the next Jamboree, however, I am hesitant to commit at this time because I don't know if I'll have parts to display.
We expect to have castings towards the end of January 2020, and machined parts in the middle of March 2020.
If the schedule holds, yes, I will be there.
We need to talk again at the end of Jan 2020 when I will have a better idea of the hardware schedule.



Hi Terry,
Great work and thank you for what you are doing.
Will one be able to use sae size bolts ( I. e. Oil pan ) on the new block?



Although all hole locations are dimensioned in millimeters, the threads will be UNC or UNF depending on location.

Some threads like the oil pan attachment bolts will be Class 2 (looser fit), and some like the flywheel attachment bolts will be Class 3 (tighter fit).

To make a long story short, no metric threads are used and any fastener used in an original Model A engine will work with the new engine.
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:59 AM   #81
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

to those questioning Chinas ability............


complete BMW motorcycles have been made there for some time for the Germans


I am sure they have no interest in throwing their high quality business model away.


the chinese can make poor quality or great quality- all depends what you want to pay.
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Old 01-05-2020, 11:29 AM   #82
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When Henry Ford and investors started to produce cars back in 1903/04 with the first model A, They were at the mercy of foundries to produce their castings. When the moved to the Piquette Avenue plant, they set up a small foundry to do the little parts (mostly the brass stuff). They got into hock with the Dodge Brothers to fabricate a lot of their parts that ended up in making them shareholders in Ford Motor Co. They had a lot of quality control problems with the Dodge Brothers and others. When Ford had the new Highland Park plant built, they finally had their own foundry to cast stuff for themselves. They still didn't make everything but they were getting closer as time went by.

The point is that casting projects that turn into a manufacturing businesses generally always have to end up with their own foundry in order to control things the way they want them to be.

I hope that folks that enter complex projects like this are successful. It's a monumental task to get to an end product that will be reliable in function and longevity and pay off for the folks involved. May the new year bring good fortunes to all that make this and similar efforts. We have to keep the old Fords on the road somehow.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:13 PM   #83
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Amen
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Old 01-06-2020, 02:35 AM   #84
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Yes, gong xi fa cai, May it be a good one.
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Old 01-06-2020, 05:54 PM   #85
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
Yes, gong xi fa cai, May it be a good one.


Gong Show??? The Unknown Comic??

I don't know what this is.
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Old 01-07-2020, 12:44 PM   #86
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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It’s “Happy New Year” in Chinese.
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Old 01-26-2020, 10:56 AM   #87
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry Burtz recently posted a progress update on the Model A block project. Following is a copy of his post:

----------------------------------------------------

To All,

Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected] and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at www.modelaengine.com

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 26 Nov 2019.

As mentioned before, the cylinder block and main caps will be manufactured in one factory and the crankshaft and connecting rods will be manufactured in another factory. Both factories will be working together so that there are no conflicts.


Cylinder Block and Main Caps

SolidWorks models of all internal cores, main bearing caps, machined surfaces, an original cylinder block, and the one good cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works were provided to the factory in China and the instructions were to follow the machined model exactly, revise the internal cores if needed and to use a laser scan of the original cylinder block for the exterior.

The machined surfaces drawing made from my SolidWorks file is close to being acceptable. One more iteration is needed because their fore and aft tooling holes need to be moved inward.

During December, I asked to review and markup the 3-D model of the exterior cylinder block created by the engineers in the factory we are using. Unfortunately, many small details did not look right, and it became obvious that the factory was attempting to model the cylinder block exterior using 3-D drawing instead of laser scanning. The previous update (26 Nov 2019) addressed the need for laser scanning to capture every minute detail.

To confirm this, John had a friend overlay the raw laser-scanned cylinder block on the drawn 3-D cylinder block from the factory. It was clear that more refinement was needed to match the exterior surfaces of the new cylinder block to the original casting.

Fortunately, John understands these differences and the problem. He is currently working on another project that requires having a complex sheet metal assembly laser scanned in preparation for manufacture in China.

To get the exterior of the new cylinder block correct, John has contracted with CAM Logic Inc located in Oxford, MI to clean up the laser-scanned file of the original cylinder block. This cleaned up file will then be used to create the exterior pattern for the new block. The first 2 figures show the laser-scanned cylinder block. The next 2 figures are of a model from CAM Logic that will be used to create the pattern.

CAM Logic will also combine the core assembly with the laser-scanned model to verify exterior wall thickness.

It is Chinese New Year right now so factories throughout the country are shut down until mid-February. After the holiday, John will meet with the factory and work with them to have the models from CAM Logic integrated into the design.

Unfortunately, the timing of these design changes along with the Chinese New Year is going to delay us at least 2 months. John will have a better idea of schedule after his return from China in late February.


Crankshaft and Connecting Rods

SolidWorks models of the crankshaft and connecting rods have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China are to follow the SolidWorks models.

The machined crankshaft drawing with dimensions and tolerances is shown in the fifth figure. The drawing looks good.

Rolled fillets, balancing, hardening, bearing inserts, and the rear main seal was discussed in the previous update (26 Nov 2019).

The crankshaft factory asked and was granted permission to have the connecting rods forged from steel instead of cast from malleable iron. We agreed as long as there would not be any increase in price. Preliminary drawings of the connecting rod have been marked up and returned to China.


Next Update and Other Comments

There have been no changes that will have an effect on pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts at a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for the rebuild of a stock Model A engine.

Regarding the schedule delay, please be patient and understand that hiccups can happen in any project. We have high standards and insist on quality even if it means a schedule delay.

Our goal is to provide the parts that will allow an engine builder to provide a much better product that looks identical to stock on the exterior.

The next update will be in about 2 months.

Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Laser Scan 1.jpg (103.3 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Laser Scan 2.jpg (108.5 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg File for Pattern 1.jpg (19.9 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg File for Pattern 2.jpg (22.7 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0180-Edit.jpg (466.0 KB, 80 views)
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Old 01-26-2020, 11:13 AM   #88
Ernie Vitucci
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Very encouraging work Terry. Many of us are pulling for you!
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:50 PM   #89
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I see the forged rods as a major plus. Congratulations on all the effort put into this product.
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:09 PM   #90
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

How did China become an economic powerhouse when they shut down factory production for a month for New Year's Day? Oh wait, could it be currency manipulation and other unfair business practices? Terry, what kind of tariffs are you going to have to pay to import the blocks from China?
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:23 AM   #91
Richard in Anaheim CA
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What's the latest update? Any prototype blocks being machined yet ?
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Old 03-11-2020, 07:50 AM   #92
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

How is the Corona virus going to effect your production.
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:45 PM   #93
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

In Terry’s update in January, he wrote:

“It is Chinese New Year right now so factories throughout the country are shut down until mid-February. After the holiday, John will meet with the factory and work with them to have the models from CAM Logic integrated into the design.”

If John went to China in January as planned, I hope he is back and ok.

David Serrano
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Old 03-15-2020, 09:19 PM   #94
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I want to thank everyone that is interested in the new engine parts (Cylinder Block with Caps, Connecting Rods, and Crankshaft). The next update (progress report) will be sent in early April 2020 or shortly thereafter. I want to include photographs of actual hardware in the next update. Below are some of the more interesting questions and comments with replies since the last update in January 2020.


Mr. Burtz

Reference:

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-02.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-06.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-08.jpg

I'm building a nearly exact replica of this 1930s aircraft. I
plan on using your engine block assembly as a basis for my
engine. Every component chosen for long term reliability. I
watch your project's progress with great interest. Very exciting.

I'm modeling the entire aircraft in 3D CAD. I have cylinder head,
oil pan, carburetor, etc to model, but no engine block. It would be
a great help if I had an EXTERNAL CAD model of the engine block as
you will be producing it. I don't need any internal details, just the
external casting with all the external machining processes, so I can
mount the oil pan and cylinder head models. Also the exposed end of
the crankshaft so I can mount the propeller hub model and propeller
model.

I will not share this information with anyone. It is only for my own
design/research purposes.

I can use STP files.

Would you share an external CAD model of your engine block?

Thanks and best regards,
Craig


Craig,

Thanks for your interest in the new engine project.

I don't have a model of the exterior.

I modeled the internal cores and machining from Ford drawing A-6015 using SolidWorks 2004, 13 years ago. For the exterior, drawing A-6015 specifies "All walls & fillets to be 5/32 unless otherwise specified"

The exterior of the original cylinder block was sculpted by the pattern makers at Ford and was dimensionally undocumented.

I cut an original cylinder block into 20 pieces and enlarged those 20 pieces 3-dimensionally to create a pattern. This pattern was used for all efforts at Lodi Iron Works until the project stalled in 2015, and the resulting cylinder blocks looked identical to the original.

For the current effort in China, an original cylinder block was laser scanned to create the exterior model using software that is far beyond SolidWorks 2004. I don't have a model of the exterior, and even if I did, I would not be able to open it.

For what you are doing, I would simply measure an original cylinder block and create a model from that. Our efforts are to create an exact model, whereas your efforts are just to get something close.

Are you planning to attach the propeller to the flywheel mounting flange of the crankshaft? If so, this is a very bad idea because it will continuously overload the forward thrust bearing, and it puts bending and radial loads into the rear main bearing that will cause a fatigue failure.

A much better design would be to support the propeller similar to how the pinion is supported in a Model A differential only larger. That is to have the propeller shaft supported with a pair of back to back tapered roller bearings of at least 5-inch diameter, and have the propeller shaft connected to the flywheel mounting flange with a universal joint and splined shaft coupling. Thrust, bending, and radial loads will be supported by the pair of 5-inch diameter tapered roller bearings instead of the 2-inch crankshaft bearing. Clear as mud?

Terry Burtz



Hi Terry,

I am in the Model A hobby (MARC & MAFCA) and someone recently sent me the description of your project to modernize the Model A engine. I’m probably more biased toward originality, but I am impressed by the level of detail you have gone into with your project.

I’ve been an engineer for about 23 years, including about 11 years at an engine OEM which is a subsidiary of CAT. I did a lot of work with their foundry in Mapleton, IL and sometimes had small run prototype castings made from tooling that was 3D printed on an ExOne sand printer. It could print molds and cores up to the size of an office desk and the quality was very impressive. A couple of years ago, I was thinking of starting a side business reproducing rare antique car parts. I found a few casting houses that will make low production and prototype castings with no hard tooling using this type of 3D sand printer. I seem to remember a couple of houses in Wisconsin. I thought you might be interested in this information.

Russell


Russell,

Thanks for your comments and information. I added your Email address to the update list, so you should receive future updates by Email.

Regarding originality, our goal is to provide a product that looks original on the outside but has more modern technology on the inside.

When I was looking for a foundry in 2008 at the beginning of this project, I found a research foundry at the repurposed McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento, CA that was using one of the mold printing machines.

The machine could print the cope, drag, all cores, sprues, gates, risers, and everything all at once. There was no need for core boxes or patterns, and complex castings with reverse draft were possible. Core shift was impossible. There were 2 problems, 1) Cost would be $2300 per casting, and 2) I did not have a digital model of the exterior of the cylinder block.

Terry Burtz



Dear Terry,

I wrote you earlier concerning the Model A engine project.

As i wrote you before we rebuilding al lot of Ford model A , B And G28T engines and i am very interesting in Offering your new redesigned engines in Europe.

Hopefully we can discuss the opportunities to set up the distribution line direct from China to Europe.

In case of maching the block we have programmed the Ford Model A engine block on our Haas CNC machine.

We are going to several meetings and Markets in Germany,Scandinavie, Holland,Belgium and the UK

On this moment we supply customers with rebuilded engines across Europe.

Hans




Hans,

Thank you for your interest in this project.

We would be happy to work with you and have you be the distributor in Europe.

We need to have a proven product before we release it for sale.

I am replying BCC to Leonard who is a team member that will be responsible for distribution.

Terry Burtz




Hi Terry

I'm Dave, Visalia CA. we talked late last year about your progress on the engine and the possibility of you doing a program at our Central Calif. Regional Workshop in April 10 2020. You wanted me to contact you again after January to give you some time to evaluate your progress on the engine. I can only hope that the Coronavirus in China has not caused your project any serious problems.

Could you let me know as soon as you can since we are beginning to put together the agenda and make arrangements for our Model A Jamboree.


Dave,

Thanks for asking me to make a presentation at the 2020 Regional Workshop at the Jamboree in Visalia.

When I made the previous presentation in Visalia, I used a PowerPoint presentation and was able to display the new cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods from Lodi Iron Works.

The basic design of the new engine has not changed, so there is nothing new regarding design details.

The cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works that I displayed is now in China.

We've had 2 setbacks that have affected the schedule. One is where the engineers in China did not make a lot of progress when they attempted to model the exterior of the cylinder block, and the other is the general slowdown due to the coronavirus.

Modeling of the cylinder block exterior based on laser scanning was completed by CamLogic and given to the engineers in China, and the coronavirus has not completely shut down progress in China.

Our team member, John Lampl has not been able to physically travel to China, however, he sends and receives Emails regularly from China.

I feel honored with your invitation, but need to decline because we won't have new hardware to display.

Terry Burtz



How did China become an economic powerhouse when they shut down factory production for a month for New Year's Day? Oh wait, could it be currency manipulation and other unfair business practices? Terry, what kind of tariffs are you going to have to pay to import the blocks from China?

Unlike America, New Years Day is a huge celebration in China that is long. Look at https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays...pring-festival, and you will see that it is a 23-day event. Tariffs, production cost, tooling cost, transportation cost, storage cost, and other factors have been accounted for. The goal of providing the new engine parts (Cylinder Block with Caps, Connecting Rods, and Crankshaft) at the price of a rebuild (around $3500) has not changed.





What's the latest update? Any prototype blocks being machined yet ?

The latest update will be sent when I have some photographs to show. I expect to have photographs in early April 2020. We don't expect to have hardware for a couple of months. The current effort is tooling production.





How is the Corona virus going to effect your production.

I spoke with John about this, and he feels that it will have a minimal effect compared to manufacturing industries in China that are labor-intensive.





In Terry’s update in January, he wrote:

“It is Chinese New Year right now so factories throughout the country are shut down until mid-February. After the holiday, John will meet with the factory and work with them to have the models from CAM Logic integrated into the design.”

If John went to China in January as planned, I hope he is back and ok.



David

John did not go to China because of the Coronavirus. The model from CAM Logic was sent and the pattern makers are using it. Earlier this week, I received a connecting rod print that I have to dimensionally check. John is in Email contact with the factories in China on a regular basis.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:31 PM   #95
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Everyone - the following update was posted by Terry Burtz yesterday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

26 March 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected], and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing costs and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at www.modelaengine.com

FordBarn, (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782) is an internet social group for Model A Ford hobbyists, and there are a lot of interesting questions and comments regarding this project.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 25 January 2020.


Cylinder Block and Main Caps

CAM Logic Inc completed its work to digitally model the exterior of the cylinder block based on the laser scan.

John had planned to travel to China to present the CAM Logic Inc exterior model in mid-February but was unable to due to the Coronavirus outbreak. However, in the interim, John has been working with the factory in China remotely to move the project forward.

The data file from CAM Logic Inc was sent to China and is being used to make the exterior pattern.

We also asked CAM Logic to confirm that all wall thicknesses were 5/32 inch or greater per Ford drawing A-6015, and they found that when the SolidWorks core models were combined with their exterior model, the wall at the front of the valve chamber was found to be thin.

This was corrected by making the valve chamber core slightly smaller to add wall thickness, and this file was also sent to China.

The machined surfaces drawing made from my SolidWorks file is close to being acceptable. One more iteration is needed because their fore and aft tooling holes on the bottom of the cylinder block need to be moved inward.

Cylinder block foundry tooling is nearing completion. The factory in China has provided a schedule projecting completion on 18 April 2020.

All tooling (core boxes, and the cope and drag patterns) is being CNC machined to the SolidWorks core and exterior models that have been provided by us. Everything that is external to the cylinder block casting including sprues, core-prints, gates, runners, and vents were designed by the factory in China.

The factory in China is in the business of making cylinder blocks in volume, so the tooling has been designed for use on their automated tooling line that can mass-produce cores and molds that are precise and consistent.

The 15 attached figures show what some of the tooling will look like. The first two figures show cope and drag patterns that are ready for automated molding, and the other figures show various stages of tooling completion. All tooling will be machined from aluminum.

It is my belief that the only "hands-on" operations will be core setting, mold closure, and pouring.

Once a good casting is poured, it needs to be verified through a series of comparisons, measurements, and tests including:
  • Compare the casting exterior against an original cylinder block. Superimposing laser scans of the new and original cylinder blocks would be ideal.
  • Compare roughness and texture of surfaces.
  • Pressurize the water jacket with air while the cylinder block is submerged in water to check for porosity.
  • Cut a casting apart into many pieces to verify all wall thickness and that there is no porosity.

We cannot dictate the process for verification; however, we can ask questions like: "How are you going to verify that the exterior is identical to original? How are you going to verify that there is no porosity?, and How are you going to verify wall thickness?"

John is in contact with the factories in China about two times every week, and I talk with or Email John every few days. Unfortunately, because of the Coronavirus, John will not be able to travel to China and witness the verification process.

The Coronavirus, along with the engineers not initially using the laser scan, has slightly slowed progress in China. If foundry tooling is complete by 18 April 2020 and they produce a good casting on the first try, it is possible that a machined casting may be available in May 2020, assuming that there are no CNC errors.


Crankshaft and Connecting Rods

SolidWorks models of the crankshaft and connecting rods have been provided, and the instructions to the factory in China are to follow the SolidWorks models.

The machined crankshaft drawing with dimensions and tolerances looks good.

Rolled fillets, balancing, hardening, bearing inserts, and the rear main seal was discussed in a previous update (26 November 2019).

The crankshaft factory asked and was granted permission to have the connecting rods forged from steel instead of being cast from malleable iron. We agreed as long as there would not be any increase in price. Preliminary drawings of the connecting rod have been marked up and returned to China.


Next Update and Other Comments

There have been no changes that will affect pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts at a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for the rebuild of a stock Model A engine.

Before authorizing production, we have asked for three sets of hardware that we can inspect and evaluate by building running engines. Although John cannot fly to China to meet with his contacts at the factory, freight is still actively moving.

In preparation for the next update (end of April 2020?), we have asked for photographs that show the finished foundry tooling and the first casting.

Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg March 1.JPG (44.3 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg March 2.JPG (43.6 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg March 3.JPG (84.1 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg March 4.jpg (52.0 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg March 5.jpg (51.2 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg March 6.jpg (66.4 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg March 7.jpg (47.2 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg March 8.jpg (37.6 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg March 9.jpg (46.2 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg March 10.jpg (44.5 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg March 11.jpg (56.3 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg March 12.jpg (26.5 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg March 13.jpg (32.2 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg March 14.jpg (36.7 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg March 15.jpg (29.9 KB, 69 views)

Last edited by wrpercival; 03-28-2020 at 08:25 AM. Reason: upload additional images
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Old 05-25-2020, 06:26 PM   #96
wrpercival
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Posts: 16
Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I recently received the following email update on the engine project from Terry Burtz.

There are several videos that were included in his email that cannot be uploaded to this site. As an alternative, I have posted Dropbox links to the referenced videos at the end of the update.
---------------------------------

Hello to All,

21 May 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com. If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at [email protected] and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at www.modelaengine.com

FordBarn, (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782) is an internet social group for Model A Ford hobbyists and there are a lot of interesting questions and comments regarding this project.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 26 March 2020.



Cylinder Block and Main Caps


Due to Covid19, John was unable to travel to China and present the exterior model of the cylinder block that was completed by CAM logic from a laser scan. This was resolved by sending the data over the internet.

The foundry tooling (patterns and core boxes) have been delivered to the casting and machining factory.

3 cylinder blocks have been cast. The first had a miss-run problem but was useful to confirm feature location and wall thickness. The second and third cylinder block castings appear good and are shown in the following figures.

For quality control purposes, every cylinder block that passes final inspection will have a unique hidden serial number in the location shown in the attachments.

John is in contact with the factories in China about 2 times every week, and I talk with or Email John every few days.


Crankshaft

Crankshafts for engineering evaluation have been cast, rough-machined, and they are having their journals hardened in preparation for grinding.

The video attachments show the rough machining prior to heat treat.

Rolled fillets, balancing, hardening, bearing inserts, and the rear main seal was discussed in a previous update (26 Nov 2019).


Connecting Rods

In the attachments, there is a picture of big end forgings and a short video that shows the partially machined cap. The video is short, so don't blink while watching.


Design Verification

We have been in contact with an engine rebuilder and parts supplier that has agreed to help verify the design by assembling a short block with parts that we supply, and then assemble a complete engine with mostly used parts that he supplies.

We are planning to have the new engine parts air-shipped from China to an airport near his business and we are excited to see what arrives. This will be our first opportunity to visually see the new engine parts.

The new engine parts will be cosmetically compared to original parts, and dimensionally measured to confirm that all interfaces are a match to Ford drawings for attaching parts. Any discrepancies found will be documented so they can be corrected before the production run.

After assembly of the new engine, it will be run on a test stand at a high RPM for a length of time, and then installed in a car that will be driven in hill climbs at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Next, the engine will be plumbed to utilize an oil filter and again run on the test stand. After all testing, the engine will be disassembled and all moving parts will be inspected for wear. If we agree that the design is valid, we will authorize production.


Next Update and Other Comments

There have been no changes that will have an effect on pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts at a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for the rebuild of a stock Model A engine.

We expect to have engineering evaluation parts delivered by July 5, 2020.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.


Dropbox links to the video files:

Connecting Rod Machining.mp4

MACHINING OF CRANKSHAFT 1.mp4

MACHINING OF CRANKSHAFT 2.mp4
Attached Images
File Type: jpg May 1.jpg (41.8 KB, 130 views)
File Type: jpg May 2.jpg (60.4 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg Con Rod Forging.jpg (14.0 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg thumbnail_Serial No Location.jpg (64.2 KB, 80 views)
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:59 PM   #97
40 Deluxe
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
I want to thank everyone that is interested in the new engine parts (Cylinder Block with Caps, Connecting Rods, and Crankshaft). The next update (progress report) will be sent in early April 2020 or shortly thereafter. I want to include photographs of actual hardware in the next update. Below are some of the more interesting questions and comments with replies since the last update in January 2020.


Mr. Burtz

Reference:

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-02.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-06.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-08.jpg

I'm building a nearly exact replica of this 1930s aircraft. I
plan on using your engine block assembly as a basis for my
engine. Every component chosen for long term reliability. I
watch your project's progress with great interest. Very exciting.

I'm modeling the entire aircraft in 3D CAD. I have cylinder head,
oil pan, carburetor, etc to model, but no engine block. It would be
a great help if I had an EXTERNAL CAD model of the engine block as
you will be producing it. I don't need any internal details, just the
external casting with all the external machining processes, so I can
mount the oil pan and cylinder head models. Also the exposed end of
the crankshaft so I can mount the propeller hub model and propeller
model.

I will not share this information with anyone. It is only for my own
design/research purposes.

I can use STP files.

Would you share an external CAD model of your engine block?

Thanks and best regards,
Craig


Craig,

Thanks for your interest in the new engine project.

I don't have a model of the exterior.

I modeled the internal cores and machining from Ford drawing A-6015 using SolidWorks 2004, 13 years ago. For the exterior, drawing A-6015 specifies "All walls & fillets to be 5/32 unless otherwise specified"

The exterior of the original cylinder block was sculpted by the pattern makers at Ford and was dimensionally undocumented.

I cut an original cylinder block into 20 pieces and enlarged those 20 pieces 3-dimensionally to create a pattern. This pattern was used for all efforts at Lodi Iron Works until the project stalled in 2015, and the resulting cylinder blocks looked identical to the original.

For the current effort in China, an original cylinder block was laser scanned to create the exterior model using software that is far beyond SolidWorks 2004. I don't have a model of the exterior, and even if I did, I would not be able to open it.

For what you are doing, I would simply measure an original cylinder block and create a model from that. Our efforts are to create an exact model, whereas your efforts are just to get something close.

Are you planning to attach the propeller to the flywheel mounting flange of the crankshaft? If so, this is a very bad idea because it will continuously overload the forward thrust bearing, and it puts bending and radial loads into the rear main bearing that will cause a fatigue failure.

A much better design would be to support the propeller similar to how the pinion is supported in a Model A differential only larger. That is to have the propeller shaft supported with a pair of back to back tapered roller bearings of at least 5-inch diameter, and have the propeller shaft connected to the flywheel mounting flange with a universal joint and splined shaft coupling. Thrust, bending, and radial loads will be supported by the pair of 5-inch diameter tapered roller bearings instead of the 2-inch crankshaft bearing. Clear as mud?

Terry Burtz

Terry,
Interesting comments on attaching the prop directly to the crankshaft! Some years ago I ran across an article from the 1930's that quoted Mr. Pietenpol as saying it was fine to mount the prop directly to the crank as the stock Model A thrust was strong enough to handle the load! And, since this was in the depression years he suggested getting an engine from a junkyard. (Maybe he wanted to keep the price down so he could sell more plans?) In addition, somebody posted drawings (from a different source, same era) here on Fordbarn of a special bellhousing with tapered roller thrust bearings and a short shaft with square cut keys connecting to the crankshaft hub. Also included was a drawing for drilling the crankshaft for pressure oiling to the rods.

I wonder what the expected crankshaft life was in either case!
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:07 PM   #98
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

40 Delux

Pietenpol's were all homebuilt and likely used a 2 blade homemade propeller. What is scary is that one blade likely grabbed more air than the other blade which resulted in high bending loads on the 1.625-inch diameter main bearing.

Early Funk airplanes used a dry-sump inverted Model B Ford engine and these airplanes were factory-built and benefited from the larger 2-inch main bearing. The propellers on Funks likely had less miss-match between the 2 blades.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:40 PM   #99
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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40 Delux

Pietenpol's were all homebuilt and likely used a 2 blade homemade propeller. What is scary is that one blade likely grabbed more air than the other blade which resulted in high bending loads on the 1.625-inch diameter main bearing.

Early Funk airplanes used a dry-sump inverted Model B Ford engine and these airplanes were factory-built and benefited from the larger 2-inch main bearing. The propellers on Funks likely had less miss-match between the 2 blades.

Thanks, Terry. The question remains, however: How long did the original thrust surface last, what with having to pull the airplane through the sky?
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:42 PM   #100
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to those questioning Chinas ability............


complete BMW motorcycles have been made there for some time for the Germans


I am sure they have no interest in throwing their high quality business model away.


the chinese can make poor quality or great quality- all depends what you want to pay.
I just read recently where Scat crankshafts are made in China then shipped to Redondo Beach, Calif. for machining and sales. Scat cranks are pretty top of the line, good units.
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Old 05-30-2020, 01:52 AM   #101
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If I recall correctly, when I spoke with Tom, the owner of Scat some years ago, the forgings were made in India and shipped to California for machining. The forging is generic and can be machined to become a Chevy crankshaft, Model A crankshaft, or Model B crankshaft. There is not enough material on the forging to accommodate the Model B connecting rod diameter, so Model B crankshafts have Model A (1.50-inch diameter) connecting rod journals.
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:49 AM   #102
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a dry-sump inverted Model B Ford engine
I can see where a designed inverted engine like for the Bf-109 would handle the oil in the crankcase, but what they did to convert the B engine would be very interesting.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:04 PM   #103
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Many people respond to my Email account with comments, questions, and concerns. Posted below are some of those Emails that have been sanitized to remove Email addresses and last names.

Hello Terry
Very interested in your project and great to hear it is back on track in light of the covid situation. Being that I have a oilfield manufacturing plant in China I have a little experience with the current situation. I would certainly be interested in purchasing the block, crank, main caps and rods once you are in production. It certainly appears that you have done your due diligence in sourcing a suitable company for producing the castings, forgings and machining in china. As I am sure you have seen there are companies there that claim to follow certain quality control procedures and other that actually do perform them. Having lived there for a few years when I set up my plant I gained, what I feel is some good insight on how the production and engineering people think and work.
I will follow your project online and look forward to seeing your updates on this project, and hopefully of seeing it being commercially ready in the near distance future.
Bob

Bob, The factories that we are using in China are state of the art and produce engines for American, European, Japanese, along with their own automobiles. The improved Model A engine was something new to them because "L" head engines haven't been made in the last 60 years. The factories in China are ISO certified and when the dimensions on the Ford drawings were converted to metric on their drawings, all metric dimensions have a smaller tolerance range. Modern engines run at a higher RPM and balancing needs to be more precise than a lower RPM engine like a Model A. The factories will balance to modern standards which is a bonus.





I don't think I could put a motor partly built in china in my Model A. I enjoy reading your article's. Charles

Charles, Thanks for your comment. The world has changed and is now a global economy. I live in Silicon Valley which is just south of San Francisco. In WW2, we had many shipyards, foundries, huge machine shops and everything else to support the war effort. Today that is all gone. We import steel from China for projects like the new bridge between San Francisco and Oakland, skyscrapers, the new transit center in San Francisco, and almost every big project. I don't think that you can rebuild a Model A engine using parts from suppliers that don't come from China.





Terry:
Thanks so much for this exciting update! I have been following this project since its early days and really look forward to seein one of these on a dyno.
Be and do well
Dana

For dyno runs with various combinations of speed equipment, see Piranios https://www.modelaparts.net/
Dyno tests are short in duration. Our target market is for people that want an engine that will run for a length of time at high RPM. Our plan for testing includes running at high RPM on a test stand for a length of time and then installing the engine in a car to do hill climbs. With 5 main bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and 2 inch diameter rod and main bearings, I would guess that the new Model A engine would perform similar to any of Piranios results with a much longer life.

Dear Terry:
Agreed, the Dyno is a short test. However it is used to learn about horsepower. Longevity is certainly what most people will be looking for in this engine. However horsepower is still an interesting metric to have in your pocket, just for comparison sake.
When I was in the AF, I had a 31 Coupe that was in such bad shape I had to get down to 1st gear coming home to Vandenberg AFB from Santa Maria (I don’t know the hill statistics, but the last one was a pretty good grade). I finally did the engine and was shocked at my ability to zip up that hill in third gear with ease. I realize that doesn’t compare to this situation but it does illustrate the value of a few extra ponies. I Believe the OEM horsepower on that engine was something like about 50Hp. That was such a fun car for a young GI.
You mention hill climbs. Clearly you are well studied in this area, how ever for those who have only a passing acquaintance with the is little machine, the Model A break system is mechanical, even in top shape this is not a car to go zipping up or down hills without some awareness of its limitations. This is, by the way, why (again for those following who aren’t aware) one sees so many Model As rolling around on Model B rims. At some point someone has upgraded to “juice” brakes and they wouldn’t fit behind the Model A drums.
All that said, this is a tremendously fun little machine to own.
Once again, best of luck. This is an exciting little project to watch.

Dana, Thanks again for your comments. We want an engine built like the majority of rebuilt engines. The engine builder that we will be working with has a used high compression head that looks stock that we will be using. He also has a coupe that is capable of hill climbing. As an independent evaluator, we will have him do the testing including hill climbing as we take pictures and videos. With 5 main bearings, larger diameter main and rod bearings, and zero fatigue cycles on all parts, the bottom end should not fly apart at high RPM. First and second gear will be used for braking in decents.





Fabulous! I have the funds set aside for an engine........Andy

Andy, thanks for your comment. Our goal is to provide the new engine parts at a cost that is comparable with the cost of a rebuilt stock engine.





very interested in your project. If you have a list of potential customers that would purchase a complete motor for installation and testing put me on the list!. I have an original 29 roadster that is destined for racing events. John

John, We have no list yet and are not supplying a complete engine. We are only supplying a new 5 main cylinder block, a 5 main crankshaft, and connecting rods. You get to choose pistons, valve train, camshaft, and timing gears.






I am about to build a Model A engine using a Skat counterbalanced crankshaft and all insert bearings. After seeing this proposed "new" engine I think maybe the cost of the "new" engine might be comparable and the new engine would be much better. I will be interested in watching progress and cost. Ronald

Ronald, The proposed "new" engine is almost reality. If the schedule doesn't change, parts, assembly, and testing will be completed in July 2020. We are well aware that cost is an important factor.






Thanks for doing this it is much needed and appreciated by fellow Model A enthusiasts. I hope it keeps moving forward. Sam

Sam, Thanks






Hi
Very interested in one of these blocks, cranks and rods. I was about to have to have my original block machined and fit a new crank and rods so replacing the lot would be an exellent way to go. Good luck with this and please keep me updated.
Thanks Rod


Rod, Thanks for considering the new engine.






Thank you for taking on this massive project. As the availability of rebuildable blocks becomes scarce, it is comforting to know that your efforts will allow this hobby and the preservation of history to go on for many years to come.
Keep up the "steam" and continue to forge ahead with this project. Paul

Paul, Thanks




Hi Terry, I am very interested in this project! I am a 45 year member of MAFCA in Beamsville Ontario Canada. I operated a Babbitt in hand and engine rebuild business for 32 years on a part time basis, while full time teaching millwright at Mohawk College. My son Theo now runs the engine business full time, “ Around the block engines”
Please keep me posted on your progress.
Thanks, Ted

Ted, The next update will include the results of assembly and testing and any problems.








TERRY...
Looks like you have 13 years out of your life on this project. As they say, "Keep the Faith, Baby!" I read your progress reports with great interest and admiration for the professionalism and certainly hope the effort will be repaid with many orders for your new Model A engines. I'd like to buy one, and I don't even need it. Rich

Rich, Since you don't need it, you could use it as a display piece in your man-cave, and if you need to get rid of it, someone would be happy to buy.







Hi Terry,
Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it?
Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus. Thanks, Kerry

Kerry,
The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block.
Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block.





Excellent progress ,The patterns and coreboxes are looking good, just like my days at Chrysler Australia. Well Done you two!!! Warwick

Thanks for the compliment. We are using factories that are automated and specialize in the manufacture of engines. I assume that you worked at the factory in Lonsdale that closed in 1980.

Thanks Terry, You are spot on .Yes I worked at Lonsdale, 1st as metal patternmaker in the grey iron foundry, then in the alloy foundry as a quality analyst.By this time Chrysler had sold the plant to Mitsubishi. I retired in 2000 just before it closed. With 20years around casting I know how much work is involved in all the aspects of the process. I am following your progress because I am a Model A enthusiast and look forward to fitting one of your engines.
Good Luck with your progress,All The Best ..Warwick






Thanks for the update Terry!!
With everything going on in the world I thought thing would be set things back until the end of the year. This is great news!! Looking forward to the next update. Hope all is well with you and your family.
Stay well and thanks for all your hard work. The turtle always end up winning the race. Slow but steady.
Take care. Steve

Steve, When Covid19 hit, my thoughts were the same. I'm amazed and happy that Covid19 had little impact on this project. The team (John, Leonard, Bill, and I) along with our families are all well.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:51 AM   #104
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Terry, like many others, my mouth is watering with anticipation of getting my hands on one of your "A" assemblies. I can sense an anticipation of the opportunity to purchase one, but fear the demand be so high that availability could be significantly long. We all want to beat each other to the punch so to speak. Do you have a plan formed for how priority takes place? Will volume meet demand any time soon?
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:46 PM   #105
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Terry's new engine configuration will fill the 'gap' by the loss of guys like Herm Kohnke who's talents sadly are getting quite difficult to replicate.

Properly rebuilding a '90 year old engine' from a Model A Ford isn't w/o a lot of cost and even then you may be part way thru the build and discover you have a bad block and have to start all over. And finally when you are done, you have a freshened up, 90 year old.............. block/engine.

Thank you from all Model A Ford enthusiasts on this venture that you have been working so hard at This is THE best thread on FB
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:35 AM   #106
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Russ/40
If appearance, dimensional checks, assembly, and testing go well, we will authorize production and get on their production schedule.
We will publish the results of the evaluation along with many pictures so that readers can study the results and make an informed decision before placing an order.
Once production starts, it will go fast.
The factories that we are using make OEM parts, so they understand production.
Once production begins, we will publish pricing and ordering instructions here on FordBarn, the Email list, and to local clubs belonging to MARC and MAFCA.
Leonard, one of our team members will be handling distribution.


Jeff/Illinois
Thanks for the compliment.
Engine rebuilding machinery index on previously machined surfaces.
One of the big challenges with rebuilding a 90-year-old block is that the machined surfaces used to index from may have been mss-machined in the past.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:02 PM   #107
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, this awesome work you are doing. Thanks for not giving up! Looking forward to getting one. Ted
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:00 PM   #108
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Pasted below are a few additional comments received.



I appreciate your dedication to this project, Terry, under rather extreme circumstances. I’m in Southern Ontario, Canada, and am patiently awaiting the end of this Covid 19 threat. Cheers! Al

Al, Thanks for the complement. I'm glad that Covid19 had a minimal impact on progress.





Terry
this has been fascinating following the progress and setbacks throughout the entire process. Thank you for sticking with it. You are a very determined man. I look forward to the day when I can run one of these.
Pat

Pat, It's been a long journey and I look forward to the end.







Dear Terry ,
Thank you very much for your update.
A view questions.

1. Will the machining off the engine Block be done in China or the US ??
2. We have a full programm ready for a Haas CNC machine to machine the engine Blocks .Only line boring willl be done by conventional machining.
3. It looks like the botthem of the engine (connection tot he oilpan is to thin for machining)
4. How many material is added for machining
5. We have experience with 3d engineeering , casting and machining of engine blocks let me know if it is possible to send us an casted block for inspection.
6. Is it possible to do the same here with assembling and testing we have the experience

Will send you videoo of engines we have done .
Prepared to help to improve the project with experience and quality machining.
Friendly regards,
Hans


Hans,
1) Machining will be done in China.
2) China will provide a cylinder block that is line bored and ready for assembly. They will also supply the fully machined crankshaft and connecting rods.
3) The bottom of the raw casting has .10 inch of material that needs to be removed during machining.
4) All machined surfaces have an extra .10 inch that is removed during machining.
5) We have not requested un-machined castings. Machining a raw casting would require several unique fixtures.
6) For a second evaluation of the design, we would be happy for you to do the assembly and testing of an engine.


Dear Terry,
Thank you for answering me .
The fixtures are available no problem.
We would love to get started with the new castings and testing and distribute the engines Europe wide.
I Think the best way would be shipping the engines directly to Europe to avoid extra shipping costs and custom charges.
I am open to for support and suggestions from your side.
Friendly regards,
Hans


Hans,
I am the engineer on this project.
Before production, we need to evaluate the new engine parts. The May 2020 update addressed what we are planning to do for "Design Verification" before we authorize production.
Un-machined castings and forgings will not be available.
All parts will be machined in China in factories that specialize in making cylinder blocks, crankshafts, and connecting rods. Part of the final inspection process for the cylinder block will be to pressurize the water jacket to make sure that it has no porosity after machining.
The only machining that may be needed to the parts that we are supplying is to ensure that the piston to wall clearance is adequate. Original pistons were split skirt and clearance could be .002 inch. If you are using solid skirt pistons, the clearance should be .004 inch.
John Lampl, another team member, is responsible for manufacturing, quality control, and transportation.
John and I talked about you becoming our distributor in Europe and how the parts would be shipped directly to you to avoid paying customs and other fees twice.
I have cc'd John in this Email.


Dear Terry,
Thank you very much fort his clear info!!
We will wait patiently.
Friendly regards, Hans








I am interested in the progress and testing of the engine with the possibility of purchasing one in the future depending on test results, compatibility with vintage Ford external components, and cost. This is an exciting idea and I hope it succeeds. I am skeptical given the quality and fit of many reproduction parts which that we encounter these days. Given the attention to detail and length of time that is detailed on the website, I hope this is a success. Jeff

Jeff,
Thanks for your comments. I am a manufacturer of Model A parts that pass judging at MARC and MAFCA events. Don't be skeptical. If the parts from China don't meet our requirements, they will not be offered for sale.







Hey Terry,
Wow, exciting indeed , after all these years!!
How do I go about getting on your list to purchase one or more of your engines ?
Thanks for your perseverance in your/our dream.
Rick

Rick,
The last time that we spoke was at the MARC convention in San Diego in 2011.
Before we sell any parts, they need to pass a visual inspection, a mechanical inspection to ensure that all interfaces meet the tolerances on Ford drawings, run-in testing at high RPM, and hill climbing. We are planning to offer a discount to parts dealers, machine shops, and others who purchase 5 or more at a time. Once testing is complete and authorization for the production run is given, I will post the Email address where people can order parts.





Hi
I have wrote this before. In the Great USA there must be a foundry that could use the business ,and not send it to China ! I am a Canadian and I want the money to go to America’s
Stephen


Stephen, I spent 8 years (2007 to 2015) and several thousands of dollars attempting to have these engine parts manufactured in California. I also contacted numerous foundries in the mid-west and none were interested in a casting with multiple cores. None of the foundries that I worked with and contacted had the machine shop capabilities to provide a ready to assemble cylinder block. The factory in China making the cylinder block has pattern makers, a foundry, machine shop, and will deliver a cylinder block that is ready for assembly. The factory in China only makes cylinder blocks. They don't make brake rotors, exhaust manifolds, fire hydrants, frying pans, or manhole covers.





