1929 Fordor Briggs Running Again

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by GinRicky

Wow. This is one of those things I probably wouldn't have considered beforehand, but now that I've been told of the issue it seems obvious.

Research/read up by searching on here on the Barn. There are definitely some pointers. EXs: There a few oil pan blot holes on the front of the motor that are not blind, and are open to the guts of the motor. It is best to dab a little sealant like Permatex Ultra Black on those bolts to seal the bolts from seeping/dripping motor oil. Another is to get the Pan off, turn the wheels locked one way, and then the other, clearance issues. Use the cork replacement gasket, 2 types , use the standard thinner one. Pan bolt torque not to exceed 5 lbs - there is a mistake in the red Les Andrews book that specs a very high torque value.


There are many other recommendations, you woud not think so since the A seems like a simple car, but they are prone to drippage/seepage, hence the saying that "The Model A likes to mark its territory".

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Research/read up by searching on here on the Barn. There are definitely some pointers. EXs: There a few oil pan blot holes on the front of the motor that are not blind, and are open to the guts of the motor. It is best to dab a little sealant like Permatex Ultra Black on those bolts to seal the bolts from seeping/dripping motor oil. Another is to get the Pan off, turn the wheels locked one way, and then the other, clearance issues. Use the cork replacement gasket, 2 types , use the standard thinner one. Pan bolt torque not to exceed 5 lbs - there is a mistake in the red Les Andrews book that specs a very high torque value.


There are many other recommendations, you woud not think so since the A seems like a simple car, but they are prone to drippage/seepage, hence the saying that "The Model A likes to mark its territory".

All fluids save engine oil were dry when I began this. After using the old icepick ploy to expose the differential bolts (pushed so hard on some of the caked junk with my Leatherman pliers that I moved the car) I discovered a couple bolts that were half way to falling out. Tighten them all properly and lo and behold, it doesn't leak anymore. The only seepage remaining is at the oil pan, probably rear main seal to start but hardly a surprise there.

It is certainly a unique vehicle, with a number of early tech based quirks. It does not fail to impress me how much I am able to accomplish now with the wonders of the internet, including forums like this one. Back in the day we had to know someone or go to the library and hope for the best. Now, with a little proper communication and inherent base experience, I am made infinitely more capable than the old man that took some sort of a stab at the car ca 1984.

[GinRicky]

Well, I finally got to the oil after working on a '40 Buick wiper system that managed to get in my way. Pulled the oil pan drain plug and nothing came out. Pushing an allen key around in there got the old mineral oil flowing, but I was flabbergasted. I have never used that term before. It gets worse. I then pulled the valve cover off and, although it wasn't nearly as bad as the video link posted earlier in this thread, the more I dug into it the more grey material came out. Lots of grey sludge, and not a few small ferrous bits of metal. I shouldn't have run it as much as I did. I already knew that but seeing this mess... haven't yet dropped the pan. How do you secure the oil pump when the pan is dropped? I've heard NPT plug, etc. Motor still ran well but I am really dubious now as to what I will find with the pan down.

[john charlton]

When you drop the pan the oil pump will drop out with it . The oil pump is held in place by a spring attached to the bottom .The pump has to come out anyway so you can take it apart and clean especially the gauze filter screen . You will find a brass plug that is screwed into the block this is an NPT thread . There is no need to remove this when you put the pan back on it has been there for over 90 years and does not leak anyway . I loop a cable tie through the nearest pan bolt hole each side and around the backside of the pump "stalk" .Pull the cable tie tight and it will hold the pump in place . Offer up the pan and when the pan is nearly bolted up snip the cable tie and pull it clear . This saves you the bother of finding a suitable NPT plug to secure it or the funky tool the parts houses sell also cable ties are way cheaper !!! To pop out the dipper tray drop it open side down on a hard surface from shoulder height NOT concrete .It might take several goes but it will pop out .A lot of gunk will spill out so use a disposable curtain or whatever for easy capture and cleanup .

