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01-03-2020, 04:36 PM | #1 |
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Attention distributor rebuilders!
I haven’t had to deal with bad points in some time now... but.... I’ve had 9 bad sets this week alone that came i. Our recent shipment of 35 sets. They are standard brand and given standard makes echlins points they could be at risk as well. The good news is you can spot the bad ones right out of the box. The top one in each photo is a bad one compared to a good one. Notice the sharp bend mark near the contact point on the good one compared to the smooth radius bend on the bad one. While they will setup fine, when running them on the sun machine they lack enough sprint rate causing them to miss or “bounce” at a very low RPM.
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01-03-2020, 04:52 PM | #2 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Can't really see any appreciable difference???????? Are you talking about the steel strap or the phenolic material?
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01-03-2020, 04:56 PM | #3 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Maybe this photo will help...
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01-03-2020, 05:01 PM | #4 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Yes, it's apparent now. Can you reshape the strap by hand forming or is it junk?
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01-03-2020, 05:06 PM | #5 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Yes, they can be reshaped, and I tried, but the spring steel when modified and bent around too much really gets weak afterwards.
The 21A distributor I tried them in would not go above 1900 RPMS before they points started to bounce.. After bending the springs around I could get it to 3380 rpms... Installed a good set and she ran up to 5750. This is the first time I have run into them shaped like that, and it was only a handful of them. I did not try another set of these after the first set proved it was a issue. |
01-03-2020, 05:17 PM | #6 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
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As seen on Amazon > https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Moto...ct_top?ie=UTF8
__________________
The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 Last edited by petehoovie; 01-03-2020 at 05:42 PM. |
01-03-2020, 07:25 PM | #7 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
I don’t care for these they do not have the brass ferrule for the post.
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01-03-2020, 07:29 PM | #8 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
None of the NEW points except Carpenters have the bushing. Personally I have not seen a wear issue without the bushing, and have seen many instances where the bushing becomes seized to the breaker plate if any rust occurs, given there is no lubrication on the points.. Difference of opinion I guess.
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01-03-2020, 07:36 PM | #9 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Are the bad ones "Made in China"?
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01-03-2020, 08:32 PM | #10 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
35fordtn thanks very much for that information.
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01-04-2020, 04:58 AM | #11 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Mike, Are these in a Echlin box from NAPA OR a different box??? I have noticed Standard Motor Products ( who now owns Echlin) has a couple grades of parts. The later contacts are the same issue , Standard poor quality but the Echlin quality still is good..... Just another company trying to make profits ...??
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01-04-2020, 08:47 AM | #12 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Jim,
These are the higher grade standard points FD6770. I literally can not tell a single difference visually or performance in them and the CS47’s, however if this issue continues I’ll swap. Have you run into this? |
01-04-2020, 09:02 AM | #13 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
(Intentional double post)
Michael, you do a lot of distributors therefore gather a bunch more experience on certain issues than we amateurs do. Thanks for sharing. Your mentioning point bounce and the frequency that you encounter it ... do you use a spring tension gauge? Is it a reliable indicator of point function? As a separate question, with the number of bad points that are being supplied, how do you avoid selling some of them and having to deal with come-backs? Wouldn't a roadside fruit and vegetable stand be less trouble?
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01-04-2020, 09:16 AM | #14 | |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Quote:
I mention point bounce so much as I have high expectations for ones that get sent in to me to be rebuilt. These days with the Hot Rod drags and Hill climbs and such, guys are winding these flatheads to high rpms. That and the fact that most every distributor I test that someone Built themselves has either a point bounce issue or sticky advance weights, or the initial timing is off. I likely make too big of a deal about this point bounce or double arrow on the machine but it’s the one thing that a petronix unit has over points. I’ve had comebacks on distributors as to be expected, but never on a set of points. I have a tension gauge but mostly only use it on the 32-35 distributors. I used to sell Carpenter points years ago when I first started my little business but didn’t know any better at the time. For years now I’ve sold and used the same Standard and Echlin points (I cant see the difference) with zero issues and haven’t had to “check” the ones sold until this week. Sure have learned a lot over the years reading posts from yourself and Jim Linder on here. These early v-8 and v-12 distributors just fascinate me. I don’t do and haven’t done as many as Jim so I still look forward his experiences and advice. These days most of the distributors i do are for bigger vendors that resale them. |
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01-05-2020, 11:08 AM | #15 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Thanks for the heads up Mike.
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01-05-2020, 11:58 AM | #16 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
It's amazing how much that braked crease in the spring changes the tension rate for the spring but it has a big effect from good tension to loosy goosy. A lot of Standard and Echlin stuff has been assembled in Mexico but I have no idea now. Things change quickly in this day and age. Some stuff that was changed to over the border assembly has been changed back due to quality control and slower than normal production. It depends on how heavily they invested in Mexican production.
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01-05-2020, 07:45 PM | #17 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
I talked to my inside guy at Standard today and he said.....