Thanks for your continuous updates! Congratulations for a very professional and useful quest. It will be much appreciated and widely heralded in the Model A Community., Rich

Rich, Thanks for your comments.






The New model a engine, will it be babbit or press in bearings. Lloyd

The new engine will have pressed in bushings for the camshaft, and inserts for the main and connecting rod bearings.
The inserts are part number CB745P and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors.
Check out Ebayhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Rod-Bearing-Set-Fits-87-03-Buick-Chevrolet-Beretta-Cavalier-2-0L-L4-OHV-8v/281494310467 and click on "See Compatible Vehicles" to view a partial list of cars and trucks that used this insert.





Hi Terry,
Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it?
Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus.
Thanks, Kerry


Kerry,
The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block.
Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block.







Terry:
Thanks for the update and the tooling photos. This has been a long journey for you, but a vacation of hope for the rest of us.
Thanks again, Kem


Kem,
It is good to hear from you.
I miss the days when you and I traveled to see Carl.







Terry,
Is the boss for the engine's serial number located correctly? Not sure by looking at the pictures. JM

Jim,
The serial number boss is in the correct position.
In the pictures, everything above the boss is sand cores that will support cores and provide venting.
The casting will have no iron above the serial number boss.
Compare the size and location of the serial number boss to the water inlet and things will look better.







I am sure Louie would really enjoy receiving your updates but he passed away 2 years ago on March 24, 2018. He always looked forward to your emails.

JoAnn,
Thanks for your Email.
I'm so sorry to hear about the passing of Louie in 2018 when this project was stalled.
Hopefully, he can look down and see it has been revived.
Our chapter (SCVC) of MAFCA has several members (both men and women) that have lost spouses, however, they remain active members and enjoy the camaraderie. I hope that you are in a similar situation.






Terry
Why the need for model A engines ? they are dime a dozen !
Carl

Carl,
Thank you for your comment.
You are on my Hotmail contact list because of your request.
You are very fortunate that you can buy Model A engines for less than a penny each.
You could make money by selling them to rebuilders that are looking for re-buildable cylinder blocks.
Please reply if you would like me to remove you from my Hotmail contacts list.
My free Hotmail account only allows me to send 300 updates to contacts in a 24 hour period, and I would like to thin the contact list.
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Old 06-07-2020, 08:32 PM   #109
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Carl, in my opinion and it doesn't account for much Model A blocks being a 'dime-a-dozen', well maybe and maybe not if you want a good one. As time goes by the good ones will get harder to find.

As a comparison, one thing for sure in the Ford Flathead world, good Flathead blocks are even harder to locate. As my dad told me in my youth (and he was a Ford man who owned many Flathead Fords new and used) 'There are two kinds of Flatheads. Those that have a cracked block and those that are GOING to have a cracked block.'

Model A's engines are easier to deal with than Flatheads and Terry's new block will continue this hobby for generations to come. They will make it a better hobby than what it is already, and for you guys that like to push a Model A to the limit you blow an engine huh so what let's build another one
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Old 06-07-2020, 09:50 PM   #110
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Carl, in my opinion and it doesn't account for much

Model A's engines are easier to deal with than Flatheads and Terry's new block will continue this hobby for generations to come. They will make it a better hobby than what it is already, and for you guys that like to push a Model A to the limit you blow an engine huh so what let's build another one
It may not be just that easy, at this point Vintage racing requires an authentic block. This block is not going to pass tech shed.

On issue that Donovan ran into was this, that is a hell for stout motor but cannot be used in competition.

I guess you could make application for a production status after a few thousand are made and sold maybe.

I hope this project is successful, John
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:34 AM   #111
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I note that Terry has gotten several questions along the lines of "Why give this business to China?" I think this quote from Apple CEO Tim Cook in 2017 shows exactly why:
Quote:
The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I'm not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location, and the type of skill it is. The products we do require really advanced tooling...and the tooling skill is very deep [in China]. In the U.S. you could have a meeting of tooling engineers, and I'm not sure we could fill the room. In China you could fill multiple football fields.
You can read more about the difficulty of re-creating the US's manufacturing capacity here.
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Old 06-10-2020, 08:41 AM   #112
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Anyone have a guesstimate as to what the cost would be to the average Joe to purchase one of these blocks ready to assemble?
Also, what would the horsepower increase be?
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:27 AM   #113
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Quote:
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Russ/40
If appearance, dimensional checks, assembly, and testing go well, we will authorize production and get on their production schedule.
We will publish the results of the evaluation along with many pictures so that readers can study the results and make an informed decision before placing an order.
Once production starts, it will go fast.
The factories that we are using make OEM parts, so they understand production.
Once production begins, we will publish pricing and ordering instructions here on FordBarn, the Email list, and to local clubs belonging to MARC and MAFCA.
Leonard, one of our team members will be handling distribution.


Jeff/Illinois
Thanks for the compliment.
Engine rebuilding machinery index on previously machined surfaces.
One of the big challenges with rebuilding a 90-year-old block is that the machined surfaces used to index from may have been mss-machined in the past.
I would like to voltmeter to be a Beta tester on these new blocks/engines once production begins.
As I use my Model A as a "daily driver", logging 3-5K or more miles per year, and I am "not" an engineer I could provide a "real World" "average Joe" evaluation of performance, maintenance. and pros and cons of this new block to your main target consumer...the "average Joe"
This is a very thought provoking tread.

Grandpa always said..."You'll never know unless you ask"
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Old 06-11-2020, 01:17 AM   #114
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It may not be just that easy, at this point Vintage racing requires an authentic block. This block is not going to pass tech shed.
On issue that Donovan ran into was this, that is a hell for stout motor but cannot be used in competition.
I guess you could make application for a production status after a few thousand are made and sold maybe.
I hope this project is successful, John

John,
Thanks for your comments and words of encouragement.
The new engine is not intended for vintage racing, and nobody should cheat!!
The exterior of the new engine is identical to stock, so some disassembly is needed to confirm that the new engine isn't old. The easiest way to determine that it is not original would be to remove the oil filler tube and see if there is a web for a main bearing. If someone wants to cheat and new iron is needed to replace an original cylinder block, intermediate main bearing #2 could be removed from the new cylinder block. If 5 mains are wanted, a girdle could be fabricated to replace the missing main bearing. This would allow the new 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights and large bearings along with new connecting rods to be used. The next easiest way to determine that the new cylinder block is not original would be to remove the A-6017 Timing Gear Cover to see if there is a serial number and an oil passage plug that is not original.
What is the definition of an "authentic" block? Do the German G28T engines that were built as late as 1958 with full oil pressure and insert bearings qualify for vintage competition?
Regarding Donovan engines, I agree that they were stout, but they didn't look like a Model A engine when you got close, and many interfaces for attaching parts were different than stock Model A.



I note that Terry has gotten several questions along the lines of "Why give this business to China?" I think this quote from Apple CEO Tim Cook in 2017 shows exactly why:
Quote:
The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I'm not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location, and the type of skill it is. The products we do require really advanced tooling...and the tooling skill is very deep [in China]. In the U.S. you could have a meeting of tooling engineers, and I'm not sure we could fill the room. In China you could fill multiple football fields.
You can read more about the difficulty of re-creating the US's manufacturing capacity here. alexiskia


Alexiskia,
Thanks for the quote from Tom Cook. He is absolutely correct. I tried to have the "new engine" manufactured in the USA for several years. All of the foundries that I worked with have no quality assurance when it comes to making and assembling cores, and they refuse to follow a procedure.


Anyone have a guesstimate as to what the cost would be to the average Joe to purchase one of these blocks ready to assemble?
Also, what would the horsepower increase be? Keith

Keith,
Even with the uncertainties regarding transportation, customs, and tariffs, the retail price will be close to the cost of a quality rebuild assuming that you have good parts for the rebuild which means that no valve seats, cylinder sleeves, Helicoils, or crack repair is needed. If you have $3 to $4 K to spend, you are fine.
The "new engine" is designed for reliability with a stiffer crankshaft having 8 counterweights and is supported with five 2 inch diameter main bearings, connecting rod journals that are 2 inch diameter instead of 1 1/2 inch, and many more improvements.
Horsepower depends on what add-on parts you choose to use. If you use all stock parts, HP will be 40. At the other extreme, if you choose to use a DOHC HAL head with dual Winfield D carburetors, or something similar, HP will be closer to 200.




I would like to voltmeter to be a Beta tester on these new blocks/engines once production begins.
As I use my Model A as a "daily driver", logging 3-5K or more miles per year, and I am "not" an engineer I could provide a "real World" "average Joe" evaluation of performance, maintenance. and pros and cons of this new block to your main target consumer...the "average Joe"
This is a very thought provoking tread. Keith

Keith, Thanks for your offer to voltmeter to be a Beta tester. This is either a new test to me, or something is wrong with spell check. If you have big fingers like me, I understand the problem.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:17 AM   #115
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"Voltmeter"? What the heck?
Since given the option of the problem, I would like to choose cause A, spell check (final answer)
Because it can't be my fat fingers or the fact that I'm getting old...could it?

Thank you for the response, the cost is well within most budgets but expected a HP increase using stock parts. but the 200 HP possibility blows my mind.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:36 AM   #116
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burner31 View Post
"Voltmeter"? What the heck?
Since given the option of the problem, I would like to choose cause A, spell check (final answer)
Because it can't be my fat fingers or the fact that I'm getting old...could it?

Thank you for the response, the cost is well within most budgets but expected a HP increase using stock parts. but the 200 HP possibility blows my mind.
Burner31,

yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes.

You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!!
This about 270 when dyno broke.

John
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:40 PM   #117
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

More comments, questions, and concerns.


Burner31,
yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes.
You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!!
This about 270 when dyno broke. John


John, Thanks for your reply. From your attached picture, I'm impressed that you were able to obtain 270 HP using a stock cylinder block in tension. If you were to cut a cylinder block in half horizontally through the valve chamber and cylinders, there is not very much area to accommodate tension loading. With that much HP, have you considered using exterior stay rods on both sides of the cylinder block that would be in tension and externally connect the head to the girdle to put the cylinder block in compression? Ask Google "Is cast iron stronger in compression or tension?"






Will complete engines be available? Leonard

Leonard, No, we are not in the engine building business. The only parts that we will provide are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods that are ready for assembly. You or your engine assembler can choose new or used stock or higher performance parts like pistons, camshaft, valve train, timing gears, head, oil pump, and everything else needed to make a complete engine that will perform and stay within your budget.






Hi Terry,
I know you folks are working hard to bring the dream into reality. As we get closer to production and a customer a build, I need to start ordering parts to assemble the new engine. I will not use any used parts except for the oil pan. If you made an engine parts list to complete your test engine, would you mind sharing?
One additional thought. I normally use gas that has no alcohol when possible. On extended trips mostly a 10% mixture is found. I put in hardened valve seats and modern valves so I can use either. Will I need to do this on the new block as well?
Thanks, Kerry

Kerry, Thanks for having faith in what we are doing.
I don't have a list of parts, but we are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Everything else can be stock Ford or aftermarket if it has stock interfaces.
The new cylinder block has hard seats in the 4 exhaust ports. They are MAHLE part number 218-7535, and available in 2 over-sizes if ever needed.

Thanks Terry for specifying harden seats. New valves and we are good to go. No one could have done this except you. Thank you and your team for your dedication and tenacity. Kerry




Thanks for your efforts to get a “new Engine” for the Model A. If you still have an update list I would like to be added to it.
Thanks Frank

Frank, your Email address had been added to the update list.





HELLO,I OWN A 30 FORD BOATAILED SPEEDSTER SPECIAL, LOOKING FOR A MORE PERIOD CORRECT ENGINE. WHAT PRICE RANGE FOR THE PACKAGE,ETA,HOW DO YOU FEEL PERFORMANCE WILL COMPARE TO (DONAVNE D) RICHARD

Richard, Regarding "period correct". we have strived to provide a product that has an external appearance that is identical to an original Model A engine and will have all interfaces for bolt on parts identical to original.

The price range will be between $3K and $4K for the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Exact pricing is dependent on tariffs, customs, transportation, and several other factors. We have firm prices from the factories that are manufacturing the first run of parts, however, those prices are subject to change with future orders.

Many people have been following this project since 2007 with encouraging comments, and we need to offer a discount to them so they will be able to buy 1 set of parts at close to the dealer price for a limited time.

From my observations of Donovan engines, they look good from about 30 feet away, but as you get closer, differences from stock become obvious, and a lot of interfaces for attaching parts are not stock.

Regarding performance, check out what Piaranios has done with stock cylinder blocks. https://automotiveamerican.com/2019/...d-engine-dyno/

Our new engine has an exterior appearance identical to stock, but with 5 main and 4 connecting rod bearings that are larger in diameter and 8 crankshaft counterweights, the new engine will have similar performance to what Piaranios tested, but have longer life due to larger bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and less crankshaft flexing.







Hi Terry, I’ve been reading about all your good work from the UK, I’m keeping my fingers crossed the verification process goes to plan. Is there a possibility of shipping to the UK? Thank you, Anton

Anton, yes, we will ship to the UK or anywhere in the world. Do you have a dealer with the resources to buy 5 at a time? If so, we would like to ship from China directly to the UK to avoid you having to pay customs twice.







I am very interested in your project. Would be interested in the finished product. I am building a number of different heads. Cook, Roof, Rutherford, and Winfield. Always having difficulty locating good blocks.
Stay in touch and keep me up dated. Thank you...Kevin


Kevin, You and I have the same passion for speed equipment to enhance the performance of the Model A Ford engine, and I think that you will be happy with the parts that we will provide.
Good stock cylinder blocks and crankshafts are getting harder to find, and they are not the best design compared to newer engines.



Please add my name if you have a list, Gerald 256-310-6XXX

Gerald, You are on the Email list for updates. We don't have another list because we don't have a product to sell that has passed verification. If and when the "new engine" meets our approval, everyone on the Email list and MARC and MAFCA chapters will be notified. Leonard, one of our team members will be responsible to create a list and fulfill orders as they are received. Leonard's contact information will be published after the new engine passes verification and the factories in China are given the go-ahead for production.





As an engineer myself (electrical) I am very excited about this new design. If it reaches production then I would like to obtain one or more assemblies for trial use in my personal Model A's and for installation in customer vehicles. David

David, Thanks for your comments.




I am very interested in having a more reliable, Model A engine with more power. I want to be able to cruise on the hi-way with traffic at 70 mph and destroy my engine. If this engine gets completed, I would be interested in a long block, and knowing what to cost would be.
Thank you, and good luck in your adventure. Mike


Mike, I think that you meant to say "not destroy" instead of destroy. We plan to test the new engine at a high RPM on a test stand for a length of time to prove reliability, and then go hill climbing. An original Model A crankshaft has 3 main bearings that are 1 5/8 inch diameter, and connecting rod bearings that are 1 1/2 inch diameter and no counterweights. The new engine has 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and all bearing journals are 2-inch diameter, so it should be more reliable. For liability reasons, I cannot support your idea of keeping up with traffic at 70 MPH, just like I couldn't support the use of the new engine to power an airplane in an earlier post. We are supplying a new cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. You and/or your engine builder will choose all attaching parts (new or used) to build an engine. We are not short or long block engine builders.




The distance between main bearing bolts is 2 inches. how can you use a 2 inch main bearing without rubbing the bolts? Ralph

Ralph, Thanks for your question. To maintain the original external appearance for front and center main bearings, the new engine uses studs that are in the same location as the original main bolts. The upper portion of the studs are 1/2-20 UNF and use castellated nuts and cotter pins as original. These studs are reduced to 7/16 inch diameter where they pass through the cylinder block/main cap interface, and the main caps are retained with 7/16-20 UNF nuts. The nominal clearance between the 2-inch crankshaft journal and the 7/16 studs is .03125 inch.




Hi, I read your crankshaft section, but what do you mean with 100%. Is 100% with rod and pistons weight in calculated in the crankshaft counterweights?
I am from Norway not very good is technical english.
Regards, Bjornar

Bjornar, Your technical English is good. When I say 100%, the counterweights are sized to exert a downward force equal to the upward force of stopping the piston at TDC. In other words, there are no bending forces in the crankshaft from stopping the piston. Note in the article that the counterweights are almost 1/2 of a circle and the crankshaft weighs 90 pounds. I have since changed the design so that the counterweights are smaller and not 100%. Everything in engineering is a compromise and I made the change to lessen the mass of the crankshaft for faster acceleration. The crankshaft counterweights could be drilled opposite of the connecting rod journals and have tungsten added to get back to 100% if desired. In the equation, SE is the small end weight of the connecting rod including the weight of the piston, wrist pin, and rings.
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Old 06-17-2020, 05:03 PM   #118
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry this may be a stupid question, but will the new engine HAVE to run a filter?

I know it is better for the engine but I never liked the looks of a filter on a Model A. I don't mind just draining the oil every 500 miles not a big deal.

Thanks
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:20 PM   #119
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi everyone,

Following are some recent progress photos of the blocks, crankshaft, and connecting rods.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg thumbnail_image 11.jpg (48.0 KB, 113 views)
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:21 PM   #120
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I don't recall hearing anything about the cam. Will we be on our own shopping for a cam, or will a stock A cam work with the 5 webs in the block?
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:54 PM   #121
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

You are correct in the observation of the block needing more support. Sorry, I cannot show the other side of this motor and any internals, you understand.

The parts look great, keep up the work, John
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:40 PM   #122
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will the new block have main studs instead of bolts and nuts?
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:15 PM   #123
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry this may be a stupid question, but will the new engine HAVE to run a filter?

I know it is better for the engine but I never liked the looks of a filter on a Model A. I don't mind just draining the oil every 500 miles not a big deal.

Thanks, Jeff



Jeff,

Thanks for your question. There are no stupid questions.

The answer is NO, a filter is not required and this will keep the exterior looking like the original. This no filter configuration is what we are planning to use for longevity and hill climb testing.

After the above testing is complete, we plan to reconfigure the engine to use an external oil filter and do additional testing on the run-in stand.

When using an external oil filter, a threaded dowel pin (McMaster Carr pull-out dowel pin #97355A401) needs to be installed in one of the internal oil passages. Oil will now exit the cylinder block where the 1/8 NPT plug is on the side of the cylinder block. The oil will flow to an external filter, and from the filter to the lower bolt of the timing gear inspection cover which needs to be drilled and tapped 1/8 NPT.
From the drilled bolt, internal passages connect to the main oil galley that runs full length of the cylinder block.

Whether you choose to use an oil filter or not, a higher volume oil pump is recommended. For testing, we will be using modified Model A oil pumps where the intake window is enlarged, the shaft has a reduced diameter between bushings and the exit holes are enlarged. In addition, an oil pump modified for an external oil filter needs the 2 upper slots filled to force all of the oil out at the 1/8 NPT plug fitting.







I know that production is close but any thoughts about drilling the back of the crank for two more flywheel mounting bolts? Or would it be possible to drill them later. Thanks, Richard
P.S. I can hardly wait to get one or two of you new engines!


Richard,
The new engine parts will have all original interfaces including the 2 dowel pins in the crankshaft flange.
Once received by buyers, the buyer is free to make modifications.
In mechanical design, dowel pins are used for precise location and to take shear loads.
I question the reason for wanting bolts instead of dowel pins. Dowel pins are stronger than bolts in shear and their precise diameter won't allow radial movement. Think about letting the 4 bolts do retention and let the 2 dowel pins take care of location and shear.





I don't recall hearing anything about the cam. Will we be on our own shopping for a cam, or will a stock A cam work with the 5 webs in the block? Russ


Russ,
You will get to choose the camshaft along with all the other parts. A 3 bearing camshaft will work. All 5 camshaft bushings in the new cylinder block have passages connected to the main oil galley. Bushings 1, 3, and 5 have holes that expose the oil passages. Camshaft bushings 2 and 4 have bushings that block the oil passages. If a 5 bearing camshaft is used, holes must be drilled in bushings 2 and 4 to connect with the oil passages.





Terry,
You are correct in the observation of the block needing more support. Sorry, I cannot show the other side of this motor and any internals, you understand.
The parts look great, keep up the work, John

John,
Thanks for the reply. I understand and could say with almost certainly what you are doing to get that horsepower and keeping a stock cylinder block intact. I won't comment.





Will the new block have main studs instead of bolts and nuts? DB

DB,
All 5 main bearing caps will be retained with studs and nuts.
Connecting rods will utilize bolts for retention.
All main and connecting rod caps will have 2 dowel pins each for location.
All hardware is UNF and UNC and 170KSI yield which is stronger than Grade 8.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:27 PM   #124
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Schedule slip.

The machinery that was being used to manufacture the new engine cylinder block is temporarily being utilized to make locomotive cylinder heads. We were expecting delivery of the sample parts just after the 4th of July and now the schedule has slipped by 2 to 3 weeks. This schedule slip does not affect the crankshaft or connecting rods.

As part of the verification process in China, we have sent many parts (wristpin bushing, wristpin, bearing inserts, ratchet nut, front pulley, Woodruff key, crankshaft timing gear, valve guide, tappet, and several other parts) so they can be assembled and fit checked before shipment.
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Old 07-04-2020, 01:31 PM   #125
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The delay due to machining locomotive cylinder heads is over and the new engine cylinder blocks are back to being machined. The connecting rods and crankshaft are complete and have been fit checked against one another. After the cylinder blocks are complete, there will be a fit check with the crankshaft, and then all parts will be air shipped and deliver to the 3rd party that will build, test, and evaluate the new engine. The engineering evaluation parts should arrive before the end of July 2020. John and I will be there and we are getting excited about seeing the parts for the first time. We will also document the build, assist where we can, and document the testing.

If all goes well and there are no changes, we should have parts in stock and for sale sometime in September. A firm introductory price has been set and it will be $3500 for a limited time. Dealers who buy 5 or more at a time will receive a further discount.

Pasted below are more comments and questions that were sent to the Email list at "[email protected]"







Like everyone else I’m curious about the price. Do you know when you will be accepting deposits? Thanks, Bill

Bill, we won't have a product to sell until it passes our engineering evaluation that includes appearance and performance testing. I'm the design engineer on this project, not the bean counter. We will accept orders and deposits after engineering evaluation, and where and how to place an order will be published to those on the Email list, FordBarn, MARC, MAFCA, and other places. We are not in the retail business, however, we will offer a discounted price of $3500 that is close to wholesale for a limited time to those that have followed this project since its beginning in 2007.






I would be interested in one of these casting sets (i.e. block, crankshaft, con rods, etc)
I would like to know a price estimate when you get that far.
Thanks very much!
Bill

Bill, The price will be $3500 for a limited time. Dealers who by 5 sets of parts at a time will receive a further discount.





I had a model A engine redone for around $2500.00. Will this new engine be priced around that amount? Moe

Moe, For a limited time after production begins, pricing will be $3500 for the new 5 main cylinder block, 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights, and 4 connecting rods. All of these parts will be made in China using factories that make many OEM parts for European, American, and Japanese automobile manufacturers.
I am curious regarding what you received with your $2500 rebuild. When I search the internet, rebuild costs for Model A engines are somewhat more than $2500 and even higher when extra work is needed to add crankshaft counterweights, balance the crankshaft and connecting rods, fix cracks, drill out broken studs to insert Helicoils, add valve seats, and install cylinder sleeves.
The factory in China that we are working with has multiple machining lines. Our order is small and will be utilizing the smallest machining line and that is why the price will be $3500.
If we were to place an order for 10,000 sets of parts, the order would be filled by using a machining line that is fully automated and the price for a set of parts would likely be close to half the cost of a $2500 rebuild.






Thank you for your continued interest in developing a replacement block and head for our Model A Vehicles.
Currently doing Frame Up on 1930 Closed Cab PU. Engine is tired and parts car (1928 Closed Cab) hasn't been torn down yet but I expect the same condition.
I would much rather start off with a new block and head before beginning the engine rebuild
Any communication will be sincerely appreciated. Don

Don, We are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. New heads are available from other sources. After 90 years and multiple repairs and questionable rebuilds, it's a good idea to start over with fresh surfaces that are within drawing tolerances. Regarding communication, I've added you to the Email list. All Emails sent from the list are sent Bcc so there is no chance that someone else will see your Email address.







Re-engineering the Model A engine I find to be one of the most fascinating projects I've read about in years. I like my original stock engine, but I'm always concerned about it's health and have interest in internal modifications, but I don't particularly like to modify good usable antique parts. A new re-engineered engine I find completely appropriate for us that like to get out every chance we get to go cruising.in an "A" no matter how hot it gets in Texas. Very interested! Terry

Terry, I added your contact information to the Email list. Thanks for the kind words. The new Model A engine will appear completely stock on the exterior because the exterior of an original cylinder block was laser scanned to create a SolidWorks model that was used to make the foundry patterns. Internally, the new Model A engine will be technically close to the last "L" head engines produced around 1970. Metallurgy, heat treating, rolling all crankshaft fillets, and balancing will be similar to current production engines. The new engine parts include the cylinder block with caps, thrust bearings, dowel pins, and hardware to attach the main bearing caps, a crankshaft with dowel pins and Woodruff key, and 4 connecting rods with wrist pin bushings and bolts to fasten the caps. Everything else is stock Model A Ford and does not need modification. We do recommend a higher volume oil pump that can be aftermarket or a modified Model A Ford oil pump.






I am interested in building a new engine for my Tudor and would like to use your products when they are ready. I am not in any hurry as my engine is low mileage and runs great now. I like your concept and engineering and the options for different levels of performance and reliability. Don


Don, Thanks for your comments. If all goes well, we should have parts for sale sometime in September 2020.
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Old 07-04-2020, 06:19 PM   #126
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What will the approx HP be?
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:08 AM   #127
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What ever you want to make.
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:12 AM   #128
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Dodge you are 100% correct. After I asked the question I said well, that was a very stupid question.
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Old 07-05-2020, 09:30 AM   #129
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Old31
Spell check bit you
You were asking how much hp could this be built to produce?

J
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:53 PM   #130
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Wow Terry, amazing stuff

Good for you!!!
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Old 07-05-2020, 05:13 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
Old31
Spell check bit you
You were asking how much hp could this be built to produce?

J
Nope, sorry, I was not that smart to ask the question that way.
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:53 AM   #132
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Maybe the question should be how much power can it handle. The weak link is usually the crank and this one looks pretty stout.
It would be fun to put a good overhead on it and see how it will RPM.
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:21 PM   #133
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Thank you for your very thorough description of the production process and what to expect in the final product.

From what I’ve read, all the machining will be done so the block will be ready For the engine builder to assemble the engine. I assume the buyer will have the option to use insert or Babbitt bearings. Is that correct?

David Serrano
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Old 07-07-2020, 04:35 PM   #134
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

From everything Terry has explained, if you want babbit bearings, your going to have to get that done as a custom project, as he has planed for all insert bearings. ( not included )

Cam bushings will be installed.
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:07 PM   #135
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks Russ. It’s hard for this old brain to retain all that information.

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Old 07-08-2020, 12:33 PM   #136
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.

I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one.

Thank you
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Old 07-08-2020, 01:24 PM   #137
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
Terry,
Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.

I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one.

Thank you
It has been stated that the bearing inserts are Small Block Chevy. Probably one of the most popular engines ever made. Bearings available at any auto parts store.
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:28 PM   #138
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
It has been stated that the bearing inserts are Small Block Chevy. Probably one of the most popular engines ever made. Bearings available at any auto parts store.
Thanks Chris, I missed that. Dave
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:42 PM   #139
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, I used to get your email updates on the new engine, but don't any more. I have been following your updates with great interest and desire to purchase. In preparation for my order which just awaits your go ahead, please include my email address on your followers list so I will get the go ahead to order early. Thank you for your commitment to the project and the excitement you are bringing to our hobby. Russ/40


Russ, Thanks for letting me know that you are no longer receiving the updates by Email. I'm always trying to shorten the Email list. When I get a message that an Email was undeliverable for some reason, I delete that Email address from the list.
I see that you have 2 Email addresses and have added both to the list.





I also would be interested in the new blocks and would . can you keep me in the loop when they will be ready for sale. Thanks Lawrie


Lawrie, When we have parts for sale, we will notify people on the Email list, MARC chapters, MAFCA chapters, and forums. I see that you are not on the Email list, so you will likely hear about it on FordBarn.






Maybe the question should be how much power can it handle. The weak link is usually the crank and this one looks pretty stout.
It would be fun to put a good overhead on it and see how it will RPM. Dodge


Dodge, I had the connecting rods finite element analyzed for 150 HP at 5000 RPM (158 lb-ft at 5000 RPM) and the stresses were very low. More can be found here http://www.modelaengine.com/12-conne...gn-a-6200.html
The crankshaft is stout and well supported compared to a Model A or B crankshaft, but has not been analyzed.






Terry, Thank you for your very thorough description of the production process and what to expect in the final product.
From what I’ve read, all the machining will be done so the block will be ready For the engine builder to assemble the engine. I assume the buyer will have the option to use insert or Babbitt bearings. Is that correct? David


David, Yes, the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods will be ready for assembly using bearing inserts that GM used from 1955 until 2003. If you want Babbitt, your engine builder can provide, but it will be an added expense to pour and line bore.






Hi Terry, I have followed your efforts for years, good to see it coming together.
I will need a block late this fall to assemble and test. I will pair it with a Roof overhead valve head I have in storage. I am also developing a set of hydraulic lifters that are contained in the profile of a standard Model A tappet. I had this head on a "B" block that cracked and at the time was having a problem keeping the valve lash within tolerance...thus the hydraulic lifters.
This setup put out about 118 hp on the dyno at 3500 rpm. I think your block assembly will work well with this project.
Upon successful completion of the test assembly, I am interested in becoming one of your wholesale purchasers of the block assemblies.
I look forward to the engine being available. Dave


Dave, Thanks for the kind words
The main oil gallery is just above the valve chamber floor and runs the full length of the cylinder block. The gallery is located between the cylinders and tappet bosses. From the centerline of the main bearings, the centerline of the gallery is 2.35 inches in the horizontal direction and 4.46 inches in the vertical direction. The diameter of the main oil gallery is .393 inches in diameter. Every one of the tappet bosses could be drilled from the valve cover side through to the gallery and the starting hole could be plugged with a setscrew.
We would be happy for you to become a dealer with a wholesale account.







Terry, Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.
I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one. Thank you, Dave



The inserts are MAHLE part number CB745P (trimetal) and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors. The first usage was in the 1955 265 cubic inch V-8, and the last usage was in the 2.0 liter 4 cylinder OHV that was made in 2003. Both the main and connecting rod journals are the same at 2 inch diameter. The price for a pair of inserts including postage can be less than $3 for a pair. 12 pairs of inserts are required for the new engine. Check out Ebay #281494310467. Other manufacturers also make this insert.

The new cylinder block and rear main cap will have a bore of 5-inch diameter, and the crankshaft will have the flywheel mounting flange (4-inch diameter) that is extended forward to provide a seal rubbing surface. The rear main seal will be a SKF 39933, Timken 415035, or others with a 5 inch OD that seals on a 4-inch shaft. The seals mentioned above have garter springs. Garter springs are usually not used on high speed shafts, so we will likely remove the garter spring for our engineering evaluation engine.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:38 PM   #140
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

.
FYI - Terry Burtz posted the following progress update today on the development of the Model A block:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

15 July 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com This website also has previous updates, pictures and videos.

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, suggestion, or wants to get on the Email list for updates, please let me know at [email protected] and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue and add your Email address to the update list.

FordBarn,(https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782) is an internet social group for Model A Ford hobbyists and there are a lot of interesting questions and comments regarding this project. There are too many people on the Email list to keep everyone informed as things progress, so please check the FordBarn website for the latest developments. The FordBarn thread also tells the complete story from July 2019 when this stalled project was resurrected.


New Engine

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and they have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 19 June 2020.


Cylinder Block and Main Caps

We were expecting to have the engineering evaluation hardware (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods delivered just after the July 4th holiday. This didn't happen because the machinery being utilized to machine the cylinder blocks was reassigned to machine locomotive cylinder heads. This resulted in a schedule slip and the new Model A cylinder blocks are now expected before the end of July 2020.


Crankshaft

The engineering evaluation crankshafts are complete and are awaiting completion of the cylinder blocks for fit-check verification. For ease of manufacture, the factory asked and we agreed to change the drilling method from a single hole to cross-drilling. Although this is not our crankshaft, the video shows how crankshafts are cross-drilled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZDCpWoZJV4 If you stop the video at 3:49, you will see the paths of the oil passages. The dead-ended passages will be plugged with setscrews so they can be removed to clean the passages.


Connecting Rods

The engineering evaluation connecting rods are complete and have been fit-checked to the crankshaft and wrist pin using the insert bearing and wrist pin that we provided.


Design Verification

We have been in contact with an engine rebuilder and parts supplier that has agreed to be a 3rd party evaluator to verify the design by assembling a short block with parts that we supply, and then assemble a complete engine with some new and mostly used parts that he supplies.

We are planning to have the new engine parts air-shipped from China and delivered to the 3rd party evaluator's business location and we are excited to see what arrives. This will be our first opportunity to visually see the new engine parts.

The new engine parts will be cosmetically compared to original parts, and dimensionally measured to confirm that all interfaces are a match to Ford drawings for attaching parts. Any discrepancies found will be documented so they can be corrected before the production run.

We have asked the 3rd party evaluator to build a "touring engine" that utilizes mostly stock parts but uses a high compression head and lightened flywheel. Along with the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods, we will supply a Stipe 5 bearing camshaft, a modified Model A oil pump, and a Stipe oil pump.

Our findings and assessment during the evaluation will be published as posts to FordBarn which is so much easier than sending hundreds of Emails. The FordBarn thread regarding the new engine and where we will post our findings is here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782

After assembly of the new engine, it will be run on a test stand at a high RPM for a length of time, and then installed in a car that will be driven in hill climbs at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Next, the engine will be plumbed to utilize an oil filter and again run on the test stand. After all testing, the engine will be disassembled and all moving parts will be inspected for wear. If we agree that the design is valid, we will authorize production.



Next Update and Other Comments


If all goes well and there are no major changes resulting from engineering evaluation, we will authorize production and should have parts in stock and for sale sometime in September 2020.

We have set a discounted introductory price of $3500 for 60 days that will include a cylinder block with main caps, thrust washers, camshaft bearings and all dowel pins installed, main cap studs and nuts, connecting rods with wrist pin bushings and dowel pins installed along with fasteners, and a crankshaft with dowel pins and Woodruff key installed. Dealer pricing for quantities of 5 will be less. After the 60-day introductory price, we are planning to sell exclusively through dealers (parts retailers and machine shops) that order 5 or more at a time. The start date for the 60 days introductory price has not been set.

I'm the engineer on this project. The other team members are John Lampl who is responsible for manufacturing, quality assurance, transportation, customs, and pricing, William Percival who is our bean counter and computer guru, and Leonard Nettles who is responsible for receiving orders and shipping parts.

After the engineering evaluation parts pass our appearance and testing requirements, the production order will be placed and information regarding how to contact John, William, and Leonard will be published to the people on the Email list, Ford Barn, all MARC and MAFCA chapters, and parts retailers and machine shops.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

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Last edited by wrpercival; 07-16-2020 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:40 PM   #141
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Whenever I post an update to this project, my mailbox fills up with questions, comments, and interesting stories. Here are a few, and there are more to come.

I have been following your project, but think I am not on a list to be informed as soon as ordering is possible. I am old enough to want to get your block crank and rods as soon as possible. Who knows what tomorrow may bring. I would like to buy directly, but would be okay going through a dealer if that would get me the product and a complete block faster. I was following Tod’s efforts to cast a new block, but you seem to be far ahead, and as a SF Bay Area guy I would prefer to have the motor done locally. Machinists are hard to find who specialize in Model A’s, but as your design is internally more modern, I may be able to use a local Burlingame automotive machinist who seems to do quality work.
Please put me on the mailing list to get ordering information as soon as you are ready to start taking orders and deposits.
Thanks, Russ

Russ, there is no list at this time. We have nothing to sell until the new engine engineering evaluation parts successfully pass our evaluation. The introductory price for a limited time will be $3500 per set of parts (cylinder block, crankshaft and connecting rods including all fasteners, dowel pins, and bushings).
Dealers who order 5 sets or more at a time will receive a further discount.
Once we have something to sell, people on the Email list, all MAFCA and MARC chapters, and internet forums will be notified.





Why reinvent the wheel? Skat can make the crankshaft and rods and they are already drilled for pressure oil. It seems to me to be a much cheaper way to go. I have worked with and used Skat products for quite a while and their quality is top notch and their suppliers are reliable and cost effective. After reading from start of this project to this email, it seems to me your vendors have been suspect in a number of areas to say the least. I will tell you that many Chinese vendors will tell you one thing and deliver totally different spec. For example, a company I am very familure spec'td a hi end bike carrier for expensive off road mountain bikes. After delivering a number of these expensive racks, customers began filing claims as their bikes were falling off of car. Even though the spec was totally clear and the Chinese factory and manager signed off, he decided to use grade 2 bolts instead of the grade 8 that was called for. The bouncing of the car and bikes broke the grade 2 bolts and the vertical bike support fell into the road and the car following ran over and smashed the bikes. When the company contacted the factory seems no one took responsibility, and tried to blame it on the bolt supplier. It put the company out of business due to the claims with no one in China stepping up to take responsibility. The moral is don't believe a word they say period. Incidentally the Chinese shipped about 25 racks for inspection and guess what they had the spec'td grade 8 bolts. Good luck with your project I can see lots of down stream issues with their steel quality and fasteners, so I opt out and pass, just give me a henry block and a quality Skat crank and rods. Just by sheer number of cranks that Skat buys in China they ain't gonna screw with them. Skat has 30 crank grinders going all day long and they supply a lot of major manufacturers. In your case maybe 50 cranks and blocks if you are lucky. . Howard



Howard, Thanks for your comments and the "hi end" bike rack story.

I like SCAT products.

SCAT makes crankshafts for Model T, Model A, Model B, and 4 cylinder Chevrolet engines. I have met in person with Tom Leib, owner of SCAT and we had a long conversation about crankshafts.

The crankshafts for the above engines are all made from a "Fits-All" forging from India that is machined in California. The "Fits-All" forging is a compromise for any of the engines listed above and the rod journals cannot be machined for Model B connecting rods because there is not enough material on the forging.

The "New Model A Engine" has a crankshaft with 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and 4 connecting rod bearings that are all 2 inches in diameter. The corresponding SCAT crankshaft for a Model A engine has 3 main bearings, 4 counterweights, and 4 connecting rod bearings that are 1.5 inch diameter.

Regarding your comment "After reading from start of this project to this email, it seems to me your vendors have been suspect in a number of areas to say the least.". Thank you for following this project from the beginning. The only vendor that I spent money to perform in the past was Lodi Iron Works. They had no quality control, and refused to follow a procedure even when I wrote it like a Ikea or Lego manual without words for the assembly of cores, and this is why the project stalled. We are now working with factories in China that have good quality control and specialize in making OEM engines for many manufacturers.

Regarding the "hi end" bike racks and the Grade 8 bolt problem, all high strength bolts have marks on their head to indicate strength. Low strength bolts like grade 2 have no markings. Did the bolts that failed have head markings? Did the bike rack company that imported the racks have any Quality Assurance personnel that inspected bolt heads? Did the installation instructions specify a torque value for the bolts? Any of the above questions could have prevented the problem. China is not a big fastener manufacturer, and our fasteners for the new engine will come from factories in South Korea that specialize in making high strength fasteners. Our builders guide will specify torque values for the fasteners and any low strength fastener will fail during engine assembly.

Regarding your comment "Good luck with your project I can see lots of down stream issues with their steel quality and fasteners, so I opt out and pass, just give me a henry block and a quality Skat crank and rods." Thanks for wishing us good luck with this project and I am sorry to see that you are not interested and want to "opt out". The new Model A engine is utilizing materials and processes that are used in modern engines by companies that specialize in building engines. I am confident that we won't have the fastener problems that you experienced. I also want to wish you the best of luck in your choice to use an original "Henry" 3 main block with a SCAT 3 main "Fits-All" crankshaft.








