Redoing Brakes

[whirnot]

I am just finishing up with the brakes on my roadster. The total was right about $1000. I sent my drums to Randy and he returned cast drums that had been trued, and shoes arched. I had done the cross shafts previously, and have the capability if rebuilding my own backing plates. (Randy will do them if you want). The emergency brake system needed almost no work, and the pedals are fine.
Ymmv.

[daveymc29]

Is the emergency brake really that? I have heard stories from the likes of Bruce Davis, "Around the World in a Model A", that they pulled the emergency handle hard and the whole assemble grabbed and followed the rotation of the wheel on one side or the other, Weren't they considered more like a hill holder or parking brake? I don't think I would rely on it to slow the car much if the main brakes fail. On the hydraulics the main shoes are applied manually if the hydraulics fail. They will stop a moving vehicle, though it get's ones body in a vulnerable state, bent over pulling the handle and trying to control the rest of the vehicle as you approach disaster. Been there, sone that and it is scarey.

[PC/SR]

The emergency brake band has about a half inch of space between a metal stop on the band and where it contacts the carrier. This has to be taken up before the brake will hold. You can get the idea by putting on the emergency brake when stopped on level ground then pushing the car back and forth and feel when it hits the carrier and stops the car. You can use it as an emergency brake, but I would use it only in a true emergency because you will get a big bang if applied while moving.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

Is the emergency brake really that? I have heard stories from the likes of Bruce Davis, "Around the World in a Model A", that they pulled the emergency handle hard and the whole assemble grabbed and followed the rotation of the wheel on one side or the other, Weren't they considered more like a hill holder or parking brake? I don't think I would rely on it to slow the car much if the main brakes fail. On the hydraulics the main shoes are applied manually if the hydraulics fail. They will stop a moving vehicle, though it get's ones body in a vulnerable state, bent over pulling the handle and trying to control the rest of the vehicle as you approach disaster. Been there, sone that and it is scarey.

Actually, that was Ford's marketing for it to a be a safer automobile. In the Parts Books, the lever inside the cabin is called the Hand Brake, -yet in later Parts books the parts making up the parking brake components were referred to as Emergency Brake parts. Remember, the first Model-As did not have 'emergency brake' parts, so it was called the Hand Brake.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

I just redid the brakes on my 30 CCPU myself and the figure of $2000 is way too high. If you are any kind of mechanic, the parts will cost you: 4 cast iron drums = $1000, 8 new brake shoes= $256 and some odd and ends= $100. Your labor is not included and that includes arcing the shoes yourself (not that complicated). My truck will now stop as good as any car with non-power assisted brakes.

I find that folks sometimes want to compare apples to oranges in hypothetical situations like this. I believe the original poster's question was " ...how much does it cost to redo your whole brake system (original way) including cast iron drums?" in which my reply was $2k was a reasonable estimate if they are doing the work themselves. The key wording that I took to heart was the whole system. Again, folks want to have great brakes but most mechanics choose to take many short-cuts to save money. Al, I am not arguing with you because you knew exactly what needed to be replaced on your truck's braking system however if we are going to restore ALL of the components back to factory specifications, -and do a quality job with quality parts, I do not believe your numbers are accurate.


I took the liberty to poll the prices of the two largest Model-A parts suppliers who in my opinion manufacture the best quality reproduction braking components. I have listed the majority of the parts that are required to restore the typical Model-A braking system. I think when most people look at this list and verify the pricing, they will see my estimate is not too far off. So we are clear, I find that most hobbyists that are rebuilding their own vehicle's brakes do NOT have all of the tools necessary to do the job correctly, and as such require assistance for restoration on certain components. Removing & installing brake drums is one such area. Most people do not have a large enough press, a lathe, nor a way to true the drums. The same can be said for accurately/correctly installing brake tracks or brake linings on shoes. Add in properly restoring a brake service brake cross-shaft or even front brake shaft components are items that make or break having quality brakes just like when the vehicle was brand new.


Now if we really want to split hairs in this debate, it is always easy to forget the incidentals that seemingly add to the cost too. For example, no one likes to factor in the cleaning supplies to clean the removed brake components, nor the costs of the masking tape & paint required to coat all of the new or restored parts, ...nor the bearing grease, or fasteners, cotter pins, and like supplies needed to do the job correctly. In addition, folks like to forget the expenses of boxing cores up for shipping (like 4 heavy brake drums & hubs, 4 brake housing plates, 8 brake shoes, etc., etc.) and then the costs of the freight for the restored cores & new parts to be returned. Again, I am not trying to step on anyone's toes or upset anyone but hopefully you will see that my answer above was based on real-world experiences and not just a fake number.


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[30 Closed Cab PU]

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Brent's and Larry's prices are for a full restore of the system. After thinking about it, the quote I received was just a "Brake Job", not a full system restore/replacement to factory specs with additional upgrades. Its a question if you're happy with good enough, or perfection.

[larrys40]

Eric, like Brent said the pills aren’t the best and multiples are discouraged.
the pins can become worn as well as the operating shaft lever cup and sometimes the brake wedge cup dished a little. The first line should be using operating rods that are to spec length and I prefer to weld up the end and shape if needed. All brake parts should be thoroughly inspected during restoration /rebuild to ensure they are up to spec. The A2042 brake adjusting shafts are often overlooked and they importance of being to spec is one of the critical components to making sure the shoes are located properly. Again , I only highlighted this as it is one more commonly overlooked. All parts should be as they were new.