John in sunny morning Suffolk County England .

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Like indicated above, oil pump should probably come out anyway, need to clean it including the oil pump screen. If you do not want the pump to drop into the pan when removing the pan, then you can use the npt tool (or other methods) to hold it up into the block, do not over tighten the tool, and remember to swap in the slotted plug when finished.

Do not know if previously mentioned (sorry, being lazy, do not want to reread 42 posts), when you get the valve chamber cleaned out, use pipe cleaners to clean out the 3 oil passages /holes located on the back bottom of the valve chamber.


This previous thread shows where the plug is, however the screw/nut is incorrect. It is below the valve chamber cover and below the oil return tube. Read the entire string. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...retaining+plug.


Another tip to reduce the mess of using the drop method to get the dipper tray out is to put it in a or multiple garbage bags. If it is stubborn like mine was the 1st time, put a 2x4 across the oil pan opening, use a c clamp to pry it out, one side of clamp on the 2 x4 and the other side through the dipper tray oil pump opening. Another method is to use a baseball bat to pry it out. If you do a search these are the primary methods to dipper tray removal

[GinRicky]

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Well, I didn't need to bother with the dipper tray removal, as our industrial pressure washer served the purpose of cleaning beneath it rather well. Did take a brief spray of superheated oily stuff out of it which was rather unpleasant but finished it spotless with a new black paint job on the outside.


Here's a fun one, though. On the 1st run following reassembly, the engine died suddenly about 15 minutes in, just as if the ignition had been cut off. And the saga began; I mean, how difficult could that be to figure out? It's a glorified tractor/lawnmower when you get down to it. I went through everything I knew to go through, then employed the assistance of my employer, mechanical engineer and electrical wizard that he is. We went through it together exhaustively, removed, isolated and tested each component individually. Of course they all tested good by themselves. Wires, connections, grounds, swapping with a known good coil was one of the first things I did.


Both of us got to the point of near exasperation as every test we ran continued coming back good until the point of getting spark out of the thing assembled. Finally, we removed the distributor (again), broke it down to just the armored cable in the housing, and it also tested good. The lower plate tested good by itself. Now, this entire time and prior I had been conscious of not threading in the armored cable too far, and in fact this was not the issue either. I had him hold his power probe to the famous black wire coming out of the lower plate while I pushed on the armored cable contact plate with a poker...beeep!


The modern distributor upgrade I purchased complete and installed had a dummy condenser in it for original looks, which is a common thing we know that. The guy had also installed a bolt and nut in the plate (insulated on one side only) so that it would appear original from the other end of the dummy condenser as well, viewing the engine from the driver side. This lovely cosmetic addition turned out to be what the both of us had been chasing for more than a few hours. I removed that nut and bolt, reassembled, timed, yada yada, and the A was back to business as usual.

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by john charlton

When you drop the pan the oil pump will drop out with it . The oil pump is held in place by a spring attached to the bottom .The pump has to come out anyway so you can take it apart and clean especially the gauze filter screen . You will find a brass plug that is screwed into the block this is an NPT thread . There is no need to remove this when you put the pan back on it has been there for over 90 years and does not leak anyway . I loop a cable tie through the nearest pan bolt hole each side and around the backside of the pump "stalk" .Pull the cable tie tight and it will hold the pump in place . Offer up the pan and when the pan is nearly bolted up snip the cable tie and pull it clear . This saves you the bother of finding a suitable NPT plug to secure it or the funky tool the parts houses sell also cable ties are way cheaper !!! To pop out the dipper tray drop it open side down on a hard surface from shoulder height NOT concrete .It might take several goes but it will pop out .A lot of gunk will spill out so use a disposable curtain or whatever for easy capture and cleanup .

John in sunny morning Suffolk County England .

I'm a rebel so went with method #3 (my own) when reinstalling the pump and pan; I removed the NPT plug and had a man hold pressure on the pump shaft with a brass punch. Only took a moment and she was firmly in place. The pan itself was a bit of a pain for me, ended up walking it in bolt by bolt, side to side. But it's sealed, straight and true so all's well there.