Hi Terry,
Sounds like this project is coming right along
I have a few questions
1. does the engine come with all the main bearings and rod bearings?
2. Is this going to end up as a 3 or 5 main engine?
3. What do you expect the dealer prices to be on 5 sets?
What pistons with the engine be setup to use?Thanks for your time
I will be interested to possibly being a central USA dealer for these
Eric


1) The only bearings being supplied are the thrust washers. All other bearing are MAHLE part number CB745P (trimetal) and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors. The first usage was in the 1955 265 cubic inch V-8, and the last usage was in the 2.0 liter 4 cylinder OHV that was made in 2003. Both the main and connecting rod journals are the same at 2 inch diameter. The price for a pair of inserts including postage can be less than $3 for a pair. 12 pairs of inserts are required for the new engine. Check out Ebay #281494310467. Other manufacturers also make this insert.
2) 5 mains
3) I'll have John Lampl contact you regarding Dealer pricing.
Regarding pistons, all interfaces on the new engine are identical a to stock Model A. If any part fits a Model A engine, that same part will fit the new engine.





Thank you. I truly enjoy the project and pleased to be one of your first sales orders when you are confident George

George, Thanks for the kind words. At this stage in the project, I don't see anything major that can go wrong.





Terry, first I would like to commend you for your commitment to this project. I have been following it more or less since you started and I realize the magnitude of your undertaking.
I am very interested in an introductory engine to put in my 1929 dirt track race car with a Riley 2 port head. I do have a couple of questions.
Does the 60 day introductory price include a complete short block with the 2 oil pumps you mentioned?
Is the grind of the camshaft a mirror the Model A, is it ground more like a Model B, or is it some other grind?
Thank you, Bob


Bob, we are not supplying a complete short block. We are only supplying a cylinder block, crankshaft, and a set of connecting rods that are ready to assemble. You get to choose pistons, rings, valve train, and all other parts needed to build an engine. With your Riley head, you will need a special camshaft ground that is compatible with your rocker arm ratio.






Terry, thanks for the update but I refuse to visit the haterbarn for my information, so keep the email updates coming or post the updates on the ford vintage. I know yo are a member there too. azzclone

azzclone, Thanks for your comments.
The thread on FordBarn is very long with over 26,000 views, and that is why I post there.
If you read the FordBarn post from the start, there is a story about how this dead project was revived. The story is not on the ford vintage or the Ahooga Forum.
Are you one of the people that are banned from FordBarn?
I accidentally got banned from the ford vintage and was banned from seeing posts. I contacted Steve Plucker and he contacted Mitch who reinstated me.
If you can't see the posts on FordBarn, please let me know and I'll post also on the ford vintage.
I will continue to send Email updates until this project either succeeds, or comes to a halt as it did when Lodi Iron Works could not deliver as promised.





Terry, Thank you for your update and great to hear of the progress being made.
I really look forward to hearing the results of your validation testing and trust that the amount of time you and your team have taken to develop the engine will prove to be a success. Please put me on the list to be able to purchase the block/crank, rods, caps, etc. once they are available for sale.
In reviewing your webpage is it still your intention to follow through and have the 22 pound flywheels built?
Stay safe, Regards, Bob


Bob, Our next project will be the flywheel. I have a SolidWorks design that is on hold until we validate the new engine parts and authorize production.





Thanks Terry for the update. This is great news, looking forward get the new parts.
Lance, God Bless America, Sent from my iPad

Lance, thanks for your comment and God bless America in these troubled times.




Looking forward to the release date for purchase! John

Me too. If all goes well, we should have parts for sale in September 2020.




Thank you. I truly enjoy the project and pleased to be one of your first sales orders when you are confident George

George, Thanks for your comment.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:45 PM   #142
Lee Stohr
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi guys, I am new on this group, but I have been following Terry's work for many years. I actually visited him in California long ago when he was starting this project. I'm very glad to see that it is nearing completion, the design looks really good, as you would expect from someone with his skills.

I have been reading the thread, and I see comments about how we can't cast engine blocks in the USA, we've lost the skills, labor costs are going up in China (according to the Apple CEO) etc. I beg to disagree. I am getting the following engine blocks made here in the USA, in Michigan: Bugatti Type 57, Miller 122, 1907 Pierce Arrow, 1909 Christie. We've actually sold & shipped Bugatti blocks to Europe. It's expensive to work in the USA, for a lot of reasons we don't need to get into here on a car forum. But the skills and foundry's are here. I'm certainly not alone, guys like Tod B. make me feel like an amateur.

Anyway, I apologize, this is not my thread, so I'll leave it there. I do look forward to watching the completion of Terry's work.
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Old 07-29-2020, 06:11 PM   #143
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi guys, I am new on this group, but I have been following Terry's work for many years. I actually visited him in California long ago when he was starting this project. I'm very glad to see that it is nearing completion, the design looks really good, as you would expect from someone with his skills.

I have been reading the thread, and I see comments about how we can't cast engine blocks in the USA, we've lost the skills, labor costs are going up in China (according to the Apple CEO) etc. I beg to disagree. I am getting the following engine blocks made here in the USA, in Michigan: Bugatti Type 57, Miller 122, 1907 Pierce Arrow, 1909 Christie. We've actually sold & shipped Bugatti blocks to Europe. It's expensive to work in the USA, for a lot of reasons we don't need to get into here on a car forum. But the skills and foundry's are here. I'm certainly not alone, guys like Tod B. make me feel like an amateur.

Anyway, I apologize, this is not my thread, so I'll leave it there. I do look forward to watching the completion of Terry's work.




Lee, It's good to hear from you. Thanks for joining FordBarn and reading the thread. The New Model A engine project has been an adventure.

We have accomplished more in the last year in China than I did in the many years working with Lodi Iron Works. I too, have been following your Christie project and am amazed on how you are creating SolidWorks models from the patent drawings and photographs.

Are you using the foundry in Michigan that cast the new Model T cylinder blocks for Ford's centennial celebration in 2003? When it was becoming evident that Lodi Iron Works was not able to perform, I spoke with that foundry in Michigan over the phone and they seemed very capable. I also spoke with other foundries in the Midwest, and several sounded like they were capable. The biggest problem was tooling. As a general rule, any foundry will only guarantee good castings if their pattern shop makes the patterns and core boxes.

I contacted Tod B. when I pulled the tooling from Lodi Iron Works, and he was not interested in working with me. Our Email exchange is documented somewhere in the thread.

I have only seen photographs of the parts being made in China, and they look good. Due to covid19, we won't physically be able to see the parts until they arrive at our 3rd party evaluator.

I know that that the new Model A engine (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) could be produced in the USA, but it would have to be the Midwest and the cost would be prohibitive for the average Model A enthusiast.

Our engine projects are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. You are working with people that have deep pockets and are making just a few castings that are unobtainable, whereas we are working with people that have shallow pockets, original castings that are available, but not the best design and worn, and many new machined castings and forgings at a time.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:29 AM   #144
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Schedule update: John Lampl just spoke with the factory in China. All engineering evaluation parts are scheduled to ship on Aug 10, 2020. They will be Fed-Ex air-shipped, need to clear customs, and then will be ground shipped to our 3rd party evaluator. Arrival date at the 3rd party evaluator is expected to be between Aug. 14 and 17, 2020.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:46 PM   #145
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Terry,
Great to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words on the Christie project.
I do not know what foundry cast the Ford centennial blocks, but I currently use Northfield foundry. As you say, the tooling design is very important. I design my own molds and I go to great lengths to make the foundry's job as easy as possible. I think that reduces the scrap rate. We have been very lucky and the first casting of each new block has been good.
I do not know any foundry that gives a written guarantee, even if they make the patterns. I have been fortunate to work on some higher end cars, but it doesn't matter to the foundry if it's 4 cylinder Ford or a 4 cylinder Miller block. (two blocks make a straight eight Miller). I do use 3D printed cores, because my quantities are not high, so I don't spend money on permanent core boxes. I can do some interesting things with printed cores, and change them anytime I want with a few strokes on the computer.
Anyway, I can't wait to see your new parts in August!
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Old 08-03-2020, 02:53 PM   #146
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Lee, Thanks for your comments.

The foundry that you are using, Northfield Manufacturing in Westland, MI. (www.northfieldfoundry.com) is the foundry that cast the 2003 Ford Model T centennial cylinder blocks, and one that I contacted and felt that they were capable. They have also cast Maxwell cylinders for an acquaintance of mine and Charlie Yapp from "Secrets of Speed" has used them.

3-D mold printing machines are amazing. There is no need for draft, and even reverse draft is allowable. The cores and mold including cope, drag, sprues, runners, and vents are all printed as a single entity and are ready for pouring. There are no parting lines.

Before I decided to use Lodi Iron Works, I visited a foundry at the repurposed McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento that was set up for the "Casting Emission Reduction Program". This foundry had an automated casting line from Ford Motor Company for an obsolete 4 cylinder engine. The foundry was trying different core binders and measuring the resulting emissions for each different core binder. They had a mold printing machine and they quoted a price of $2500 to mold a Model A Ford cylinder block. Lodi's quote was $800 for the same cylinder block using patterns and core boxes..

If the choice were to procure a printed mold cylinder block and add the cost of main caps, machining of the cylinder block, forging and machining connecting rods, and the cost of a 5 main crankshaft, the cost becomes prohibitive for the Model A enthusiast.

Our introductory price of $3500 includes a fully machined cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods that are ready for assembly, and close to the cost of a quality rebuild.
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Old 08-04-2020, 02:00 PM   #147
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, my son and I can’t wait to get our hands on this new engine! Ted
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:25 PM   #148
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That's an incredible introductory price! I almost want one, even though I have no idea what I'd do with it
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:52 PM   #149
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Terry, my son and I can’t wait to get our hands on this new engine! Ted
Yes, we definitely are!

I have a question about finish machining.

Will the cylinder bores be finish honed or just bored and then need a final hone? Valve seats as well, will they have seats inserted? Will they have any angle(s) on them upon arrival? Valve guide bores will be ready to accept the factory sized guides of my choice?

I have the machines for this, I'm just looking to get the ball rolling on some pricing for inquiring potential customers.

Thanks again Terry and co. I am patiently awaiting pictures of the engines when they get here in a few days!

Theo
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:07 PM   #150
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Theo,
Cylinder bores will be finished honed at 3.875/3.876 inch diameter per Ford Drawing A-6015 and this is suitable for original split-skirt pistons. Solid-skirt pistons will require more piston/cylinder wall clearance.
Exhaust seats will be installed and all valve seats are 45 degrees per Ford drawing A-6015.
Valve guide and tappet bores are .5940/.5945 inch diameter per Ford drawing A-6015.
These dimensions will be verified on the engineering samples before production is authorized.






Hi terry,
Sorry to bother you as I know you are very busy with this very exciting new engine.
One further question, you mention in your email plumbing for a oil filter, is that fairly straight forward? I certainly would want to have an oil filter from first start up.
Regards Peter



Peter,
To use a full flow oil filter, a few plumbing changes need to be made.
1)If a modified Model A Ford oil pump is used, 2 oil passages in the cylinder block need to be blocked off.
2) If an aftermarket (like Stipe) oil pump is used, 1 oil passage in the cylinder block needs to be blocked.
3) With either 1 or 2 above, all oil will exit the side of the cylinder block at the 1/8-27 NPT port.
4) The oil flows through the oil filter and returns to the cylinder block through the lower timing gear inspection cover bolt. This bolt needs to be drilled and tapped 1/8-27 NPT, and has an oil passage behind it that connects to the main oil galley.
5) The verification plan includes testing with and without an oil filter.

There are several people from Australia that are interested in this project. When the engineering samples pass verification and production is authorized, we will start a list of people interested in purchasing the new engine parts. If there is enough interest from Australia, we would like to ship directly from China to Australia to save on transportation and customs.
Terry Burtz
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Old 08-21-2020, 08:58 AM   #151
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, thank you for answering my questions about the machining specifics, thats great!

It would be great if shipping straight to Canada was an option as well! I am set for an order of 5 as soon as they are available.

Thanks,
Theo
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Old 09-01-2020, 11:50 AM   #152
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, we are eagerly anticipating further updates! Ted

Last edited by motordr; 09-01-2020 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Spelcheck
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Old 09-02-2020, 10:53 PM   #153
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The 1st set of new engine parts (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) that are needed to assemble the first engineering evaluation engine have arrived and are at the 3rd parties facility.

A partially cut apart cylinder block has also arrived. It will be cut further to validate wall thickness.

The 1st cylinder block has cam bushings that are .001 inch oversize beyond drawing dimensions. This was found during final inspection in China and will have minimal effect because we are using a new Stipe camshaft with standard size bearings.

The 2nd set of new engine parts will have correctly sized cam bushings and should arrive in about 10 days.

The 3rd party has asked us not to come for a few days so he can do his own inspection and verification ahead of our arrival.

John, Bill, and I have airplane tickets to fly to the 3rd party on September 8th.

I will post an update on September 9th.

The attached pictures were taken this morning at the 3rd parties facility.

Terry Burtz
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File Type: jpg Sept2-2.jpg (36.9 KB, 158 views)
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Old 09-03-2020, 12:52 AM   #154
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry you should do a good photo shoot when the first engine is completed with you bending over the engine stamping number 1 on it just like Henry......
Your definitely going to leave your mark on this hobby.
Thanks for your perseverance in this endeavor. We new we would see the day.
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Old 09-03-2020, 01:03 AM   #155
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:38 AM   #156
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?
Bill,
The engine bearing surfaces including the mains, cam and rods are fed oil from an oil passage located between the tappet bosses and the cylinder walls. The crankshaft is drilled to feed the rod bearings. There is likely little if any oil passing through the oil return pipe. The size of the hole shown should be more than adequate to flow any oil passing through or accumulating in the pipe.
The "dipper tray" turns into a "windage tray" as the new rods do not have dippers.

Dave
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Old 09-03-2020, 05:40 PM   #157
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, in a stock application, what kind of flywheel weight would you recommend since the crank is adding a lot of weight to the rotating assembly.
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Old 09-03-2020, 06:18 PM   #158
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Where is your 3rd party work being done?
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Old 09-03-2020, 09:18 PM   #159
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Where is your 3rd party work being done?
I am sure he is not disclosing that so the third party will be left alone to do their work.
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Old 09-03-2020, 11:37 PM   #160
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry you should do a good photo shoot when the first engine is completed with you bending over the engine stamping number 1 on it just like Henry......
Your definitely going to leave your mark on this hobby.
Thanks for your perseverance in this endeavor. We new we would see the day. Dodge

I have discussed this with John, and we will likely do it. Henry's stamping of #1 was a photo op because the early engines had the serial number boss located just above the water inlet, not at the top of the cylinder block.





I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?
Bill G

Originally Posted by Bill G
I have a question about the oil return. Is it intentional that the oil return hole is so small?

Bill, The engine bearing surfaces including the mains, cam and rods are fed oil from an oil passage located between the tappet bosses and the cylinder walls. The crankshaft is drilled to feed the rod bearings. There is likely little if any oil passing through the oil return pipe. The size of the hole shown should be more than adequate to flow any oil passing through or accumulating in the pipe.
The "dipper tray" turns into a "windage tray" as the new rods do not have dippers. Dave


Dave, Thanks for answering Bill's question. The only things that I can add to your answer is that the oil return pipe is only there for decoration and the small hole at the bottom is for drainage of any trapped oil. The floor of the valve chamber also has vent holes to the crankcase to allow the oil mist to lubricate the valve guides and tappets.







Terry, in a stock application, what kind of flywheel weight would you recommend since the crank is adding a lot of weight to the rotating assembly. Russ

We are making 30 pound flywheels that will accept the V-8 or tractor pressure plates. The flywheel will be sold separately since many enthusiasts already have a flywheel that they want to use. An engineering sample flywheel is at the 3rd party evaluator and will be used in validation.






Where is your 3rd party work being done? Carl


Where is your 3rd party work being done?
I am sure he is not disclosing that so the third party will be left alone to do their work. Chris


The 3rd party agreed to help validate the new engine, but was unsure of what he would receive and didn't want his name associated with something that could of been sub-standard.
This is why he wanted a few days to evaluate the parts before we arrived.
The machinist at the 3rd party is very enthused by what he saw and has already installed the valve guides and lapped the valve seats.
In a phone conversation today, the machinist said that everything fit as it should and there were no issues.

Due to covid19, John, Bill, Leonard, and myself have not seen the new engine parts other than photographs.
We have a detailed validation plan that includes appearance, tolerances, and performance.
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Old 09-04-2020, 12:05 AM   #161
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I am sure he is not disclosing that so the third party will be left alone to do their work.
I guess I wasn’t very clear in the wording of my question. I wasn’t asking for the name of the 3rd party, but where geographically.
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:38 AM   #162
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, can you tell us what type of valve guide the third party used? Are they pressed in or the type that are held in by the valve spring single piece or original 2 piece used with original type valves with mushroom ends?
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Old 09-06-2020, 02:09 AM   #163
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I guess I wasn’t very clear in the wording of my question. I wasn’t asking for the name of the 3rd party, but where geographically. Carl

Geographically, the new engine parts were manufactured in mainland China and transported to Hong Kong. From Hong Kong, the parts were air transported to a port of entry in the USA to pass customs, and from there, they were air transported to an airport near the 3rd party. After arrival at the airport near the 3rd party, the parts were transported by truck to the 3rd party. FedEx took care of all transportation. The parts are in the United States for 3rd party evaluation and we will get to see them on the afternoon of Sept. 8.





Terry, can you tell us what type of valve guide the third party used? Are they pressed in or the type that are held in by the valve spring single piece or original 2 piece used with original type valves with mushroom ends? dennisklisenen


The interfaces on the new cylinder block are identical to original, so any of the original or aftermarket valve guides that don't require cylinder block modifications will work.

The 3rd party made the choice to use the "Modern Valve Kit" from Antique Engine Rebuilding in Skokie, IL. This kit uses press in guides.

The 3rd party has built over 300 engines using these valve guides.

I'm happy that the tolerances on the new cylinder block were compatible for a press fit of the new aftermarket valve guides, and that the valve seats were concentric with the valve guides.

We are only supplying the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods.

Our validation plan allows the 3rd party builder to choose the other parts that he has experience with to complete an engine and deliver a quality product.
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:05 AM   #164
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So glad this block is coming along...

It's late, and I don't feel like looking through all nine pages, so if someone gets iffy for my asking this question if it's been asked already, forgive me-

Is the new block still using three mains for the camshaft, or did they go to a five-main?

Just curious.
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Old 09-07-2020, 02:31 PM   #165
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It has 5 journals for the cam and either a 3 or 5 bearing journal cam will work in it.
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Old 09-22-2020, 10:04 PM   #166
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Any updates on this great project?
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:37 AM   #167
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Hello to All,

27 September 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this email without seeing the full article on the "new" Model A engine, it is available at http://www.modelaengine.com. This website also has all of the previous updates, pictures, and videos.

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, suggestion, or wants to get on the email list for updates, please email [email protected]. We will add your email address to our mailing list and do our best to address any questions you may have.


New Engine

The term "new engine" is loosely used. The only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to the original Model A engine, and they have been documented from the original Ford drawings.

Since our last update on 15 July 2020, we have been working with the factory to complete and ship the prototype components for evaluation and testing.


Design Verification

The new engine parts and the optional flywheel arrived in the US and were received by the 3rd-party evaluator during the first week of September. John, Terry, and I met there the following week to begin the verification process. Leonard had intended to join us but had an important family obligation.

Over the next ten days, we conducted a detailed inspection of the new parts, evaluated their fitment, and completed a working engine assembly with the new parts combined with stock Model A components. Following assembly, the new motor was run for approximately 15 hours under varying conditions to observe its performance.

As mentioned previously, due to the impacts of COVID, this was our first opportunity to inspect the parts physically. We worked with the evaluator who is experienced with building Model A engines to confirm the new parts' specification, compatibility with existing stock components, complete the engine build, and test run it for several days on both a stand and installed in a Model A. We finished the test run by performing a hill climb of over five miles that included over 1,700 feet of elevation gain.

The evaluator's participation and input were critical, both from the standpoint of ensuring the engine was assembled correctly, but as important, providing an independent assessment and feedback of the internal modifications required to support a 5-main block. They have asked to remain anonymous, but we want to acknowledge their invaluable input and generous support and accommodation during the testing process.

Following is more detail on the testing process and the results. Also included at the end of this update is a link to some of the pictures and video clips that we recorded to provide additional context to the testing process we went through.


Parts and Fitment Inspection

Days 1 and 2 were dedicated to inspecting and measuring the new parts to ensure their design integrity. The focus of developing this engine has always been to integrate the understood advantages of a 5-main design without compromising the exterior appearance of the original design.

Accordingly, our evaluation included carefully assessing the fitment of the modified crankshaft and connecting rods in the modified block, as well as their complete compatibility with the inventory of stock components that includes heads, camshaft, pumps, pans, and supporting housing covers.

In particular, the modified oil galleys were checked to confirm all passages were clear, fully plumbed, and capable of supporting three- and five-bearing camshaft implementations and an external oil filter in the event an owner wants that as an option.

Plastigage was used to confirm proper clearances for all main and connecting rods caps when torqued to spec. Pictures are included of those results.

Valves were seated and connecting rods checked for balance along with other the many other details you would normally associate with a proper engine build.


The Build Process

After inspecting the engine and confirming the fitment of the individual components, we began the build process which required approximately two days. The crank, cam and oil pump were installed first, followed by valves, pistons, seals and the flywheel.

During the assembly, several minor clearance conflicts were identified. However, we were able to readily modify them without negatively impacting the test process or biasing the end results.

For example, there was a slight clearance issue with the cam and the rear of # 4 cam bearing housing. Through grinding, casting material was removed to provide the necessary clearance and documented for the factory. Prior to moving into full production, the tooling will be adjusted to eliminate that issue. A "before and after" picture is included that shows the area of conflict before and after the profile was reduced.

Similarly, several hex bolts that are used to attach the connecting rod caps were lightly contacting one of the sidewalls of the oil pan when rotating. For the purposes of testing, we switched bolts with lower profile heads and further refined them slightly through grinding the shoulders down. Moving into production, the permanent fix will spec these low-profile bolts and deepen the counterbore in the connecting rod cap to effectively countersink the bolt heads further into the cap and eliminate any potential of contact with the oil pan.

Finally, we had a minor issue with balancing the connecting rods. Due to the fact we were evaluating prototype parts at this stage, we logically authorized only a limited number of connecting rods, primarily to confirm fitment. However, this also impacted our ability to group rods of similar weights which is the normal practice when larger quantity of rods are batched produced.

We installed them with no noticeable effect, but with the goal of full disclosure, we wanted to mention it. John also brought it to the attention of the factory and they assured us that when we proceed to full production and manufacturing rods in greater quantities, this issue will self-correct as a result of the ability to more closely group rods of nearly equivalent weights.

Also, given this issue, it is worth mentioning the potentially beneficial impact of the new crankshaft design. As most are aware, the counterweights on the new crankshaft incorporate significantly more mass than the stock design. The shaft diameter and supporting main bearing sizes were also increased by 33%. The goal of these modifications was to both deliver torque and power more smoothly, but also reduce the stress impacts recognized with the original 3-main design and the maintenance requirements extending from them.

The build process was finished by installing the stock engine covers and pans. A 6:1 compression head was used for testing and a stock oil pump. Toward the end of day four, we transferred the engine to a test stand and started it for the first time. Over the next two hours we ran the engine at moderate speeds to confirm the absence of unexpected noises or anything else that would have sensibly caused us to stop the testing process for further investigation. Basic operating conditions like oil and water circulation and temperatures, and timing, were within normal standards of stock Model A engines.

Initially we had installed a stock oil pump and ran 10w-40 oil but following the warmup of the engine observed minimal oil pressure readings on the pump and return gauges. The next day we installed a modified stock pump (increased inlet port and galley), 20w-50 oil and inspected the used oil for any noticeable signs of wear, which we found none. The oil and pump change raised the oil pressure which was recorded regularly while the engine was being run on the test stand.


Run Testing

Following the pump and oil change, the engine was run on the test stand for six hours at 3,100 RPM, roughly the equivalent of 70 to 75 miles per hour in Model A. Temperatures and oil pressures were recorded regularly during this period. Oil pressure at the pump was approximately 8 psi and 5 psi on return. Oil temperature in the sump reached 275 degrees and averaged 263 degrees. Water temperature at the # 4 cylinder reached a high of just over 200 degrees, but on average was approximately 190 degrees while running the engine at this speed.

A link to a brief video of the engine running at 3,100 rpm is included. Please note that the sensitivity of the microphone was reduced in the early part of the recording which might leave the impression that the engine operation was very quiet. Later in the video the external mic was changed, and the actual volume recorded. As could be expected, running at 3,100 RPM’s is quite loud, evidenced by the fact we were all wearing hearing protection.

We would also note that other than running the engine for two hour prior to this phase of testing, there had been no other “break-in” period. Overall, we were pleased with the engine’s operation at this speed and feel confident of its capacity to sustain higher temperatures and stresses associated with running at this speed.

The following day we ran the engine for four hours, but more moderately at 2,100 RPM’s to approximate normal driving conditions. The engine ran smoothly during the entire period. Oil temperatures averaged 180 degrees, the water temperature at cylinder 4 averaged 168 degrees, and oil pressure at the pump and return averaged 4 psi.

Later that day the engine was transferred from the test stand and installed into a vehicle to further evaluate its operation in real-world conditions. Installation was completed late in the day, but we had the opportunity to take it for a brief drive. Impressions were promising. Power delivery was smooth and torque was noticeably available at the lower range of RPM’s.


Hill / Stress Testing

During the final day of testing, the engine was run up a five-mile course with an average grade of about 6.5 percent. Total elevation gain was approximately 1,700 feet. We recorded the climb using both drone and dashcams. A link to the video footage is included.

Other than stopping briefly during the ascent to allow for the drone operator to move to his next line of sight, the engine was run continually and as fast as safely possible given the narrower road and switchback conditions. We did not record average speeds, but regularly observed speeds in excess of 35 miles per hour while climbing with no notable strain on the engine.

Overall, we were satisfied with all aspects of the run testing and feel very confident of the engine’s design integrity and long-term performance.


Next Steps

During the evaluation process we were actively communicating the adjustments needed in the tooling process to the factory to address the fitment issues we identified during the build process. We are already receiving revised drawings and will confirm with them that all of the needed modifications are properly implemented. We expect to complete this work by the end of October, at which time we will authorize production.

The factory is estimating it will take them 90 days to deliver blocks to the US once production is authorized. As a result, we expect to be in a position to deliver blocks to customers around the end of January or early February 2021.

Depending on the distribution of demand, we will warehouse the blocks regionally to minimize the delivery time to end customers and any incremental delivery costs.

During the first 60 days, the block kit, including crankshaft and connecting rods, small parts (cam bearings, thrust washers, oil galley plugs etc.) and a “Builder’s Guide” will be offered to buyers directly at a discounted cost of $3,500. Following the initial offering period cost will be $3,900 and the availability through parts distributors and engine builders.

For those that are interested, we will be following up shortly with pre-order details and delivery details.

In the interim, please contact us with any questions you have.


Bill Percival


Link to picture, video & test data files:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/at89mx8bt...j-WMblVVa?dl=0

Last edited by wrpercival; 09-27-2020 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:05 PM   #168
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Wow! Great work guys! This is awesome news, and thank you for the very detailed reviews, pictures and videos! Even the suspenseful music during the hillclimb portion!

I will be showing this to my customers that are anticipating the arrival of this engine just as I am.

Thank you again!
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:25 PM   #169
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Very nice.

A few questions - and my apologies if I missed this in the messages -

1. I was surprised that the oil pressure was not higher.. like in the 30psi range. Was the low pressure expected and is there any reason why it isn't higher ?

2. Is the oil pan baffle / dipper tray still part of the pan assembly, or eliminated in the new build?

3. Without the connecting rod dippers creating an oil torrent, how do the cylinder walls get adequate lubrication.

Thank You
George
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Old 09-27-2020, 10:47 PM   #170
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

CONGRADULATIONS to Terry and all who are involved in this project.

It appears that this was a well thought out project and will allow our hobby to continue with a great new source for quality new improved engine components at an affordable price.

Thanks for all the hard work and also, the video of the test run up the mountain was great.

Chris W.
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:35 AM   #171
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

A great job! Congrats to all involved! What a great way to celebrate your birthday Terry! Fully oil pressurized and no leaks, how about that. A stout bottom end to handle any modifications. Nice hill climb too!
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:23 AM   #172
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Smile Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRutter View Post
Very nice.

A few questions - and my apologies if I missed this in the messages -

1. I was surprised that the oil pressure was not higher.. like in the 30psi range. Was the low pressure expected and is there any reason why it isn't higher ?

2. Is the oil pan baffle / dipper tray still part of the pan assembly, or eliminated in the new build?

3. Without the connecting rod dippers creating an oil torrent, how do the cylinder walls get adequate lubrication.

Thank You
George
Good questions. And great to see the progress that has been made during these unpresented times. This project is challenging enough without all this additional issues related to the pandemic...........

I see several types of oil pumps laying on the assembly table, but appears to be stock looking pump (externally) on the one mounted to the motor. According to Terry's posting it says stock pump was used in initial test, so appears oil would be able to pass into valve chamber past the two slots in the upper end of the oil pump. second test had modified pump according to the post with enlarged oil inlet and reduced pump shaft? diameter, and maybe still had the two open slots to allow full passage of oil into valve chamber?

In saying that, I see the opening on the return pipe from the valve chamber has one opening rather then the normal three openings and the single hole is reduced in size from the original. So if they had dipper tray installed it appear maybe expectation for less oil returning from valve chamber and majority of the oil returning through the main and rod bearings directly into the pan and centrifugal force throwing oil onto the piston bores and camshaft lobes?

I would have imagined after the testing they have disassembled and re-inspected major and minor wear surfaces to determine any unusual wear points.

I like the provision for dowel pins on all the main bearing mounting of the caps.

Are the bearing caps steel or Cast iron?

I see that front and centre mains are using bolts and nuts per original design. and appears #2 #4 and rear main bearings are using studs, so minor deviation on the rear main.

I would be curious to know how well the new rear main seal performed during the testing?

This initial flywheel appears to be cast iron, is this correct? and clutch mounting is for 9" clutch? Did the initial flywheel come in close to the anticipated 22 pound weight?

Looking forward to being able to place my order in the near future...
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:35 AM   #173
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Very nice.
A few questions - and my apologies if I missed this in the messages -
1. I was surprised that the oil pressure was not higher.. like in the 30psi range. Was the low pressure expected and is there any reason why it isn't higher ?
2. Is the oil pan baffle / dipper tray still part of the pan assembly, or eliminated in the new build?
3. Without the connecting rod dippers creating an oil torrent, how do the cylinder walls get adequate lubrication.
Thank You George





Good questions. And great to see the progress that has been made during these unpresented times. This project is challenging enough without all this additional issues related to the pandemic...........

I see several types of oil pumps laying on the assembly table, but appears to be stock looking pump (externally) on the one mounted to the motor. According to Terry's posting it says stock pump was used in initial test, so appears oil would be able to pass into valve chamber past the two slots in the upper end of the oil pump. second test had modified pump according to the post with enlarged oil inlet and reduced pump shaft? diameter, and maybe still had the two open slots to allow full passage of oil into valve chamber?

In saying that, I see the opening on the return pipe from the valve chamber has one opening rather then the normal three openings and the single hole is reduced in size from the original. So if they had dipper tray installed it appear maybe expectation for less oil returning from valve chamber and majority of the oil returning through the main and rod bearings directly into the pan and centrifugal force throwing oil onto the piston bores and camshaft lobes?

I would have imagined after the testing they have disassembled and re-inspected major and minor wear surfaces to determine any unusual wear points.

I like the provision for dowel pins on all the main bearing mounting of the caps.

Are the bearing caps steel or Cast iron?

I see that front and centre mains are using bolts and nuts per original design. and appears #2 #4 and rear main bearings are using studs, so minor deviation on the rear main.

I would be curious to know how well the new rear main seal performed during the testing?

This initial flywheel appears to be cast iron, is this correct? and clutch mounting is for 9" clutch? Did the initial flywheel come in close to the anticipated 22 pound weight?

Looking forward to being able to place my order in the near future.. 4bangerbob




I was also disappointed with the low oil pressure. We had 3 people verifying tolerances, measuring clearances, and assembling the engine simultaneously. The third party assembly and evaluation time allocation was very short and there were only so many things that we could try.

There was no oil pressure with a stock pump, so we changed to a modified stock oil pump and got minimal oil pressure. We had a Stipe pump on hand, but didn't use it because the outlet would need modification by an outside machine shop for use in a stock appearing engine.

On a stock engine with a drilled crankshaft and modified for oil pressure, there are 7 (3 crankshaft and 4 connecting) bearings that leak oil on both sides for a total of 14 leakage paths. The new engine with 14 pressurized bearings has 28 leakage paths, and the factory in China said that the replaceable cam bearings were slightly oversize.

Based on the above, I made the decision to proceed with minimal oil pressure and all testing was completed.

Yesterday during engine teardown, I discovered a missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew that should have plugged a blind oil passage to the main oil galley. This missing setscrew was not in the oil pan, so it was never installed. The attached picture shows a 5/16 inch drill sticking out of the hole where pressure was lost.

The side return pipe is for decoration only and the dipper tray was in place to minimize oil slosh that would starve the oil pump.

All main caps are malleable iron.

Main bearings 1 and 3 use long studs with castellated nuts to appear original. All other main caps are secured with coarse studs in the cylinder block and fine threads for the nuts.

The rear seal is an off the shelf item made by National and similar to the seal in a rear hub. The seal did not leak.

The flywheel used was a prototype and machined from steel. Weight was 30 pounds without ring gear. 9 inch clutch is correct and production flywheels will be grey cast iron. The 22 pound flywheel had a bell made from 356 aluminum and is expensive to manufacture. The flywheel is not a part of the new engine but will be available separately.
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:47 AM   #174
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Here is a picture of the oil passage that had the missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug.
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:29 PM   #175
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Have you seen the oil pumps made by Turlock Machine? All Small Block Chevy gears in a custom made body that bolts into a Model A. Lots of flow.
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Old 09-29-2020, 01:10 PM   #176
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Wow, I'm impressed that the pump even made the pressure that it did with an open 3/8" port back to tank. I look forward to seeing the oil pressure numbers with that passage blocked off.
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Old 09-29-2020, 01:21 PM   #177
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Here is a picture of the oil passage that had the missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug.
Terry thanks for the information. With missing a 3/8" plug I am surprised as well that you were able to get the pressure that you did.

Another question if I can. If oil return tube from valve chamber is cosmetic, is there a regulated port for oil to come into the valve chamber to lubricate the lifters from above, or are you solely relying on oil being splashed onto the cam and lifters off the crankshaft?
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Old 09-29-2020, 02:06 PM   #178
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I also was surprised to see the low oil pressure.

The 3/8ths plug missing explains why.

We had just the opposite problem.

We built a full pressure, drilled B block in 1976 with oil system mods to oil galley on side cover following Dan Iandola's Rod and Custom article.

Stock B Oil pump was opened up following Dan's directions. Shaft was turned also because we used a Model A shaft.

On first fire up the 3/8 inch thick aluminum side cover blew the gasket and oil dumped out on ground.

After adding a number of 10 32 cap screws between each cover bolt it held the gasket at idle.

Oil pressure was 100+ PSI with engine at above idle. I do not remember the RPM.

The camshaft moved in/out also!

After welding a pressure bypass valve cut from a V8 oil pump to the side of Model A oil pump we got it down to 30 or 35 lbs.

Last edited by Benson; 10-01-2020 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 09-29-2020, 07:31 PM   #179
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

I was also wondering about the oil pressure.

I bet you were glad to find the open oil passage. A modified A Pump should be perfectly capable of providing good oil pressure. I am sure you will need a pressure relief valve of some sort to keep from over pressuring the system when the engine is cold.

Chris W.
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:08 PM   #180
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,

I was in Heaven when I found the cause of low oil pressure to be a forgotten setscrew that opened the main oil galley to an 8 mm (5/16 inch) hole.

I have a pressurized Model B engine that I built in 1976, so I have an idea of what oil pressure should be.

We are trying to keep costs to a minimum for buyers and that is why a modified Model A oil pump was the second pump tried.

Modifications to the stock Model A oil pump used includes doubling the area of all oil passages and the addition of a 40 PSI relief valve on the side of the oil pump at a location above the dipper tray.

A picture of the modified pump is shown in post 174. The brass cylindrical object is the relief valve available from McMaster Carr.

Terry Burtz
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:46 PM   #181
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry

Good news. I was disappointed with the lower oil pressure and need to go to 20w-50 oil.

Are there any concerns regarding cylinder wall lubrication without the dippers, or do the rod caps extend into the tray ?

Do you have plans to reassemble and run additional testing now that the problem appears to have been found? Did you do another oil analysis after running at that low pressure ?
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Old 09-30-2020, 04:06 AM   #182
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Is the relief valve one of these?

https://www.mcmaster.com/4772K4/
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:54 AM   #183
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, I have a few questions.
1. How does the valve chamber get adequate lubrication to the valve stems and top of the lifters?
2. Earlier you mentioned the valve kit from AER was used with pressed in valve guides. Were the pistons from AER also used? If not is there any reason why not? I have them in an engine that I’m am currently running and am very happy with them. They hold good compression and have the thinner later style rings like a small block Chevy, your crankshaft bearings also fit a small block Chevy.
3. I noticed a seal installation tool for the rear main crankshaft seals in photo 2020-09-11 09.46.28-1.jpg. Will that be included in the kit?
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Old 09-30-2020, 04:07 PM   #184
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry
Good news. I was disappointed with the lower oil pressure and need to go to 20w-50 oil.
Are there any concerns regarding cylinder wall lubrication without the dippers, or do the rod caps extend into the tray ?
Do you have plans to reassemble and run additional testing now that the problem appears to have been found? Did you do another oil analysis after running at that low pressure ?
GRutter


Our break-in of the new engine was brutal. We assembled it and broke it in by running it at 3100 RPM (75 MPH) for 6 hours straight. With the low oil pressure, we were curious to see what would come out when we drained the oil. The drained oil was dark and we filtered it to see if there were any particles. There were no particles and I attribute the darkness to the fact that oil temperature was in the 260 degree Fahrenheit range for the full 6 hours. In an effort to get a little more oil pressure, the crankcase was refilled with O'Reilly 20w-50 oil.

The connecting rods have reinforcing ribs that extend the same amount as the rod dippers on a stock engine. The dipper tray was in place, so splash lubrication to the cylinder walls and wrist pin proved to be adequate.

No additional testing is planned. The missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug was the cause of low oil pressure. The only oil analysis performed was to look at the color and strain for particles. Both the 10w-40 and 10w-50 oil darkened, but no visible particles were found.




Is the relief valve one of these?
https://www.mcmaster.com/4772K4/
Bruce

The relief valve is a modified McMaster Carr item 4772K65, 40 PSI. The modification was to rethread the shank from 3/8-18 NPT to 1/8-27 NPT. The 4772K6 series of valves have a much larger relief orifice than the 4772K4 series. The relief valve never relieved anything because of the missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew.




Terry, I have a few questions.
1. How does the valve chamber get adequate lubrication to the valve stems and top of the lifters?
2. Earlier you mentioned the valve kit from AER was used with pressed in valve guides. Were the pistons from AER also used? If not is there any reason why not? I have them in an engine that I’m am currently running and am very happy with them. They hold good compression and have the thinner later style rings like a small block Chevy, your crankshaft bearings also fit a small block Chevy.
3. I noticed a seal installation tool for the rear main crankshaft seals in photo 2020-09-11 09.46.28-1.jpg. Will that be included in the kit?
Dennis


1) The valve chamber has 4 circular windows in the floor that allow splash and oil mist to enter for lubrication. These windows proved to be adequate, however a purchaser could enlarge them.
2) The valve kit was from AER and used pressed in guides. They were chosen and installed before we arrived at the 3rd party evaluator. The pistons used were Egge and they used the modern narrow rings (Hastings ring set 745). All interfaces on the new engine are identical to original Ford, so the choice of parts is up to the engine builder. Everything on the new engine fit together without any fitting. The valves were hand lapped with a "Hand Valve Grinder" (NAPA SER501) which is a wooden stick with a suction cup on each end, and the pistons and rings fit without honing or filing. All bearings were Plastigaged and the clearance was .002 inch.
3) The seal installation tool was made from a PVC pipe fitting that I bought at Home Depot. It will not be provided with the kit of engine parts. If the seal is bottomed out against the shoulder, it is square with the seal rubbing surface. The seal cavity is 1 inch deep and can accommodate 2 seals. If 2 seals are used, some long life lubrication must be used between seals to lubricate the lip on the rear seal.
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Old 09-30-2020, 11:46 PM   #185
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, can you give us some details on your forthcoming flywheel?
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:00 PM   #186
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This is exciting! Who's gonna be the first to hot rod it? Interested to see what kind of power it will be able to handle
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Old 10-06-2020, 11:15 PM   #187
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ/40 View Post
Terry, can you give us some details on your forthcoming flywheel?
You may want to look at this page for info on the flywheel.

http://www.modelaengine.com/19-other-parts.html

As I understand this is in the works and may change?
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Old 10-06-2020, 11:39 PM   #188
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Since there will be 5 cam bearings, it would be a shame not to use all 5. You might look into having a batch of billet blanks available for cam grinders.
Another profit center.