Pills can be used but I only use 1 if needed.
The one pill isn’t going anywhere but the 2nd could potentially dislodge.
It goes without saying that proper restoration or replacement of all components, brakes centered and adjusted properly will give you an optimum system that will stop in a dime.
One of the older hoe to videos is How to stop in a Dime by Lloyd Kerr.
It highlights how to for a well restored system.
Larry

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Brent's and Larry's prices are for a full restore of the system. After thinking about it, the quote I received was just a "Brake Job", not a full system restore/replacement to factory specs with additional upgrades. Its a question if you're happy with good enough, or perfection.

Again, I have listed 95% of the braking components(parts), and some people might claim that many of those parts are not needed to restore the brakes on their vehicle. I am OK with that since trying to 'armchair evaluate' a system is very difficult to do without visually inspecting everything.


Ironically, some components are better suited to replace if you are paying to have someone repair it. For example, so often we find vehicles with brake rods that are bent or stretched. Can I/we repair them? Sure, ...however how much labor can we do to them yet stay under the $12.00 replacement price? Then, there will be others that do not see any issue with reusing a brake rod with a slight bend or kink in it.


I have read several "Model-A experts" suggest that a worn service brake cross-shaft bushing does not hurt anything. I still disagree with this statement. Adding to this, how many cross-shaft arm clevis pin holes are worn enough that an oversized clevis pin is still sloppy? This really is not about being a perfectionist but more about restoring it correctly. To me, this is one of the biggest issue the Model-A hobby has as a whole. Compare this same mindset to a 1930 Lincoln, and the typical Lincoln owner would never question whether "good enough" is even an option.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Brakes are glazed, it was the shops description of whatever they do to recondition them. What exactly they do I do not know.

Under certain operating conditions, the linings sometimes develop a glazed surface where they contact the drum which reduces their effectivness. It is simply a matter of roughing them up again with coarse abrasive paper (about 80 grit works well) till the glaze is taken off them.

[AL in NY]

Brent, your list looks like a parts list for a fine points car brake job, You're replacing everything but the backing plates. A close inspection of your car's working parts will find that most are reusable and if original, better than the new parts on your list. If you're working on a braking system from a totally neglected Model A, and you don't do the work yourself, $2000 is a good number. A good owner/mechanic can cut hundreds of that estimate and still end up with an excellent braking system.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

Brent, your list looks like a parts list for a fine points car brake job, You're replacing everything but the backing plates. A close inspection of your car's working parts will find that most are reusable and if original, better than the new parts on your list. If you're working on a braking system from a totally neglected Model A, and you don't do the work yourself, $2000 is a good number. A good owner/mechanic can cut hundreds of that estimate and still end up with an excellent braking system.

Actually, my experience as a professional in this hobby counters your opinion. To begin with, many items on my list would NOT be used in a Fine Points car brake job. Many reproduction items cannot be used due to being aesthetically incorrect. If you believe that list of reproduction parts is too expensive, you probably won't like the prices of NOS parts either.

And generally speaking, a close inspection of the car's working brake parts are NOT reuseable simply because they were partially worn when the vehicle was 'Restored' but were re-used anyway likely because someone was too cheap to do it correctly.

We average about 15-20 complete brake jobs a year, and Larry is probably doing close to that amount too, ...and I'd venture a guess he would agree with me that most Model-A hobbyists who are wanting to rebuild their vehicle's braking system are NOT wanting to cut corners or half-ass the job. In their minds, the previous "Restorer" has already done that and now the stress of having marginal braking has taken its toll on the owner's nerves where they just want to do it correctly where they will be the best they can be. If someone chooses to repair brakes reusing worn parts, that's their business but suggesting others to do the same is foolish, ...especially in a public forum.

[daveymc29]

I have also heard it asserted that a brake job if done correctly will start with the king pins being replaced in most instances, and the bearings. Is that a valid argument? The story is that when the brakes are applied you will be changing the load on the king pins and their bearings. I would suspect that may be, but wouldn't the same apply to the roller bearings in the rear drums? All actions seem to have some counter-action. Where do you start and stop without redoing the whole undercarriage?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

I have also heard it asserted that a brake job if done correctly will start with the king pins being replaced in most instances, and the bearings. Is that a valid argument? The story is that when the brakes are applied you will be changing the load on the king pins and their bearings. I would suspect that may be, but wouldn't the same apply to the roller bearings in the rear drums? All actions seem to have some counter-action. Where do you start and stop without redoing the whole undercarriage?

While I have never heard that, I would think that in some cases it is probably applicable. You are correct that rear axle housing races and hub bearings do play a part in having good rear brakes. Ironically, we probably find that 25% of the hubs are not re-usable due to the ID of the race area being worn or someone welded hub bolts into the hub itself. In those situations I feel it is better to replace than repair due to labor costs. Another area that is overlooked is brake shoes. There is a reason why new brake shoes are being manufactured. So often we find the brake shoe is worn in the pin holes or has an incorrect arc shape, and this affects efficient braking.

As for where do you start & stop, ...my take is you keep going to the point to make it safe if you are dealing with a 'restored' vehicle, --and if you are restoring a vehicle, then you RESTORE instead of repairing it and then telling others it restored.

[AL in NY]

Brent, I'm not getting in a pissing contest with you. If you want to spend $2000 to do a brake job, great.

[SwansEarlyFord]

Thank you Brent, as a fellow shop owner I like the way you think.

[Gene F]

I have cast drums, and redid everything. Everyone is correct, it's a lot of work. Once you have an A with cast drums, you will want them on any A you have from there out. As far as I'm concerned, spending money on the stamped drum systems is a waste of money. I had the reinforcing bands once, save your money on those, because they are not worth it.