Most of this stuff we manufacture ourselves , but as demand falls off , we build a stock load and shut it down. In some areas where we ran out its been outsourced, and its impossible to find a reliable source for the old stuff?? Will get with the project team tomorrow for a better look. In my opinion the Echlin has always been better quality than the Standard... |
01-05-2020, 08:03 PM | #18 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Jim until I’m proven otherwise I’m convinced Standard, Echlin, And Airtex wells are all coming out of the same factory line. When the LF stationary point was not bent at a 90 angle for the short period of time the same problem was across the board amongst brands, and the spring tension seems to be the exact same amongst all three. I use echlin many times but primarily standard and just can’t find a difference
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01-05-2020, 08:23 PM | #19 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
[QUOTE=35fordtn;1838373]Jim until I’m proven otherwise I’m convinced Standard, Echlin, And Airtex wells are all coming out of the same factory line. When the LF stationary point was not bent at a 90 angle for the short period of time the same problem was across the board amongst brands, and the spring tension seems to be the exact same amongst all three. I use echlin many times but primarily standard and just can’t find a difference
We will have the answer to those questions this week, even google shows a difference from NAPA and Standard in the catalog pics....... And theres a big difference in pricing with the Standards being quite a bit cheaper........ My friend at Standard says : Echlin, AC Delco, Standard, BWD, and Duralast are all the same bulk number, coming from the same vendor. Not sure if the differences you're experiencing is an old inventory, or rebox issue. Could be the vendor has changed tooling etc ??? Last edited by BUBBAS IGNITION; 01-08-2020 at 08:16 AM. |
01-17-2020, 07:24 PM | #20 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Jim,
I this week ordered 15 sets of standard points and had to return 9 of them. Went to my local Napa and had them order In 10 sets of echlin, and luckily only had to return two of the ten sets. As you have likely experienced, the LH stationary point on both brands often needs slight bending (no big deal). Today I got in a set of WVE brand points. They seemed to fit and adjust far better than the others, however they look the same. Maybe it was luck or maybe they are better, and maybe they are made in the same plant as the others; who knows. The company is owned by NGK and has no affiliation with standard. They have the same part# as the airtex wells points which also has no affiliation with standard. The only problem is they are expensive (twice the price). I also tried a set of carpenter points and threw them in the trash before I even finished installing them. Maybe I’m over reacting like always on this recent point issue. But for some reason it’s driving me nuts Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
01-19-2020, 11:44 AM | #21 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Mike , I bought 12 sets of CS47 from my napa warehouse friday after noon and they were all the good ones .
A lot of parts folks do the re-box thing by the hundreds ...never know where they are coming from.... |
01-19-2020, 03:00 PM | #22 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
We ordered 6 sets at our shop. Only two were usable. Send them back to the seller so they know about this problem. Most, if not all, are made "offshore" today, as with other parts. You may not catch them unless the distributor is run on a machine. The strobe wheel will detect point "float" at medium to high engine speeds. If you have problems on the road, such as "missing" or reduced power, you may have these bogus sets.
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01-19-2020, 03:11 PM | #23 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
I really appreciate the work, research and technical information you guys put forth - it is a great help to others. Thank You gang!
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01-19-2020, 03:16 PM | #24 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Man , that must be the problem of the last two spare dist I ran up on my machine,they would miss fire above 3000 rpm ,I will now strip them and check the spring pressure on the points.
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01-19-2020, 05:52 PM | #25 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Jim I ordered five sets of echlin, five of standard, and five of those WVE points. Those WVE points were rather impressive but then again I only tried one set. I’ll report back next week on how they all turn out
As a side note I retried the carpenter points. They took a bit of work in bending the tension springs and stationary points. They performed but only just ok. For some reason with the carpenter points I had to advance the timing slider almost all the way just to get the initial timing correct. |
01-20-2020, 12:23 AM | #26 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/26366363160...m=263663631600 Last edited by 35fordtn; 01-20-2020 at 12:30 AM. |
01-20-2020, 01:01 AM | #27 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
thank you for your persistence, and keeping us informed.
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01-20-2020, 12:33 PM | #28 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
Thought I'd chime in here. I've written a lot about points in the V-8 Times over the years, and like so many other things in life, the information keeps changing! I have a coffee can filled with old points I removed over the years. It's interesting to see the differences in the various brands. But see the photo. The TOP points are what Michael Driskell sells. Sharp bend near the contact as he stated in a post. These are excellent. The bottom one has the smooth curved strap which according to posts is a "bad" set. But guess what make the bottom one is? FORD, made in USA! I will say however that the tension on the Ford brand is just about the same as Michael's. I found quite a few old sets that had the bad curve—some had what seems like good tension and some were pretty weak. So the discussion goes on. Look what you started Henry!
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01-20-2020, 05:14 PM | #29 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
I find this all very interesting and relevant. It is bigger than just the issues with the points. I can say I'm getting really tired of all the inferior stuff from off-shore. I think they are just laughing at us all the way to the bank. Just take a look at the skyline of Shanghi from 1987 to 2013. Rant over...
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/20...nd-now/100569/ |
01-23-2020, 08:27 PM | #30 |
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Re: Attention distributor rebuilders!
I really gave this whole situation a test today..
I order 5x of the following points and isntalled them on the same distributor and made notes of each and compared them to NOS and NORS points... I ordered in five sets of Echlin CS47, Standard FD6770, and WVE (wells) 4P1599 Of the five set of standards two I returned without installling due to the previous issues mentioned in this post. None of the WVE or Echlin points were returned this go around as all looked great. Now to the nitty gritty..... Tests on the Sun Machine Standard FD6770... required minor bending of the LH stationaary point to set up. Point float at 5250 engine RPM's (2625 dist rpm's) Echlin CS47 set up fine, 6120 Engine rpms before point float WVE 4P1599 Set up fine 6510 before point float NOS Ford points set up fine 3125 RPMS before point float Borg Warner NORS points set up fine 3910 RPM's before point float Nimco NORS points set up fine 6840 RPm's before point float Carpenter points Required excessive bending of the stationary points to set up.. 3410 RPMS point float All in all Nimco was the winner, but old stock stuff that is hard to find. .. As far as NEW, WVE (wells) and Echlin are the clear winner. This test honestly confused me as Echlin is owned and made by Standard.. I have always used Standard until the recent issues and looks like Echlin and WVE will be my go to from here on out.. For a side note Standard makes Echlin points, but WVE is a totally different entity. |
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