Richard
Anaheim CA
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Old 10-07-2020, 10:16 AM   #189
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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You may want to look at this page for info on the flywheel.

http://www.modelaengine.com/19-other-parts.html

As I understand this is in the works and may change?
Thanks Bob. Seems a bit complex. Is there a discussion somewhere that explains the "why" of its construction? It looks like all attempts are made to eliminate any press fitting- ring gear to body, and iron surface to body. Is it balanced?
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Old 10-07-2020, 01:30 PM   #190
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Thanks Bob. Seems a bit complex. Is there a discussion somewhere that explains the "why" of its construction? It looks like all attempts are made to eliminate any press fitting- ring gear to body, and iron surface to body. Is it balanced?
from the picture shown is appear the construction is such that there is a cast iron disk that is bolted to the main aluminium flywheel using socket head cap screws. I appears in the photo that the cast iron disk extends down to encompass the piolet bearing and mounting flange to the crankshaft. The ring gear is bolted onto the aluminium body, rather then shrunk on?

But the design may well have been revised since the photo was published.

would it be balanced?, I would certainly hope so, The crank and rods are all balanced at the factory from accounted published to date.

I am sure Terry can clarify.
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Old 10-08-2020, 11:39 PM   #191
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, can you give us some details on your forthcoming flywheel? Russ

You may want to look at this page for info on the flywheel.
http://www.modelaengine.com/19-other-parts.html
As I understand this is in the works and may change? 4bangerbob

Thanks Bob. Seems a bit complex. Is there a discussion somewhere that explains the "why" of its construction? It looks like all attempts are made to eliminate any press fitting- ring gear to body, and iron surface to body. Is it balanced? Russ

from the picture shown is appear the construction is such that there is a cast iron disk that is bolted to the main aluminium flywheel using socket head cap screws. I appears in the photo that the cast iron disk extends down to encompass the piolet bearing and mounting flange to the crankshaft. The ring gear is bolted onto the aluminium body, rather then shrunk on?
But the design may well have been revised since the photo was published.
would it be balanced?, I would certainly hope so, The crank and rods are all balanced at the factory from accounted published to date.
I am sure Terry can clarify. 4bangerbob




4bangerbob, you are correct in the description of the flywheel shown in the picture.

Weight of a flywheel means little. What is important is the "polar moment of inertia". The polar moment of inertia is an engineering quantity that takes weight and location into consideration. If the weight of a shaft is concentrated at the center of rotation, it has low inertia and is easy to accelerate. If the same weight is far from the center of rotation, it has high inertia and takes more effort to accelerate. 55 years ago, my job while in college was to calculate the mass properties including polar moments of inertia for the Mayall telescope on Kitt Peak, AZ.

I machined a few 22 pound flywheels like the picture and they were a lot of work. The center and friction surface were machined from a Model A flywheel, and the "bell" to support the ring gear was machined from cast 356 aluminum.
Press fits are difficult to guarantee because aluminum expands or contracts 3 times what steel or iron does during the same temperature change.
Although all parts were a press fit at room temperature, my conscience and fear of something coming loose forced me into making mechanical connections.
The cut down Model A section was bolted with 12 socket head cap screws to the aluminum bell section, and the ring gear was secured with 10-32 UNF bolts and nuts.
Drilling the hardened ring gear for the 10-32 UNF bolts was a challenge, and if I were to do it again, I would have the holes plunged EDM'd.

The new flywheel shown in the videos weighs 30 pounds without the ring gear. It was an engineering sample and machined from steel. Production flywheels will be identical, but made from grey iron.
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Old 10-28-2020, 04:06 PM   #192
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Updates regarding the "New Engine " project are posted to online forums and an Email list of people that are interested but not active on online forums. The following Email was sent to my contacts and after the Email, there were comments, questions, and answers. Last names have been omitted to maintain privacy.

To All,
It has come to my attention that many people on my Email list are not involved with online social groups. This Email is a summary of the test results and is being sent to those on my Email list and will also be posted on online forums.
We were on a very tight schedule at the 3rd party evaluator to assemble the engine, check for clearances, run it on a test stand, and install it in a car for a hill climb.
After the new Model A engine was assembled with a stock oil pump (for a baseline), filled with 10w-30 oil and started, there was no oil pressure, so we pulled the pan and installed a modified Model A oil pump that was machined to increase the volume by doubling the area of all oil passages. We had a Stipe oil pump on hand, but didn't use it because the pump outlet would have needed modification by an outside machine shop for use in a stock appearing engine without an oil filter.
When the new engine was started with the modified Model A oil pump, we had oil pressure but it was much lower than expected.
Oil pressure was measured at the output of the oil pump, and at the end of the main oil galley.
I was disappointed with the low oil pressure. The new engine has 15 bearings (5 main, 4 connecting rod, 5 camshaft, and rear thrust) that are pressure-lubricated, so there are 29 places for oil to leak which reduces pressure. Since we had some oil pressure at the end of the main oil galley and there were no bad sounds, I made the decision to continue testing.
The first test after assembly was break-in. Instead of driving easy for the first 1000 miles, we broke the engine in hard by running it at 3100 RPM for 6 hours. 3100 RPM is equivalent to 75 MPH without overdrive. During this test, oil temperature was above 260 degrees F, but we still had minimal oil pressure.
After this test, we drained the oil and strained it through a clean rag to look for particles. The oil was dark, but there were no particles.
The next day, the oil was replaced with O'Reilly 20w-50 oil in an effort to gain oil pressure and we ran the engine at 2000 RPM for 4 hours. During this test, the head temperature reached 260 degrees F when we accidentally ran it out of water.
The final test was to install the new engine in a car for a hill climb of 1700 feet elevation gain in 5 miles.
After the hill climb, the engine was removed from the car and shipped to me for disassembly and examination.
I removed the oil pan and found that a 3/8-16 UNC setscrew oil plug was missing. This missing 3/8 inch plug vented the main oil galley directly to the crankcase.
Further disassembly showed no signs of excessive wear on the bearings or any other parts despite the low oil pressure and overheating when we accidentally ran it out of water.
During engine assembly, we found a few minor things that need to be changed to provide a better product. These changes have resulted in drawing changes for the production run.
We are working on a website to take orders and deposits, a "Builders Guide", and several other things.
We have placed an order with the factory in China and are in the queue to receive parts near the end of January 2021.
We have committed to present the new engine in a seminar at the MARC membership meet in Bay City, MI on April 9, 2021.

Terry,
Congrats on a successful test program! Thanks for the update. I am one of those that does not participate on the common social media.
The absence of the plug during the test is just one of those little things that can bite you, fortunately, the tests went well in spite of that problem. I recall working on a 1941 V12 Lincoln Continental for a friend. I believe that even when new the oil pressure was really low.
Bill


Bill,
The new engine has 19 drilled oil passages in the cylinder block and several need plugs.
Engine assembly at the 3rd party evaluator without a checklist was very hectic, like having Larry, Moe, and Curley putting it together. We received the setscrew plugs from the manufacturer in a small plastic bag and used them all. Unfortunately, our specification to the manufacturer was one setscrew short.
I'm happy that the engine survived with low oil pressure and feel confident that it will handle most any abuse a new owner could dish out.
Terry


Hi Terry,

Thanks for the oil filter information.

I would be using a Bill Stipe high volume oil pump, will you be able to tell me what I would need to be block off to get the oil to exit out of the block side? This exit hole I would increase to

1 / 4 NPT to get more volume out.

The drilling and tapping of the lower bolt of the timing cover inspection bolt for the oil return concerns me as the hole in the bolt would be quite small? Is there any where else in the block that could be drilled and tapped to 1 / 4 NPT to get more volume back to pressurise the engine.

As I have mentioned before our Model A Club president Dean Roberts has been communicating with one of your people and he is intending to get an order into you in the coming weeks for a quantity of engines, he currently investigating shipping options, he also brings goods from China and USA for his own business so he has some very good contacts.

Regards Peter



Peter,
I just finished writing the oil filter section for the "Builders Guide" that will come with every set of new engine parts.
The oil filter information in my Oct 19 Email reply to you has changed.
Pasted below is my latest revision of the "Builders Guide" section that addresses the use of an oil filter. The "Builders Guide" will have pictures to make things easier to understand.
I'm happy to see those in Australia getting together to save on shipping and Customs fees.

Oil Filter System

The new engine pressurized oil system has been designed to accommodate an optional external oil filter. There is an exit hole for dirty oil and an entrance hole for returning clean oil.



To plumb for an oil filter, all oil from the oil pump must be routed to exit at the side of the cylinder block. If using a modified stock Model A Ford oil pump, the oil passages at the top of the pump must be blocked and the 8 mm (5/16 inch) horizontal passage behind the 1/8-27 NPT plug must be blocked.



If using a Stipe or similar oil pump, there is no need to block oil passages in the cylinder block.



The 1/8-27 NPT cylinder block threads where the oil will exit need to be enlarged to 1/4-18 NPT.



Oil is routed from the 1/4-18 NPT hole in the cylinder block to the dirty (inlet) side of the filter.



Clean oil exiting the oil filter returns to the main oil galley through a modification at the lower bolt that holds the timing gear side cover in place.



Enlarge the lower bolt hole in the timing gear side cover to 17/32 (.531) inch diameter.



The 7/16-14 UNC hole in the cylinder block needs to be bottom tapped for a 7/16-14 Helicoil.



Use the timing gear side cover as a guide for the tap drill and taps needed to keep the new threads perpendicular to the machined surface.



Instead of installing a Helicoil, make a special bolt to replace the stock bolt.



The special bolt needs to be made from hex stock, have a .523 inch shank diameter and 14 threads per inch. The center of the bolt needs a 21/64 (.328) inch through hole and the hex end needs to be threaded for a 1/4-18 NPT fitting.



In the cylinder block behind the special bolt, there are 8 mm (5/16 inch) oil passages that will return the clean oil to the main oil galley.



If an owner wishes to remove the oil filter, the 1/4-18 NPT hole in the cylinder block can be changed back to 1/8-27 NPT by using a 1/4 NPT male x 1/8 NPT female bushing (McMaster Carr part 44605K256) and the timing gear side cover bolt threads can be changed back by installing a 7/16 UNC Helicoil.




Thanks Terry,

I have been getting your emails.

I currently run a Model B fully pressurised motor fitted with a Stipe high volume oil pump. I don’t know if you are familiar with the B engine but they have pressurise Main & cam bearings from factory, fed from a small section of the side plate. What I did was drill the crank through the webbing to conrod journals. The oil holes to the cam bearing were approximately 3/16th of an inch I jetted these down to 1/16th, then I left the 3/16th holes to the mains & now conrods, I also jetted down the oil supply to the back of the timing gear to 1/8th.

With this engine I have now done 20,000 miles, I use 20-60 oil and hot at 45mph the oil pressure sits on 25 to 30PSI, at idle around 5psi.

Terry just thought that some of this may help you with oil pressure issues.

Regards Peter





Peter,
I built my first pressurized Model B engine in 1976 and have similar oil pressure readings.
You are lucky to have 20w-60 oil in Australia. 20w-50 is common in the USA. We can buy 10w-60, but it is expensive.
The missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew was definitely the cause of low oil pressure.
I'm happy that the engine survived with low oil pressure and feel confident that it will handle most any abuse a new owner could dish out.
From your Email address, I see that you are from Australia.
Please contact Dean XXXX if you are interested in buying one of the new engines. We want to ship directly from China to Australia by container to save on shipping and Customs costs.



Question: Can you supply this engine as an assembled short block (complete with rods & pistons, pan, cam, and timing cover) and give me an idea as to what it could cost? I would install the intake, exhaust, head and ignition. (I want to keep the pan and timing cover on the engine I have)
Thank you, Mike

Mike,
The answer is no because of packaging and there are too many variables.
The parts from China will be in wooden boxes that are ready to ship to customers.
We cannot build a short block because we have no idea what pistons, rings, valves, guides, camshaft, timing gears, and all other parts that you want to use in the short block.
Every parts kit will come with a "Builders Guide" so any competent automotive shop should be able to assemble the short block.
We are working on a website that describes the new engine and has a section for orders and deposits.
After we have parts in the USA and for sale, we will offer the parts kit (new 5 main cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods) at the introductory price of $3500. This cost is equal to the cost of a quality rebuild.
The introductory price will only be offered for 60 days and after that, we will be selling to dealers in minimum quantities of 5.


Terry
If the crank and cam bearings and surfaces should not wear or contact marks you may be okay. However, you have no history from a car being driven in normal daily driving for an extended period and that, in my mind, would cause me to pause regarding purchasing and engine from you. Take pictures of the bottom end for display purposes until your next engine arrives but put the present one on the road for real life testing.
Dan

Dan,
Thanks for your comments.
In order to avoid a prolonged test period, we subjected the new engine to more abuse and higher stresses than it would ever receive under normal driving conditions.
If there was a weak link in the design, it would have shown up during the test where without any break-in, we started the engine and ran it at 3100 RPM for 6 hours straight which is the equivalent of 75 MPH without overdrive.
Would you buy a modern car off the showroom floor and drive it this way?
Some destructive tests are planned. The connecting rods were torqued to 35 lb-ft with 170 KSI bolts. We will take a couple of connecting rods and apply torque until the bolt, connecting rod, or drive socket fails.
Even with low oil pressure because we failed to install a 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug that vented the main oil galley, oil that was hotter than 260 degrees F, and 3100 RPM for 6 hours, nothing broke or showed unusual signs of wear, so we are confident to go into production.
The only downside to missing the 60-day window is that you will pay for dealer markup and additional shipping.



I'm on the list for one of the first engines, I hope. Maybe I could drive it from CA to Mi for your presentation��.
Question: With the larger main bearings will the A pan fit without modifications, B pan? What rear seal is used, yours?
Richard

Yes, you will receive one of the first engines.
We would be honored if you were able to drive from CA to MI to the MARC meet.
Everything fits within the confines of original Model A parts. The new engine uses a Model A oil pan and the pan does not need to be modified.
The rear main seal used is a National 415035 which fits a 4.000-inch shaft, has an OD of 4.999 inches, and a thickness of .468 inch. Do an eBay search on "National 415035" and you will see pictures of actual seals. I just bought one for $14 and that included postage.



Terry,
Very nicely done! I do have a couple of questions:
1) The cam being used in the article appears to be new, is it? I'm just curious, not looking for any business, don't want any.
2) I'm a little concerned about the oil pressure being that low. As a racer I've always gone by the rule of thumb that 10 lbs. per 1,000 RPM is needed. I only run about 35 lbs. in my street engines, 5-8 lbs. seems a bit low.
3) It appears that only 1/8" pipe is being used for the oil filter, and it is only capable of being partial flow. Not that this is a problem, just asking. Also appears that the side cover may need to be modified to plumb the filter???
4) So, are you making new oil pumps? Or using an original pump?
5) You hi-lited the area where you encountered assembly problems with the cam, but I didn't really see where it would have been a problem.
6) How much does the new flywheel weigh, and what clutch is it drilled for? 9" early Ford? On the last couple of engines I have built, I put in a diaphragm clutch, much smoother than the early Ford clutch.
I didn't think you would actually be able to offer the block and kit for that low of a price, congratulations on being able to do so! Put me on your buyers list.
I love your "test-hill", where is it located? Again, just curious.
Thanks, Jim

Jim,
Thanks for the comments.
1)The cam is a new 5 bearing Stipe 330 cam.
2)The oil pressure was low because a 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug was accidentally not installed and it was an open hole in the main oil galley.
3)We didn't have time at the 3rd party evaluator to do anything with an oil filter. I agree that a 1/8-27 NPT fitting is too small to get adequate flow through an oil filter.
4)To keep prices reasonable, a modified Model A oil pump was used. Every passage in the modified pump had twice the area for increased flow.
5)The #4 crankcase web was slightly too wide and was barely hit by the crankshaft counterweight. We solved the problem with a little die grinding on the web. The factory in China already has the change request.
6)The flywheel is 30 pounds without the ring gear and is drilled for the Ford 9-inch pressure plate.
The good price is due to the negotiating skills of our production and quality assurance manager, John Lampl. John also has WW2 Jeep cylinder blocks and many other parts manufactured in China.
I can't disclose where the "test-hill" is out of respect for our 3rd party evaluator. If I were to reveal where testing took place, our 3rd party evaluator would possibly be inundated with phone calls and that would impact his business.
Terry



Dear Terry,
I’m interested in one of your engines. When will you do some Dyno testing at different levels of performance so that I can see what type of power the engine develops?
I have a 1928 model A roadster that I’ve had since I was 13 in 1957. I won first place at the Model A Restorers Club in 1974 and after that rebuilt the engine with Miller overhead valve head. Also I added an overdrive.
Five years ago I bought an original 1931 A400. I used a B block with the later model reproduction miller overhead valve head. The builder figures the engine produces about 110 hp. I have a four-speed Chevrolet S 10 transmission in it plus air-conditioning.
I’ve been following your progress for several years and pulling for you! Good work!
Knox


Knox,
We do not plan on doing any Dyno testing.
Our goal is to build an engine that looks like a stock Model A engine from the outside but has 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and 5 cam bearings. Both the rod and main bearings are 2-inch diameter and use an insert that was used from 1955 to 2003 in various General Motors engines.
The horsepower developed will depend on your choice of head, manifolds, carburetion, camshaft, ignition, and everything else need to complete an engine.
We are only supplying a 5 main cylinder block, 5 main crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods.
Terry



Hello,
spectacular job boys.
A couple of questions. Your set of rods look very nice but since you engineered a new crank why didn't you engineer in rods that are available over the counter and why not aluminum?
Do you think that your oil temp is high? Is there a way to add a cooler of some type even a cooler as used with automatic transmissions?
A lot of modern engines now have a squirter hole on top of the rod big end that squirts oil up under the piston head. Cooling is what I hear. Does that have any value in this application? Then you may be actually raising the oil temp with this?
In a rodded/banger version of this what would you suspect the top RPM would be? 3400 at 70 sustained is excellent.
Bob

Bob,
Thanks for the questions and comments.
There are no "over the counter" rods that are the same length. have the same wrist pin diameter, and take a 2-inch big end insert bearing. The rods also have a unique parting line that is necessary to clear the camshaft.
Aluminum rod material was not considered because it expands 3 times more than steel for the same temperature change. 6Al4v Titanium or beryllium would be my choice of material if cost were no problem.
The oil temperature was higher than expected. There was no cool air passing by the oil pan as would be if the engine was in a car. The engine in a car also wouldn't be run at 3100 RPM (75 MPH without overdrive) for any length of time. Yes, a cooler in line with an oil filter could be utilized.
Our brutal break-in of the engine confirmed that there was enough oil splash, flung, and mist to lubricate the cylinder walls, valve stems, lifters, and wrist pins.
From a finite element analysis of the connecting rods, they were lightly stressed at 5500 RPM while making 150 HP. Peak load is at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke where the connecting rod needs to stop and reverse the direction of the piston.
Terry



Hey Terry,
I am impressed by YOU and your creation !! Your rapid progress is impressive, indeed !
I want one for my antique cast iron Riley 4 port !
It has patiently sat in storage for a long while.....waiting on your creation !
Richard

Rich,
Thanks for your comments.
I'm so grateful to have made the connection with John Lampl who has Jeep 4-cylinder blocks manufactured in China.
The new Model A engine parts with 5 main bearings and 4 connecting rods all being 2 inches in diameter should provide reliability for any OHV head.
Engineering and testing are complete and parts are anticipated to be for sale in early 2021.
Terry



Hi Terry
thank you for the follow ups. In spite of the deficiencies ( e.g. missing oil plug) it still sounds good to me. In fact, that it held up with low oil pressure is a plus. Imagine it with a Stipe pump or other high output pump. I would like to be on the list for potential buyers. Just let me know when its time

Pat

Pat,
The missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew was definitely the cause of low oil pressure.
The new engine has 19 drilled oil passages in the cylinder block and several need plugs.
Engine assembly at the 3rd party evaluator without a checklist was rushed and very hectic, like having Larry, Moe, and Curley putting it together. We received the setscrew plugs from the manufacturer in a small plastic bag and used them all. Unfortunately, our specification to the manufacturer was one setscrew short.
I'm happy that the engine survived with low oil pressure and feel confident that it will handle most any abuse a new owner could dish out.
We are building a website that describes the project and will have a place for orders.



Hello Terry,
Thank you for the reply. What was the torque on the test engine at 3100 rpm and 2100 rpm? Thx
Regards, Wes
Wes,
We did not run on a dynamometer.
We are building new strong parts to replace the frail original parts.
Torque and horsepower will depend on your choice of head, carburetion, camshaft, etc.
Terry



Hi Terry and friends

my friend and myself are very interested to have those Model A Engines, as our Blocks (and those of our friends)

are in very bad conditions , and lightly rusted !

not surprising after more than 90 Years !!

please let mo know a.s.a.p. the Pre-Order will be opened

Questions :

If I order three (or more) Blocks , come those completed with Crankshaft/Bearings/Conrods etc

installed, or all parts lose ?

Are the Crankshaft/Bearings matched and controlled by Plastigage before shipped ?

Does the Bore of all four Cylinders have the standard Diameter ?

Do you also supply the modified lightened Flywheel ?

If yes, is the Crankshaft with the Flywheel balanced (on Bench) ?

Do you know the weight of one complet Block/Crankshaft/Conrods/Bearings/Seals/Flywheel

to estimate the shipping costes ?

Pls. Offer price for three (or more) cpl. Blocks

Thank you

Peter


Peter,
We are working on a website to take orders and deposits.
All parts are loose (packed separately to avoid damage).
The parts have very close tolerances and are verified before leaving the factory. We used Plastigage during assembly and found that all bearing clearances were .002 inch. John Lampl is our production and quality assurance manager and he will insist on quality.
The cylinder block bore has the standard diameter (3.875/3.876 inch) specified on the Ford drawing. We used Egge pistons machined to use modern narrow rings (Hastings 665), and the pistons fit the new cylinder block with .004 piston to wall clearance.
The new 30-pound flywheel will be offered as an option because many people already have a flywheel that they want to use.
The crankshaft and flywheel are dynamically balanced separately so there is no need for match marks.
I've been too busy to check weights, but my guess that the cylinder block with 5 mains, crankshaft with 8 counterweights, and larger connecting rods will be about 45 pounds heavier than stock. The new flywheel is 30 pounds without ring gear.
I'm replying to your Email along with John Lampl who is our team member that is responsible for shipping and dealing with customs. John's goal is to get the product to the customer at the lowest cost, and he has been in contact with several people in Europe.
Please contact John so that your order can be combined with others to avoid US Customs by shipping directly by container from China to Europe.
Terry


I love the concept of this new design and so does many of my friends in the Model A world I do not see any problem in marketing this engine.
I was wondering if I could start making monthly payments to help offset the money you have going out on this project even though my payment would only cover the cost of coffee and doughnuts for the month lol.
I would also like your thoughts on putting about 5 lbs. of boost from a turbocharger in this engine not to hot rod just for maintaining speed in the hills. I'm currently building a Model B with a 28 Chevrolet head, counter balanced crank and a hybrid Turbo I had built
Thank you
Steven

Steven,
Thanks for your interest in the new Model A engine.
I've added your contact information to the update list.
I'm the engineer on this project, and not involved with sales, deposits, or payments.
Finite element analysis is expensive and the connecting rod was lightly stressed at 5500 RPM while producing 200 HP.
I would love to see the new engine hot-rodded to see what it could do and see it used in airplanes and at Bonneville, however for legal reasons, I can only be legally responsible for the new engine parts when assembled as a stock engine producing 40 HP.
George Riley (http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/rileysos.htm) in 1931 did 100 MPH in a Model A with the frail original engine design.
Terry


Hi,

I’m interested in purchasing a Model A engine when available. Please let me know the process to add my name to the list. Also, I would like to be considered to provide “peer” review of the engine design, assembly, and operation. I feel I am uniquely qualified to provide valuable input. Some of my notable qualifications are:

- Degrees in Automotive Maintenance and Business Management

- ASE Certified Master Technician for 30+ years.

- Test Engineer at a major automotive manufacturer R&D Center for 25+ years.

- Own/run an Automotive Repair and Machine Shop as a part-time business.

Thank you for you time and I look forward to your response!,

Daric



Daric,
Thanks for your interest in the new Model A engine.
Your contact information has been added to the update list.
We are working on a website to take orders and deposits.
We encourage and welcome "peer" evaluations to make our product better.
We are working on a "Builders Guide" that will be updated based on "peer" experiences.
Thank you for your comments
Terry



I have a 1929 model A that over heats. I've tried a lot to bring the heat down. A new or rebuilt motor is the way I'm leaning. You some great reviews and hope you can give me a rough idea what it will cost me? Can you help?
Jack

Jack,
Thanks for your interest in the new Model A engine.
If you have an overheating problem and it's not the radiator, thermostat, or water pump sucking air, then it may be water jackets clogged with rust.
The introductory price for the new engine is $3500 which includes a new 5 main cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods. This cost is equal to the cost of a quality rebuild.
I've added you to the Email update list.
I assume that you are familiar with the design and testing. If not, look here: www.modelaengine.com

Re-Engineering the Model A Engine - New engines available early 2021 - Home
RE-ENGINEERING THE MODEL A ENGINE Terry Burtz, Campbell, CA (Copyright 2007 T. M. Burtz) Automotive engine design and analyses has changed dramatically and is vastly ...
www.modelaengine.com


Best news I have seen in a long time. I have followed Terry’s dream and efforts for many years . Good job indeed guys you have made a 77 year old Model’er very happy.
I am also ready to commit and be the first guy on the block to take delivery and not a moment too soon.
Please put me on the list to be a early purchaser of the “ Model A engine” and keep me posted with any additional or new information about the purchase time frames.
Mike

Michael,
I'm replying to your Email and sending a copy to Leonard Nettles ([email protected]) who is responsible for the list of buyers.
We expect to have new engine parts near the end of Jan 2021.
Leonard, will you please reply to Michael regarding the list.
77 years is not old. I'm 76 years old.
Terry
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Old 11-07-2020, 05:06 PM   #193
esso
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Terry
I just wonder aboat the wall thickness around the intake area compared to the original block.
Do i have more material to work with.
Going to buy one block and prepare it for racing.
Soren
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Old 11-08-2020, 11:32 PM   #194
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Soren, the short answer is no, there is no more material than stock.

The new cylinder block has an upper surface (top deck) thickness of 3/8 (.375) inch which is identical to an original cylinder block.

Port wall thickness below the top deck is a little thicker than stock at 3/16 (.1875) inch.

Although the intake valve size is stock, the intake ports are larger and more streamlined than stock.

I see that you are from Sweden. We have enough orders to send a container directly to our agent in Holland which will result in not having to pay US Customs.

Please contact me by PM or [email protected] for the agent's contact information.
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Old 11-09-2020, 07:42 AM   #195
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So are these blocks ready? How much?
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:04 PM   #196
esso
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Terry
Thanks for the fast answer. I"ve already talked to Hans i Holland(a very professional guy)
I ordered the block from him.
Best Regards
Soren
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Old 12-09-2020, 08:36 PM   #197
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello to All,

9 December 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this email without seeing the full article on the "new" Model A engine, it is available at http://www.modelaengine.com. This website also has all of the previous updates, pictures, videos, and test data.

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, suggestion, or wants to get on the email list for updates, please email [email protected]. We will add your email address to our mailing list and do our best to address any questions you may have.


New Engine

The term "new engine" is loosely used. The only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to the original Model A engine, and they have been documented from the original Ford drawings. In addition, we are making a 30 pound flywheel.




Design Verification

The new engine parts and the optional flywheel arrived in the US and were received by the 3rd-party evaluator during the first week of September 2020. We arrived a few days later for final assembly and testing.

The new engine was tested to conditions beyond expected usage to see if there were any weak points. After assembly, the new engine was brutally broken-in by running it at 3100 RPM (75 MPH without overdrive) for 6 hours straight, followed by a lower RPM run, and the final test was a hill climb.

Engine assembly, test data, pictures, and video have been documented in the September 2020 New Engine Update.

The assembly and testing of the new engine resulted in a few minor engineering changes to enhance the design.

As an engineer, I am always curious to find the weak link in a chain. The connecting rod bolts specified for the new Model A engine are 170 KSI 12-point 3/8-24 UNF x 1.25 inch (McMaster Carr #91271A644).

The weak link could have been the 12-point Craftsman socket, 12-point bolt, or the threads in the connecting rod upper half.

I tightened the bolts in 5 lb-ft increments to 60 lb-ft. At 65 lb-ft, something started to yield. I tightened 2 additional full turns to make it obvious what was yielding.

Upon disassembly, it was found that the bolt yielded and the threads in the upper half of the connecting rod were undamaged.


Production

The engineering changes have been made and production was authorized at the end of October 2020. We are in the middle of a production run and expect to have parts ready for delivery near the end of January 2021.

The attached pictures show parts in China that are part of the production run.



Website

John Lampl, Bill Percival, and a website developer are working on a website that will collect all scattered information about the new engine together in one place.

The new website will include everything at http://www.modelaengine.com, include the "Builders Guide", include an article on how to modify a stock Model A oil pump to double the area of the flow passages, have a section where questions and comments from social media have been captured, and a place to order the new engine parts.



The Team and Responsibilities

Terry Burtz ([email protected]), Engineering and Technical Adviser

John Lampl ([email protected]), Manufacturing and Distribution

William Percival ([email protected]), business management

Leonard Nettles ([email protected]), USA order processing


Ordering

There are well over 120 people that couldn't wait for the website to become active and they are on a list of buyers being kept by Leonard Nettles.

If you want to get on the list, please contact Leonard Nettles ([email protected]).

There is no deposit required to be placed on the list.



International Orders

Interest (from people on the buyers list) in the new engine from Australia/New Zealand, and Europe has been high enough to send containers directly from China and avoid US Customs.

If you are in Europe, please contact Hans Meijerink, [email protected], Phone 0031534319914

If you are in Australia/New Zealand, please contact Dean Roberts, [email protected], Phone +61 (0)408913355



Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump

Several people have asked questions regarding modifications to a Model A oil pump for increased flow. I have written an article that will be on the new website that describes how to modify an original Model A oil pump.

The article is attached to this Email.



Terry Burtz
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Crankshaft 1.jpg (44.6 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg Crankshaft 2.jpg (40.6 KB, 112 views)
File Type: jpg Crankshaft 3.jpg (77.6 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg Cylinder Block 1.jpg (74.5 KB, 110 views)
File Type: jpg Cylinder Block 2.jpg (76.1 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg Cylinder Block 3.jpg (60.5 KB, 101 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Dec 6 Doubling the Flow Area of A Model A Oil Pump.pdf (1.47 MB, 66 views)
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Old 12-10-2020, 10:16 PM   #198
AroundTheBlockEngines
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Canadians interested in ordering block kits?

Hey guys, I have been chatting with John Lempl and at this point I have at least 10 block kits coming to Ontario. If I get 5 more orders, we will be able to have a container shipped directly from China to Canada, and save quite a bit on shipping from California.

please email me or contact me through Instagram if you are interested and we can go from there. I am willing to just pass on the kit or can build the engine for you as I specialize in Model A, B and Flathead V8's in the Niagara region of Ontario.

Thanks,
Theo

email: [email protected]
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Old 12-11-2020, 05:44 AM   #199
Bruce of MN
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

120 orders! That is impressive.
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Old 12-11-2020, 01:21 PM   #200
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

In the crankshaft photos, it appears there are two different shafts? ? Is this true?
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Old 12-16-2020, 01:46 PM   #201
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In the crankshaft photos, it appears there are two different shafts? ? Is this true?
Russ,

I followed up with John Lampl on your question. John manages the manufacturing details for the block, crankshaft, and connecting rods.

He indicated that the two shafts that are in the middle of the first (upper left hand) picture are not a part of the Model A production run. All are just in a queue for shot blasting and simply intermingled on a tree that is used as a part of that process.
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Old 01-06-2021, 04:21 PM   #202
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I spoke with John Lampl regarding the status of the new engine kits and there will be a delay due to a coal shortage at the power plants in China.

Do a Google search on "China energy shortage" or look at:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-flying-demand

John still expects that the 1st production run will ship in January 2021.
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Old 01-06-2021, 09:40 PM   #203
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

That Bloomberg article does not mention the reason behind the shortage of energy in China, just that is exists. I'm sure you will have heard about the way China has placed high tariffs on Australian goods and banned others for flimsy reasons. One of the banned items is coal. It's not hard to follow the dots.
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Old 01-07-2021, 07:44 PM   #204
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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That Bloomberg article does not mention the reason behind the shortage of energy in China, just that is exists. I'm sure you will have heard about the way China has placed high tariffs on Australian goods and banned others for flimsy reasons. One of the banned items is coal. It's not hard to follow the dots.
Not good.

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Old 02-01-2021, 04:19 PM   #205
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello to All,

1 February 2021

New Engine Update

In case someone gets this email without seeing the full article on the "new" Model A engine, it is available at: http://www.modelaengine.com . This website also has engineering details, all of the previous updates, pictures, videos, and the latest "Builders Guide", "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump", and "Installing an Oil Filter".

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, suggestion, or wants to get on the email list for updates, please reply to [email protected]. We will add your email address to our mailing list for updates and do our best to address any questions that you may have.

There have been several inquiries regarding the status and schedule for the new Model A engine kit (Cylinder Block, Crankshaft, and Connecting Rods).

We expected to have parts near the end of January 2021, but are running about 4 weeks late.

We placed a production order near the end of October 2020 with a promised delivery date near the end of January 2021.

The delivery date and quantity of new Model A engine kits from China (Cylinder block, Crankshaft, and Connecting rods) are both being impacted by problems that we have no control over.

The engine factory in China is huge and it has multiple machining lines. They recently received an order for 10,000 Mitsubishi engines. These engines will be manufactured on a line that has multiple special machines in series that is a modern version of the machining line seen in movies from the Ford archives.

Since our order is small, it has lower priority and is being manufactured on a line using CNC machines. The good news is that the factory will maintain the same Quality Assurance standards whether the order is big or small. The bad news is that our requested quantity will not be met.

After the production order was placed in October 2020, there has been an energy shortage in China, the factory where the flywheels are being manufactured is completely shut down because of a new Covid outbreak, and there is a shortage of shipping containers.

I spoke with John Lampl today and the New Engine Kits being shipped to Australia/New Zealand, and Europe will be delivered to the container yard this week, and the New Engine Kits being shipped to the USA will be delivered to the container yard on February 9th.

Terry Burtz
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Old 02-01-2021, 07:17 PM   #206
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Are USA orders being taken yet?
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:27 PM   #207
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Are USA orders being taken yet?
Hey Russ,
Yeah, been on list since knew of it, last year !
Terry is the BEST , and I trust his word and input in this matter !

However, a bad feeling creeps in that Terry and his supporters are MAYBE stuck in twilight zone, in this matter...again !

China is saying... no coal for energy ( for our goal); China fighting/penalizing Aust, ergo no coal from there; Biden says no coal production/sales effected !

Did I miss anyone ?

The various problems that have hassled Terry over these many years, seem to conspire against this great project !!

If Terry were not so persistent, well I got this bad feeling again.

If you dont know this mans’ loong journey to make something great for our hobby...then this won’t mean anything to you.

If you do know such...

Wow, how does one handle a supply problem... involving the World ?
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:57 PM   #208
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I’m on the list but I haven’t heard anything about when to pay, who to pay and the specific amount.

Are there enough kits being shipped to the U.S. for everyone on the list?

In addition, will those of us on the West Coast have the option to pick up the engine kit at a specific location instead of having it shipped?

Will those decisions be made and announced when the kits are physically on the shipping container?

David Serrano
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Old 02-02-2021, 04:31 PM   #209
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I’m on the list but I haven’t heard anything about when to pay, who to pay and the specific amount.

Are there enough kits being shipped to the U.S. for everyone on the list?

In addition, will those of us on the West Coast have the option to pick up the engine kit at a specific location instead of having it shipped?

Will those decisions be made and announced when the kits are physically on the shipping container?

David Serrano
Hey David,
Do not have a clue.. about how many... and when ! Thats what current energy situ discussion is about, eh.
JOHN LAMPI: point contact man for orders !
As to specifics i.e.- when where etc, Terry has explained that he ‘expects’ (see latest report details) product Jan and now Feb due to details in report.
I’ve decided to pick up my item at local port (Long Beach I think) when/ if it arrives. Given choice to have it shipped to door, I took only other option.
Pay at door or at port when recd. Read thread. It gives the guy who is in-charge of taking orders.
Price depends on what you ordered:
I ordered blk, crank , rods and flywheel !
If in on first order... one set price. If in on subsequent orders( after first) price will be going UP.
Does any this help ?

Last edited by hardtimes; 02-02-2021 at 04:36 PM. Reason: ......
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Old 02-02-2021, 06:36 PM   #210
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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This is exciting! Who's gonna be the first to hot rod it? Interested to see what kind of power it will be able to handle
Well, dont know what you call hot rod...but, Ive had a Cast Iron Geo Riley 4-port sitting in storage , just dying to see something worthwhile powering.
This just maybe her opportunity to shine !!

As far as what kind of power...depends how deep pockets are !
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:46 PM   #211
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I am going to hop one up a bit.
I have a modified Roof head ready to go on the one I have on order. About two years ago, on a B block, it put out 118 hp at 3500 rpm but was underperforming between 1800 - 2600 rpm.
I don't run my engine up to 3500 rpm so I advanced the cam timing 4 degrees to increase lower end torque. The maximum hp was now 88 at 2800 - 3000 rpm and the torque was almost doubled from 1800 to 2600 rpm.
I am not sure how I will set/degree the cam on the new block yet...
Good Day!

Last edited by Dave in MN; 02-04-2021 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 02-03-2021, 07:29 PM   #212
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Hey David,
Do not have a clue.. about how many... and when ! Thats what current energy situ discussion is about, eh.
JOHN LAMPI: point contact man for orders !
As to specifics i.e.- when where etc, Terry has explained that he ‘expects’ (see latest report details) product Jan and now Feb due to details in report.
I’ve decided to pick up my item at local port (Long Beach I think) when/ if it arrives. Given choice to have it shipped to door, I took only other option.
Pay at door or at port when recd. Read thread. It gives the guy who is in-charge of taking orders.
Price depends on what you ordered:
I ordered blk, crank , rods and flywheel !
If in on first order... one set price. If in on subsequent orders( after first) price will be going UP.
Does any this help ?
Hardtimes,

Terry responded to me directly by e-mail and he answered my questions.

Thanks,

David
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Old 02-04-2021, 06:35 AM   #213
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China is saying... no coal for energy ( for our goal); China fighting/penalizing Aust, ergo no coal from there; Biden says no coal production/sales effected !
...
Wow, how does one handle a supply problem... involving the World ?
There's something like a billion dollars or something worth of our coal that can't be delivered in ships sitting off China. It's been paid for, so no skin off our noses. Our coal is usually high quality and used for smelting. Also burns cleaner. There is still stuff like iron ore they can't get elsewhere due to covid and dams bursting in Brazil. Latest graph.
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Old 02-04-2021, 11:42 AM   #214
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I hear, southern California pick up is in Hawthorn, Ca.
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Old 02-04-2021, 12:13 PM   #215
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Hey updraught,
Thanks, very informative !
I’m from coal country (Pa)
Bituminous and Anthracite , are the two types od coal that earth gives up. One HARD hot burning... clean burning !
One soft crumbly dirty dusty. Less energy when burned. Cheaper , well used to be ?
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Old 02-04-2021, 02:15 PM   #216
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Is the open pit mine near Emlenton, PA still working?
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Old 02-04-2021, 04:20 PM   #217
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There's something like a billion dollars or something worth of our coal that can't be delivered in ships sitting off China. It's been paid for, so no skin off our noses. Our coal is usually high quality and used for smelting. Also burns cleaner. There is still stuff like iron ore they can't get elsewhere due to covid and dams bursting in Brazil. Latest graph.
I know it would cause downstream problems for the whole world for a while but how long do you think the Chinese Government would last if Australia stopped sending iron ore to them? Would a new Government be more reasonable? This matter affects not only our hobby but everything that comes out of China. IMO, It's high time we brought these jobs back and to hell with the accountants who only want to increase profits at whatever collateral expense.
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:09 PM   #218
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Is the open pit mine near Emlenton, PA still working?
Hey Benson,
Don’t have an answer to that q.
Back when I lived in Pa , mining was done by digging shafts into earth... some for many miles deep !
Never saw pit mines back in 50s.
Tunneling was so hard on men, and on streams and surrounding areas.
Streams/rivers ran bright yellow/orange with sulfur,etc.