For the first run I went with 4qts of 10w-40 and 1qt of motor flush. After a good 1/2 hour of running the oil on the stick still looks and feels completely fresh. Verified the pump was functioning before reinstall, of course, no issue there it pumped quite well out of those two little slits. The oil passes the finger viscosity test also, therefore I intend to allow the motor flush ample time to do what it will before I drain it. The engine needs rebuilding of course but it is still a runner and I found no more metal in it other than the few very small pieces in the valve train area. It was interesting to me how that ancient mineral oil gunk had evenly coated everything in the crankcase with a sort of grey overlay.


The cylinder walls were smooth with very light vertical striations on the surface. All the drainback passages cleared easily. As horrified as you said I would be, and I indeed was horrified and amazed, it was nowhere near as bad as the video posted earlier in this thread. There were no handfuls of gunk, fingerfuls yes. Lots of grey stuff but hey it's 91 and original. Wanted to say thanks again, your direct insight has been invaluable. As I said before, it's not necessarily something one would expect, but upon seeing it, things become instantly clarified.


The cam lobes, however, don't think I've ever seen wear quite like that. They are not worn at all at the tapered business end, but are roughened and scored closer to the base of the cam. I assume this must be normal wear; not good by any means but normal for what it is.


Also, I understand zinc is important, and was planning to use 15W-40, 4 to 1qt of Marvel. I'll run a quart of Marvel for certain, my old friend Dick who grew up working on Model A's would have it I'm sure. But I've seen the variations suggested, is 15W-40 diesel motor oil 4 parts with 1 part Marvel good in your estimation?


This is one I'm really not sure of, 1st off these cars originally had positive ground as I understand it, I do not. I don't think that is an issue, but it is stated. What I do have now after bringing it from the point when the coil wire literally broke and fell off the original FORD coil the moment I touched it, is a 6v battery, 12v coil, extant 6v gen (which incredibly seems to work), rebuilt 6v starter, modern (60s tech?) points and condenser distributor. Do I have a problem not having it fully converted to 12v? As I understand it all that would be left is the gen, starter and of course the battery. And perhaps the ayooogah, which does work also with some coaxing. Sometimes I have to tap the casing, haven't taken it apart to lube it yet, as I assume it would be in need of.

[Chris in WNC]

Regarding the distributor, I learned over the years that the original distributor setup is the most dependable and the points are easier to adjust. Get the parts from Brattons or Snyders for good quality. They will have the correct multi-strand wire from the lower plate......

[GinRicky]

My mom is trying to get a good price for it; any ideas on what would be a reasonable asking price for a '29 Fordor Briggs in "Survivor" condition?

[1930artdeco]

As far as converting it to 12v from what I understand you will need a 12v battery, 12v gen/alt, 12v starter, 12v coil. From what I read you may just want to leave it as is for now. 6v is just fine for running these cars unless you plan to drive at night.

As far as zinc goes, I would not worry to much about it. The amount of miles these cars drive per year is quite small usually and the oil should be changed every 500 miles or so anyways. You can add it but not sure the gains are worth it. As far as oil goes anything is better than what they had back then. I run 10-30/40 detergent.

Mike

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

As far as converting it to 12v from what I understand you will need a 12v battery, 12v gen/alt, 12v starter, 12v coil. From what I read you may just want to leave it as is for now. 6v is just fine for running these cars unless you plan to drive at night.

As far as zinc goes, I would not worry to much about it. The amount of miles these cars drive per year is quite small usually and the oil should be changed every 500 miles or so anyways. You can add it but not sure the gains are worth it. As far as oil goes anything is better than what they had back then. I run 10-30/40 detergent.

Mike

Additionally lamps need to be replaced with 12 V lamps, if you have an electric windshield wiper you should put in a series ballast resistor. The Horn may need a series ballast resistor.

Also you should research Zinc additives, too much added zinc can also be bad.