Any man who thinks/knows he has the toughest job in the world. I say wouldnt last a day, going down and working a coal mine.

Those men in our country... who made their living in coal mines... for our (USA) benefits, is a hero in my view and treated with respect !
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Old 02-06-2021, 06:19 AM   #219
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

According to this, China is cutting its steel production as part of a green plan.
https://www.sharecafe.com.au/2021/02...g-on-in-china/
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Old 02-06-2021, 08:20 AM   #220
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According to this, China is cutting its steel production as part of a green plan.
https://www.sharecafe.com.au/2021/02...g-on-in-china/

Let me get this straight. China is angry with Australia, so they have stopped buying Australian Coal. However, China continues to buy Australian iron ore. Now, this past December the Chinese government has issued an order to Chinese steel companies to reduce steel production resulting in falling iron ore prices to Australia and elsewhere. All of this will be a job killer for Australia? What am I missing?
For what it's worth, Since last September, China has been buying large amounts of corn and soybeans from the US and elsewhere, resulting in surging grain prices world wide.
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Old 02-06-2021, 04:21 PM   #221
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

We're getting a bit off track here but China is trying to break up America's allies one at a time and once there are none left, they will come after the US. Wake up, America.
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Old 02-07-2021, 02:47 AM   #222
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I know it would cause downstream problems for the whole world for a while but how long do you think the Chinese Government would last if Australia stopped sending iron ore to them? Would a new Government be more reasonable? This matter affects not only our hobby but everything that comes out of China. IMO, It's high time we brought these jobs back and to hell with the accountants who only want to increase profits at whatever collateral expense.
We could stop our 4c per litre gas sale to these bullies
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Old 02-16-2021, 04:32 PM   #223
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Block Update..

To all of you who have an interest in purchasing the new Block Kit and have returned an order form to us. The first delivery of block kits are on the water now. The ETA port of LA is 2 March. We expect to have blocks available at the Hawthorn, CA distribution center by around the 10-12th of March. In the meantime, we will contact those of you who will receive block kits this production, to make arrangements for pick up or delivery. Also, note: the lightened flywheel production has been delayed and will not be arriving with the block kits. We expect the flywheels will be available by mid-April in the warehouse and we will notify everyone when they arrive.

The first production was a limited quantity, and many of you on the wait list will not get a block kit this round however, you will be placed at the top of the list for the next round of deliveries later this spring. We will update the new production schedule within the next 2-3 weeks and expect to get firm spring delivery dates for you by then.

John
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Old 02-16-2021, 05:21 PM   #224
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks John, we are so looking forward to this!
Ted
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Old 02-16-2021, 06:39 PM   #225
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I'm not on the list, but this is wonderful news.
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Old 02-17-2021, 01:05 PM   #226
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Quote:
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Block Update..

To all of you who have an interest in purchasing the new Block Kit and have returned an order form to us. The first delivery of block kits are on the water now. The ETA port of LA is 2 March. We expect to have blocks available at the Hawthorn, CA distribution center by around the 10-12th of March. In the meantime, we will contact those of you who will receive block kits this production, to make arrangements for pick up or delivery. Also, note: the lightened flywheel production has been delayed and will not be arriving with the block kits. We expect the flywheels will be available by mid-April in the warehouse and we will notify everyone when they arrive.

The first production was a limited quantity, and many of you on the wait list will not get a block kit this round however, you will be placed at the top of the list for the next round of deliveries later this spring. We will update the new production schedule within the next 2-3 weeks and expect to get firm spring delivery dates for you by then.

John
I think I am on the wait list but do not recall submitting an actual form. How can i verify I am indeed on the waitlist?

Thankyou.
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Old 02-24-2021, 02:29 AM   #227
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Russ, and others,

I apologize for any confusion regarding how to order, the list, and the form.

My son Jesse updated the website (http://www.modelaengine.com/) with a tab on "How to Order".

Go to the website and click on the "How to Order" tab.

Read about picking up parts at the warehouse to avoid shipping costs, and combining orders to save on shipping costs.

Where it says "To place an order", click on docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScH3amSUnxYHfRF2ToR2wz8yB5Ghrs4MDGBIq9hejq8 FvzMkQ/viewform?gxids=7628

A form will pop up that needs to be filled out.

Fill out page 1 of the form with your contact information, the number of parts requested, and if you will be picking them up at the warehouse or need shipping.

At the bottom of page 1, click next.

Page 2 will pop up.

Move the button to the right where it says "Send me a copy of my responses".

Then, you can go back to edit, and when you are done, click "Submit".

Once submitted, you will get a return email assuring you that you are on the list, and John Lampl and Bill Percival will send an invoice to you that includes shipping and sales tax.

Terry Burtz
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Old 02-24-2021, 03:18 PM   #228
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Quote:
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Russ, and others,

I apologize for any confusion regarding how to order, the list, and the form.

My son Jesse updated the website (http://www.modelaengine.com/) with a tab on "How to Order".

Go to the website and click on the "How to Order" tab.

Read about picking up parts at the warehouse to avoid shipping costs, and combining orders to save on shipping costs.

Where it says "To place an order", click on docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScH3amSUnxYHfRF2ToR2wz8yB5Ghrs4MDGBIq9hejq8 FvzMkQ/viewform?gxids=7628

A form will pop up that needs to be filled out.

Fill out page 1 of the form with your contact information, the number of parts requested, and if you will be picking them up at the warehouse or need shipping.

At the bottom of page 1, click next.

Page 2 will pop up.

Move the button to the right where it says "Send me a copy of my responses".

Then, you can go back to edit, and when you are done, click "Submit".

Once submitted, you will get a return email assuring you that you are on the list, and John Lampl and Bill Percival will send an invoice to you that includes shipping and sales tax.

Terry Burtz
Thanks for the clarification. Leonard Nettles verified I am on the list. ...just anxiously awaiting for my name to come up for the invoice.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:45 PM   #229
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello:
I am new to the hobby and saw this post regarding new engines.
I have a question regarding the cost of an engine overall.

I see in the link you've provided that cost is $3500 dollars for basic parts " 5-Main block, Crankshaft, Connecting Rods "but doesn't clarify if bearings and what other parts come with cost of $3500? Does that cost cover short block price with the ancillary items included to assemble it or is everything extra? How do I find out what the extra parts will cost?
I have a 29 Tudor that needs an engine rebuilt and I'm weighing options of rebuilding it versus replacing it. Can you clarify what an engine would cost?
I have estimated through the rebuilders what my engine may cost but I don't know what a new one will cost all in?
Thanks
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:57 PM   #230
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Michael,

Thanks for your questions and concerns.

In regards to rebuilding or replace, the "New Engine Kit" replaces the original frail parts that are not designed to modern standards, may have been miss-machined in a prior rebuild, and maybe near the end of their fatigue life.

Before rebuilding, your original engine will need to be completely disassembled, cleaned, and evaluated. Common problems found include cracks, need for cylinder sleeves, need for valve seat inserts, and need for camshaft bushings. After evaluation, the cost of a rebuild can be determined.

The "New Engine Kit" looks identical to an original engine on the exterior and most of the parts from your old engine can be salvaged for building a new engine because the interfaces for attaching parts on the "New Engine Kit" are identical to the interfaces on an original engine.

The $3500 is an introductory price for those that are on the "How to Order" list before the end of March 2021. After the end of March, the price will be $3950 from us or you can buy from a parts retailer or an engine rebuilder.

This is what you will receive in the "New Engine Kit".

Cylinder Block
Qty 1, cylinder block with 4 hard exhaust seats, 5 cam bearings, and 10 cylinder block/main cap dowel pins installed. The following loose parts are either assembled to the cylinder block or they are packaged separately.
Qty 5, main caps
Qty 4, stepped (7/16 UNF x 1/2 UNF) studs for #1 and #3 main bearings
Qty 4, 1/2-20 UNF tall castle nuts for #1 and #3 main bearing studs
Qty 4, 7/16 UNC x 7/16 UNF studs for #2 and #4 main bearings
Qty 8, 7/16-20 UNF 12-point nuts for main bearing studs #1, #2, #3, and #4
Qty 2, 1/2 UNC x 1/2 UNF studs for #5 main bearing
Qty 2, 1/2-20 UNF 12-point nuts for main bearing #5 studs
Qty 2, 1/2-13 x 3/8 UNC setscrew for main oil galley end plug
Qty 5, 3/8-16 x 1/4 UNC setscrew for oil galley plug
Qty 1, 7/16 x 3/8 UNC setscrew for oil galley plug
Qty 1, 1/8-27 NPT slotted plug
Qty 2, dowel pins for cylinder block/flywheel housing interface
Qty 3, thrust washer half
Qty 6, 8-32 x 3/8 Phillips flat head brass screw for thrust washer halves
Qty 4, special small diameter studs with hardware used for line boring of main bearings 1 and 3 (to be discarded after verification of match marks)

Crankshaft
Qty 1, dynamically balanced crankshaft with 2 rear dowel pins, 4 setscrew oil passage plugs, and 1 Woodruff key installed.

Connecting Rod
Qty 4, balanced connecting rods each with wrist pin bushing, 2 dowel pins at the cap interface installed, and 2, 12-point 3/8-16 x 1 1/4 UNF bolts.

To minimize cost and assuming that you will be using everything possible from your old engine needing a rebuild, you will need to buy a gasket set, standard size pistons and rings, a Federal Mogul 415035 rear main seal, and 12 pairs of Federal Mogul 2020cp standard inserts.

Check with whoever you buy Model A parts from for prices, and check online or retail suppliers of modern car parts for the Federal Mogul seal and insert bearings.

For more information including "How to Order", the "Builders Guide", "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump", and "Installing an Oil Filter", see www.modelaengine.com
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Old 03-01-2021, 06:03 AM   #231
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

If you decide that rebuilding your current engine is too expensive for what you will end up with and decide to go this route, IMO, the best way to source the required "extra bits" is to cannibalise your old engine.
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Old 03-01-2021, 12:57 PM   #232
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

You mention 1- cylinder block with 4 hard valve seat. What are the intake valve seats comprised of?
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Old 03-01-2021, 06:58 PM   #233
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You mention 1- cylinder block with 4 hard valve seat. What are the intake valve seats comprised of?
Intake valves seat on the cast iron of the block, just like the originals. They don't get anywhere near as hot as the exhaust valves and don't need hardened seats.
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Old 03-07-2021, 04:57 PM   #234
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thank you, Mr. Burtz, for your reply post but it was not comprehensive enough to provide me and probably most potential customers with a total dollar amount for a complete running engine after purchasing your engine kit. My engine man gave me the following estimate shown below that includes the price of your engine kit added to the cost of the necessary parts and labor for a complete running engine ready to install, except for the cost of freight to receive your kit.



According to my engine man’s analysis of my engine, he showed me which parts were needed to be replaced and why and I trust his experience and judgement explicitly. Plus, based on comparison with other shops, my engine man’s estimate appears to be in line with most high quality shops in the U.S. and I want it done right. However, now that I know the total amount, I must admit I am somewhat shocked and completely disappointed that the total cost for a complete running engine is much more than I anticipated when including the purchase of your engine kit. The amount will come to a total of near 8000 DOLLARS after adding freight!



Consequently, I now feel that rebuilding my old engine is the best course for me and will serve my needs and not break the bank. I’m speaking for myself of course but I also feel that the average Model A’er will be burdened with an expense that many can’t and won’t afford with the purchase of your engine kit added to the other costs; it’s just too expensive for the majority of the Model A crowd. My opinion.



Best regards,



Michael Johnson

Estimate I got from engine man's description of parts I would need to be "All In"
Quantity Item Description Unit Price Amount

8.00 A6513 VALVE SPRINGS EA. 0.80 6.40

8.00 A6514 VALVE KEEPER 1.75 14.00

1.00 FEL-PRO HEAD GASKET 7013C 30.00

1.00 A6149-020 PISTON RINGS (HASTING).STD 47.75

1.00 A6108-020 PISTONS SET OF 4 .STD 94.00

1.00 A6500SLS ADJ. TAPPETS SINGLE SET 8* 112.00

1.00 A65058 VALVES (STNLS) SET OF 8 63.00

1.00 A6510 VALVE GUIDES SET OF 8 55.00

1.00 A606466HD CHROME MOLLY STUD & NUT SET 40.00

1.00 A6319 RATCHET NUT 12.75



1.00 A6400 FLYWHEEL SHIM PR. 1.50

1.00 A6259 CAMSHAFT NUT 5.50

1.00 A6312A CRANKSHAFT PULLEY (2 PIECES) 30.00

1.00 A6256LS LAMINATED TIMING GEARS STD 76.50

1.00 A6378MB FLYWHEEL HOUSING BLOCK BOLTS 5.25

1.00 A6306 CRANKSHAFT GEAR STEEL 22.00

1.00 A627576 CAMSHAFT THRUST PLUNGER 4.00

1.00 A6763 OIL FILLER PIPE 15.00

1.00 A6766P OIL CAP POWDER COATED BLACK 6.50

1.00 A6023 TIMING PIN 5.00

1.00 A6551 OIL PUMP DRIVE GEAR 24.00

1.00 A6570 LONG SPRING 1.50

1.00 A6648MB OIL PIPE MOUNTING BOLT SET 1.50

1.00 A6730 DRAIN PLUG 3.00

1.00 A6520MB VALVE COVER BOLT SET CAD 2.75

1.00 A6600 OIL PUMP REBUILD KIT 29.00

Quantity Item Description Unit Price Amount

1.00 A6676 OIL PAN BOLTS 4.75

1.00 A6376 FLYWHEEL BOLT 4 PCS 13.00

1.00 A6017MB SIDE COVER BOLT SET 4.75

1.00 A6019MB TIMING COVER BOLT SET 6.75

1.00 A6010H CAST IRON HEAD NEW HI COMP 38LBS 325.00

1.00 B-6250-N CAMSHAFT 456.00



1.00 A6310 OIL SLINGER 3.50

1.00 A6008CLH GASKET SET WITH NO HEAD GASKET 18.00

1.00 A7550 CLUTCH DISC 37.50

1.00 A7600 PILOT BEARING 15.00

1.00 A7609 FLYWHEEL DOWEL RETAINER 2.00

1.00 A8250A WATER OUTLET ON HEAD 1928-29 28.00



1.00 A8255C WATER OUTLET GASKET COPPER 5.00

1.00 A8255MB WATER INLET MOUNT. BOLT SET 3.00

1.00 A9433C MANIFOLD GASKET COPPER 2 PCS 13.00

1.00 A9431 MANIFOLD STUD 4 PCS 4.25

1.00 A9443 STUD WASHERS 4 PCS 4.75

1.00 A9440 GLAND RINGS 4 PCS 2.50

1.00 A9425W INTAKE MANIFOLD DRILLED 87.00

1.00 A9430 EXHAUST MANIFOLD 92.00

1.00 A9430S STEEL MANIFOLD NUTS 4 PCS 1.50

1.00 A12127 DISTRIBUTOR SCREW & LOCK NUT 1.50

1.00 A12249 LOWER SHAFT 3.50

1.00 A8501MB WATER PUMP MOUNTING STUDS SET 2.50

Subtotal 1,878.15

Burtz short block $3950
Burtz flywheel $300
Sealed power 2020Cp x12 $65.88
Federal Mogul 415035 1 $20.00

Engine man's labor to machine and assemble the engine:
Model A to assemble engine $500

Rebuild oil pump $60

Resurface and modify new head $250

Rebuild pressure plate $145

Crack repairs flywheel housing side cover around $100

Wash parts $150

Paint engine $150

Total for Labor $1355

Without knowing what shipping is I arrive at total estimate for parts and labor of:

$7569.03
that is before tax and shipping cost .
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Old 03-07-2021, 05:15 PM   #235
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

A new drain plug? See if the old one will work!
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Old 03-07-2021, 05:18 PM   #236
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A new drain plug? See if the old one will work!
Many of the items on that list could be sourced from the old engine and I see no problem doing that. After all, they would be reused if the old motor were rebuilt.
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Old 03-07-2021, 06:24 PM   #237
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

$150.00 for parts washing?
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Old 03-07-2021, 10:53 PM   #238
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Michael,

You are comparing apples and oranges.

If you take your total of $7569.03 and deduct the cost of Terry's new engine components and flywheel which comes to $4335.88 , you come up with $3233.15.
Now add up what it will cost to have your professional engine man take your old engine and disassemble it, strip the block, clean and de-rust the block, repair any cracks and fix broken studs or stripped holes. Bore mains for inserted bearings or pore Babbitt and line bore. Install valve seats, bore cylinders and may be even sleeve the block. Clean and mag rods, pore Babbitt and bore big ends. Install new pin bushings and fit pins, or purchase new rods. Clean, magniflux, the crank and install counter weights and grind. Clean and cut down the flywheel, and drill for modern clutch, install new flywheel ring gear. Get the whole thing balanced and ready for assembly. Purchase insert bearings if block was bored for inserts.

Figure out what this will cost assuming your block is rebuildable and the crank and flywheel are good. Your engine man will charge you additional if your block is no good and he has to strip and clean a second block. He is not going to do additional work and not get paid for it.

Now I am sure it will be less than using one of Terry's Kits BUT you will have a 90 year old rebuilt 3 main bearing, non pressurized, Model A engine with small crank and rod journals that is limited to how much compression you can run that will not last nearly as long as a "new" engine using one of Terry's kits.

If you are looking for the cheapest way to go, do not even consider using one of Terry's engine kits.

My opinion,

Chris W.
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Old 03-07-2021, 10:56 PM   #239
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I would get exited if this much effort were put forth in eliminating engine vibrations.
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Old 03-08-2021, 12:16 AM   #240
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

There is another reality coming down the Model A road; even though 4.8 million Model A's were produced, the number of good blocks is shrinking quickly. The shop I deal with says they throw away 6 or so bad blocks for every rebuildable block they use. If the new Terry Burtz block cannot turn the corner on cost effectiveness, there will still be fewer and fewer original blocks available. I don't know of anyone trying to reproduce the original blocks but I don't know much. Maybe someone will and the standards committees will allow them in show cars?
In the mean time, I applaud Mr. Burtz (and his team) for continuing the effort to bring his new block to the market and while it is more expensive, I sure would like to build one with a blower to see how far the new engine can be taken. Imagine a 200 HP Model A engine! Of course, I don't have the money to do this but it is fun to dream.
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Old 03-08-2021, 04:57 PM   #241
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There is another reality coming down the Model A road; even though 4.8 million Model A's were produced, the number of good blocks is shrinking quickly. The shop I deal with says they throw away 6 or so bad blocks for every rebuildable block they use. If the new Terry Burtz block cannot turn the corner on cost effectiveness, there will still be fewer and fewer original blocks available. I don't know of anyone trying to reproduce the original blocks but I don't know much. Maybe someone will and the standards committees will allow them in show cars?
In the mean time, I applaud Mr. Burtz (and his team) for continuing the effort to bring his new block to the market and while it is more expensive, I sure would like to build one with a blower to see how far the new engine can be taken. Imagine a 200 HP Model A engine! Of course, I don't have the money to do this but it is fun to dream.
A few years back, I saw the pile of blocks Brattons was about to throw out. After looking at some of them, I concluded many were quite salvageable. The blocks with cracks were marked at the crack and obviously, I couldn't crack test them but many of those not marked as cracked appeared salvageable. Maybe they had just not marked all of the cracks - who knows.
IMO, it depends how much the customer is prepared to spend to use them. The occasional stripped thread, for example that some use to justify discarding a block really is no problem.
You guys wouldn't believe what is brought back to life when no replacements are available. A ready supply of parts has lead to hasty disposal of not so bad parts, IMO.
I know of a guy in this state who has recast an engine block for his car, the only one of its type in the world after the original could not be repaired again. It was an expensive undertaking but it saved a valuable car. There is another guy who making 6 brand new 1920s Rolls Royce engines so he can use his cars. What was that about necessity being the mother of invention?
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:01 PM   #242
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Synchro, I was told some of the blocks are discarded because the cam bearing holes or the lifter bores are worn too far out of round. I was a little surprised that the non-cracked but very worn blocks were not sleeved or otherwise salvaged. Of course, I am not the one trying to salvage these either. Maybe is is a losing proposition to try to sleeve or use oversize replacement parts? Maybe there are not lifters that are over-sized enough?
I was hoping someone would correct me and tell everyone that someone is making original spec blocks.
My only disappointment with the Burtz effort is that they are all made in China. I was hoping he could find a foundry in the midwest that would take this on.
An earlier post suggested that the engines should be made to reduce vibrations; 5 mains, a truly balanced crank, updated pressure oiling and more modern rotating assemblies should go a long way to making a smoother running 4 banger. Beyond that, I think you need to swap out to a modern engine, but what's the fun in that?
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:31 PM   #243
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Synchro, I was told some of the blocks are discarded because the cam bearing holes or the lifter bores are worn too far out of round. I was a little surprised that the non-cracked but very worn blocks were not sleeved or otherwise salvaged. Of course, I am not the one trying to salvage these either. Maybe is is a losing proposition to try to sleeve or use oversize replacement parts? Maybe there are not lifters that are over-sized enough?
I was hoping someone would correct me and tell everyone that someone is making original spec blocks.
My only disappointment with the Burtz effort is that they are all made in China. I was hoping he could find a foundry in the midwest that would take this on.
An earlier post suggested that the engines should be made to reduce vibrations; 5 mains, a truly balanced crank, updated pressure oiling and more modern rotating assemblies should go a long way to making a smoother running 4 banger. Beyond that, I think you need to swap out to a modern engine, but what's the fun in that?
Like I said, Genebob, it all depends on how much the customer is prepared to pay. IMO, an original block sleeved properly with the right materials could be better than a new one.
Whether made in the Midwest or China, to us they are all foreign made. It just shows how far we have fallen behind and how many skills are being or are already lost.
I'm counting on the new engine being smoother running and agree with you about swapping to a modern engine.
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:57 PM   #244
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

No matter how we look at this thing, it comes down to 'Pay to Play.' You have to ask yourself "How badly do I want to go down this road?"

I've yet to find a hobby that doesn't get expensive rather quickly. Been pricing anything in the firearms sector recently? Or old coins? Or Petroliana?? A glass gasoline pump globe can set you back $3,000-$4,000 for a fairly moderate collectible globe. Even the entry level globes, the common ones, are bringing $400-$500 a pop. Neon signs start anywhere from $4,000 and up. For a single sided neon side. Double that for two sided. And $20K isn't unheard of for a neon sign, like the Ford Crest signs of the early 50's. Owwwww.

Old cars sure can set you back in coin But then so does everything else. I don't golf, have a boat, go to gambling casinos, or have horses but my friends that do tell me what THEY pay for that fun and it ain't cheap!!
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Old 03-09-2021, 09:01 AM   #245
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Jeff, you reminded me of a story. When my first daughter was an early teen, she showed a great talent in riding horses. At the time, I wanted to buy a small boat but the powers that be, convinced me to buy a horse for our daughter. I found out that, unlike the proverbial boat, a horse is a hole wrapped in fur into which you will pour money.
It is just kinda sad that the Model A is going from a poor man's collector car to a collector car that will turn you into a poor man.
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Old 03-09-2021, 02:04 PM   #246
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Quote:
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I would get exited if this much effort were put forth in eliminating engine vibrations.

That would be simple: Just engineer and install a balance shaft, like modern four bangers have. With some (major) machining you might be able to adapt one from a modern engine by changing the size of the counterweights. Go for it!
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Old 03-09-2021, 02:09 PM   #247
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Synchro, I was told some of the blocks are discarded because the cam bearing holes or the lifter bores are worn too far out of round. I was a little surprised that the non-cracked but very worn blocks were not sleeved or otherwise salvaged. Of course, I am not the one trying to salvage these either. Maybe is is a losing proposition to try to sleeve or use oversize replacement parts? Maybe there are not lifters that are over-sized enough?
I was hoping someone would correct me and tell everyone that someone is making original spec blocks.
My only disappointment with the Burtz effort is that they are all made in China. I was hoping he could find a foundry in the midwest that would take this on.
An earlier post suggested that the engines should be made to reduce vibrations; 5 mains, a truly balanced crank, updated pressure oiling and more modern rotating assemblies should go a long way to making a smoother running 4 banger. Beyond that, I think you need to swap out to a modern engine, but what's the fun in that?

Regarding a foundry, don't you think Terry has checked high and low for one? Sometimes you just have to face reality!
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Old 03-09-2021, 05:29 PM   #248
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

IMO, one of these new motors will go better than an original and last longer, yet from the outside look exactly like the original. Win - win! Sure, they might cost a little more than a rebuild but with less maintenance and longer life, they will be more economical in the long run.
My concern there is the availability of the bearing shells into the future but from here, I have no understanding of the situation over there. BTW, NONE of the GM cars that used those shell were sold here so my perception might be wrong.
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Old 03-09-2021, 07:00 PM   #249
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

How many of us have bought new counterbalanced cranks, forged rods, installing insert bearings in our old original blocks, plus plus boring, sleeving and re-boring each cylinder and installed hardened valve seats

It doesn't take an economics degree or an engineering degree to see the value of this engine.

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Old 03-09-2021, 07:31 PM   #250
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I ran some costs out to compare the cost of the new Burtz assembly to a good condition B block.
I recently had a failure on a B block/engine that required I start over. I searched for some time to find a B block that was crack free and where the cylinders would clean up to allow for the use of .060" oversize pistons without sleeves. That block cost me $500.

When I started with this $500 B block and added what it took to approximately equal the Burtz assembly. The cost was between $1500 - $1700 higher to use the Burtz block. Granted, I have parts I can switch over from the failed block engine to the B rebuild. So it would cost me less but if I was starting from "scratch" the costs I state would be my cost. I built that B block and it is in my car and working good.

New block, new crank that is 100% weighted, 5 mains, full oil pressure to all journals, 5 journal cam support and 2" insert bearings. These are all valuable and are things I did not get with the B build.

I needed another engine that I wanted to deliver 80 to 100 hp for a current build. I have been on the list for one of the Burtz blocks for sometime now. I ordered one of the blocks as soon as they would take an order.

I realize it is not inexpensive to build up one of these engines.
IMO: I considered it well worth the investment.

I sent my funds in last week for one of the engine kits. I expect I should get delivery soon.
Good Day!

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Old 03-09-2021, 08:38 PM   #251
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The ship carrying the new engine kits is being unloaded at the dock in Los Angeles. We are expecting to have kits ready for pick-up or shipped from the warehouse in Hawthorne, CA around March 22, 2021.


Syncro, The bearing inserts chosen for the new Model A engine were used by GM from 1955 until 2003 in 265, 283, and 327 V-8 engines, 194, 230, and 250 straight 6-engines, and 122, 140, and 153 straight 4-cylinder engines.

These engines were used in Buicks, Cadillacs, Checkers, GMCs, Isuzus, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs.

If you go to https://www.jegs.com/i/Sealed-Power/844/2020CP/10002/-1 and click on "Vehicle Fitment" near the bottom left of the page, 201 pages will open listing 2410 different vehicle makes and models that used the 2020CP insert.

If any of the engines listed above were used in Australia, it will likely use the 2020CP bearing insert.
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Old 03-09-2021, 08:56 PM   #252
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Syncro, The bearing inserts chosen for the new Model A engine were used by GM from 1955 until 2003 in 265, 283, and 327 V-8 engines, 194, 230, and 250 straight 6-engines, and 122, 140, and 153 straight 4-cylinder engines.

These engines were used in Buicks, Cadillacs, Checkers, GMCs, Isuzus, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs.

If you go to https://www.jegs.com/i/Sealed-Power/844/2020CP/10002/-1 and click on "Vehicle Fitment" near the bottom left of the page, 201 pages will open listing 2410 different vehicle makes and models that used the 2020CP insert.

If any of the engines listed above were used in Australia, it will likely use the 2020CP bearing insert.
Terry, I tried ordering from Jeggs but ran into trouble with their website. I suspect they put on too much security when access is from outside the US (understandably). Holden, now closed down, was GM's Australian branch and they may have used some of those engines, I don't know.
We had a few Isuzu models here but they were metric sizes, I think. Not in my lifetime (1948) have any of those other brands been sold new in Australia. A fellow Barner with whom I have had previous contact (like at the Pizza night in Reno) helped me out by buying them and sending them on. I owe him a debt.
I'm hoping that either I never need undersized shells or that they are still readily available over there and vendors are prepared to sell to me. Jeggs was not the first time I have had this trouble with an American supplier.
Another benefit of the new engine is that it is likely to run smoother than an original. If so, I plan on removing the flota mota mounts and installing solid ones again. it makes a big difference to how the car drives.
I am keenly awaiting the arrival of my new engine.
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Old 03-09-2021, 10:11 PM   #253
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The ship carrying the new engine kits is being unloaded at the dock in Los Angeles. We are expecting to have kits ready for pick-up or shipped from the warehouse in Hawthorne, CA around March 22, 2021.
Terry, we are eagerly anticipating arrival of the new engine kits in Beamsville Ontario Canada. Ted
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Old 03-09-2021, 10:26 PM   #254
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"Regarding a foundry, don't you think Terry has checked high and low for one? Sometimes you just have to face reality!"
Whether Terry checked high and low or not, I was hoping it could be made in the USA. I was also hoping the blocks would have gotten here in time to build an engine for my car. However, the reality was that I had the shop build up an original block because the new engines were not ready yet.
I wish Terry Burtz and his team all the best, I really do. I wish I could build one of his new engines but I would need to sell my current engine to even have a chance of affording the new build. And I still wish it was made here in the USA.
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Old 03-10-2021, 11:30 AM   #255
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Apparently Tod seems to be able to line up foundries, but not for the quantities Terry is going for. Anyone know what Tod gets for his blocks?
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Old 03-10-2021, 02:39 PM   #256
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Apparently Tod seems to be able to line up foundries, but not for the quantities Terry is going for. Anyone know what Tod gets for his blocks?
Russ,

I spoke to Tod and he did not have a precise price only a ball park figure. This may be due to the different quantities he orders in each run plus the foundry he uses and other factors.

I’m not sure you can compare the two products. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand his is a bare block that has to be machined and you will need everything to assemble an engine.

The final cost could be very close between the two, both probably cost about the same as rebuilding an existing block. The only advantage probably comes down to whether you want an engine with an old block vs. a more reliable new block.

David Serrano
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Old 03-19-2021, 03:33 PM   #257
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Mr Burtz,
WOW!
Just picked up my Burtz BLOCK/CRANK and RODS !
They are shipped in great wooden custom crates !!
Great JOB to Terry, John Lampl and crew !!

Last edited by hardtimes; 03-19-2021 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Vvvvvv
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Old 03-19-2021, 05:19 PM   #258
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Arnold, you might try summit, Hayden just got enough bearings for the 6 engines.shipped straight to he door, I just got a new 4in crank for the 33 shipped from Jegs took 1-1/2 weeks straight to the door.
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Old 03-19-2021, 05:35 PM   #259
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Arnold, you might try summit, Hayden just got enough bearings for the 6 engines.shipped straight to he door, I just got a new 4in crank for the 33 shipped from Jegs took 1-1/2 weeks straight to the door.
Lawrie
Lawrie, I am being told time and time again that things are in such a mess in the US that getting anything out is nigh on impossible. (I am still waiting for a parcel sent in July last year.) The usual reason given for the situation is COVID and their lack of a response. I am at the point where I'll hold off on everything for a while and hope the ship steadies soon.
I hope they get their act together soon or they might find they can't.

For any of our American friends who might not like the above, facts are facts and don't take sides. While you may not notice from within the country, from outside, we can see what's happening - and it's not restricted to just the US. That's not top say everything is just peachy here either!
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Old 03-19-2021, 06:00 PM   #260
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Hey Mr Burtz,
WOW!
Just picked up my Burtz BLOCK/CRANK and RODS !
They are shipped in great wooden custom crates !!
Great JOB to Terry, John Lampl and crew !!
Great to hear! Can’t wait to see them here in Canada! Very encouraging!
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Old 03-20-2021, 12:29 AM   #261
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Great to hear! Can’t wait to see them here in Canada! Very encouraging!
Birthday this week ...for real ! And this Burtz present takes/makes the cake !!
Started unwrapping and examining all. Took a long close check of everything. Ive been ‘playing’ with old rusted worn out original ford blocks, cranks, rods forever !
This new equipment is impressively STOUT !
With modern metallurgy, machining , fit/finish...this best thing since sliced bread !!
The castings are perfect. The block is perfect ( and heavy) , and the crank is a work of beauty !
Here’s a great aspect... ALL THE MACHINE SURFACES ARE READY FOR ASSEMBLY !!
Machine work is super expensive , unless you own machine shop. I dont have to spend thereby saving $$$$ !
Believe what you will about costs of original blocks etc.. vs this beautiful NEW equipment. I see getting in on first order... as win/win for me !
Bearings off the shelf.. with perfect fit. Same with gasket and bolts kit. Heck, I even went into my junk pile and got an A pan... it fits !!
The blk in numbered, as are the rods... lots of great thinking went into this. Stock EVERYTHING works!
Luckily, I have a five bearing cam that Jim B cut for an OHV head I’ll be using. The head FITS !
Even has 5 cam bearings INSTALLED !
Cherry on top ? Yeah... there is a manual directing how to for owner !!
Excited to get started, but have to finish one ahead of Burtz at this time !
NO CONTEST...IMO $ wise. Thanks Terry.

Did I say that this equipment is BEEFY ?? Wait till you set eyes on it !
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Old 03-20-2021, 12:50 AM   #262
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Pictures anyone ??

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Old 03-20-2021, 01:49 AM   #263
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I should get ours in the new few weeks,
I spent today making a remote filter mount and pipe work for them.it came out very nice.
Pics tomorrow
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Old 03-20-2021, 03:05 AM   #264
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Terry, I tried ordering from Jeggs but ran into trouble with their website. I suspect they put on too much security when access is from outside the US (understandably). Holden, now closed down, was GM's Australian branch and they may have used some of those engines, I don't know. ....
I've ordered from Jegs, but via ebay as the shipping is more reasonable.

It says:
1964 CHEVROLET IMPALA
  • Liter: 4.6
  • SubModel: SS
  • Aspiration: NATURALLY ASPIRATED
  • Fitment Notes: Standard Size
  • CUI: 283
  • Engine Type: V8 ( 4.6L / 283 )
A friend of mine in my youth had a 64 Impala. Should be able to get parts somewhere for a 283. Try Auto Surplus.
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Old 03-20-2021, 08:26 AM   #265
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

HapPy Birthday Hardtimes! What a great present! Enjoy!
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Old 03-20-2021, 12:27 PM   #266
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Just have to pick a day and go get mine. About 120 miles north of Santee. Can't wait!
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Old 03-20-2021, 07:55 PM   #267
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I've ordered from Jegs, but via ebay as the shipping is more reasonable.

It says:
1964 CHEVROLET IMPALA
  • Liter: 4.6
  • SubModel: SS
  • Aspiration: NATURALLY ASPIRATED
  • Fitment Notes: Standard Size
  • CUI: 283
  • Engine Type: V8 ( 4.6L / 283 )
A friend of mine in my youth had a 64 Impala. Should be able to get parts somewhere for a 283. Try Auto Surplus.
All sorted with the help of a friendly Barner in the US
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Old 03-21-2021, 11:57 AM   #268
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

hardtimes,

Happy Birthday and thanks for the comments.
Please continue to comment on fits and tolerances as you assemble the new engine.
The "Engine Builders Guide" that comes with the engine kit is a document that changes with time. To see the latest revision, go to www.modelaengine.com and click on "GUIDES"





The 1st production run of new engine kits is being picked up and shipped from the warehouse in Hawthorne, CA.

The 2nd production run has been ordered and is expected to arrive in June 2021.

The introductory price is in effect until the end of March 2021. After that date, the price to individuals will increase. Dealers will get a discount for quantity orders. The 1st production run is sold out. To get on the waiting list for the 2nd production run, go to www.modelaengine.com and fill out the order form under "How to Order". No deposit is required. Submit the form before the end of March to get the introductory price.

Many comments and questions have been made and asked. The following is a sampling of emails received.




Hi Terry,

Would you use or recommend using:

1. Larger exhaust valves

2. Bronze timing gear set

3. Adjustable lifters – single or two nut

I have read so many pros and cons, I no longer know the truth. I drive my Model A about 3K or more miles a year.

Thanks, Kerry



Kerry,

To get more performance, modern engines (and modified Model A engines) use larger intake valves.
Think of the engine as an air pump. It's easier to push air (exhaust) than to suck air (intake).
The intake ports of a stock Model A engine are more restrictive when compared to the new Model A engine.
My feeling is that oversize ports and stock-size valves in the new engine will flow close to the flow of oversize valves in an old engine. Flow bench testing would be needed to measure the difference.
I would use an aluminum timing gear. Bronze is stronger, but not worth the extra expense.
Single lock tappets are recommended.
Please read the attached "New Model A Engine Builders Guide".
Terry Burtz




To whom it may concern:
I would like to start by saying Wow! I read through your entire design article and I am amazed at everything you thought of and your talents in building something like this improved design.
If I understood correctly your first production run was produced in China. My question is do you foresee a future where you would have a US based foundry pour the pieces? My reason for asking is because I have a government job and prefer when possible to support US workers as they support me through their tax dollars. My second question is how much is the current run if there is no US batch in the plans?
Thank you for your time, Bob

Bob,
Thanks for the kind words, compliments, and questions.
I tried having the new engine parts manufactured in CA for several years without success. The cylinder block is a complex casting that is beyond the capabilities of any remaining foundry in CA.
I'm in Silicon Valley and everything invented here is manufactured in the far east because CA is very unfriendly towards any manufacturing business.
The factories in China are friendly, eager to please, can hold the tight tolerances needed for this project, and their price is affordable.
Our orders are in the hundreds compared to Mitsubishi that just ordered 10,000 engines.
Terry Burtz





Thanks Terry-I just ordered one for June delivery I ordered it with flywheel -but I am running the later Ford clutch which means flywheel needs to be turned down ????? Am I better off using flywheel I have and turning it down here or ??? I imagine your flywheel is stock although lightened??

Thanks for your help

Best of luck with your venture ..Doug


Doug,
Thanks for your order.
The 30-pound flywheel is drilled for the V-8 pressure plate.
Pasted below is what is in section 12 of "The New Engine Builders Guide" which can be found at www.modelaengine.com by clicking on "Guides".
12) Flywheel
The optional 30 pound flywheel is machined to use the Ford V-8 9-inch "Long design" pressure plate (48-7563 or 09A-7563). We do not recommend the use of the 8N-7563 tractor pressure plate. The new flywheel is machined to accept the original Ford shoulder bolts (350433- S) that attach the pressure plate to the flywheel. Other 5/16-18 shoulder bolts can be used. Shoulder bolts are much stronger in shear than fully threaded bolts. These bolts should use lock washers and we recommend a torque of 18 lb-ft. The new flywheel does not come with a ring gear installed because the beveled teeth on the ring gear need to be at the rear if using a Model A starter, and at the front if using a gear reduction starter. We do not recommend the use of a "barrel" tractor starter drive instead of an original Bendix because the "barrel" drive has a shorter throw (the distance that the pinion gear moves between rest and extension), and it will not engage the ring gear completely. The new flywheel does not come with a pilot bearing because some people prefer the porous bronze oil impregnated bushing while others prefer a ball bearing.
Terry Burtz




John , Charlie Yapp recommended I speak to you gentlemen . He told me about your new engine, why I should be interested in it ,-- and I’m doing a 1939 Model a engine Dirt Track racecar . But I have some questions for you .

My understanding is it’s a new block , 5 main crank (insert bearings ) and a set of insert brg rods ?
Does it need line boreing ?
Cam bearings ?
Valve seats installed?
What R.P.M should this attain and still live?
Deck planed?
Bores done? Why aren’t pistons supplied?
Not balanced? And no bearings supplied?
Is it cleaned i.e does it need hot tanking or ?
Anything else I need to know ?
Cost ?
Sorry I know its lots of questions I’m just trying to figure out costs compared to a total machine shop rebuild and the surprises that come from rebuilding with questionable block /crank etc . (mine not yours)

Shipping? from Calif to 13669 (upper New York ) commercial dock unloading -if you have an idea please advise . Thanks and advise what your delivery timing is . Doug


Doug,

Thanks for your interest in the new Model A engine kit.

For more details, please see www.modelaengine.com

Regarding your questions:

1) Yes, you get a new cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods.

2) The cylinder block is line bored and each of the 5-main caps is aligned with 2 dowel pins.

3) The cylinder block comes with 5 cam bearings installed.

4) The exhaust valve seats are hard and replaceable. Intake seats are grey iron and can be enlarged.

5) The connecting rod was finite element analyzed and stresses were low at 5500 RPM. During engineering evaluation testing, we assembled the engine and then broke it in by running it at 3100 RPM for 6 hours straight.

6) The upper surface of the cylinder block is machined and ready for assembly.

7) The bores are ready for assembly. We used Egge pistons with narrow rings in the engineering evaluation engine and they fit with .004-inch wall clearance. We are only supplying the unique parts needed to build a new engine that looks stock but has internal improvements. Any piston that fits a stock Model A engine can be used.

8) The 4 connecting rods are balanced as a set. The crankshaft is static and dynamically balanced. Insert bearings (Federal Mogul 2020 CP) were used in GM V-8 engines, in-line 6-cylinder engines, and in-line 4-cylinder engines from 1955 until 2003 and are readily available from almost any auto parts supplier, Amazon, and eBay.

9) The parts are lightly oiled, placed in plastic bags, and shipped in wooden crates. They may accumulate dust and there may be chips in the oil passages from machining. In the "Builder's Guide", we recommend that all parts be surgically clean for long engine life.

10) Read everything on www.modelaengine.com Some of the information in the "Main Article" has changed as the design has matured.

11) The introductory price is $3500 until the end of March 2021. After that date, the price to individuals is $3950. Dealers will get a discount for quantity orders. The 1st production run is sold out. To get on the waiting list for the 2nd production run, go to www.modelaengine.com and fill out the order form under "How to Order". No deposit is required. Submit the form before the end of March to get the introductory price.

John Lampl has made arrangements with a shipping company that will ship at a discount rate. When you return the order form, you will get a quote including sales tax and shipping to the residential or commercial address that you specify.

The 2nd production run is expected to arrive in June 2021. After the container is on the ship and leaves China, you will receive an invoice.

Terry Burtz









Hey Terry,
Ive been planning regarding building new model A... Burtz engine.
1- Any problem with having your new 5 main crank ... drilled for full pressure ? Any comment as to good/ bad /unnecessary , etc ...
2- Can a model A oil pan be used, or must a model B pan be used (with your new engine blk) ? Any pan mods necessary to use either ?
3- oil pump use.
What pump did you end up using when engine was first built/run ?
Did you end up with modern high volume pump (Stipe?).
Did you ever use pressured oil system in new engine. Comment ?
4- Do you have WRITTEN instruction/advice to go with blk order ?
5- are surfaces FLAT, or need to be made flat ?
THANKS TERRY !
Your friend
Richard


Richard,
1) The new Model A engine crankshaft is drilled for oil pressure from the mains to the connecting rods and the connecting rod journals are cross-drilled. There are no dippers on the connecting rods, but the reinforcing ribs extend the same length to splash oil for cylinder wall, wrist pin, tappet, and valve guide lubrication
2) A stock unmodified Model A oil pan can be used. Dimpling is not needed.
3) We used a stock Model A oil pump that was modified to double the area of all passages and incorporate a relief valve. See "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump" at www.modelaengine.com We did not use an oil filter on the engineering evaluation engine. There are 17 drilled oil passages in the cylinder block and 4 in the crankshaft that supplied pressure lubrication in the engineering evaluation engine.
4) I'm attaching the "Builders Guide", "Doubling the Flow Area of A Model A Oil Pump", and "Installing an Oil Filter". These should answer many questions. The "New Model A Engine Builders Guide" and other documents are evolving and subject to change. The latest revisions can be found under "GUIDES" at www.modelaengine.com
5) All machined surfaces are flat, have the proper surface finish, and follow the original Ford drawing. Within the last month, the factory in China received an order for 10,000 Mitsubishi engines, and the new Model A engine will have the same precision and quality assurance.
Terry Burtz





Hi Terry,

Hope this finds you well and in good spirits. I'm hoping to hear soon that the engines will be shipping out of LA. In the meantime I was wondering if it would be a good idea when it arrives to balance the crank, crankshaft gear and pulley, rods, pistons, and flywheel as an assembly before putting the engine all together? If this is advisable, should I include the clutch assembly as well? I have an A friend that said he would help me with the assembly (he's done many in his time) and said we should record the process and then post it online. I think that might be a fun thing to do. I have a local machinist who's working on the special bolts needed for the oil filter and oil pressure gauge.
Steve


Steve,

I'm in good spirits and thanks for your comments.
The engine kits are at Averitt Express, 3133 West 131st Street, Hawthorne, CA 90250, Phone 800 283-7488, https://www.averittexpress.com/publi.../CA/LGB.jspThe kits are ready for pick up at Averitt or will be shipped from Averitt if you are in the first production run.
The new connecting rods are balanced as a set and not with any other parts.
Pistons are balanced as a set from the manufacturer.
The new crankshaft is static and dynamically balanced.
When they arrive (mid-April), the new flywheels will be balanced.
The new engine parts are made and balanced in a factory that makes 10's of thousands of engines to tolerances that are very tight. There are shops that assemble formula 1 engines that rev to 18000 RPM and the balance in this application needs to be more precise.
The crankshaft timing gear and front pulley have a very small mass that is close to the center of rotation and they don't need to be balanced.
Instead of balancing each rotating part separately which takes more time, automobile machine shops get lazy, want to maximize profit, and talk the customer into balancing all rotating parts as an assembly.
The other reason for balancing the "assembly" is because of machining errors where the flywheel mounting flange is no longer concentric with the rear main journal. When this happens, the crankshaft and flywheel need to be matched marked and will only be in balance when match marks are aligned.
The new engine parts are all balanced separately and no match marks are needed.
Having everything balanced as an assembly makes it difficult if you want to change one rotating part because all rotating parts will need to be rebalanced as an assembly.
Terry Burtz






Hi Terry,
Thanks so much for getting back to me. It appears from your description that additional balancing will not be necessary (I don't think I'll be formula 1 racing anytime soon).
Just want to make sure I do everything correctly (the first time).
If I'm in the second production run any idea when they might arrive?
Thanks again for all your help.
Steve

Steve,
You are correct, everything from the factory is balanced individually.
During the engineering evaluation testing during the 6-hour test at 3100 RPM (75 MPH), there were no noticeable vibrations.
The 2nd production run should be here in June 2021 unless it has the same problems as the 1st production run (new Covid outbreak, energy shortage, container shortage, and stuck in a holding pattern off the coast of Los Angeles waiting to unload).
Terry Burtz



Good morning Terry, can you tell me if using Chrome moly rings will be a good combination for the new block. I don’t suppose the is anything special about the type of cast iron. Any gray cast used in modern block casting should be fine.
Looking forward to my kit availability. I have been in touch with a gent in Vancouver, WA to facilitate shipping. I have offered to pickup those kits available for Oregon an Washington. I believe he said sometime in May.
In any case, looking forward to the time of delivery.
Best regards,
Larry

Larry,
The cylinder block is a modern grey iron alloy that is compatible with any ring choice.
You may want to consider using thinner than stock rings.
Rings are either chrome or moly, but not both.
Please read https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/...commendations/
We used Hastings ring set 665 in the engineering evaluation engine along with Egge E1104 pistons.
Terry Burtz
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Old 03-21-2021, 07:33 PM   #269
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Terry,
As you know, my flywheel did not come with my engine kit.. as ordered.
What is your plan for my receiving the flywheel ?
That is... pick up or have delivered ?
I’m not in hurry, just like to know plan. THANKS Rick (Hardtimes).

BTW.... If not too much trouble, TWO flywheels would be nice.

Last edited by hardtimes; 03-21-2021 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Xxxxx
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Old 03-22-2021, 01:49 AM   #270
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

this is the filter set up I made today for the new A engines,
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Old 03-22-2021, 05:24 PM   #271
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Questions:

1. In Guides for Oil filter does the date under the title the version number?

2. Are the portions with gray background the edited portions of text?



3.Terry please note that the gray background ONLY appears when you print the document!

Last edited by Benson; 03-22-2021 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 03-22-2021, 05:46 PM   #272
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

hardtimes,
The flywheels should arrive near the end of April 2021.

Benson,
The "Builders Guide" that comes with the engine kit is abbreviated and has been revised several times. The latest revision of the "Builders Guide", "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump", and "Installing an Oil Filter" can be found at www.modelaengine.com
Click on "Guides" and then click on the guide that you want to read.
When you open one of the guides, the date under the title is when it was last revised.
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Old 03-22-2021, 06:24 PM   #273
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removed

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Old 03-22-2021, 08:40 PM   #274
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Love Benson's story. It reminds me of one of my wife's cousins who was very good with languages. He had been working for a multinational pharmaceutical company in Vietnam for a while and had become quite proficient in that language, even learning to read and write it. One day, he was informed that he was being transferred to China so he set about learning Mandarin, both speaking it and reading it.
On his first day in the new office, he sensed there were going to be problems because he wasn't Chinese. One of the first things asked of him was to go to the manager's office for a welcome. When he arrived, the manager was on the phone talking in Mandarin but the conversation didn't sound quite right so cousin ran an eye over some of the papers spread on the desk. It turned out the manager was ripping off the company and selling product on the black market for his own gain.
When the conversation was over, the manager turned to cousin and went through the usual welcome talk in English while cousin remained silent. As he left the office, cousin thanks the manager but ended with a couple of sentences in Mandarin. There was a look of horror in the manager's face as reality dawned on him but cousin never said anything more about it nor did he have any trouble in that branch.
PS It was while he was there that he was diagnosed with Melanoma. He returned to Australia but died from it not long after at the age of 42.
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Old 03-22-2021, 09:00 PM   #275
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off topic

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Old 03-23-2021, 04:10 PM   #276
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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hardtimes,
The flywheels should arrive near the end of April 2021.

Benson,
The "Builders Guide" that comes with the engine kit is abbreviated and has been revised several times. The latest revision of the "Builders Guide", "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump", and "Installing an Oil Filter" can be found at www.modelaengine.com
Click on "Guides" and then click on the guide that you want to read.
When you open one of the guides, the date under the title is when it was last revised.
Hey Terry,
Thanks for info and your help regarding flywheels !
Speaking of flywheels, I spent a LOT of time going thru...ALL of the background info/research / work that you did in regards to this engine...Wow, no wonder it has turned out to be such a great product.

I came to a page where a picture of a flywheel of 20 pounds was shown. 'Soon to be available' ...was the caption. Can you comment on this item ?
It appears to be a combination of aluminum and cast iron ?? I'm interested. NICE looking equipment !
Q: Will your agent accept cash at time of pickup...or ?
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Old 03-23-2021, 07:11 PM   #277
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

hardtimes,

The flywheel shown in the picture had a cast-iron center from a Model A flywheel, a bell section made from 356-T7 Aluminum, and a Model A ring gear that was drilled for attachment bolts. This is not a production item because of all the machine work needed.

The 30-pound production flywheels for the "new engine" are all cast iron and will be here in late April 2021. When they leave China, John Lampl (Allied Classics) will send out invoices. For ease of bookkeeping, you need to pay the invoice, and then John will notify the warehouse in Hawthorne to release the merchandise. The warehouse is not set up to receive cash payments.
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Old 03-23-2021, 11:53 PM   #278
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Terry, If we ordered the flywheel initially with the first shipment and did not receive one, are we secure in having first shot at the ones coming in late April? Or, do we have to fill out an order?
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Old 03-24-2021, 06:36 PM   #279
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Russ,

Yes, if you placed an order for a flywheel, you are on the list to get one.

If anyone has a question regarding what they have ordered or not ordered, please contact John Lampl ([email protected])
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Old 03-24-2021, 07:42 PM   #280
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Pic of the pipe work with out the filter on.
I made six sets yesterday, they use an easy to get oil filter
Lawrie
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Old 03-25-2021, 01:03 PM   #281
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Crankcase compression: I have not read all the postings in this thread, I have not read all the engineering data. Has there been any discussion on crankcase compression ? All modern engines, at least the last 50+ years, Have some form of Positive Crankcase Ventilation. What is the thinking on this new engine ? I know I addressed it 30+ years ago on my own modified B engine with a PCV valve. All engines have a certain amount of "leakdown" Thanks, Rick.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:51 PM   #282
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Ballpark what does one of these cost?
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Old 03-25-2021, 03:39 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrie View Post
Pic of the pipe work with out the filter on.
I made six sets yesterday, they use an easy to get oil filter
Lawrie
Your tubing work and mount are nicely done. It looks like it will work with various headers and intake manifolds too.
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Old 03-25-2021, 04:35 PM   #284
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Your tubing work and mount are nicely done. It looks like it will work with various headers and intake manifolds too.
I can't speak for Lawrie but I doubt accommodating headers was a consideration. Headers are not possible here.
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:36 PM   #285
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Quote:
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Crankcase compression: I have not read all the postings in this thread, I have not read all the engineering data. Has there been any discussion on crankcase compression ? All modern engines, at least the last 50+ years, Have some form of Positive Crankcase Ventilation. What is the thinking on this new engine ? I know I addressed it 30+ years ago on my own modified B engine with a PCV valve. All engines have a certain amount of "leakdown" Thanks, Rick.
Hey Richard,
I’m taking ‘compression’ to crankcase pressure.
A/B Ford engines, including new one, all have .... an oil fill tube. That handles any blow by. Ergo... zero crank case pressure... as long as tube is not plugged.

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Old 03-25-2021, 10:46 PM   #286
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Ballpark what does one of these cost?
Hey marc,
First run +\minus... $3800.
Mr Burtz has said that he will (hold) 2nd run at near this price. Thereafter price per unit will rise.
NOTE:
The basic engine parts includes block, crank, rods, some necessary plugs/fasteners. Also an owner manual.

A 30 lb flywheel can be purchased also.
Hope this helps.
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Old 03-25-2021, 11:40 PM   #287
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I can't speak for Lawrie but I doubt accommodating headers was a consideration. Headers are not possible here.
I don't understand what you mean that headers are not possible here. Do you mean in Australia?
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Old 03-25-2021, 11:52 PM   #288
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Hardtimes, Yup crankcase pressure, All engines have it. How well the filler tube handles it depends on leakdown, RPM, wear. Road draft tubes where an early attempt to deal with it. Looks like no one is concerned about, I was just curious what the thinking is. Rick.
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Old 03-26-2021, 04:28 AM   #289
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

They are harder to fit up on a RHD car.
Arnold is right, The filter is made to fit up with a stock manifold and carb, as well as an alloy manifold and down draft carb like a 97, as well as the engine pans.
Lawrie
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Old 03-26-2021, 06:15 AM   #290
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Im interested in the PCV question also
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Old 03-26-2021, 08:23 AM   #291
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They are harder to fit up on a RHD car.
Arnold is right, The filter is made to fit up with a stock manifold and carb, as well as an alloy manifold and down draft carb like a 97, as well as the engine pans.
Lawrie
Oh, I was not thinking about the RHD that you would be dealing with.
Take care.
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Old 04-04-2021, 03:12 AM   #292
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Fit/ finish.....Burtz engine

Today I made a trial installation of a ‘28 5 bearing cam... into the 5 cam bearing Burtz block.
IT FIT TIGHT AND RIGHT, into the already installed cam bearings.
A great feeling when buying equipment that works as sold new.
Thanks Terry

Q: Terry... Im thinking of buying Using same alum oil pump (Stipe).. in your new engine kit.
Does the ‘DOG’ clamp work with Stipe oil pump ?
Any plumbing methods/tips used with that pump will help. Thanks.
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Old 04-04-2021, 01:13 PM   #293
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Yes, a dog clamp will work with the Stipe oil pump.

The Stipe pump comes machined to direct all oil to the outside of the cylinder block through the 1/8 NPT hole that must be enlarged to 1/4 NPT. The Stipe oil pump comes with machining instructions that will allow it to deliver oil internally like a stock Model A oil pump.

See "2) Oil System Options" in the "Builders Guide" found at www.modelaengine.com.

The latest "Builders Guide" has 27 March 2021 under the title.
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Old 04-04-2021, 10:47 PM   #294
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

With the delivery of the1st batch of motors being fulfilled, it would appear that a wonderful cottage industry could very well spring up to humidity the majority of us ����. High volume oil pumps are mandatory for the Burtz block, as well as 5 main bearing cam shafts , full flow oil filers and possibly a few other things on the average builders wish list. �� These individual items along with the new block gives a whole new set of opportunities for the number of new replacement OHV systems out now and coming on line very soon.
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Old 04-04-2021, 11:43 PM   #295
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Pic of the pipe work with out the filter on.
I made six sets yesterday, they use an easy to get oil filter
Lawrie
I bought a similar unit for my engine. My engine re-builder refused to install it. He said that it took oil that should have gone to the valve chamber and dumped it onto the timing gear.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...earchByKeyword
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:00 AM   #296
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I bought a similar unit for my engine. My engine re-builder refused to install it. He said that it took oil that should have gone to the valve chamber and dumped it onto the timing gear.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...earchByKeyword
The oil filter kit that you have a link to WILL NOT work with a Burtz block. The Burtz block is in no way like a original Model A engine oiling. Your builder needs to read all of the guides that are on Terry’s website modelaengine.com.
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Old 04-05-2021, 03:34 AM   #297
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The oil filter kit that you have a link to WILL NOT work with a Burtz block. The Burtz block is in no way like a original Model A engine oiling. Your builder needs to read all of the guides that are on Terry’s website modelaengine.com.
Agreed. He should find another engine builder, IMO.
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Old 04-05-2021, 10:03 AM   #298
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Something to keep in mind on the oil pumps, while the motor is set up to run a full pressurized system, the oil pump drive mechanism is marginal.
The stock Mod "A" had a transfer pump, not a pressure pump.
If you attempt to run too much oil pressure, it will prematurely wear the stock drive unit.
I have found a moderate pressure works well with stock drive assembly. If you think you are going racing it is wise to use a pump driven off the cam or a belt from crank.

John
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:31 PM   #299
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The oil filter kit that you have a link to WILL NOT work with a Burtz block. The Burtz block is in no way like a original Model A engine oiling. Your builder needs to read all of the guides that are on Terry’s website modelaengine.com.
The engine was a Ford, not a Burtz.
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Old 04-05-2021, 04:27 PM   #300
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris, You started this thread, I assumed it was for a Burtz block.
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Old 04-05-2021, 05:32 PM   #301
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Chris, You started this thread, I assumed it was for a Burtz block.
Ditto.
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Old 04-05-2021, 06:59 PM   #302
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Something to keep in mind on the oil pumps, while the motor is set up to run a full pressurized system, the oil pump drive mechanism is marginal.
The stock Mod "A" had a transfer pump, not a pressure pump.
If you attempt to run too much oil pressure, it will prematurely wear the stock drive unit.
I have found a moderate pressure works well with stock drive assembly. If you think you are going racing it is wise to use a pump driven off the cam or a belt from crank.

John
Hey John,
Do you have any source info to share as to who makes a CAM driven pump ?
I know that you make race engines (B-Ville, etc) , so what pressure is TOO much for this Ford drive mechanism, ie- 55lbs ?
Is there a substitute drive that is more durable... in place of the STOCK ford equipment ?

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Old 04-05-2021, 09:35 PM   #303
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When Ford started running pressurised bearings in the B engine, what pressure did they run? Not much. I believe the early V8s only ran about 11 psi. I have a diamond B engine in one of my cars and the oil pressure warning light trips on at 9 psi. I don't know what it runs while operating but I don't think it is much more. When the engine is hot and idling, the light flickers.
I believe that there is too much emphasis on high oil pressure. Look at the trial engine Terry had built and they left out a plug from the main oil gallery, resulting in very little pressure. It survived all attempts to destroy it, yet here we are asking whether 50 psi is OK. I think I'll be aiming at about 25 psi. That should give the bearings plenty and preserve the drive gears. If they were to fail, you would have zero pressure immediately but the bottom end will likely survive because the engine would stop with no drive to the distributor. An automatic protection but a tow home.
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Old 04-05-2021, 09:38 PM   #304
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Rick,
no source I have seen for the cam driven pump assy, I have made a few but gets pretty expensive.
Pumps are easy, Aviad, Barnes, Dailey, too many to list.

I haven't put much thought into the drive mechanism, hmm, maybe.

Stock drive, I don't know what is too much. I run about 30 hot/cold.

FWIW, the Model "B" motor did not run pressure, the oil galley has a pretty big hole to dump the excess oil out.

J
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Old 04-05-2021, 09:41 PM   #305
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When Ford started running pressurised bearings in the B engine, what pressure did they run? Not much. I believe the early V8s only ran about 11 psi. I have a diamond B engine in one of my cars and the oil pressure warning light trips on at 9 psi. I don't know what it runs while operating but I don't think it is much more. When the engine is hot and idling, the light flickers.
I believe that there is too much emphasis on high oil pressure. Look at the trial engine Terry had built and they left out a plug from the main oil gallery, resulting in very little pressure. It survived all attempts to destroy it, yet here we are asking whether 50 psi is OK. I think I'll be aiming at about 25 psi. That should give the bearings plenty and preserve the drive gears. If they were to fail, you would have zero pressure immediately but the bottom end will likely survive because the engine would stop with no drive to the distributor. An automatic protection but a tow home.
it will not stop if the bottom tang that drives the pump breaks off.

J
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:37 PM   #306
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it will not stop if the bottom tang that drives the pump breaks off.

J
I agree.
The dist is driven off the cam.
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:45 PM   #307
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The old "basic rule" was that 10 psi of oil pressure was needed for every 1000 RPM.

Under the old rule, you should have 25 psi for 2500 RPM.

The basic rule is no longer applicable with modern metallurgy and lubricants.

One thing that may have helped the low oil pressure problem is that the "New Engine" connecting rod journals are cross-drilled and this provides 2 places where oil can enter the bearing ensuring an adequate supply of oil.

During the 1st day of engineering evaluation testing of the "New Engine", we used cheap semi-synthetic motor oil, ran it for 6 hours at 3100 RPM (75 MPH), had 4 psi oil pressure because of an open 5/16 inch diameter hole venting the main oil galley, had an average water temperature of 190 degrees F, and had an average oil temperature of 263 degrees F. On the 2nd day of testing at a more realistic speed of 2100 RPM, we again had 4 psi oil pressure, had an average water temperature of 168 degrees F, once had an accidental head temperature at the spot where we were measuring water temperature of 260 degrees F when we inadvertently ran it out of water, and an average oil temperature of 180 degrees F. On the 3rd day of testing, the engine was in a car and climbed Overlook Mountain that is west of Boulder CO. A chart of the test data can be found in the September 2020 update.
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Old 04-06-2021, 07:53 PM   #308
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Likely already been asked but will the new block pass fine point judging? Wayne
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Old 04-07-2021, 12:12 AM   #309
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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it will not stop if the bottom tang that drives the pump breaks off.

J
We were talking about wear on the skew gears at the cam shaft. If they fail, the engine will stop but like you say if the failure was at the tang, it would not and the bottom end would be toast.
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Old 04-07-2021, 12:16 AM   #310
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

No it will not pass fine point judging.

Let someone else enjoy all the fun of fine point judging.

These engines are made for driving.
See you on the road.

Richard
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Old 04-07-2021, 02:27 AM   #311
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Likely already been asked but will the new block pass fine point judging? Wayne
Hey Wayne,
It SHOULD PASS.
I’d like to hear why it should not pass ...anyone !
I understand the idea of judging.
But honestly how many judged cars have ‘hidden’ ... alterations/ improvements... and still pass. Nothing against restorers. Dedicated / hardcore restorer is to be respected for their dedication to faithful Ford original parts and specs.
Pragmatic experienced model A owners, who are sick tired of throwing tons of $ at 90 yr old blocks... should not be disregarded penalized for using a block that will allow them more safety and interest in our hobby.
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Old 04-07-2021, 04:54 AM   #312
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Disclosure: my car is certainly a driver, but IMO if the new block is very hard to tell externally from a stocker, it should pass judging and only be a factor as a tie-breaker. That would require the owner's honesty, though.
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Old 04-07-2021, 09:11 AM   #313
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

That is a problem with the internet, everyone has looked at the castings for the block, including the judges. If you know where to look, you can identify the differences.
Same for the racing community, the competition directors have all the pictures.

Sorry, just an observation, J
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Old 04-07-2021, 09:28 AM   #314
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We were talking about wear on the skew gears at the cam shaft. If they fail, the engine will stop but like you say if the failure was at the tang, it would not and the bottom end would be toast.
Just to be clear, I did not mention the gears. But, it is an issue with wear.
Some come out of motors and the gear has razor sharp teeth.

Ever notice how you need to keep tabs on the timing? Other than point wear, point cam wear, the drive gear teeth will also wear and contribute to timing losses.

The oil pressure rule of thumb of 10psi per 1000 rpm is not necessarily right or wrong. It depends on the application and the design of the bearings. The Model "A" and "B" are designed for very low pressure. The testing of the engine with very low pressures just confirms that fact.

FWIW, I ran 90psi in the race car once by accident. Not paying too much attention to the regulator after cleaning and reassembly. No problems or leaks.
But I did turn the pressure back down once I noticed it.

All good, lets see some of the motors on the road, John
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Old 04-07-2021, 06:52 PM   #315
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Chris, You started this thread, I assumed it was for a Burtz block.
Much like I assumed that his filter would work for a Ford block.
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Old 04-07-2021, 07:48 PM   #316
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Much like I assumed that his filter would work for a Ford block.
And did it. Don’t understand your response !
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:33 PM   #317
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And did it. Don’t understand your response !
It is in response to the new oil filter kit three pages back.
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Old 04-14-2021, 09:13 PM   #318
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The CORRECT&RIGHT NATIONAL oil seal part numbers are: 415953N,
455035N,
455953N,
These are ALL high-temperature (polyacrylate) double lip spring loaded,
Arnold Chivers has specified C/R 39930 which's also double lipped spring loaded design &with a polyacrylate lip.Both C/R &NATIONAL are USA made,
With C/R being a part of SKF&NATIONAL a part of FM(Federal Mogul).
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Old 04-15-2021, 10:46 AM   #319
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The National 415035 seal specified in the "Builders Guide" has a nitrile lip and is a commonly stocked part.

If you look on page 58 in the National Seal Catalog (https://www.timken.com/wp-content/up...talog_7707.pdf), you will find many seals for a 4-inch diameter shaft and a 5-inch diameter housing bore that will work in the "New Engine".

The 415035 seal is in bold type which means that it is readily available.

The 415953N, 455035N, and 455953N seals have lips made from Acrylates that can withstand higher temperatures than nitrile. These seals are not in bold type and have an asterisk next to their number. At the bottom of the page, the asterisk is explained as "Non-Stock Item, Special Order".
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Old 04-15-2021, 12:10 PM   #320
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I had the pleasure of meeting with Terry and inspecting the new engine next to the original block he’s patterned it after. Looked at what I thought was a flaw in the new block, I then compared it to the original right next to it. They were identical! The internals were finely cast and machined. I dare anyone to see the difference externally. For those that doubt me, I have seen new cylinder heads with a rougher texture than original castings, and slightly undersized but this block is identical I can tell you!
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Old 04-19-2021, 03:26 PM   #321
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

norcallal this conversation reminds me of a similar one several years ago, of a restorer on here that built a '30 Roadster with a new Brookville body.

Most people including me, probably wouldn't spot the differences off hand with an original body.

They tell me they are pretty good!
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:48 AM   #322
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It is absolutely disappointing to hear that this work had to be taken to China. I use a very competent US owned iron foundry in Mexico for a lot of our work and they are very good. Whether or not they are up to casting an engine block... Not sure. But did anyone try and contact Mesa Castings?
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:35 AM   #323
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Just a quick comment Terry Burtz attempted this project with several american foundry companies...very poor luck...I'll let Terry take it from here! Ernie in Arizona
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Old 05-04-2021, 11:50 AM   #324
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The iron foundries here are one thing another are the crankshaft and the connecting rods. Add up the cost of having all of the parts cast or forged and machined and I think you will find it will cost many times over what it would be compared to having the work done in China. Initially this project was intended to be affordable and close to the cost of rebuilding an old original Model A block crank and rods. The new engine looks exactly like the original old block with much better components internally with readily available parts and advanced design. I can tell you from first hand experience of owning and having a running Burtz engine, it is an ideal Model A engine replacement. Not only is the block crankshaft and rods far superior to an old Model A engine, but the support from Terry Burtz and the rest of his team is top notch. If you have a problem with your new Burtz kit, Terry is only a phone call away and Terry will stay with you helping for as long as it takes. I can tell everyone that from first hand experience.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:42 PM   #325
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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It is absolutely disappointing to hear that this work had to be taken to China. I use a very competent US owned iron foundry in Mexico for a lot of our work and they are very good. Whether or not they are up to casting an engine block... Not sure. But did anyone try and contact Mesa Castings?
Ok, you’re ‘disappointed.
I think WE ALL get that.

Mexico, china...China, mexico ??

What is your point, as NEITHER is USA...



Are you saying Mexico is same same as... Made in USA ...what ?

I’m Very disappointed that china HAD to be used because IT has the resources, the tech and skilled labor... to do this work... and USA DID NOT.

HOWEVER , here I sit looking at a beautiful BURTZ engine.

Last edited by hardtimes; 05-04-2021 at 05:48 PM. Reason: ......
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:31 PM   #326
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Thank Terry for that Beautiful Engine...It means that the Model A Ford has more of a future a generation or more down the road than if the Bertz Engine did not exist! It does mean that cars could well be running and enjoyed by our grand children when they are our age...Just my humbe opinion...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:40 PM   #327
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Any chance of seeing one of these new engines being displayed at the upcoming MARC National in OshKosh, Wi this June?
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:54 PM   #328
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I would like to see videos of what people have built with the new Engine Kit. it would also be great to her them run.

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Old 05-04-2021, 09:06 PM   #329
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Any chance of seeing one of these new engines being displayed at the upcoming MARC National in OshKosh, Wi this June?
Yes there is that chance. And there will be a seminar at the convention with Terry Burtz and the new engine, including at least 2 cars there with a running Burtz engine, both of which I was told will be driven there from their home.
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Old 05-26-2021, 02:39 PM   #330
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

UPDATE
As engines are being built, the "Builders Guide" is evolving. The latest revision of the "Builders Guide" is dated 24 May 2021 and can be found at www.modelaengine.com.

We will be displaying the "New Engine" kit at Oshkosh in the B. F. Carter room from Tuesday, June 8, through Friday, June 11, and I'll be giving a seminar on Friday afternoon.

There should be cars driven to the convention with the "New Engine".

There is a discount for MARC members that have registered for the convention.

The 2nd production run is scheduled for delivery in August 2021.
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Old 05-26-2021, 05:44 PM   #331
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry
Would it be possible to highlight recent updates or list specifically what’s been changed so we can easily know what we need to check on already built engines using an early version of the guides


Thanks
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Old 05-26-2021, 07:48 PM   #332
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Ok, you’re ‘disappointed.
I think WE ALL get that.
I’m Very disappointed that china HAD to be used because IT has the resources, the tech and skilled labor... to do this work... and USA DID NOT.
THAT STATEMENT IS BULLSHIT!!!!!!
The explanation gets political so that is all I am saying.
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Old 05-26-2021, 08:05 PM   #333
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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It is absolutely disappointing to hear that this work had to be taken to China. I use a very competent US owned iron foundry in Mexico for a lot of our work and they are very good. Whether or not they are up to casting an engine block... Not sure. But did anyone try and contact Mesa Castings?
Does the engine use castings from China? I sure hope not. We have Cast Iron foundry's in this country that are experts and I know of at least one that focuses on engine blocks. The problem is they are more expensive over China but worth every penny. All you have to do is look at the chemistry and microstructure of China Iron and it's a no brainer.
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Old 05-26-2021, 08:50 PM   #334
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The blocks were cast and machined in China. If you follow the development of this engine and Todd Buttermore's (?) efforts, you will see that they have tried to have it done in the US but couldn't get a foundry competent enough to cast the blocks while the Chinese were all over it.
Heaven help us all if a war were to break out
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Old 05-26-2021, 08:59 PM   #335
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Model A Ron,

The new engine parts are made in China using factories that use the same modern iron, ductile iron, forged steel, and Quality Assurance that is used in modern engines.

Please see www.modelaengine.com for more information.
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Old 05-26-2021, 09:08 PM   #336
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Dennis Kliesen, post 329 above, is on his way to Oshkosh WI for the MARC National Convention driving with a "New Engine" in his car.

This afternoon, he sent the following email that is pasted below.

For those of you that didn’t already know, I’m inRoute to Oshkosh WI, for the National Convention held June 7th to 11th. I made my departure from Mission Viejo Tuesday at 2:30 PM. I had a bit of a delay when I arrived in Las Vegas. My son and his wife were enjoying a week early wedding anniversary without V the kids. So I stopped and we spent time with them and walking. Henrietta is sure getting a lot of attention, all age groups waving honking thumbs up etc. Even the truck drivers honk flash their lights and wave. Everybody driving faster than I have been very courteous. So it’s been a pleasant trip so far.

I usually stop for gas between 110 and 150 miles. At first the new engine needed a bit of oil when I gassed up. So I promptly added to bring the level up to full. This last time it didn’t require any oil added, and that is in Beaver,UT. My MPG is averaging right at 19. I’m driving in 3rd gear and direct with the Mitchell gear splitter. I average between 50 to 55 out on the road. It was hot yesterday, but was cooling in the afternoon when I passed through Baker, CA. 91° when I passed through.

I haven’t taken very many pictures, not a whole lot to see. I’ll be passing through the most scenic of Utah soon and I’ll be stopping for pictures.

The new Burtz engine has been flawless so far. Not a drop leaking anywhere. This engine runs butter smooth. I really have to watch the speedometer beings I can’t tell how fast I’m going by the way the engine sounds. I’m extremely pleased with the new engine.

Have a great week everybody!

Dennis
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Old 05-26-2021, 10:38 PM   #337
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Model A Ron,

The new engine parts are made in China using factories that use the same modern iron, ductile iron, forged steel, and Quality Assurance that is used in modern engines.

Please see www.modelaengine.com for more information.
Thanks Terry
I work in Global Automotive Supplier Quality and I have seen some good stuff out of China but a lot of bad as well. Ask them for full Material Certs including the Chemistry and Mechanical properties of the material. They may want to add a charge for the certs but it also keeps them honest. If anything fails have a local Metallurgical lab do an investigation. I understand all to well the cost advantage of China so I do understand your decision.

On a different note I have not had issues with Mexico Foundry's. Most of the Companies in Mexico are the factories that were once in the USA so that may be an option in the future.

Thanks for doing what your doing. This is truly an amazing project and the Model A world needs more people like yourself.

Regards,
Ron

Last edited by Model A Ron; 05-26-2021 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 05-26-2021, 10:44 PM   #338
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Dennis Kliesen, post 329 above, is on his way to Oshkosh WI for the MARC National Convention driving with a "New Engine" in his car.

This afternoon, he sent the following email that is pasted below.

For those of you that didn’t already know, I’m inRoute to Oshkosh WI, for the National Convention held June 7th to 11th. I made my departure from Mission Viejo Tuesday at 2:30 PM. I had a bit of a delay when I arrived in Las Vegas. My son and his wife were enjoying a week early wedding anniversary without V the kids. So I stopped and we spent time with them and walking. Henrietta is sure getting a lot of attention, all age groups waving honking thumbs up etc. Even the truck drivers honk flash their lights and wave. Everybody driving faster than I have been very courteous. So it’s been a pleasant trip so far.

I usually stop for gas between 110 and 150 miles. At first the new engine needed a bit of oil when I gassed up. So I promptly added to bring the level up to full. This last time it didn’t require any oil added, and that is in Beaver,UT. My MPG is averaging right at 19. I’m driving in 3rd gear and direct with the Mitchell gear splitter. I average between 50 to 55 out on the road. It was hot yesterday, but was cooling in the afternoon when I passed through Baker, CA. 91° when I passed through.

I haven’t taken very many pictures, not a whole lot to see. I’ll be passing through the most scenic of Utah soon and I’ll be stopping for pictures.

The new Burtz engine has been flawless so far. Not a drop leaking anywhere. This engine runs butter smooth. I really have to watch the speedometer beings I can’t tell how fast I’m going by the way the engine sounds. I’m extremely pleased with the new engine.

Have a great week everybody!

Dennis

Wonderful report
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Old 05-27-2021, 06:27 AM   #339
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The blocks were cast and machined in China. If you follow the development of this engine and Todd Buttermore's (?) efforts, you will see that they have tried to have it done in the US but couldn't get a foundry competent enough to cast the blocks while the Chinese were all over it.
Heaven help us all if a war were to break out

I've avoided posting in this thread but I'm not sure where you got the idea that I can't get blocks cast here. I have 3 foundries near me that can do it and the one I am using has made beautiful 3 main and 5 main iron block castings. I have posted pictures mostly on Facebook, and I believe even on Ford Barn. Let's make sure we keep to the facts.


Tod
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Old 05-27-2021, 02:23 PM   #340
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

There has been some discussion on another forum regarding the choice of rear main seal and should the garter spring be removed.

The seal that we used in the Engineering Evaluation Engine was a National 415035 with the garter spring removed and we had no leaks.

National 415035 and 37939 seals both have an outside diameter of 5.004 inches and are a press-fit into the 4.999 inch housing bore of the "New Model A Engine".

The National 37939 seal has a lip made from Teflon and it does not have a garter spring.

The National 37939 seal is used in Detroit Diesel 6V53 engines as a rear main seal.

The Detroit Diesel part number is 8926902.

The seal and redi-sleeve is $20.01 at the following website (store.reliableindustries.com) under their part number A-8926902.

The redi-sleeve is used to repair a groove worn in the shaft and is not needed in the "New Model A Engine".
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Old 05-28-2021, 12:10 PM   #341
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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................

On a different note I have not had issues with Mexico Foundry's. Most of the Companies in Mexico are the factories that were once in the USA so that may be an option in the future.

Thanks for doing what your doing. This is truly an amazing project and the Model A world needs more people like yourself.

Regards,
Ron
I'm retired from John Deere Harvester Wks.. Most of Deere's iron castings are still being made at the JD Waterloo Wks. and are of excellent quality. A lot of other JD foundry work comes out of Mexico and it too is first class. Deere wouldn't accept anything less they pride themselves on quality.

The good ole' USA isn't down and out yet!
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Old 05-28-2021, 01:16 PM   #342
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Crankcase compression: I have not read all the postings in this thread, I have not read all the engineering data. Has there been any discussion on crankcase compression ? All modern engines, at least the last 50+ years, Have some form of Positive Crankcase Ventilation. What is the thinking on this new engine ? I know I addressed it 30+ years ago on my own modified B engine with a PCV valve. All engines have a certain amount of "leakdown" Thanks, Rick.
I modified my a engine to have a proper functioning pvc and ill be doing the same for the Burtz block that I'll be building for my mums sport coupe, I drilled a hole in the back of the block to take a pcv grommet (physically as clos to the opposite side of the engine as I could put it from the fill tube/ breather so the pcv can pull the fumes across the crankcase) and machined up a stand off tube to let the crankcase and valve chamber be able to breathe, the stand off tube was also higher than the oil level could go in the valvechamber to reduce the chance of oil draining through it, the set-up works really well, my town sedan doesn't smell fumey or burn oil


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They are harder to fit up on a RHD car.
Arnold is right, The filter is made to fit up with a stock manifold and carb, as well as an alloy manifold and down draft carb like a 97, as well as the engine pans.
Lawrie
They are hard to make rhd with an oil filter, this is the set i made with my dad for my town sedan


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Old 05-29-2021, 06:27 AM   #343
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I modified my a engine to have a proper functioning pvc and ill be doing the same for the Burtz block that I'll be building for my mums sport coupe, I drilled a hole in the back of the block to take a pcv grommet (physically as clos to the opposite side of the engine as I could put it from the fill tube/ breather so the pcv can pull the fumes across the crankcase) and machined up a stand off tube to let the crankcase and valve chamber be able to breathe, the stand off tube was also higher than the oil level could go in the valvechamber to reduce the chance of oil draining through it, the set-up works really well, my town sedan doesn't smell fumey or burn oil


They are hard to make rhd with an oil filter, this is the set i made with my dad for my town sedan


Where do you pull fresh air from?
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Old 05-29-2021, 06:28 AM   #344
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Where do you pull fresh air from?
Fresh air gets pulled in through the oil filler/breather
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Old 05-29-2021, 06:44 AM   #345
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What is the benefit of fresh air in the crankcase?
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Old 05-29-2021, 07:12 AM   #346
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What is the benefit of fresh air in the crankcase?
If you have a pcv pulling a vacuum in the crankcase there needs to be a way for fresh to enter or you can start sucking in seals and gaskets
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:50 AM   #347
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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What is the benefit of fresh air in the crankcase?
Positive Crankcase Ventilation removes blow-by gases, water vapor (byproduct of combustion and condensation), and fuel vapors (from cold starts). This helps reduce sludge formation. It also helps people feel good about their modification.

One thing often overlooked is that the air entering the crankcase should be filtered. Otherwise you are drawing dust into your crankcase. The original vent cap is not a very good filter.
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:08 AM   #348
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If you have a pcv pulling a vacuum in the crankcase there needs to be a way for fresh to enter or you can start sucking in seals and gaskets
I can see that a Model A might not be made for crankcase vacuum. I don't think that engines that use pcv valves and such have paths for fresh air to enter, though.
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Old 06-02-2021, 09:33 PM   #349
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The "New Engine Kit" along with an original cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods will be on display at the MARC National Convention in Oshkosh, WI.

We will be in the B.F. Carter Room that is across the hallway from the Hospitality Room and I will be happy to answer any question or discuss any concern.

A modified Model A oil pump that delivers increased volume, builders guides, Secrets of Speed Magazines, and several other parts that I manufacture will be on display.

On Friday afternoon, June 11, I will give a seminar on the "New Model A Engine Kit".

Dennis Kliesen has assembled an engine using the "New Engine Kit", has driven over 2000 miles traveling to Oshkosh, and will be there to tell you about his trip and answer questions.

Another "New Engine Kit" is in car #35 for the Great Race and has accumulated about 1000 miles.

One "New Engine Kit" using a "Miller Hi-Speed" head was tested on a dynamometer and it developed 170 lb-ft at 2800 RPM, and 110 HP at 3300 RPM.

Please bring your questions, concerns, measuring equipment, and mating parts for fit checks.

In preparation for Oshkosh, please see www.modelaengine.com
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Old 06-03-2021, 02:58 AM   #350
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When is the next engine shipment going to be available?
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Old 06-11-2021, 08:59 PM   #351
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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When is the next engine shipment going to be available?
The next shipment is currently in production and should be available in the US by early August. Ocean freight schedules are still somewhat unpredictable though. We'll have more info in early to mid-July.
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Old 06-12-2021, 02:33 AM   #352
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Guys,
just wondering if some one who has a new engine running using a Stipe oil pump can you please tell me what oil pressure they are producing, using 35/40psi or 50/55psi pressure relief valve spring, and also if they have had to reduce oil pressure at all?
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Old 06-12-2021, 08:34 AM   #353
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I have the new Terry Burtz engine with a Stipe pump and have the lower relief green spring installed in the pump. I also have a external adjustable relief made by Scat Volkswagen. I have the pressure lowered to reduce strain on the pump drive and camshaft gears. I have over 2800 miles on this engine since it was built and no problems.
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:50 AM   #354
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by oldpete View Post
Hi Guys,
just wondering if some one who has a new engine running using a Stipe oil pump can you please tell me what oil pressure they are producing, using 35/40psi or 50/55psi pressure relief valve spring, and also if they have had to reduce oil pressure at all?
I use a 35-40 Stipe Oil Pump on our 5-Main Engine.

The Engine has a Miller OHV Conversion, We hame an Earl’s Remote Adapter with a WIX 51085 Filter, the adapter has an 1/8 NPT output that oils the head, and we use Valoline VR-1 20W-50 oil. There is no internal or external pressure adjustment.

The engine runs with just over 30 PSI Oil Pressure, at start up, running warm, and at idle a when warm (165 degrees) pressure is just over 20, maybe 22 PSI.
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Old 06-13-2021, 01:50 AM   #355
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi dennisklisen, thanks for your reply, what oil pressure did you have prior to using the Scat adjustable relief set up and what oil pressure do you have now?
Regards Pete
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:16 AM   #356
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Pete, I had 40+ psi @2200 rpm warm oil. About 35 psi at 1500 rpm warm oil. With the Scat Volkswagen adjustable external valve I have 20+ psi from idle increasing to cruising speed 60+ mph. At a slow idle the pressure with warm oil is about 10 psi. There are 2 different plungers and 2 springs that are included with the adjustable valve package. I think it works much better with the plunger than a ball bearing on the seat as some have tried using. The pressure setting is consistent with a plunger. You might have to find a different spring than what is included to achieve the desired pressure setting. The adjustment screw only has about 1/4” of adjustment. The nut on the adjustment screw to lock the screw leaks unless a modification is made to incorporate the use of an oring. It’s a matter of trying different springs to get that desired pressure requiring a lot of time and patience. It’s not a perfect solution but I was able to accomplish what I wanted without dropping the pan and fiddling with the relief in the pump. Make sure you have the green spring in the Stipe pump if you are trying to get a lower relief setting. The primary reason for lower pressure was to reduce the amount of strain on the pump drive gear and the camshaft gear.

Last edited by denniskliesen; 06-14-2021 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:18 PM   #357
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks for the info Dennis, I have just about finished assembling my new engine, I am using the Stipe oil pump with the 35-40psi pressure relief spring. Unfortunately Scat will not send parts to Australia as our government want them to collect and remit a goods & services tax. What I have done is install an adjustable needle valve with a tee piece splitting the main oil return pipe out of the oil filter diverting any excess oil pressure into the side plate, sorry I cannot attach a photo, too dam hard.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:44 PM   #358
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by oldpete View Post
Thanks for the info Dennis, I have just about finished assembling my new engine, I am using the Stipe oil pump with the 35-40psi pressure relief spring. Unfortunately Scat will not send parts to Australia as our government want them to collect and remit a goods & services tax. What I have done is install an adjustable needle valve with a tee piece splitting the main oil return pipe out of the oil filter diverting any excess oil pressure into the side plate, sorry I cannot attach a photo, too dam hard.
What do you need?
I'll get it and send it to you. You can pay me when you get it if you like.

Paul
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:29 AM   #359
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Paul,
thanks for your generous offer, but the set up I have done will relieve any high oil pressure issue that I more than likely will have in my new engine. Pete
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Old 06-18-2021, 05:39 PM   #360
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Terry,
Yesterday picked up my Burtz flywheel. Nicely machined !
Question… is the pressure plate bolt hole pattern … for a 9 inch 50s pressure plate. Standard ring gear use and crank bearing ??
Nice piece of heavy metal… well done !
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Old 06-18-2021, 08:13 PM   #361
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Pasted below is the section of the "Builders Guide" that addresses the flywheel. The latest "Builders Guide" can be found under "Guides" at www.modelaengine.com



12) Flywheel
The optional 30 pound flywheel is machined to use the Ford V-8 9- inch Long design pressure plate (48-7563 or 09A-7563) and is balanced. We do not recommend the use of the 8N-7563 tractor pressure plate.
Make sure that the pressure plate is balanced separately from the flywheel. If the already balanced flywheel is needed as a holding fixture to balance the pressure plate, only take material off of the pressure plate to obtain balance. The new flywheel is machined to accept the original Ford shoulder bolts (350433-S) that attach the pressure plate to the flywheel. Longer 5/16-18 shoulder bolts can be used. Shoulder bolts are much stronger in shear than fully threaded bolts. These bolts should use lock washers and we recommend a torque of 18 lb-ft.
The new flywheel does not come with a ring gear installed because the beveled teeth on the ring gear need to be at the rear if using a Model A starter, and at the front if using a gear reduction starter.
We do not recommend the use of a "barrel" tractor starter drive instead of an original Bendix because the "barrel" drive has a shorter throw (distance that the pinion gear moves between rest and extension), and it will not engage the ring gear completely.
The new flywheel does not come with a pilot bearing because some people prefer the porous bronze oil impregnated bushing while others prefer a ball bearing.
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Old 06-20-2021, 02:34 AM   #362
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks Terry !
Having trouble getting info on WHO to contact , that is making the special bolts… for outside oiling system.
Got a name/ number for a guy ( nettles). The number is disconnected.
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Old 06-20-2021, 03:18 PM   #363
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Mr Lampl ,
THANKS , for all you do for us !!
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Old 06-25-2021, 08:20 PM   #364
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Flywheels are being picked up in LA right now.

What is the word on engine batch 2 arrival ?

Dennis Kleason has driven his new Burtz engine across the country and halfway home in California and we hear he is "Broke Down".

It had nothing to do with our "Modern A", Burtz engines. It seems to have something to do with not having a Phillips screw driver to work on the coil. Dennis, better stick with those tried and true slotted screws Model A's came with.

Richard
Anaheim CA
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Old 06-26-2021, 10:51 AM   #365
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I arrived home yesterday evening after making the trip to Oshkosh, WI MARC Convention 2021. From there I traveled to Plymouth, WI to Stipe Machine, Specialty Motor Cams. Continuing to the north end of Lake Michigan. From there I traveled down to the Gilmore Car Museum in Hickory Corners, MI. I traveled to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI where there were very few Model As and lot of other cars. I then traveled south stopping at the Corvette museum in Bowling Green, KY. From there to Alabama to visit family. Continued west to Colorado where my coil began to fail. I made it to about 100 miles from Denver where I got towed to Bert’s Model Store where I met Steve, and a big hats off to Steve for helping me get some parts provided to change and running. He also helped educate me on Colorado’s ethanol creating problems. From that point on I never had problems. None of the problems I had were with the Burtz block crank or rods. Currently I have over 6,300 miles on my new Burtz engine.
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Old 06-26-2021, 12:15 PM   #366
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I arrived home yesterday evening after making the trip to Oshkosh, WI MARC Convention 2021. From there I traveled to Plymouth, WI to Stipe Machine, Specialty Motor Cams. Continuing to the north end of Lake Michigan. From there I traveled down to the Gilmore Car Museum in Hickory Corners, MI. I traveled to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI where there were very few Model As and lot of other cars. I then traveled south stopping at the Corvette museum in Bowling Green, KY. From there to Alabama to visit family. Continued west to Colorado where my coil began to fail. I made it to about 100 miles from Denver where I got towed to Bert’s Model Store where I met Steve, and a big hats off to Steve for helping me get some parts provided to change and running. He also helped educate me on Colorado’s ethanol creating problems. From that point on I never had problems. None of the problems I had were with the Burtz block crank or rods. Currently I have over 6,300 miles on my new Burtz engine.
What was Steve’s recommendation or comments regarding the ethanol fuel?
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Old 06-26-2021, 12:49 PM   #367
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Diesel fuel, in a small amount. The flash point is higher from diesel while gasoline is lower and the alcohol is even lower, add to that the ambient temperatures of 100° and higher complicates matters for a cast iron carburetor, cast iron intake, heated up from a cast iron exhaust bolted to it. Your results may differ where you live and the gas that’s available where you drive. On my trip whenever straight gasoline was available, and that was in more locations than I ever imagined there to be, then I bought the higher priced straight gasoline.
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Old 06-26-2021, 03:44 PM   #368
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The difference in performance with straight gasoline over the Ethanol laced junk is different as night and day.

Last edited by Jeff/Illinois; 08-02-2021 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 07-08-2021, 08:13 PM   #369
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Great Race Update: We had approximately 1,200 miles on our engine when we put the Vicky on the trailer to leave for the Great Race, and when we returned home, we had an an additional 3,100 miles. The Great Race mile were pretty intense, very hard acceleration to ~2500 RPM (can’t have a Tachometer) through First and Second gear, with numerous Speed changes, and periods of constant speeds. Each Stage (Day);of the race considered of 5 or 6 “Legs” where times were measured to the second. The Great Race consisted of a Trophy Run and 9 Stages, as we drove from San Antonio, Texas to Greenville, South Carolina. We finished the race 40th in a group of 128 participants.

The engine ran very well, no problems, I did add a half quart of oil mid-way through the race as a precaution, not a concern. We now have about 4500 miles on the engine, and we do have a very minor oil lead, a few drips from the rear main. After the first day, we did have a minor leak, either from a main bolt or the oil fill tube. I cleaned it off, and it did not return as I monitored it throughout the rally. I am not concerned with the minor leak, as noted, a half a quart in over 3,000 miles really isn’t a problem.

The engine has performed well. In San Antonio, the temperature was above 100 Degrees, and I think, with matching humidity. In freeway stop and go traffic, the temperature did get to 190-195 when stopped (we have 160 thermostat), and would cool to ~180 when moving with engine at higher RPM and more air movement. The engine ran cooler the rest of the rally as the ambient temperature was not as high, and we were constantly moving. The oil pressure throughout the rally was in the 20 to 30 PSI range, never a concern (Stipe Pump with an external Oil Filter). The engine starts right up, idles smooth, accelerates very well, and continues to run smoothly throughout different RPMS.

I’m a little disappointed we didn’t finish with a better score, I think the driver was the problem, not the engine. Great people and friends to spend time with.

I also visited a classmate and his 1941 Stearman. Yep, got to fly her!
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File Type: jpg 2804A1DF-A1F5-4D48-A951-331D50598704.jpg (55.3 KB, 76 views)
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Last edited by Vicky; 07-09-2021 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:17 AM   #370
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Finishing in the top 1/3 is nothing to be disappointed about. You have accomplished a great achievement. What a great trip and proof of the durability of the new engine. The ride in the Stearman is icing on the cake!
And to everyone reading this, note those sponsors that make the race possible.
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Old 07-09-2021, 11:41 AM   #371
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Vicky
Firstly, congratulations on the impressive results in the Great Race. The results speaks volumes on you ability to put together a solid car to achieve these results with no breakdowns. With the Stipe pump and external oil filter are you running and type of pcv system?

Last edited by PleasantleaFarm; 07-09-2021 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 07-09-2021, 11:58 AM   #372
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Vicky
With the stipe pump and external oil filter are you running and type of pcv system?
No, I did use a Model B Oil Fill Tube, which is a larger diameter. I think the initial oil leak from the tube or main bolt was caused by crankcase pressure, as the race progressed, the rings may have seated better, eliminating this problem.

Last edited by Vicky; 07-09-2021 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:12 PM   #373
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

'Vicky' and Dennis have sure put that motor to the test. Thanks for posting your results.
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Old 07-28-2021, 09:17 PM   #374
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Has there been any word if the August shipment is on the water?
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Old 07-28-2021, 11:56 PM   #375
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Late August on the water. I was told that just yesterday.
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Old 07-29-2021, 12:48 AM   #376
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thank you, it is greatly appreciated
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Old 07-29-2021, 10:11 PM   #377
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Please have patience regarding the delivery of the 2nd production run of "New Engine Kits".

We are working with very large manufacturing facilities in China that typically have production runs of 10,000 parts or more.

Our orders are much smaller, but we are lucky to get the same modern alloys, heat treatment, machine tolerances, surface finishes, and Quality Assurance as the larger orders.

The 2nd production run of the "New Engine Kits" are being manufactured and hopefully, some will be "on the water" by August 20, 2021.

There is a shortage of shipping containers in China and it's hard to book passage on a ship.

The "New Engine Kits" will be disbursed from a warehouse in Hawthorne, CA for west coast customers and a warehouse in Franklin, KY for east coast customers. This is being done to save on shipping costs for our customers.

Once a container is "on the water", those at the top of the waiting list will receive an invoice that includes shipping and sales tax.

When the invoice is paid, the "New Engine Kit" will be released from the warehouse.

We abused the new engine at the 3rd party evaluator and it had no problems. See www.modelaengine.com for test results.

The "Builders Guide" found at www.modelaengine.com changes as engines are being built. Make sure that you are working to the latest revision. The latest revision is dated 26 July 2021.

Dennis Kliesen from Southern CA put one of the new engines in his 29 Tudor and drove to Oshkosh WI for the MARC National, visited relatives on the east coast, and then stopped in CO to see more family. His total trip was over 6700 miles with no problems. Dennis now has over 7800 miles on his engine.

Bob Beers used the new engine with a Steve Serr Miller head in the Great Race in car #35 and placed well. Bob has over 3400 miles on his new engine.

Dave Gerold (Durable Performance) in MN, is also using a Steve Serr head and has over 2500 trouble-free miles.
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Old 07-30-2021, 12:07 AM   #378
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks Terry for the update.
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Old 07-30-2021, 11:16 PM   #379
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Terry- any plans or the possibility of consolidating or setting up a shipment from Hawthorne to Northern Ca? thanks!
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Old 08-01-2021, 10:29 PM   #380
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Hi Terry- any plans or the possibility of consolidating or setting up a shipment from Hawthorne to Northern Ca? thanks!
There are many ways to save money.

10 "New Engine Kits" were picked up by a member of our local Model A club (SCVC) from the warehouse in Hawthorne, CA to save on shipping.

Truck shipping to a commercial address is cheaper than shipping to a residential address.

Buying 5 or more "New Engine Kits" at a time will result in a discount.

Shipping many "New Engine Kits" at a time instead of one at a time will result in a discount.

Sales tax varies with each city in California. You are in Alameda and will have to pay 10.75% sales tax if the "New Engine Kit" is delivered to your home.

If you lived in Oregon, there is no sales tax.

If you are planning on making a trip to pick the "New Engine Kits" at the warehouse, I will commit to 7 "New Engine Kits".

Within 50 miles of your location, there are several Model a clubs and likely members that are on the list for a "New Engine Kit".

These clubs include: Acorn A's, El Camino A's, Diablo A's, Marin A's, Napa Valley A's, SF Bay Area A's, Sonoma A's, and Santa Clara Valley Chapter.

Please contact the clubs above to compile a list to save money.
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Old 08-17-2021, 03:26 PM   #381
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The 2nd run of "New Engine Kits" is in production.

I spoke with John Lampl today regarding the status and other problems.

China is still dealing with Covid problems and all foundries now have to use electricity instead of coal for their furnaces because of air pollution.

The 2nd production run will require several shipping containers to get everything shipped.

The factory in China has promised to deliver the first container load of parts to the container loading facility by September 2, 2021. This container will not hold enough "New Engine Kits" to fill the orders for the 300+ people on the waiting list.

Priority will be given to the 67 people that were on the list before March 30, 2021, and they will receive a "New Engine Kit" at the introductory price. Others on the list after March 30, 2021, will have to pay $3950 for the "New Engine Kit".

John Lampl is trying to increase the quantity for production run #2 so that all orders can be filled and we will have some warehouse stock that we can sell at $3950.

When production run #3 is negotiated, it may be more expensive because electrical furnaces are now required, there is a Covid problem, and the cost of fuel for transportation is near an all-time high.

There are 2 websites for the "New Engine". One is www.modelaengine.com that addresses the technical details, and the other is www.burtzblock.com that is oriented towards marketing, quality assurance, and scheduling.

John Lampl will be publishing delivery updates on www.burtzblock.com.

The attached pictures are of cylinder blocks for production run #2.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 1.jpg (59.2 KB, 199 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 2.jpg (74.5 KB, 190 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 3.jpg (65.1 KB, 187 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 4.jpg (71.5 KB, 187 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 5.jpg (58.9 KB, 190 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 6.jpg (54.6 KB, 195 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 7.jpg (74.3 KB, 184 views)

Last edited by Terry Burtz, Calif; 08-18-2021 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Corrected error.
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Old 08-17-2021, 03:46 PM   #382
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Wow, that radial arm photo brings back memories. Used to operate one back in the 70's at John D.
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Old 08-17-2021, 06:07 PM   #383
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Diesel fuel, in a small amount. The flash point is higher from diesel while gasoline is lower and the alcohol is even lower, add to that the ambient temperatures of 100° and higher complicates matters for a cast iron carburetor, cast iron intake, heated up from a cast iron exhaust bolted to it. Your results may differ where you live and the gas that’s available where you drive. On my trip whenever straight gasoline was available, and that was in more locations than I ever imagined there to be, then I bought the higher priced straight gasoline.
Maybe a little diesel fuel in the tank filled with ethanol fuel will behave differently from when no ethanol is present. Using it with straight petrol is a BIG no-no. It will destroy your engine in very short time. When it burns, a coarse, abrasive grit is produced which grinds the internals of the engine to an early death. I've seen as little as a single tank of fuel with 12% diesel in it cause a motor to start smoking within the tankful.
Straight petrol is available everywhere here and I refuse to use E10 rubbish.
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Old 08-17-2021, 08:51 PM   #384
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Not a choice here in SoCal, same with Colorado I believe. I never did see plain ol gas when I was passing through.
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Old 08-17-2021, 09:09 PM   #385
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Synchro, Btw, how was the trip? Make it back home?
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Old 08-18-2021, 06:08 AM   #386
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Old 08-18-2021, 06:18 AM   #387
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:09 AM   #388
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Every station should have a choice of non ethanol. Why should people have to drive out of their way to get regular gas without the corn crap in it? We’ve gotten way off the subject here of the new Terry Burtz Model A engine.

For the record I have 8500 plus miles on my new engine, still has the Terry Burtz recommended oil pressure at the time of build of 20 psi, and the engine is running the same the day I headed for the Midwest from SoCal.
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:51 PM   #389
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Wow, that radial arm photo brings back memories. Used to operate one back in the 70's at John D.
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:56 PM   #390
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For the record I have 8500 plus miles on my new engine, still has the Terry Burtz recommended oil pressure at the time of build of 20 psi, and the engine is running the same the day I headed for the Midwest from SoCal.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:41 PM   #391
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Synchro, Btw, how was the trip? Make it back home?
Of course I did. I drive a Model A.
There were 2 1928 Chevs, a Rugby (sold over there as a Star) and my Model A. All of the cars had a problem but keeping them going is part of the challenge and the feeling of satisfaction when we get home.
I'll be dining out for a while on our stories.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:46 PM   #392
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I wonder what those workers think about making 90+ year old design blocks? They surely talk about how different they are.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:58 PM   #393
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Yeah and I’m curious what the heck does that 2 cylinder block next to the Burtz blocks go in.
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:30 PM   #394
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Won’t work, they forgot the valves!
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Old 08-19-2021, 08:27 AM   #395
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Won’t work, they forgot the valves!
That is part of a modern engine...
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Old 08-19-2021, 12:08 PM   #396
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Modern? Like a Model B?
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:41 AM   #397
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Modern? Like a Model B?
Neat looking outfit.

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Old 08-21-2021, 08:27 AM   #398
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I'm a 'guessin' you were working at the Dubuque Wks. from the location of your Avatar.

I retired out of Deere Harv. Wks. E. Moline, Combine repair. Combine engines were coming to us out of Dubuque back in those days probably still do.

Maybe we can get the Dubuque Foundry to cast Terry's new engines! I'll speak with the Deere CEO.................
In Waterloo, foundry cast some Iron Dukes for Pontiac way back when. Also assembled motor home chassis for Winnebago for awhile. Maybe the could do A blocks.
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Old 08-21-2021, 09:25 AM   #399
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In Waterloo, foundry cast some Iron Dukes for Pontiac way back when. Also assembled motor home chassis for Winnebago for awhile. Maybe the could do A blocks.
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Old 08-31-2021, 01:52 PM   #400
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Production/Delivery
The 2nd production run of "New Engine Kits" is running late because of government mandates that foundries revert to electric-fired furnaces (as opposed to coal) to reduce emissions. Electric furnaces only have about half the output per unit as their coal counterparts. Further, new Covid outbreaks in China port operations (particularly the port of Ningbo) have slowed the embarkation of containers. This is having a ripple effect on other ports as many volumes are shifting from Ningbo to Shanghai and Qingdao.

Additionally, there is a great shortage of shipping containers in China which contributes to the slowdown of loading operations and results in vessel departure delays. Our current delivery of block kits is scheduled to depart Shanghai on the 2nd of September but now appears to be delayed until September 15th.

The first container will be shipped to Savannah, GA for distribution from our warehouse in Franklin, KY. We expect to ship "New Engine Kits" from the warehouse around the 2nd to 3rd week of October 2021.

The 2nd container should arrive a month or so later in Los Angeles for distribution from our Hawthorne, CA warehouse. I checked today, and there are 44 container ships off the coast of Los Angeles in a holding pattern waiting to unload cargo.



Technical
The "Builders Guide" strongly suggests that home builders utilize the facilities and knowledge of professional engine builders.

The "New Model A Engine" is closer to 2000 technology than it is to 1920's technology, and home builders need to work with engine builders familiar with new engines.

There have been a few cases where home builders and engine builders familiar with 1920's technology don't understand modern insert bearings and the bores that they fit into.

The bores are circular, and the modern inserts are spread at the parting line. Before assembly, the inserts protrude above the parting line, and when assembled, the inserts become flush with the parting line and become circular with the equivalent of a press fit.

The bearing tabs are for locating and are not used to keep the insert from spinning in the bore.

Please don't remove material from the parting plane of the inserts, fail to follow the "Builders Guide" regarding stud clearance, or shim bearing caps because you think that the line boring bar machined oval holes.

The attached pictures are of the 2nd production run.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 8.jpg (42.5 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 9.jpg (42.4 KB, 74 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 10.jpg (42.0 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 11.jpg (30.6 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 12.jpg (27.3 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg Run 2, Picture 13.jpg (33.2 KB, 70 views)
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Old 08-31-2021, 02:40 PM   #401
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What are those flanged items in the flywheel spot in picture #11 (4 of 6)? Flywheels? I don’t see the teeth.
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Old 08-31-2021, 03:52 PM   #402
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

[QUOTE=Terry Burtz, Calif

The "New Model A Engine" is closer to 2000 technology than it is to 1920's technology, and home builders need to work with engine builders familiar with new engines.

There have been a few cases where home builders and engine builders familiar with 1920's technology don't understand modern insert bearings and the bores that they fit into.

The bores are circular, and the modern inserts are spread at the parting line. Before assembly, the inserts protrude above the parting line, and when assembled, the inserts become flush with the parting line and become circular with the equivalent of a press fit.

The bearing tabs are for locating and are not used to keep the insert from spinning in the bore.

Please don't remove material from the parting plane of the inserts, fail to follow the "Builders Guide" regarding stud clearance, or shim bearing caps because you think that the line boring bar machined oval holes.
[/QUOTE]

Wow! It's hard to believe that any engine builder does not know about bearing crush! This is about as basic as it gets, and insert bearings have been around far longer than any current engine builder. Makes one wonder what else they bugger up!
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Old 09-01-2021, 03:14 PM   #403
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Wow! It's hard to believe that any engine builder does not know about bearing crush! This is about as basic as it gets, and insert bearings have been around far longer than any current engine builder. Makes one wonder what else they bugger up!

I was thinking the same, but, wasn't sure i should say it. Thats pretty rudimentary!
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:29 PM   #404
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I put my name on the list!
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:30 PM   #405
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Production run #2 Shipping Status

I spoke with John Lampl today, and he informed me that there is another delay with the first of several containers for production run #2 that is beyond our control. John's words are pasted below.

The immediate production for ocean freight delivery had been postponed from the 5th of Sep (originally) to the 15th and then the 21st.. We were just advised the recent Typhoon "Chanthu" that hit eastern China (shanghai), has caused sailing cancellations including our booking. We have word the next vessel will schedule for around the 5th of October. This will have goods arriving port in the USA the 1st week of Nov. There is nothing we can do but keep trying. The port situation is quite backed up.. We will try to keep everyone updated. Once the container is onboard, things will be more predictable...


New Optional Parts

To enhance the "New Engine Kit", we are offering 3 additional parts that have improvements over stock or aftermarket parts that are currently available. These 3 parts have the stock Model A interfaces and can be used with either a stock Model A engine or with the "New Engine Kit".

Flywheel
We offer a 30-pound flywheel that is drilled for the V-8 pressure plate. The flywheels are in stock at the Hawthorne, CA warehouse and can be sent UPS flat rate for a savings in shipping.

Cylinder Head
We are finalizing the design of a 6.5 to 1 cylinder head. Like the new cylinder block, the exterior of an original production cylinder head was laser scanned to copy every intricate detail and the water flow circuit has been designed for increased flow at exhaust ports #3 and #4. The combustion chamber resembles the combustion chamber in the A-6050-B Police head. This new head will be flat, have the correct appearance, correct length, correct width, and the stud holes will be centered in the bosses. In addition, all 4 water pump attachment holes will be blind so that sealant is not needed. We do not expect to award a production contract until early next year.

Camshaft
We have awarded a manufacturing contract for a new 5 bearing camshaft. It is a "touring" grind with 0.340 inches of lift like a Model B or Stipe camshaft. If you wish to regrind it for more performance or for an OHV, the lobe tips are hardened to a depth of 2 to 3 mm and the remainder of the lobe is hardened to a depth of 1.5 to 2 mm. The new camshaft has passages for additional lubrication. If the new camshaft is used in the "New Engine Kit" there will be 17 pressure fed bearings instead of 16. These camshafts should be ready to ship near the end of November 2021.


Professional Builders vs Home Builders

Professional builders that understand modern engines and follow the "Builders Guide" have thousands of miles on their new engines without problems. Dennis Kliesen has close to 10,000 miles on his engine followed by Bob Beers who finished in the upper 3rd in the Great Race, and Dave Gerold (Durable Performance) who has pulled a trailer while touring.

A few home builders that aren't familiar with modern engines and don't understand or follow the "Builders Guide" are having a variety of problems because they don't understand bearing crush, mistakenly think that the line bore operation can produce oval holes that are not in alignment, wonder why their rear main seal leaks when one side is installed 1/4 inch further than the other side, wonder why runouts are excessive when they are measuring runout with a flimsy dial indicator setup, etc.


Pietenpol

I spoke with the author and proofread a magazine article that is being written regarding the use of the "New Engine Kit" in a Pietenpol airplane. I emphasized that we accept no liability and that there is no guarantee if the new engine is used in an airplane. The new engine is attractive because of the 9 crankshaft bearings that are 2-inch diameter, the 16 or 17 pressurized bearings, and the fact that with a minor alteration, the thrust bearing pulling the airplane forward can have continuous pressurized lubrication instead of crankcase mist found in a stock Model A engine.

Last edited by Terry Burtz, Calif; 09-17-2021 at 01:20 AM. Reason: Correct errors
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Old 09-17-2021, 12:02 AM   #406
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Old 09-17-2021, 12:15 AM   #407
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Is the camshaft from Stipe?

Who designed the combustion chamber of the new head?
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:02 AM   #408
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Pete,
Thanks for finding my error. The camshaft lobes have 0.340 inches of lift like a Model B or Stipe camshaft.

Our parts are being manufactured in ISO-certified manufacturing plants that manufacture 100's of thousands of parts per year for many new OEM applications. To maintain ISO certification, Quality Assurance is at the top of the list and I am unaware of any problems. Perhaps smaller manufacturers have problems. Can you elaborate?

Brian,
The Stipe camshafts do not have the added lubrication passages.

The combustion chamber is a modified A-6050-B chamber.
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Old 09-17-2021, 07:35 AM   #409
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, I spoke with a representative when I visited the web site and asked if there would be an example of your new engine in Hershey and he said he was working on it. Any updates?


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Old 09-17-2021, 08:26 AM   #410
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, will the camshaft be made from of steel or iron?
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Old 09-17-2021, 03:23 PM   #411
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Many modern cast iron cam cores are made off shore and have been for many years. They are plenty adequate for the use they are made for. Herein lies the problem.
These cores are induction hardened. While this process can be very accurate and harden the critical areas only, the heat is usually turned up in order to increase production and as soon as this happens, the core between the lobes is affected and becomes hard in random spots only. The core between the lobes should not be hard.
An easy but time consuming check can be made by Rockwell testing in in 100 spots along a core in between the lobes. Another check can be made by trying to machine in between the lobes with a carbide parting tool for a hot rod grind. This will show the hard spots instantly. This is usually not a problem with overhead valve cams because they are seldom relieved but a core like this can cause early failure in a flathead engine.
If you use a cast iron core that is designed for a specific purpose, there should be no problems assuming you use a lifter material that is compatible. (that can be a whole other ball game)
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Old 09-18-2021, 03:52 PM   #412
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Do you have a price or a rough estimate for the new cam?

David Serrano
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Old 09-21-2021, 04:59 PM   #413
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Frank (emf),
The "New Engine" will not be at Hershey because we won't have any parts to display. The 1st container of the 2nd production run is scheduled to leave China on October 5, 2021 which will be too late for Hershey.



motordr,
The new camshaft will be made of nodular iron which has good damping properties and is the material used in the majority of new engines.



Pete,
Thanks for your comments and the explanation of your concerns. I'm in total agreement with your concerns about turning the heat up to increase production. This may occur in small factories that do not have good quality control. With hardness comes brittleness which is not acceptable if a part deflects under load.

The "New Engine" camshafts are made in a factory where their only product is a variety of nodular iron camshafts that are used in most OEM applications. They do not make billet or forged steel camshafts. The advantage of nodular iron is damping. Our order for new camshafts is large enough where specific procedures have been written and are being followed to produce a quality product.

The new camshaft is made of nodular iron and the various surfaces are induction hardened to different hardness. The 8 lobes are HRC58/62, and the bearing surfaces and gear are HRC40/52.

Care is being taken to not harden the small diameter between lobes.

You mentioned that Rockwell hardness testing could be done at several points to measure hardness, but every test point would be a stress riser. You also mentioned attempting to cut with a carbide tool, which I think is better. The third method that I prefer is to look at the heat-affected area.

The attached photographs of the new camshaft show a gradual color change between lobes and a band of no color change midway between lobes. This is an indication that there are no random hard spots and that there is a gradual transition from hard to soft. The pictures show the gradual change in hardness at the surface, but internally, the core remains soft and ductile.

The camshaft in the new engine is supported with 5 bearings with 2 lobes between bearings, so even if the valve spring pressure was very high, I don't anticipate a bending problem between lobes.

A Model A camshaft supported by 3 bearings has 4 lobes between bearings and the deflections will be greater.

Even worse is the Ford flathead V-8 design where the camshaft has 3 bearings and there are 8 lobes between bearings.



David Serrano,
The retail price for the new camshaft is $375. Quantity discounts are available to engine builders and parts retailers that buy 5 or more at a time. Shipping a quantity instead of individually is also cheaper.
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File Type: jpg Camshaft Heat Treat 1.jpg (36.2 KB, 75 views)
File Type: jpg Camshaft Heat Treat 2.jpg (45.0 KB, 70 views)
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:54 PM   #414
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Are the camshafts usable in a stock block?
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Old 09-22-2021, 06:39 PM   #415
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

If you take all the statements as to all stock A components attach to the new block, and, the description given by Terry of the cam, I see no reason to question the compatibility. The two extra bearings will not be supported in a 3 bearing original block.
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Old 09-23-2021, 05:16 AM   #416
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks, I should have remembered that.
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Old 10-06-2021, 07:59 PM   #417
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Is the current run of blocks spoken for?
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Old 10-15-2021, 12:47 PM   #418
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi
Is there anyone who tried different camlifts or duration except for the stipe 0,340 or similar.I was thinking like 0.413 lift.Is there a clearence issue with a higher lift in the burtz combo.
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Old 10-15-2021, 04:02 PM   #419
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Is the current run of blocks spoken for?
There are engine kits available from the second run.
On 10/14, I increased my order from 10 to 12 kits and was told there would be warehouse stock after the current orders were filled.

Good Day!
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Old 10-15-2021, 04:21 PM   #420
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Esso,

The camshaft bearing diameter is 1.559/1.560 inches.

As long as the nose of the lobe does not protrude beyond the 1.559/1.560-inch dimension, a higher lift lobe is permissible and there will be no interference.

A good website to learn about camshafts is tildentechnologies.com/index.html
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Old 10-16-2021, 01:08 PM   #421
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Is the current run of blocks spoken for?
No. The quantity of the second run has been increased with the goal of developing available inventory in the east and west coast warehouses.

At this time, manufacturing on the second run is partially completed and the run is continuing. Approximately 200 blocks have been shipped to the east coast and are on the water.

We expect to have another 200 completed in the next 30 days and shipped to the west coast warehouse for December receipt.

Following those shipments, we plan to regularly manufacture and ship 125 blocks a month to the US. Shipment deliveries will alternate monthly between the east and west coast warehouses. Once they reach the warehouse, they will be forwarded to customers or, alternatively, available for pickup at the warehouse.

We think we will be caught up with the current order backlog in January 2022 and in a position to begin delivering to any new orders received at this time going forward.

That said, like everyone else, we are experiencing shipping delays due to the demand for containers. Certainty with manufacturing schedules seems to be improving. Getting products from point A to B has become the challenge.
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Old 10-16-2021, 04:33 PM   #422
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Question Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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There are engine kits available from the second run.
On 10/14, I increased my order from 10 to 12 kits and was told there would be warehouse stock after the current orders were filled.

Good Day!
Wait a minute...so you ordered a dozen new engines Dave?
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Old 10-16-2021, 04:42 PM   #423
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Wait a minute...so you ordered a dozen new engines Dave?
The real question is, will he really get the traditional 13?
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Old 10-17-2021, 03:34 PM   #424
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Smile Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I am very happy to learn the east coast batch is on the water!
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Old 10-17-2021, 03:35 PM   #425
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Smile Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I am very, very happy to learn the east coast batch is on the water!
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:17 PM   #426
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The 1st container of "New Engine Kits" from the 2nd production run is aboard the ship Hyundai Victory and is crossing the Pacific Ocean.

The Hyundai Victory is on its way to Savannah, GA, and can be tracked at https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels...MMSI-441754000

The "New Engine Kits" for the 2nd container bound for the Hawthorne, CA distribution warehouse are complete.

Once a vessel is booked for transportation of the 2nd container, a container needs to be found, and then the "New Engine Kits" will be transported to the container yard for loading into the container and aboard the ship.
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Old 10-22-2021, 04:05 PM   #427
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good luck. There are over 75 ships sitting outside the Long Beach Harbor waiting to get in to unload. It takes several days to unload a ship. I guess I'll see mine from the second container after the first of the year. :-(
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Old 10-24-2021, 06:08 AM   #428
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What is the warranty from defects or cracks of this made in China block?
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Old 10-24-2021, 09:54 PM   #429
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Mike,

Thanks for your question regarding the warranty from defects or cracks of the “made in China block”.

The new Model A cylinder blocks are being manufactured in a factory that only makes cast iron cylinder blocks for many new automobiles, trucks, off-road equipment, and locomotives.

The iron alloys, core binders, and many other things are vastly improved since the Model A era. There is a chance that you may be driving a new car that had its cylinder block made in the factory that we are using.

After machining, we specified that all new Model A cylinder blocks are to be pressure tested to guarantee that there are no water jacket cracks.

To help prevent cracks in the future, the new Model A cylinder block upper deck is thicker in the 4 areas between the exhaust valves and the cylinders and the exterior water jacket wall thickness on the water inlet side has been increased to 3/16 inch.

We guarantee that the "New Engine Kit" has no casting or forging flaws and that all machined surfaces for mating parts agree with the original Ford drawings.

You or your engine builder need to follow the latest “Builders Guide” at www.modelaengine.com when building your engine. This guide is being updated as engines are being built, and an updated version will be released in a few days.

There have been no problems with any “New Engine Kit” from the 1st production run.

Our “Liability and Guarantee” are clearly defined in the “Builders Guide”.
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Old 11-07-2021, 01:15 PM   #430
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I saw that there is no info on shipping to the California warehouse now, are all the blocks now going to the Kentucky warehouse?
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Old 11-07-2021, 01:57 PM   #431
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hoping there's not so much of a hold up getting them into port, interested to see one of them sometime.
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Old 11-10-2021, 01:52 PM   #432
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The 1st container of “New Engine Kits” from the 2nd production run is on the Hyundai Victory and is scheduled to arrive in Savanna. GA on Nov 15, 2021. From there, the container will be trucked to the Franklin, KY warehouse for distribution.

With the ongoing Los Angeles/Long Beach port problems and the high cost of doing business in CA, the 2nd container of “New Engine Kits” is on the Hyundai Respect and is scheduled to arrive in Savanna, GA on Dec 7, 2021. This container will also be trucked to Franklin, KY.

Shipping from Franklin, KY to most of the USA is more economical than shipping from Hawthorne, CA. When quantities of “New Engine Kits” are shipped together to the same address the shipping cost per kit goes way down. The cost also goes down when shipped to a commercial address instead of a residential address.

If you know of someone in your area or a couple of people getting a “New Engine Kit”, Place your order together and ship to a single destination. The shipping costs go down a lot when you start combining orders. Shipping 2 to 3 blocks kits together can save up to 20% to 30% for each engine kit compared to shipping a single-engine kit.

The 2 containers coming do not have enough “New Engine Kits” to fill all orders, so the factories in China have agreed to continue production run #2 at the price negotiated before they were forced to change from coal to electrical furnaces.

Production run #2 will continue until there is sufficient stock in the warehouses to fill orders for some period.

The “New Model A Engine Builders Guide” found at www.modelaengine.com has been updated and the latest version is dated 4 November 2021.

We have a space and will have the “New Engine Kit” at the Turlock, CA swap meet on January 29 and 30, 2022.

We have committed to giving a seminar at the MAFCA National Convention in Kerrville, TX on Monday, June 13, 2022, and will have the "New Engine Kit" on display during the meet.
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Old 11-11-2021, 01:19 PM   #433
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

OK, So now we have to pay shipping from coast to coast. Are their any other buyers in the Los Angeles, Ventura, Orange county area who would like to combine shipping and save a few bucks?
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Old 11-11-2021, 01:52 PM   #434
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
OK, So now we have to pay shipping from coast to coast. Are their any other buyers in the Los Angeles, Ventura, Orange county area who would like to combine shipping and save a few bucks?
John Lampl can best answer that question. If you look at the last page of the builders guide you will see how to contact John.
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Old 11-11-2021, 03:05 PM   #435
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I'm actually just happy that I'm on the list and should be getting one and more than gladly pay for the shipping up to Washington state
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Old 11-11-2021, 03:24 PM   #436
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
OK, So now we have to pay shipping from coast to coast. Are their any other buyers in the Los Angeles, Ventura, Orange county area who would like to combine shipping and save a few bucks?
Chris,

I don’t know where I am on the list but I also ordered a flywheel and cam.

If I am scheduled to get a kit this shipment I would also like to have my kit sent to the Hawthorne Warehouse along with other kits bound for Southern California if possible.

I wouldn’t mind waiting for the next shipment if it is coming to the Port of L.A. or Long Beach. I’ve waited this long, another month won’t matter.

Should we contact John about our options? Perhaps he could coordinate combining a shipment to Southern California.

David Serrano
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Old 11-11-2021, 06:06 PM   #437
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I would be willing to help with setting up a consolidated shipment to the SF
Bay Area.
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Old 11-11-2021, 07:40 PM   #438
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Chris,

I don’t know where I am on the list but I also ordered a flywheel and cam.

If I am scheduled to get a kit this shipment I would also like to have my kit sent to the Hawthorne Warehouse along with other kits bound for Southern California if possible.

I wouldn’t mind waiting for the next shipment if it is coming to the Port of L.A. or Long Beach. I’ve waited this long, another month won’t matter.

Should we contact John about our options? Perhaps he could coordinate combining a shipment to Southern California.

David Serrano
Yes contact John. He takes care of the shipping.
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Old 11-12-2021, 11:27 AM   #439
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So, How do I contact John?
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Old 11-12-2021, 01:23 PM   #440
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris:

You can text John at:

John Lampl <[email protected]>

Or you can go to the website:

www.burtzblock.com

David Serrano
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Old 11-12-2021, 04:32 PM   #441
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"...I don’t know where I am on the list but..."

I thought it would be good to jump in here and offer some insight with regards to the shipping process and how you may possibly be able to save some freight costs on your block deliveries..

A lot of people already know they are on schedule to get delivery of their block kits soon. The first shipment is arriving shortly and we have emailed everyone who is expected to receive their order from this first delivery. Before the next container arrives in early December, we will also notify everyone who will have their orders filled with that delivery and the process repeats.. Everyone left who is waiting for a block kit should get delivery by the third shipment expected by early Jan. If you have been notified by email, you know to expect to get delivery soon. If you have not been notified, you will know that your order will be filled on a later arrival.

A good way to save freight costs is to combine delivery with others in your area and try to arrange delivery to a commercial address. If you can combine with at least two to three others, you should have a good savings on freight. If you know you are getting delivery on this first shipment, you can contact others in your area to combine shipments. You will need to check around. If you know someone and they have not received notice, then chances are they are on a later arrival. If you are fortunate enough to locate someone you want to combine freight with, then send an email to [email protected] and let us know the names of the customers and the delivery destination. we will arrange delivery accordingly. I hope this helps..
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Old 11-12-2021, 06:58 PM   #442
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

John, how would I find out where I'm on the list? I signed up on March 3rd and was told I was on the list by email. But for whatever reason my phone had broken and I've lost a bunch of emails plus my email for whatever reason won't receive from certain senders. I've signed up for the updates but I've never received any.
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Old 11-13-2021, 08:03 AM   #443
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I was off by a month. I actually signed up April 2
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Old 11-13-2021, 10:14 AM   #444
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Gene, Container arriving 7 Dec..
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Old 11-15-2021, 07:19 PM   #445
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Those building Burtz blocks, are you honing the cylinders, or are you going with the factory hone. Specifically with the stock hastings ring in particular.
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Old 11-15-2021, 09:48 PM   #446
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The new cylinder block has the correct plateau-honed surface finish based on the combination of the new harder alloy used and the grey iron/phosphate coated compression rings in Hastings ring set 665. No adjustment to the honed surface is needed.

To learn more, see:
https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/...ea-catalog.pdf
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Old 11-16-2021, 10:15 AM   #447
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I must say, that Terry has thought of everything. Thanks Terry!
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Old 11-30-2021, 04:50 PM   #448
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will the new camshaft's iron composition be compatible with the steel oil pump/distributor gear?
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Old 11-30-2021, 10:49 PM   #449
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Perhaps one of the Model A parts vendors would come up with a “Burtz engine package “to complete the assembly.
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:34 PM   #450
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Burtz Block Delivery Update..

The first container has been released and will be delivered to the KY distribution center within a matter of a few days.. Block kits should start shipping next week.. The 2nd container is on schedule and we expect those block kits will be in distribution by Christmas. John
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Old 12-02-2021, 09:15 PM   #451
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will the new camshaft's iron composition be compatible with the steel oil pump/distributor gear? JOHNCL


JOHNCL,
Yes, they are compatible and submerged in pressurized oil from the main oil galley. Without knowing the hardness of the oil pump/distributor gear, I cannot comment on which part will wear first.
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:27 PM   #452
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, i sent you a PM.
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Old 12-13-2021, 07:28 PM   #453
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I'm hoping to get my this weekend, Does anyone know how much the block wieghts?
Thanks
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Old 12-16-2021, 05:02 PM   #454
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I received by Burtz kit and flywheel this afternoon. HURRAY! initial inspection suggests all is well. the items were in four boxes shrink wrapped together. Three were on top of the block's plywood box = the plywood box for the crank, the cardboard box for the flywheel and the cardboard box for the four connecting rods. No rust was observed. The crank is coated with something like cosmoline. all else is an oiled finish. I have not fully opened the block's box so I haven't sorted through small hardware yet.
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Old 12-16-2021, 11:37 PM   #455
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

briphaeton
The sticker on the side of the cylinder block crate will say 65 kg (143 lbs). This weight is the combined weight of the cylinder block, loose hardware, packing materials, and the shipping crate.
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Old 12-17-2021, 05:46 PM   #456
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Oil Changes -- how often?
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Old 12-18-2021, 07:19 AM   #457
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Any idea of what the shipping cost have been.
Also how can one find out where you are on the list once you've signed up?
Thanks
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Old 12-18-2021, 07:51 AM   #458
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

All the loose parts were in the plastic bag at the bottom of the block's box. In trial fitting, I had difficulty finding where the last two oil galley plugs went until I examined the cam gear side cover on the donor engine and related it to the oil galley casting bulges behind the cam gear. End of mystery. The assembly manual could be clearer on the placement of the plugs.
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Old 12-18-2021, 01:12 PM   #459
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Don’t rely on the manual that ships with the block. Go to modelaengine.com and download all of the user guides. Read the user guide before you begin.
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Old 12-18-2021, 03:47 PM   #460
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dennis, I did that. You should also examine the builder's guide to see that it does not address the issue in a clear way. That is why I posted the suggestion.
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Old 12-18-2021, 05:41 PM   #461
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I’ve built this engine and helped a good friend with his. What page or pages are you referring to?

Was there a user guide shipped with the block? There was a guide shipped with the block on the first run. My new kit is at the warehouse and I’m picking it up Monday so I don’t know what is in the box this time.
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Old 12-18-2021, 10:57 PM   #462
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

In section 2) Common Sense and Assembly Sequence in the "Builders Guide" found at www.modelaengine.com, there is a paragraph addressing how to check for oil system leaks.

The paragraph found in the "Builders Guide" is pasted below.

It is important to verify that there are no open passages or leaks from the pressurized oil system. When the short block is assembled, remove the lower bolt (A-21111) from the Cylinder timing gear cover side (A-6017) and apply 40 PSI air pressure while checking for leaks at the rear main oil galley plug, the castle nuts for main bearings, the interface between the cylinder block and flywheel housing, the rear main seal, and the interface between the rear main bearing cap and cylinder block.
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Old 12-19-2021, 12:49 AM   #463
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, thank you for posting that. I don’t think some people are reading the online guide. Is there a guide that is shipped with the block? I highly recommend reading the online guides.
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Old 12-19-2021, 07:23 AM   #464
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, the pasted paragraph is not the response I expected. My point is that your photographs could better include, say, arrows pointing out the galley plug locations. You've asked for suggestions, BTW. I am surely not the only one who worked to find the plug locations.

John
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Old 12-19-2021, 01:02 PM   #465
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry
Is there any advantage to seal the inside of the block with a ceramic or paint type block seal?
Also do you have a price and availability on your new 5 bearing cam. Is it a 340 cam similar to Bill Stipes?
Joe
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Old 12-19-2021, 08:04 PM   #466
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Joe,

The new camshaft has a 0.340-inch valve lift, the intake and exhaust lobes are separated by 113 degrees, and the seated duration is 248 degrees.

It is made from nodular iron which is the material of choice and used in nearly all new production engines.

The lobes are induction hardened to Rc 58/62 to minimize wear, and the 5 bearings and center gear are hardened to Rc 40/52 to keep the gear teeth from becoming brittle.

The new camshaft has passages that will supply pressurized oil to the plunger at the front of the camshaft and if the new camshaft is used with our “New Engine Kit”, there will be 17 pressure-fed bearings instead of 16.

Ford drawing A-6250 was used for all interfacing dimensions.

The new camshaft can also be used in all Model A, Model B, Russian GAZ, and German G28T engines.

The retail price is $375, and the 1st production run is complete and being transported in a shared container.
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Old 12-23-2021, 04:49 PM   #467
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The more I have thought about the four mains' studs for cylinders #1 and #3, and worked with trial fittings of the studs, nuts, and bearings the more I have been thinking of adding O-rings beneath the castle nuts (in addition to the other sealants suggested by Terry. Those studs and their holes are subjected to the same oil pressure as the bearings. I want to avoid any leakage at the castle nuts' interface with the block. What do you guys (and Terry) think?
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Old 12-23-2021, 07:02 PM   #468
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It’s worth a try if you can find o-rings thin enough. Snyder’s and some others sell a flat washer with a rubber seal in the inner hole of the washer. It would also be worth trying packing and possibly an o-ring at the inside of the bore. It would need to be thin.
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Old 12-23-2021, 08:22 PM   #469
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I picked up my Block, Rods, Crank, and Flywheel from Terry today.
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Old 12-23-2021, 10:42 PM   #470
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I think these are what you are referring to, I have used them in other applications.
https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-wa...s-and-washers/

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Old 12-24-2021, 12:04 AM   #471
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I Use a metric viton o ring,1.5 mm section and If I remember correctly 10 mm id.I made a special little installer for them and insert the down the reduced part of the stud from the bearing cap end,
Lawrie
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Old 12-24-2021, 12:08 AM   #472
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

How many engines are now state side? Just amazing this project came to life. My hat is off to you.
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Old 12-24-2021, 04:20 AM   #473
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

JOHNCL, when my Burtz engines arrive soon, I will look to see if Dowty washers will do the trick.
I use these on the rear main bolts on my original engines and I think I have them under the external mains castle nuts too from memory.
Are these what Dennis and John are referring to?
My Dowty washer kits have a stiffer Shore A 80 Buna N than standard O rings for better sealing in this application .
SAJ in NZ
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Old 12-24-2021, 10:07 AM   #474
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNCL View Post
I have been thinking of adding O-rings beneath the castle nuts (in addition to the other sealants suggested by Terry. Those studs and their holes are subjected to the same oil pressure as the bearings. I want to avoid any leakage at the castle nuts' interface with the block. What do you guys (and Terry) think?
Snyder's has sealing washer available. https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...id=978757&cat=
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Old 12-24-2021, 12:47 PM   #475
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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JOHNCL, when my Burtz engines arrive soon, I will look to see if Dowty washers will do the trick.
I use these on the rear main bolts on my original engines and I think I have them under the external mains castle nuts too from memory.
Are these what Dennis and John are referring to?
My Dowty washer kits have a stiffer Shore A 80 Buna N than standard O rings for better sealing in this application .
SAJ in NZ
The leak I’ve experienced usually in a similar situation was around of from the threads. I’ve never seen brand name, what was called a Dowty washer. They might differ from what is available here. The conversation I’ve had with Terry was his concern that original Model A engines did not have washers under the nuts. We do what we have to stop the leaks.
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Old 12-25-2021, 12:50 AM   #476
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

To keep the exterior completely original and not have sealing washers under the castellated nuts, I like Lawrie's solution of using an O-ring around the 7/16 inch stud that fits into a 1/2 inch hole at main bearings 1 and 3.

The wall clearance between the stud and wall for main bearings 1 and 3 is 1/32 inch.

During the design, I tried to find 1/32 inch cross-section O-rings that would work, but they are not available in the diameters needed.

Lawrie's post made me look at metric O-rings, and they are available in diameters that I think will work.

A 1 mm cross-section O-ring is .0397 inches.

The 1/2 inch hole is 12.7 mm.

My thoughts are that a 1 mm (.0397 inch) cross-section x 12.5 mm (.4921 inch) OD O-ring will work. The ID of this O-ring is 10.5 mm (.4134 inches) and will stretch when installed on the 11.1125 mm (.4375 inch) stud. I'm thinking is that the stretch on the ID will increase the OD to be greater than 12.700 mm (.500 inches).

McMaster Carr O-ring 9262K156 or 1295N129 are both 1 mm cross-section x 12.5 mm OD and oil resistant.

Other O-rings that are 1 mm cross-section x 13 mm OD will work but they may be slightly harder to install because the 1 mm cross-section will need additional deflection.

McMaster part numbers for 1 mm cross-section x 13 mm OD O-rings are 9262K163, 1174N102, 1247N102, 1171n102, 9263K549, 1295N131, 1185N12, and 5233T19.

This information will be added to the next revision of the "Builders Guide" found at www.modelaengine.com.
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Old 12-25-2021, 01:51 AM   #477
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

But how many manufactured in china and are now in the USA? It's just hard to think that a Model A can get a new china made engine after 90 years!!!

Last edited by Model A Ron; 12-25-2021 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 12-25-2021, 02:16 AM   #478
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Have you looked at Rocket Seals in Denver, CO for O-Rings or seals?

They have supplied parts for the Space and Defense Industry since 1956.

THE LARGEST O-RING AND SEALING PRODUCT INVENTORY IN THE WORLD
Since 1956, Rocket Seals distributors have offered OEM and MROs the sealing product inventory and specialized expertise you can trust.

https://www.rocketseals.com/
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Old 12-25-2021, 09:32 AM   #479
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, and you other builders, thank you for your valuable comments. I believe the O-ring on the 7/16" part of the stud followed by sealant impregnated wrapping string and possibly another O-ring could create a long compressive seal continuously compressed by the engine oil pressure. The top-side washers under the castle nuts can still be used when their appearance does not distract from judging standards. I would bet that existing builds that have not experienced oil leaks have used the wrapped string idea put forward by Terry in the manual.
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Old 01-06-2022, 03:10 PM   #480
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The latest revision of the “Builders Guide” dated 3 January 2022 is on the website (www.modelaengine.com) under the tab “Guides”. Added material includes a head nut torquing sequence, source of Silv-O-Lite thin ring pistons, a caution about using pistons with offset wrist pins, sealing the #1 and #3 main bearing studs with an O-ring, added part numbers for SKF/Chicago rear main seals, added engine builders and parts suppliers, and unwarranted modifications. Please use this latest “Builders Guide” when building an engine.

We will be at the Turlock, CA Swap Meet on January 29 and 30, 2022 (www.turlockswapmeet.com) held at the Stanislaus County Fairgrounds. We will be in building VO and sharing space ID with John Lavoy which is across the aisle from the snack bar.

We will display the “New Engine Kit”, “New Flywheel”, and “New Camshaft”, and offer a discount for orders placed at the Turlock Swap Meet. I will be there to answer any questions.
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Old 01-06-2022, 03:25 PM   #481
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
Do you have a date when we will be able to buy the cylinder head?
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Old 01-06-2022, 07:30 PM   #482
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
The leak I’ve experienced usually in a similar situation was around of from the threads. I’ve never seen brand name, what was called a Dowty washer. They might differ from what is available here. The conversation I’ve had with Terry was his concern that original Model A engines did not have washers under the nuts. We do what we have to stop the leaks.
Hi Dennis,
When I assembled my Burtz kit last year, I used Permatex Right-Stuff to seal the studs. I worked some into the hole of the block and then inserted the stud. Some of the sealant came out with the stud and when the nut was installed, the sealant sealed the threads and the area between the block and the nut. This method resulted in no leaks and not much work to accomplish. Once the Right Stuff sets up, it is not going to leak.
I agree with you: "We do what we have to (to) stop leaks".

Good Day!
Dave
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Old 01-06-2022, 10:07 PM   #483
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Terry,
Do you have a date when we will be able to buy the cylinder head?
Chris,

We expect to have the "engineering evaluation head" near the end of January.

We are very particular, and once we approve it, a production contract will be awarded.

In order to keep shipping costs reasonable, several hundred need to be shipped at the same time.

Being a little conservative, the heads will be available no sooner than late April.

Contact John Lampl at [email protected] to get on the waiting list.

Last edited by Terry Burtz, Calif; 01-13-2022 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Spelling correction
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Old 01-13-2022, 08:11 AM   #484
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

to Terry Burtz,

Does your new camshaft's exhaust lobes have enhanced clearance with the connecting rods? Its lift specs appear to be equal to my Stipe steel B 340 touring grind cam. The Stipe lobes pass extremely, dangerously close to the connecting rods. My engine builder says the cam should not be touched and that the rods need to be relieved and rebalanced. My hope is that your new cam provides better clearances.
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Old 01-13-2022, 01:55 PM   #485
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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to Terry Burtz,

Does your new camshaft's exhaust lobes have enhanced clearance with the connecting rods? Its lift specs appear to be equal to my Stipe steel B 340 touring grind cam. The Stipe lobes pass extremely, dangerously close to the connecting rods. My engine builder says the cam should not be touched and that the rods need to be relieved and rebalanced. My hope is that your new cam provides better clearances.


The "New Engine" has 2-inch diameter connecting rod bearings and there is not much clearance between the various parts. The parting line for the connecting rod cap is at 76 degrees just to clear everything including the cylinder wall, crankcase wall, oil pan, and camshaft. A loose connecting rod bearing will make noise long before anything hits. The "New Engine" has the timing gear centers in the same locations as an original cylinder block that results in our new camshaft having no more clearance than other camshafts.
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Old 01-13-2022, 05:03 PM   #486
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Terry, is the hone provided adequate for standard "A" ring widths? I keep hearing its for the thin metric rings. I know the Hasting iron rings are suggested. I have pistons and rings, but they are not the thin ones.
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Old 01-14-2022, 09:54 PM   #487
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Terry, is the hone provided adequate for standard "A" ring widths? I keep hearing its for the thin metric rings. I know the Hasting iron rings are suggested. I have pistons and rings, but they are not the thin ones.
The thin rings are not metric. The compression rings are 5/64 inches wide and the oil ring is 3/16 inches wide.

The original compression rings are 1/8 inches wide and the oil ring is 5/32 inches wide.

The original rings will seat, but with their additional width, it will take longer.
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Old 01-14-2022, 10:07 PM   #488
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I have had several requests asking me to supply the special bolts needed for the installation of an oil filter, and/or monitoring the oil pressure at the main oil galley.

The dimensional details of the special bolts can be found in the "Guides" found at www.modelaengine.com and they can be made on a screw cutting metal lathe.

The large special bolt is only needed if an oil filter is used because it returns filtered oil to the main oil galley.

The small special bolt replaces a valve cover bolt and can be connected to a pressure gauge to monitor the main oil galley pressure and/or supply oil to an OHV head conversion.

I had 100 large and 100 small special bolts made.

The bolts are made from 6061-T6 aluminum alloy and the large bolt will yield at just over 55 lb-ft of torque.

The price of the large bolt is $20.

The price of the small bolt is $10.

In the USA, USPS small box flat rate postage is $8.45 whether there are 1 or 25 bolts in the package.

Send a note with quantities wanted and a check to Terry Burtz, 345 Budd Ave, Campbell, CA 95008.
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Old 01-15-2022, 05:20 PM   #489
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The check is in the mail.
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Old 01-15-2022, 07:21 PM   #490
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will a stock oil pump from Snyder's
work with the Burtz block kit?
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Old 01-16-2022, 06:05 AM   #491
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

See p.11 of http://www.modelaengine.com/new-engi...ers-guide.html
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Old 01-16-2022, 08:54 AM   #492
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

All this depends if and when China invades Taiwan. All trade will come to a stop.
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Old 01-18-2022, 08:11 PM   #493
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I read many discussions regarding Oil Pumps, but just how many building this new engine are using the modified (per Terry’s instructions) pump. If you are using the pump, two questions:
1. what is the pressure relief valve your using?
2. if running an external oil filter, how are you accomplishing this setup (parts & plumbing)?

thank you
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Old 01-24-2022, 04:19 PM   #494
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

This post is an update regarding the "New Model A Engine".

The "New Engine Kit" (Cylinder Block, Crankshaft, and Connecting Rods), the "New Flywheel", and the "New Camshaft" will be on display at the Turlock, CA Swap Meet on January 29th and 30th. John Lampl will be taking orders with a substantial "Swap Meet Discount" and I will be there to answer any technical questions. We will also be offering a $10/year subscription rate for new subscribers to the "Secrets" magazine published by Charlie Yapp.

We will be in building VO at space ID. We will be sharing John Lavoy's space that is across the aisle from the snack bar. Please stop by to see the new parts and ask a lot of questions.

The "Builders Guide" has been updated to the 20 January 2022 revision and can be found at the tab "Guides" found at www.modelaengine.com. This is what you should be following to build a "New Engine".

Changes to the "Builders Guide" include a paragraph on "Oil Passage Plugs", additional information regarding the sealing of main bearing studs that have castle nuts, a picture showing the correct orientation of the connecting rod assembly, a paragraph regarding the weights of new pistons, a paragraph regarding crankshaft/cylinder bore offset along with piston/wrist pin offset, and some small wording changes in various places for clarification.

The Guide, "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump" has been updated to the 10 January 2022 revision because there was an error regarding the diameter of the collar used to divert all oil to the outside of the cylinder block when plumbing for an oil filter.

There have been no changes to the Guide "Installing an Oil Filter", and the 31 January 2021 revision is the latest.

Both the new flywheels and new camshafts are in stock at the Hawthorne, CA distribution warehouse.

The next container of "New Engine Kits" (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) is scheduled to arrive in April and will be sent to Los Angeles if the port backlog problems are solved.

I had 100 each of the special bolts made. They are made from alloy aluminum and the large one will break at just over 50 lb-ft of torque. The price for the large one is $20, and the price for the small one is $10. Add $9.45 for Flat Rate small box postage. A Small Flat Rate postage box will hold 25 or more bolts. Please send a check to Terry Burtz, 345 Budd Ave, Campbell, CA 95008.
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Old 01-24-2022, 04:45 PM   #495
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry

Have you had any thoughts about being at the portland swap meet April 1 - 3?
If we are on the list for camshaft purchase will John contact us?

thanks

Bob
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Old 01-24-2022, 11:56 PM   #496
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
Your thoughs on Snyder's oil filter kit #A-6705. Could this be modified to get the appropriate oil flow?
Thanks
Ed
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:19 PM   #497
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Bob, I've agreed to give a seminar at the Central Coast Regional Group Jamboree and that will conflict with Portland.

Ed, Instead of the stock Model A gravity and dip oiling system, the new engine has 17 pressure-fed bearings. None of the oil filters designed for an original engine will work on the new engine.
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Old 02-21-2022, 01:43 PM   #498
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I'm new to this forum, but I recently bought a 1932 Ford B Cabriolet. I am Norwegian, living in Norway, but has a holiday home in Gran Canaria, and that's where the car is.

I want to get a new motor for this car, based on a Burtz Block. I want an engine that looks pretty orginal, and that gives approx. 80 HP.

Can anyone recommend a company in the US that can build such an engine for me?
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Old 02-21-2022, 03:46 PM   #499
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by surreveps View Post

Can anyone recommend a company in the US that can build such an engine for me?
Turlock Machine. Check their Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/modelaengines4u/
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Old 02-21-2022, 05:54 PM   #500
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Bert's Model A Store in Denver built the prototype.
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Old 02-24-2022, 10:29 PM   #501
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The "Builders Guide" found at www.modelaengine.com has been updated.

The latest revision is dated 23 February 2022. Please use the latest guide when building an engine.

Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1123377268114692 has a lot of information, videos, and hints from people building engines. There are a lot of videos showing deburring, dial indicator readings, and checking balance.

I have the design and working model of a modulating oil pressure relief valve. It has a slow leak through the clearance between the piston and housing and when the set pressure is reached, the leakage is through 3 orifices. As pumped volume increases, the orifices open larger to maintain the set pressure. The working model has been tested to 100 PSI and at 2500 RPM oil pump shaft speed which is equivalent to 5000 crankshaft RPM and it was able to maintain the set pressure. The working model was machined on a lathe and Bridgeport mill. Next week, I will talk to a CNC shop about production. This will be a huge improvement over the brass valves with a ball and spring that are either closed or open.
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Old 02-25-2022, 01:28 AM   #502
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, would you please describe attachment details for those of us who have already installed the first version (brass valve ) you suggested on our pumps. This would let us know if we can make adjustment to our existing pump plans.
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Old 02-26-2022, 09:08 AM   #503
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, looking forward towards your pressure relief valve. Just finished the modification to my oil pump and was just getting ready to order the specified relief valve.
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Old 03-04-2022, 10:28 PM   #504
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Info from facebook recently posted on oil pump

To all:
I finally am able to price the oil pump. My target was $400 or less, but inflation and the issues around the world have driven the retail price up to $410. If you are interested, please email me at [email protected]. I am compiling a list of those interested. Their is absolutely no obligation to purchase.
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Old 03-05-2022, 06:50 AM   #505
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Default Oil pump operation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4bangerbob View Post
Info from facebook recently posted on oil pump

To all:
I finally am able to price the oil pump. My target was $400 or less, but inflation and the issues around the world have driven the retail price up to $410. If you are interested, please email me at [email protected]. I am compiling a list of those interested. Their is absolutely no obligation to purchase.

I am following your oil pump project with interest in using them in upcoming builds. Is the relief system adjustable as to delivered pressure? If so, what is the range of adjustment?
Thanks for your efforts.
Good Day!
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Old 03-05-2022, 07:27 PM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
I am following your oil pump project with interest in using them in upcoming builds. Is the relief system adjustable as to delivered pressure? If so, what is the range of adjustment?
Thanks for your efforts.
Good Day!
Yes I would be interested to know if relief valve is adjustable and or range if it is adjustable.
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Old 04-25-2022, 07:43 PM   #507
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

NEW HEAD UPDATE

We have received 2 new 6.5 to 1 pre-production heads that will be used for engineering evaluation before production is authorized.

Engineering evaluation consists of verification of all machined surfaces, flatness verification, visual verification, verification of wall thickness, and performance verification.


The machined surfaces on the first head have been verified to be correct by careful measurement and comparing the measurements to Ford drawing A-6050.

The revised water passage holes to divert more coolant to the rear are in their correct locations and look good.

The bottom of the new head was verified to be flat by placing it on a surface plate and the inability to slide a 0.002-inch feeler gauge anywhere between the head and the surface plate.

Visually, the combustion chambers all look good.

Visually, the new head was placed on 2 original cylinder blocks and held in place with 7/16 inch bolts through 2 stud holes. The length and width of the new head matched the original cylinder blocks and there was no overhang.

Visually, the 3 small marks where core wires protruded were present, and with exception of 4 small discrepancies, everything looked good.

The 4 discrepancies are that the delta foundry mark should be better defined, the area below the distributor retention setscrew has excess material, there is excess material where the water outlet meets the new head, and the scallops have evidence of machining instead of being a cast surface.

Each of the 4 exterior discrepancies could be corrected with a die grinder, Dremel tool, and a needle scaler from Harbor Freight, but our goal is to provide a part that may only require a minor touchup for points judging. We will be asking the foundry to make changes to the tooling to correct the discrepancies before the production run.

The new head has increased wall thickness in several areas that are prone to cracking. The first head has been cut apart to verify wall thickness and to ensure that there is no porosity, and everything looked great.

The attached pictures show the top and bottom of the new head, and after I cut it apart for wall thickness verification.


The second head will be sent to Dennis Kliesen for performance evaluation. Dennis has over 17,000 miles on his new engine that is currently using a 6.0 to 1 head. Dennis and I are working on a plan for evaluation.


There are many people actively building the new engine and their comments can be found at https://www.facebook.com/groups/1123377268114692
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File Type: jpg New Head Upper.jpg (21.0 KB, 107 views)
File Type: jpg New Head Lower.jpg (25.9 KB, 121 views)
File Type: jpg New Head Cut Apart.jpg (22.6 KB, 109 views)
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Old 04-25-2022, 08:29 PM   #508
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Russ/40 View Post
Terry, would you please describe attachment details for those of us who have already installed the first version (brass valve ) you suggested on our pumps. This would let us know if we can make adjustment to our existing pump plans.
Russ,

The attachment details are that the new relief valve has 1/8 NPT male threads.

The new relief valve is made of steel and the length is roughly half of what the brass ball pop-off valves are.

Before a production contract is awarded, I am waiting for CNC samples to test and verify that they work as well as the sample made on a lathe and mill.
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Old 06-02-2022, 03:18 PM   #509
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Is there a pdf of the torque sequence for the Burt’s engine I can print out?
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Old 06-02-2022, 03:39 PM   #510
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It should be the same as a stock Model A engine block.
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Old 06-02-2022, 05:14 PM   #511
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

See the instructions in the Builders Guide on page 30, pay attention to the
third paragraph. http://www.modelaengine.com/new-engi...ers-guide.html
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Old 06-02-2022, 05:24 PM   #512
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The following is from section 7 of the "Builders Guide" in regards to head torque.

Head Torque

Head and cylinder block cracks between the stud holes and the water jacket at the center of the engine are caused by engine builders that use a clad head gasket and start in the center of the head and apply torque in large increments.

Apply head torque in increments no larger than 10 lb-ft. Larger torque increments can crack the head or cylinder block at the center, especially when using a clad head gasket with a soft core that has a lot of deflection during the application of torque. The Best 509C (clad) gasket compresses from 0.080 to 0.052 inches during the application of torque, and the Best 509G (graphite) compresses from 0.058 to 0.055 inches during the application of torque.

Instead of torquing in a spiral from the center of the head outwards, there is less chance of cracking a head if you start at the rear and work forward.

Cast iron heads need no more than 55 lb-ft of torque. Torque for aluminum heads is dependent on the thickness of the head because aluminum expands more than twice what cast iron expands for the same temperature change and you need to ask your head supplier for a recommended torque value.
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Old 06-23-2022, 08:52 AM   #513
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The next container of 156 blocks is scheduled for delivery at the Port of Savannah around July 1st!

https://www.vesselfinder.com/.../ZIM-NEWARK-IMO-9290555...

Those currently on the reservation list will be hearing from us soon.
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Old 06-23-2022, 09:19 PM   #514
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

NEW CYLINDER HEAD EVALUATION

My evaluation results from the new Burtz head are now complete. I have a 160° thermostat in my engine.

The coolant mixture is 50/50 antifreeze to water. With the engine warmed up in 85° weather I measured the temperatures across the head above the exhaust valves, and all cylinders were equal.

The temperature along the left side of the head was equal from front to back. The temperature reading on the water jacket in the middle of the head running from front to rear was about 170° at the rear and was increasing to 180° at the front of the head where the water pump was mounted.

The water jacket at the rear of the cylinder block was 10° cooler compared to the water jacket at the front of the cylinder block.

My conclusion regarding the temperature of the cylinder head is even across the length of the head. So I would say the passages that were changed in either shape or closed in comparison to an original or aftermarket head have helped to keep the head temperature even.

I have no leaks anywhere and I checked the head for flatness and torqued the head down to 55 ft lbs in the sequence as recommended by Terry Burtz.

I traveled 2,800 miles on a recent trip to Kerrville, TX. During my return trip home I traveled through areas of Desert in New Mexico, Arizona, and California during the daytime in 100° temperatures. My Burtz Block never overheated or lost water.

I did a compression test after I installed the Burtz head and found the compression in all 4 cylinders 135 lbs. The previous head on my engine was a Snyder’s 6.0:1 and it had 110 lbs in all cylinders.

Terry Burtz told me the compression ratio is rated at 6.5:1. When I started my power performance testing I changed my spark lever to a little less total advance from the previous setting. On a stretch of a toll road in my area prior to the Burtz head I was able to just maintain speed on an incline, while the Burtz head easily had enough power to climb the grade and accelerate going up the road. I highly recommend this head based on my test results.
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Old 06-24-2022, 10:11 AM   #515
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Dennis, these heads are stock-compatible, correct? I'm on the waiting list.
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Old 06-24-2022, 10:52 AM   #516
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I would like to see Dyno test results between a stock head and yours.
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:25 PM   #517
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Not this head, but have you seen this?

http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheet...ynosheets.html
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:44 PM   #518
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Dennis, these heads are stock-compatible, correct? I'm on the waiting list.
Yes, they are compatible with a stock engine. They will have the markings of an original stock head on the exterior.
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Old 06-26-2022, 08:46 AM   #519
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

If you happened to find yourself in Kerrville and were able to put your hands on all of this new old technology you would immediately appreciate the engineering along with what is obvious to those that have followed this since 2007 the blood sweat and tears that have gone into bringing all this to market.
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Old 06-29-2022, 04:15 PM   #520
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I just heard from John Lampl that they are expecting the new heads to be delivered late August. So potentially early Sept. before they would be in the hands of drivers. Just FYI in case people are weighing their options.
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Old 06-29-2022, 04:34 PM   #521
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Tod is working on a stock appearing high compression head too..try adding some fuel to that compression.. or go the full deal, fuel/ compression / improved exhaust..go to the dark side..
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Old 06-29-2022, 05:53 PM   #522
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Tod is working on a stock appearing high compression head too..try adding some fuel to that compression.. or go the full deal, fuel/ compression / improved exhaust..go to the dark side..

I think I have a thread on them somewhere. The first ones have already been put on engines. They are over 7:1. I will post them again in a new thread in order to not hijack this thread.



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Old 06-29-2022, 11:21 PM   #523
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Tod is working on a stock appearing high compression head too..try adding some fuel to that compression.. or go the full deal, fuel/ compression / improved exhaust..go to the dark side..
Its not quite that easy, but I like your thinking...

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Old 07-03-2022, 09:25 PM   #524
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The ZIM NEWARK container ship is at the dock in Savannah, GA, and the container with 156 "New Engine Kits" is being off-loaded.

The "New Engine Kits" will be transported to the distribution warehouse in Franklin, KY where they will be disbursed to buyers.
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Old 07-25-2022, 08:51 PM   #525
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry we are in the process of starting the clean up of the blocks for the 5 motors we purchased for here in OKC. With all this heat a little Christmas in July goes a long way. We so enjoyed meeting you and all your crew in Kerrville and would like to say thanks again for the tenacity to see this through.
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Old 07-25-2022, 09:32 PM   #526
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Quote:
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Terry we are in the process of starting the clean up of the blocks for the 5 motors we purchased for here in OKC. With all this heat a little Christmas in July goes a long way. We so enjoyed meeting you and all your crew in Kerrville and would like to say thanks again for the tenacity to see this through.

TinCup

Thanks for your interest in the new engine and your comment. Try to stay cool and enjoy the build.

I'm updating the "Builders Guide" and hope to publish a revised guide in the next 10 days.

If you need an adjustable analog modulating relief valve that can be used on a stock Model A oil pump to provide adequate pressure, please contact me at [email protected] and I will provide details. In the next revision to www.burtzblock.com, the relief valves, front, and rear main seals and the special bolts for the oil filter and oil pressure monitoring will be offered.

In total, 616 "New Engine Kits" have been delivered and another 156 are scheduled to be here in September.

156 is the number of "New Engine Kits" that can be loaded into a container due to weight.

Terry Burtz
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Old 07-26-2022, 11:48 AM   #527
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

A good friend just dropped close to $6K on a stock rebuild of his Tudor motor, with babbited bearings.

He told me this week 'I may have made a mistake. Wish I had spent the money on a new Terry Burtz block'.

His had a small crack and they stitched it.

I thought to myself, but said nothing to him, YES I would definitely have driven down the Terry Burtz Avenue on that project
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Old 08-29-2022, 10:58 PM   #528
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

A good friend just dropped close to $6K on a stock rebuild of his Tudor motor, with babbited bearings.

Just, curios, who was the mechanic, machinist, Babbiter?

Not many guys are babbiting these days Thanks for the info KL
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Old 09-02-2022, 02:42 PM   #529
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I am planning on running OHV heads on the burtz block kits I have purchased. As the rocker arm ratios are 1.5 to 1 using the standard Burtz camshaft with .340” lift would result in too much lift when using the OHV heads. While I thought of using a standard lift model A camshaft I did not want to loose the support offered by the 5 cam bearings that are in the burtz block.

Thus I decided to purchase a couple of camshafts from the burtz group and upon conferring with Terry and determining that there should be sufficient hardness at the resultant lobe configuration after grinding.

I sent the burtz cams and had Jim Brierly grind the camshafts one to his M-58 grind and the other to his M21 grind (specification shown below).

Once I got the cams back, I went and got the camshafts checked for hardness. I had them checked using Ultrasonic Contact Impedance (UCI) method so as to leave no marking on the surface. We wet sanded the nitrite coating off in an area on the lobe where the camshaft is allowing the valve to lower back onto the seat. The testing was done on four lobes total, two on each camshaft. The hardness found ranged from 55 - 57 Rc mid lobe to 59 - 62 Rc near the top of the lobe. So I think the cams should be good for some time. The Burtz spec for the lobe hardness as supplied is 58-62 Rockwell C ranging from 3mm (at maximum lobe lift) to 1.5mm (at cam base diameter).

No. Duration Lift (gross) Clearance
at cam at valve
in. exh.
M-58 280 .295 .444 .010 .015 fair idle, good street

M-21 286 .298 .448 .018 .020 hot street cam


I have attached a copy of the report as issued by Nortech (the company that performed the testing) and another file showing the cams and the areas where the testing was done. There were approximately 10-15 tests done on each lobe section and then the findings were averaged. I can also note that before the nitride coating was removed the readings were lower, about 10-20 points lower, so if someone else tests they should be aware to be testing on base material.
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File Type: pdf nortech uci testing report.pdf (388.3 KB, 16 views)
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Old 09-02-2022, 10:57 PM   #530
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by 4bangerbob View Post
I am planning on running OHV heads on the burtz block kits I have purchased. As the rocker arm ratios are 1.5 to 1 using the standard Burtz camshaft with .340” lift would result in too much lift when using the OHV heads. While I thought of using a standard lift model A camshaft I did not want to loose the support offered by the 5 cam bearings that are in the burtz block.

Thus I decided to purchase a couple of camshafts from the burtz group and upon conferring with Terry and determining that there should be sufficient hardness at the resultant lobe configuration after grinding.

I sent the burtz cams and had Jim Brierly grind the camshafts one to his M-58 grind and the other to his M21 grind (specification shown below).

Once I got the cams back, I went and got the camshafts checked for hardness. I had them checked using Ultrasonic Contact Impedance (UCI) method so as to leave no marking on the surface. We wet sanded the nitrite coating off in an area on the lobe where the camshaft is allowing the valve to lower back onto the seat. The testing was done on four lobes total, two on each camshaft. The hardness found ranged from 55 - 57 Rc mid lobe to 59 - 62 Rc near the top of the lobe. So I think the cams should be good for some time. The Burtz spec for the lobe hardness as supplied is 58-62 Rockwell C ranging from 3mm (at maximum lobe lift) to 1.5mm (at cam base diameter).

No. Duration Lift (gross) Clearance
at cam at valve
in. exh.
M-58 280 .295 .444 .010 .015 fair idle, good street

M-21 286 .298 .448 .018 .020 hot street cam


I have attached a copy of the report as issued by Nortech (the company that performed the testing) and another file showing the cams and the areas where the testing was done. There were approximately 10-15 tests done on each lobe section and then the findings were averaged. I can also note that before the nitride coating was removed the readings were lower, about 10-20 points lower, so if someone else tests they should be aware to be testing on base material.


4bangerbob,

Thanks for your post with facts (measured numbers) regarding the depth of camshaft hardening.

Your post is proof that the camshaft factory in China is meeting the drawing requirements and our new camshafts can be reground for OHV (Overhead Valve) applications like Miller, Riley, Roof, and others, and still have the needed hardness.

Last edited by Terry Burtz, Calif; 09-02-2022 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 09-02-2022, 11:22 PM   #531
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Can you confirm the material used for the cams?

John
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Old 09-03-2022, 04:55 PM   #532
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I wouldn't think .510 lift would be too much for an overhead but if they use chevy rocker arms you can get them in a 1.25 ratio which would give you .425 lift.

My 2 cents
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